The Boston Celtics have had their Media Day and training camp early to facilitate their preseason exhibitions in Abu Dhabi later this week, but they have done so with a few notable shadows hanging over the storied ball club. The more imminent and tangible of those two shadows comes in the shape of Karl-Anthony Towns having been dealt from the Minnesota Timberwolves to the New York Knicks.
The other of the two is more phantasmal and harder to pin down, simply due to the ephemeral and volatile nature of the moving pieces involved. That would be the pending sale of the team we just learned more about through a recent article from the Boston Globe's Adam Himmelsbach. Just how much are these twin specters making their presence known to the Celtics at training camp?
To get to the bottom of this question, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast linked up with the "Garden Report" podcast host and Celtics beat writer Bobby Manning to get a feel about where these issues register among the players and coaching staff ahead of the start of their title defense. Both loom large in very different ways as potential barriers to Banner 19, but is it too early for either to impact the Celtics?
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The other of the two is more phantasmal and harder to pin down, simply due to the ephemeral and volatile nature of the moving pieces involved. That would be the pending sale of the team we just learned more about through a recent article from the Boston Globe's Adam Himmelsbach. Just how much are these twin specters making their presence known to the Celtics at training camp?
To get to the bottom of this question, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast linked up with the "Garden Report" podcast host and Celtics beat writer Bobby Manning to get a feel about where these issues register among the players and coaching staff ahead of the start of their title defense. Both loom large in very different ways as potential barriers to Banner 19, but is it too early for either to impact the Celtics?
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SportsTranscript
00:00All righty, welcome to the Celtics Podcast brought to you by PrizePix, the exclusive
00:12fantasy basketball partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:15Run your game with PrizePix.
00:16It's also brought to you by GameTime Tickets, Lessman's Tickets, lowest price guaranteed.
00:20I'm Cameron Tepp-Dubai.
00:21I'm your host.
00:22I'm joined by Dr. Justin Quinn, and I can't believe I'm allowed to say this, and by Alex
00:27Goldberg.
00:28He just came from off tour.
00:29The Celtics and Divine Sweater are on tour.
00:31They're going to Raleigh, North Carolina later this week.
00:33So if you liked our intro music, that's Divine Sweater.
00:36You didn't even know you were a fan.
00:37Now you do.
00:38We're going to welcome in our guest, who is Bobby Manning, our brother in arms over at
00:43CLNS.
00:44Bobby, you have like five different NBA hats that you wear.
00:48Do you want to just like tell us your resume real quick?
00:50Yeah.
00:51Garden Report, you know it, you love it.
00:55CLNS Media covering the Celtics, Celtics blog, as well as Boston Sports Journal every
01:00Saturday.
01:01Yeah, there you go.
01:04It's a lot of hard work to cover the Boston Celtics, and Bobby has quadrupled his work.
01:10Bobby, we're not here to shower you with praise.
01:14We're here to talk about what's going on in the Eastern Conference.
01:16We're here to talk about what's going on with the possible sale of the Boston Celtics, what's
01:21going on with ESPN.
01:22And then in the lab portion of the programming, did the cat trade change our opinions on Training
01:29Camp for the Celtics?
01:30So what did we learn from Training Camp for the Celtics, and did that change at all with
01:33a slightly different Eastern Conference?
01:36So that is a rundown, and it's important that I did that because listeners to this podcast
01:40will know that I'm in an ongoing battle with my Wi-Fi, and the Wi-Fi struck and struck
01:46hard today, so I could drop out at any moment.
01:49So at least everyone knows where you're going, even if you just fall apart.
01:54Okay.
01:55I'm going to do the cat news in a little bit as that, because the Celtics sale, we didn't
02:03get really new news here, but Adam Himmelsbeck of Boston Globe reported something that we
02:09knew was coming, that the books have been readied, and the bankers are working with
02:14the Grouse Becks to contact interested parties and parties they think might be interested
02:20in buying their majority stake of the Celtics.
02:22Bobby, our guest, where are you at with the sale of the Celtics, and do you have any wish
02:29lists for who might put their hat in the ring?
02:33Yeah, it's a big deal.
02:35I think it's a bigger deal than many people are making it out to be because of the impending
02:40massive payroll.
02:41You wonder if that's playing a role in any hesitancy buyers might have.
02:45I thought the interesting part of that report is that there's been multiple interested parties
02:51and people that they see as good candidates to fill it.
02:56The names out there so far, obviously Pagliuca makes sense.
03:00Fenway doesn't seem like it.
03:02Sam Kennedy was actually talking today and downplayed it a little bit, although in my
03:07view it was more, I don't want to talk about this today, then we're not doing it, but there's
03:10obviously been reporting on that front that that doesn't make sense for them at this time,
03:15and Henry's that is such in the globe.
03:17I would definitely cross that one off for now at the very least, especially with their
03:21Vegas interest that's been pretty noted, and then Bezos I've heard as well as others have
03:28that that's not in the cards.
03:30That's the kind of one I think you wish for, the kind of guy who would easily be able to
03:34cover this tab coming up for next year at the very least.
03:39If it's not him, someone else who's capable of at least maintaining it for that extra
03:43year in 2026.
03:45I know it's going to change hands by the end of the year, at least the majority stake here.
03:50So we should know pretty soon who the frontrunner is.
03:52I know you've been in a few of the Availabilities Cam, it feels like Pagliuca has been around
03:57quite a bit.
03:58I know he's talking to Joe after his availability and so he's made himself a pretty visible
04:02face despite declining comment for non-disclosure reasons and all that.
04:09So we haven't heard too much from him, but he's the only guy we know in the mix.
04:14And it's good, there's continuity there.
04:17You're probably talking about many of the same faces from this current group staying
04:21around, including maybe Wick in some capacity.
04:24But you get to the money at that point and you're like, can they maintain this payroll
04:29beyond this season?
04:30And it does connect pretty well to Towns because I know we're going to talk about that
04:35a little later, but the biggest thing that stood out to me that no one mentioned when
04:38they did that trade is that that was a money deal, that was a tax deal, that was a second
04:44apron deal.
04:45And I feel like the most expensive teams this year, Celtics included said, yeah, these issues
04:51are coming with maintaining our roster, but we're just going to stand pat and wait until
04:55we absolutely have to do something here.
04:57Because no one made a major second apron tax trade this summer until that Towns trade.
05:03I guess I would push back and say that the nuggets ditching KCP felt like getting ahead
05:08of the curve.
05:09No, I mean a trade.
05:10We get off salary.
05:11Yeah.
05:12Yeah.
05:13And that's probably going to be the way most teams handle it, is just letting guys go when
05:15the time comes.
05:16But in terms of a guy who's making 30, 40, 50 million, who you just have to get off your
05:21books, I was like, all right, what's that going to look like this summer?
05:24And we just saw it.
05:25And now fast forward a year from now, and the Celtics are going to be facing 500 million
05:29in payroll slash tax.
05:32That's what it's going to look like.
05:33I think you have this great, great player who you really want to keep.
05:36Can you get a player who's 80% of that?
05:39Can you get a piece for the future?
05:41You know, another good young player who's cost controlled.
05:44Can you get a pick?
05:45They obviously got Detroit pick in that trade.
05:47So that's coming unless you're getting a Bezos style guy.
05:51That's why this is so important, because I don't think Peg Luca, I don't think any
05:56average owner is going to be able to maintain the kind of luxury tax that the Celtics did
06:00here because look at what just happened to the Warriors, look at what just happened to
06:03the Clippers.
06:04I know the Suns hung on with Ishbia a little bit here, but their time's coming as well
06:08in the near future, I'd assume.
06:10So Minnesota doing that, I think is a strong signal of what's to come for the Celtics,
06:14almost regardless of who the owner is going to be.
06:16Yeah, it was interesting on the Hoop Collective, they were talking about the litigation for
06:22who is going to own the Timberwolves.
06:24And Windhorse mentioned that the A-Rod, Glenn Taylor, Michael Bloomberg group, there's one
06:29other name attached to that, they proudly have $900 million in escrow, as in they have
06:33money on the sideline to pay for this team.
06:36So first of all, that tells you something about where Tim Connelly is at, like he's
06:41not sure that that group is going to end up owning this team, because in theory, they
06:44have the money to keep it afloat.
06:47Well, my understanding is that Taylor is in charge of the team right now, which tells
06:52you-
06:53Oh, not Glenn Taylor, the other group, sorry.
06:54So the A-Rod et al. group has hundreds of million dollars on the sideline ready to rock,
06:59sorry.
07:00No, but I'm saying that as far as like the cheaping out, if that's what's really happening,
07:04which I think we all tend to agree that that is the case, that it is Taylor who's calling
07:08the shots.
07:09And I mean, we can talk about this more later, but the tiered nature of that sale is something
07:14we should talk about in regards to Boston as well.
07:16I want to ask you about that, Justin, but what I was going to say is, so this group
07:20of big league, big cheese billionaires, one of their selling points is, look, we have
07:26this money sitting on the sideline.
07:27It would only keep the Celtics afloat for like two and a half seasons.
07:31So just like the amount of financial obligation for whoever steps up to buy this team, if
07:37they want it to look anything like its current construction, is a phenomenal upfront payday
07:42to say nothing of like actually buying the team.
07:45Justin, the reporting that we got from Himmelsbeck is that the, the plan of having Wick stay
07:52on as the governor through 2025, and then when the sale finalizes in 2028 is still something
07:59they're hoping for.
08:01It's not impossible, I guess the Mavericks are showing us that it sort of can be done,
08:06but Justin, do you have any sense in either direction that that kind of weird handing
08:12of the torch is still in play, other than Himmelsbeck said it is in play?
08:17We had Josh Cosman, who wrote the New York Post, co-wrote the New York Post article.
08:21He made a point of saying that Wick can ask for that, that does not mean that Wick is
08:25going to get that.
08:27And even if he does get that, I think the dynamics of who is buying the team is going
08:31to have a lot to do with how that ends up manifesting, no matter how this plays out.
08:37If for example, PAGS has some kind of angel investor lined up, let's just say for the
08:43sake of it, that the Mohegan Sun Casino wants to expand on owning the Connecticut Sun and
08:51add something else to their repertoire and could get an agreement to build a casino with
08:55a hotel complex, right?
08:57That would be the kind of thing that could make sense.
08:59And I wouldn't be surprised if that is the plan, but right now, and it said in that Himmelsbeck
09:03piece, that very little detail about potential buyers that do exist is known.
09:10Knowing Himmelsbeck, if one of them was one of the aforementioned people we've been hearing
09:13rumbles about that have since been shut down, I think we would know by now.
09:17So there very well may be one or several potential buyers already lined up to compete for this,
09:24as well as others.
09:26This caught my attention in the Himmelsbeck piece, you always have to mine his pieces
09:29for little details, that the banks are also reaching out to potential buyers as well.
09:35So we might see some other names emerge that haven't even been part of the process yet.
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10:31Cameron, I have a question for you.
10:34If hypothetically, you bought a nice car, would you go and show that car off to all
10:42of your new friends with your nice car by getting the previous owner of the car to come
10:48out and show off the great car that they sold?
10:51No.
10:53Well, I also would have let my son.
10:56And just to be clear, this is exactly what the deal is with the Celtics team sale.
11:00Witt Grosbeck can say all he wants about how he's going to be involved as a governor, he's
11:04going to be involved in team decision making, etc, etc.
11:07The moment that the check gets signed and somebody else owns the team, they are going
11:11to be out front and center as the new owner of the team.
11:14And Witt Grosbeck will get nice courtside seats for the rest of his life.
11:17That is the extent to which he is going to be involved in Celtics.
11:21He can talk as much as he wants about how he wants to be a part of the team, he wants
11:25to be a part of the operations.
11:27As soon as the check is signed, he is out the door, whether it's by his choice or by
11:31the new owners.
11:32It's just not going to happen.
11:33Yeah.
11:34And with all due respect, as we've come to realize with this percentage ownership of
11:39the team, which I think has been reported at like two or three, right?
11:43He's effectively served as the face of the team, and I'm sure it has a heavy hand in
11:47decision making.
11:49But at the end of the day, it was always going to be his father who had to cash the checks,
11:54who had to be able to pay for this team.
11:57And according to the post-reporting, as you guys dug into there, it was his decision at
12:03the end of the day over this payroll, over where this thing's going, to move on.
12:07So that's the difficult part right now.
12:10And it does make me think, and I haven't done a ton of reporting on this, but with Seattle
12:14coming up, with Vegas coming up, as we mentioned in the case of Fenway, what's that balance
12:21like for people who want a team?
12:23Do you want a Seattle?
12:24Do you want a Vegas?
12:25Where there's obviously a huge, maybe Celtic-sized even, expansion fee, no revenue sharing for
12:31a certain amount of time.
12:32I don't know what amount of time that is specifically, but you do go a number of years without revenue
12:36sharing.
12:37But such lower costs, especially where you're going to have a limited salary cap in those
12:41situations and expansion players who are obviously much cheaper than what the Celtics
12:45have on their roster right now.
12:47But you're building up a fan base, you're building up, I guess Seattle has an arena,
12:52but Vegas, who knows what you have to do there in terms of establishing one.
12:55But the other factor here is Boston, if you're buying this team and you want to get the most
12:59out of it money-wise, you probably do need to start to roll, get the ball rolling on
13:03an arena, whether it's in a casino place or downtown or wherever it might be.
13:09So it's a big process.
13:11And I think they're in such a unique position with the payroll, with how expensive the team
13:17is in terms of the price they're looking for, plus probably having to finance a stadium
13:22on your own.
13:23I don't know how Boston would get involved there, Massachusetts, but can't imagine they'd
13:27be offering a significant portion of that stadium.
13:32It's going to be massively expensive.
13:34And there's just such a short list, I'd have to imagine, of guys who are willing to buy
13:40into that kind of cost, especially up front.
13:43You're probably going to have to finance the salary on this roster.
13:46I know the New York Post is saying they're taking losses right now, and the losses are
13:50going to grow over the next few seasons here.
13:52So that's why this is so big.
13:55Who's going to take on this payroll?
13:58Who's going to embrace the kind of salaries you have on this roster right now?
14:02And it is amazing to me because one thing I've talked about with John on our show a
14:06little bit, and he knows from over the years, usually when you're going to sell a team,
14:10you downsize, you get salaries off the books, you make it affordable for whoever's going
14:15to be coming in here.
14:17They did the opposite here and extended everybody and signed two super maxes and bought into
14:22unprecedented tax here.
14:24And that's going to make this difficult to sell, I feel like.
14:26I know there's a lot of hope and reporting here that they're going to get this done quickly,
14:30but I just don't see the names and excitement lining up right here.
14:33In fact, it's the opposite.
14:34All the names you're tossing around are like, I don't know.
14:37I don't think we're going to do this.
14:39To your point, and also re-emphasizing why it's important to really mine these Himmelsback
14:45pieces for details, the initial reports we were hearing were historic rates around $6
14:50billion.
14:51Now we're hearing in the report above $5 billion, which I think is lining up with what you're
14:56talking about.
14:57Right.
14:58Yeah.
14:59It could even be lower than that, considering like, oh, I got to build an arena.
15:03I got to split with the Bruins, that sort of thing.
15:06You might spend $7 billion, but that might be your bartering position to ask for a $4
15:12billion selling price.
15:15And the one advantage they do have obviously here is that they're the Celtics.
15:19If you want to buy a team, if you want to buy one of the premier teams in the world
15:23and have that status and be a champion contender right away, you're paying a premium on that.
15:29But you have the opportunity to do that.
15:31And it's obviously a once in a lifetime opportunity.
15:33So that's why when Bezos's name came out, I know everyone connects him with Seattle
15:36and all that.
15:37I'm like, oh, it makes some sense because if you're Bezos and you want to buy any team
15:40and you don't have money's no option there, this is the kind of team you would want.
15:45So that's the one advantage they have going from each other, but in terms of an investment,
15:49which unfortunately more and more owners seem to be viewing this as, it's not a great one.
15:54Whoever is going to buy the Celtics is, I would assume, planning to buy them for what
15:59they're going to be worth in 2035, not what they're going to be worth in 2045 in the case
16:05of the Grousebacks, right?
16:06So 20 years.
16:07Well, that's the other question here.
16:08Like, where is sports going?
16:09Where is the NBA going?
16:11They got this massive TV deal where you're wondering, are people even watching on TV,
16:16cable, that sort of thing?
16:17Is that going to age well?
16:18And you know, WIC and this group bought this team at $300 million and it balloons to whatever
16:23billion they're going to sell it here to.
16:24But are the Celtics going to be worth $10 billion, $15 billion in 20, I don't know.
16:29Like where's this league going growth wise?
16:32Where's the money coming from over the long term?
16:34Like you just think it's going to keep growing and growing and growing, but you don't know.
16:37And the price is just so, like the one thing WIC did and Henry did and some of these other
16:42owners who got in there in the 2000s is they got these franchises when they're at such
16:45a low and it's the opposite climate now where these are just massive, massive evaluations
16:51where if you're viewing it as an investment, I don't think you're getting in on this to
16:55make money.
16:56You're getting in on this to win and have fun and blow money.
16:59Hey, and speaking of investing in a low, we got to talk about some development.
17:04No, no, no.
17:05We need to talk about the people who invested in our podcast and do an ad read.
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18:11Alex, that was a professional segue.
18:14Before we do that, I just, there's nothing smart to say.
18:17Takembe Mutombo passing leaves a titanic hole in the NBA community.
18:22What he did on the court was incredible, but what he did off the court was even better
18:26and smarter.
18:27People have written and spoken about that.
18:29So find time to learn more about Takembe Mutombo today or tomorrow.
18:34Just quickly on the sale thing, I will say that I made a joke about the sale to PR team
18:38at training camp, but they did not like the joke at all.
18:42Bobby is right.
18:43It's a big, this is a big deal.
18:46If it feels like a rain cloud for the players or for the front office, they would be entitled
18:52to that.
18:53And I don't think the players, Joe, any of them can even realize how big of an impact
18:57it's going to have.
18:58And how can you?
18:59You can't forecast what it's going to change, but if you own the team, you have the power
19:02to change anything you want at that point.
19:05On that happy note, speaking of, if you own the team, Disney came down and said, Zack
19:14Lowe, thank you for your service.
19:16And Zack Lowe doesn't work at ESPN anymore.
19:19This podcast is going to be about training camp and I want to get to that.
19:23Let's try to only spend a few minutes on this, but Bobby, we wanted your thoughts and I think
19:27we all have a few thoughts.
19:30Just like either shout out Zack Lowe or do you think ESPN made a shrewd move or a bad
19:34move or just what are you thinking about this?
19:36Because Zack Lowe is that big of a deal.
19:39Yeah, it was definitely puzzling, shocking.
19:41I was listening to his J.J. interview on the way into practice that morning and then
19:44walked in and I think Soichi told me that it happened.
19:48And not stunning, right, because you're not shocked by anything happening in the industry
19:54anymore at this point, especially there, where they just seem to have no clue where they're
19:57going in terms of the direction of coverage.
20:00But if there's anyone who would at least surprise you, it would have been him and there's no
20:05doubt he's going to catch on.
20:06I don't know if it's going to be this year, maybe he takes a year off and regroups or
20:11whatever, but there'll be plenty of opportunities for him with new, I know everyone assumes
20:16Ringer, but there's also new television partners and stuff like that.
20:20So I don't think there's any doubt he's going to end up back in the game at some point.
20:23But for a company that has reinvested in TV rights, it is stunning to let go of one of
20:32the best reporters, writers, you name it, in the industry now.
20:37He's obviously someone I've been a regular listener.
20:38I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, he's obviously always on the list, the writing
20:44ridiculous, and an inspiration in many ways to a lot of the stuff I do.
20:49I love toying around with film, love diving into the game on a deeper level, and he, among
20:54others, are guys who taught you how to do that for years and years and years now.
20:58I met him briefly, gave me his number at one of the practices, I think he even said he
21:05read my work at one point, which was like, whoa.
21:08So yeah, great guy, and the few interactions I've had with him.
21:12I don't know him super well, but you feel like you know him from just listening and
21:16reading and all that stuff, and the passion just flows through.
21:18So yeah, that was tough.
21:20And hopefully, for all of our sake, we're all fans of the game and fans of his, he's
21:25back sooner rather than later.
21:27Yeah.
21:28Zach Lowe, if you want to have a part time podcasting gig, if you're interested, feel
21:34free to send us a message over here at Celtics Lab, we'd love to have you.
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22:51Justin, you and I have been chewing the fat about like what this means for the industry
22:55and for the worldwide leader.
22:58Do you have any new thoughts or refined thoughts?
23:00I mean, with every decision that can be a problem for some people comes opportunities
23:05for others.
23:06And I think that it's pretty clear that ESPN is pivoting toward the entertainment side
23:11of coverage.
23:12And that's fine.
23:13There's nothing wrong with that because that opens up opportunities for people in other
23:16outlets and other situations to provide the coverage they are not.
23:19So that's all I have to say about that.
23:21Yeah, Bobby, I'll just echo what you said.
23:24I've also only met Zach here and there, but in the middle of the finals, I was like, hey,
23:29I know you used to be a teacher.
23:30Like, can I ask you about that transition?
23:32And he gave me a lot of his time.
23:34He was really sincere.
23:36A few years before he saw my name badge, he's like, oh, I recognize the name.
23:39And I was like, that's very polite of you to say, I know that's not true.
23:43Yeah, he just he, Bobby, you said something at All Star once where you're like, you know,
23:48I don't I don't like saying so and so's a good guy, because I don't I haven't really
23:51met that person.
23:52How could I vouch for their character?
23:54That really stuck with me.
23:55Actually, I think I've mentioned on this podcast before.
23:57So I don't know Zach well enough to vouch for his character, but I really enjoy the few
24:02interactions I've had with him.
24:03And as a fan, I mean, yeah, there are a few people I look up to more than Zach Lau.
24:09Anyways, let's let's do what we were supposed to do this entire episode.
24:13Bobby, I was at a little bit of training camp.
24:15You were at Media Day and training camp.
24:17Yeah. Yep.
24:18Cool, cool, cool. So let's let's hop into the Celtics lab.
24:22So let's put on our safety goggles and our lab coats and whatnot.
24:25And let's just do kind of like takeaways and what by way of training camp you're looking
24:30for in the early parts of the preseason.
24:33And if the cat trade kind of changed anything we have in our notes, did they talk about
24:37it? I think Horford was asked briefly and he didn't he gave a nothing burger answer.
24:41So no one was on the record really talking about it.
24:44But Bobby, yeah, what were your major takeaways from training camp?
24:47Yeah, that's one of the things that caught my attention, and that goes back to last
24:52year's, they're always going to pay attention themselves more than the competition and what
24:55moves other teams made, stuff like that.
24:56That's a Joe thing for sure.
24:58And you go down the list.
24:59I thought players reflected a lot of Joe isms through their commentary.
25:04Drew Holiday was repeating some stuff he said about, you know, some people are going to
25:08think you're the greatest coming off the title.
25:10Some people are going to think you still suck.
25:11Easiest run ever, all that stuff.
25:14So they're just trying to keep stuff internal in terms of the perception of that run.
25:18And I do think that there's a high level of cautiousness among Joe, among Brad, that,
25:27yes, they did everything right, everything they needed to last year.
25:30That doesn't mean it's automatically going to happen this year.
25:34So they've been just stressing hard.
25:35Same level of sacrifice as a year ago, while also noting we might have to do things
25:41differently. So you got to keep an open mind to, you know, we drilled all this different
25:45stuff last year in terms of how we're going to win a year ago.
25:48Now we might have to pivot on some of that.
25:50And obviously Porzingis absence plays into that.
25:52But it might also just be other stuff that happens this year.
25:54A couple of guys going out the door who were decent pieces for them and, you know,
25:58different guys, younger guys, maybe even trying to fill in there.
26:01So those are the things I'm looking for.
26:02It's tough to highlight a ton of big, big stories.
26:05I'm so sick of talking about the stupid Olympic thing.
26:09And hopefully that's finally over.
26:12I mean, that leaked in and Tatum had some interesting stuff to say about it, but that
26:16was like a six to eight week story just because nothing else is going on and now stuff's
26:20finally going on. So I'm excited to see some of the young guys.
26:23I'm really excited about Shireman, who I think can contribute right away when there's
26:26some shorthanded moments.
26:28I think what they have at center is going to be interesting and they have some capable
26:32guys to fill in on the depth there.
26:34But they are probably one injury away from having some trouble at that spot and probably
26:38have to go look at some smaller lineups and things of the like.
26:42But in terms of what Joe's emphasizing, a lot of similar stuff last year on the court
26:47and off the court.
26:49But he just keeps noting over and over again that could change.
26:51Let's see how other teams around the league attack us.
26:54Let's see how, you know, trends around the league develop.
26:57I think back to one thing he said last year, you know, he was always about three point
27:00volume, three point volume, three point volume.
27:03And last year he started to shift away from that a little bit.
27:05He was saying, all right, there's some teams that are, you know, Indiana and the likes
27:08just trying to jack up threes like crazy just to get the volume going the other way.
27:11And when teams try to do that against us, you know, we might have to go through some
27:15other emphasis. So, you know, he keeps a careful eye on that, obviously.
27:19But a lot of the talk's been mental and, you know, just approach rather than we're doing
27:25X, Y and Z this year.
27:26And here's who's going to play these minutes and that stuff.
27:29I want to ask you about your conversation with Lonnie Walker, but just a follow up to
27:33that. Do you believe so sometimes you ask Joe a question and he gives you an answer
27:39about attitude and then they turn the cameras off and then he gives you like an
27:43insanely specific answer about X's and O's.
27:46So do you believe that he's just getting better at that kind of media shtick or do you
27:51think that he really is thinking in broader strokes right now?
27:56I think he's big on mindset, and I think this team, this organization realizes that last
28:01year they won, yeah, because they had the most talent, they had great players, all that
28:06stuff. But they've had that in the past and didn't win.
28:09So it came down to sacrifice, doing all the right things day in and day out.
28:15Brad even, you know, Brad has had a few comments this summer.
28:17He usually doesn't say stuff that makes you perk up.
28:19But, you know, in the Globe and other places and even at Media Day, he's like, yeah,
28:23everything's great. But game start, roles change, all of a sudden teams can start
28:29splitting apart. And I'm just like, their intent is up to something here because and I
28:35think Joe has said as such, every champion over the last, what, five, six years here has
28:39lost the next year and they've lost early.
28:41You know, he's gone back and looked at that and he's trying to figure out why does that
28:44happen? You know, what doesn't carry over from year to year?
28:47And I think there's some specific cases for many of those teams.
28:50I mean, you go back to the Raptors, they lost Kawhi, you know, that's going to happen.
28:54But I think they're just realizing there could be some intangible things that don't allow
29:01what we saw last year to carry over.
29:03And they've been very careful to make sure and let this group know, you got to do all
29:07that stuff again after you won.
29:10And, you know, I think another interesting thing Joe talked about, too, was that they're
29:13trying to establish some stuff for the long term, like they want to go into this year and
29:17win a championship. But it's about sustaining a championship run beyond this year as much
29:24as it is going back to back at all costs here.
29:28So, you know, it's interesting back to some of the ownership talk, like one thing you
29:34don't hear that I do think should be part of the motivation, too, is that who knows how
29:38long this team is going to be together?
29:40Yeah. And I think it's hard to insert that as the coach.
29:43I think it's definitely hard to insert that as the GM.
29:45I know Brad's commentary is that we're going to do whatever it takes.
29:48We're going to sign all these deals.
29:49We're going to keep these guys here.
29:50So I think it's hard to insert that motivation here.
29:54But I think that should be understood among everybody here is that we'd love to have a
29:59long window. We'd love to have many different chances to win this.
30:01But this year is super important.
30:03Once again, I'm going to push back.
30:06Sorry, I'm just going to push back on that a tiny bit, only in the sense that I agree
30:10with everything you're saying.
30:11But I do think from a coaching mindset, Missoula doesn't want these guys to think about
30:18anything other than the next game that they're playing.
30:21And my sense is that while that is going to be something lingering in the background,
30:27and I have no doubt it's going to come up over the course of the season multiple times,
30:31knowing the way that Missoula approaches the game, I would be pretty surprised if he
30:37isn't making a deliberate effort to really get people to focus on basketball only.
30:43And I guess I'm curious, you know, looking at camp, like, have you seen any sort of
30:47discussion that isn't specifically in the context of what does this team need to do
30:53to be the best version of itself?
30:57No, it's been a lot of internal focus, and I think getting in the best shape, the
31:04conditioning, all that kind of stuff ended up being a big focus week one.
31:07So I think in terms of, you know, what they're going to do from X's and O's standpoint,
31:11that's going to develop into the preseason and regular season too, especially given that
31:15they don't have Porzingis early on.
31:16I think they're starting to talk about some of that stuff and think about how the offense
31:21is going to look differently.
31:22And the defense certainly too is going to have to change a little bit without Porzingis
31:25out there.
31:26But one thing they've been excited about is the opportunity.
31:29And there'll be opportunity.
31:30Horford's going to rest here and there.
31:32I'm sure there's going to be a prioritization on scaling back minutes at different points.
31:36Joe got asked that at one point and said that they don't fully have a plan in terms of the
31:41minutes and all that kind of stuff.
31:42But I think it's understood that you're not playing Horford 30 minutes a game during the
31:46regular season.
31:47You're not playing Brown and Tatum upwards of 40 to get by.
31:50You're going to start to mix in some of these younger guys and some people who haven't
31:53played as much in the past.
31:54So I'm looking forward to the preseason in that sense, because so much of the talk's
31:59mindset right now, so much of the talk is just what they need to do and what they need
32:03to focus on.
32:04I actually want to see what this is going to look like from a basketball perspective
32:08right now, because the depth here is going to be important.
32:11And I think depth is still something they have an advantage on the rest of the league
32:14on. I mean, they went 4 and 0 in games last year where Porzingis and Horford didn't play
32:18both of them. You got the 31 and 5 or whatever it was when Porzingis was out.
32:23And I know Jalen made that joke and it was true.
32:26You go against Detroit and you sit everybody and Pritchard goes out there and scores 30
32:30and you beat Detroit.
32:32So they were able to do that so decisively and methodically last year that that's what
32:37allowed them to win the East by 14 games.
32:39So if you can do that again, you're going to get through the regular season fairly
32:42easily. But it's going to take a lot of repeat performances by Pritchards and Hauses and
32:46Cornets of the world.
32:47It's going to take some guys like Shireman, Keita, those being the two I'm looking at
32:52specifically on the nights where you're missing multiple guys to be able to get by.
32:56And those guys are important from a development standpoint, too, if you're not going to be
32:59able to keep the team together long term.
33:02Do you know who does not currently have as much depth as they very recently did that I
33:08think we should talk about? The New York Knicks.
33:12Yeah. How are we feeling about this trade in terms of how it's actually going to play
33:18out when these two teams play?
33:20Can I go first because I might have to drop early.
33:24It's a great trade for Minnesota.
33:26Carl Anthony Towns is a really good player.
33:28He's not a winning player.
33:30He's and he's been an oft injured player.
33:33And the boxing gloves getting put on the core of Ant Edwards, Jaden McDaniels and Nas Reed
33:39for a mid market team is so much more important to maintain than pretending like Rudy
33:43Gobert and Carl Anthony Towns fit.
33:46It was a it's a beautiful segue that allows them the flexibility to reestablish the right
33:52core around Ant.
33:53And yes, they went to the Western Conference finals last year.
33:56The West is so loaded that if you run the simulation 100 times, I don't know that that
34:01happens more than 10 times.
34:03I'm not saying it was a fluke.
34:03I'm just saying they live in a crowded neighborhood.
34:05And by doing this, they got off of what is too much money for Carl Anthony Towns.
34:10They get back two good players.
34:12Randall could be an expiring, could be an attractive trade piece.
34:15DiVincenzo is a sniper and an unbelievable fit next to Ant.
34:19And this is a this is a move that allows the Timberwolves to be a good to very good team
34:24for five or six years rather than perhaps a very good team for two or three years.
34:30Because this was a financial house of cards that was buckling at the knees.
34:35And now suddenly they're a little bit deeper, a little bit more flexible.
34:39And the timeline makes sense.
34:42Counterpoint.
34:45What is going to happen at midseason when Julius Randall has to come off the bench
34:50because it's very clear to everyone that Nazarene is better than him?
34:54I mean, he has to come back to New York.
34:56There's an important there's an important issue as well, namely that we have seen
35:02that Randall tends to struggle when the ball is not in his hands
35:05and it's not going to be in his hands at any point.
35:09Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying, Cam.
35:12I think the the idea that paying towns that much money, like getting off that salary
35:17does make sense, particularly if you're trying to build a championship level
35:21core around Anthony Edwards.
35:22And there's a limited amount of players that you can actually get value back for
35:26with towns.
35:27I don't think it's an insane trade by the Timberwolves.
35:31What this comes down to for me is I do not think Julius Randall's
35:36trade value is going to be very high by the end of this thing.
35:39I mean, it was good. I don't get Carl Anthony Towns.
35:41I don't think it's going to be very.
35:44I don't think Dante, I don't necessarily believe that Dante's trade value
35:47is going to be all that high either.
35:49Dante, if you look at the course of Dante, Alex, we know what their trade value is.
35:53It's Carl Anthony Towns.
35:54But I'm talking about what is their trade value in four months,
35:58five months when they have to inevitably shift around this
36:02because this is not a title court.
36:04Let's be clear.
36:05The Wolves making this trade and dealing towns
36:09for whatever you have to say about Carl Anthony Towns, whether he is,
36:12you know, an all star on the NBA or a disappointment,
36:15whatever you have to say about them.
36:17This is not a core that puts the Minnesota Timberwolves closer
36:20to winning the NBA finals this year.
36:22It takes them further away from that.
36:24Carl Anthony Towns was an all NBA guy last year.
36:27He guarded Nikoli Jokic in the playoffs.
36:30I don't know if people remember that part.
36:32That was fairly important for them actually making the Western Conference finals.
36:36If they are in there, they're making this move is trying to build a title
36:40court around Anthony Edwards three, four years from now.
36:44It is an objective step back from pursuing the title this year.
36:49They might be a good team.
36:50They might be a nice playoff team.
36:51They are not coming out of the West with this core.
36:54And to that point, it is a bet that Julius Randle
36:58and Dante DiVincenzo have long term value
37:01where those guys can be flipped into equity for a future championship run.
37:07I do not necessarily buy that that's a winning bet based on where
37:11those guys are at in their careers.
37:12Julius Randle has bounced around the league.
37:15He has had a ton of lower body injuries.
37:17He also is noted as a playoff dropper.
37:20This is a guy who consistently underperforms in the postseason.
37:24He is a little bit of a black hole on offense.
37:27And that's good for pumping up stats.
37:29It's not particularly good for winning basketball.
37:32Dante DiVincenzo, outside of last year's spectacular run with the Knicks,
37:36has been one of the league's most hot and cold guys
37:40that you can think of in terms of jump shooting.
37:42He's had some nights where he's been on fire and he's had nights
37:45where he can't hit anything.
37:47I am really worried about this return as the bet
37:52for we can turn these guys into something around Anthony Edwards
37:55in three years from now.
37:56I'm just not sure that the value is going to be there.
38:00I got to drop.
38:00So, Bobby, drop some knowledge bombs on them.
38:04I'll see you on.
38:06What is it, the 12th?
38:08Yeah, whenever they're back.
38:09Or maybe hoops before then.
38:11Bye, everyone. Bye, Bobby.
38:13Bye, Alex.
38:15Yeah, I'm going to go with Alex on this one.
38:17Now, I think from us, from a value standpoint here
38:22in terms of what changed hands,
38:24I think there's a chance that this could be a fair deal for both sides.
38:28But it is difficult if you're waking up as a Wolfsan after it happens
38:33to be excited, to be optimistic and to feel good about this year.
38:37I think you said it perfectly.
38:39This is going to hurt them this year.
38:41You're coming off a run where you could have made the finals,
38:44where you beat the defending champs,
38:45who many people have repeating in Denver.
38:48And it took a lot out of you.
38:50But now you know what that exhaustion level is going to be in the playoffs.
38:53You figured out the town's Ruby thing.
38:55And this was going to have to happen inevitably.
38:59And I think that's what people need to understand,
39:01is that they weren't going to be able to keep towns around
39:04and all the other pieces here.
39:06So he was going to be the guy who would move eventually.
39:09And it's difficult because you probably could have made one more run
39:12with this group.
39:13But do you get a Randall later on?
39:16That's the tough thing, because I think from a skill set perspective,
39:20from the way he's going to fit in here for now and into the future,
39:24if they're going to keep him around and he does need a new deal.
39:28I'd say you can probably get 80 percent of what towns
39:32gives you from Randall in my mind.
39:34So if you're looking at it from a long view,
39:37especially with Dante coming in a piece that I love.
39:41This is a good value trade for the Wolves.
39:44Now, the problem is money moves, value moves.
39:47Those kind of things don't usually lead to championships,
39:50as you know, we've seen with the Red Sox here in town
39:53and some other teams in the NBA who are just trying to,
39:55you know, make it from a money standpoint here.
39:57Usually it's going to be the teams that are going for it.
39:59Money wise, asset wise, you know, teams that are trading picks,
40:03not picking up a pick like the Wolves did in this deal.
40:06Those are the teams that are going to thrive.
40:09So you're looking at a much less likely chance
40:12that the Wolves advance to the finals against the Celtics this year
40:15as there was a week ago.
40:17Now, the Knicks, which is way more pertinent here to Boston.
40:21I like it. I like towns, though, and I'm one of the few I feel like
40:25I've held out and spent nine years.
40:27So maybe I'm just stuck on this stock and I can't get off it.
40:32He, to me, is one of the most talented guys in this league,
40:36and I think he figured things out a little bit last postseason.
40:39Fouled a little less, defended a little less at the four.
40:42He'll have the chance to play the four at New York.
40:44And I think even though this is a risky move chemistry wise for New York
40:48and just investing in a guy who has been pretty frenetic
40:53as a playoff performer himself in towns.
40:56You had to do it.
40:57I mean, you were going into this year with a Chua and Sims
41:00who was barely played and guys you don't even know
41:03in that center depth chart there when Robinson's going to be out
41:06for who knows how long and Randall himself isn't even ready to start camp.
41:10You couldn't go into the year with this, in my mind.
41:13Could you have gotten by and scraped by and gotten a middling seed? Maybe.
41:18But I looked at that center spot for them, and it was just going to be
41:21such a big problem that I think they could have dropped
41:24if Robinson was going to miss longer than we expect here.
41:27You know, to six, seven, eight.
41:29December is not like a short amount of time, either.
41:31And it's like, right, sort of the season.
41:34So talent has issues, especially when it comes to playing center.
41:38But you're going to get to play five out now.
41:40There's no questions about his offensive game.
41:43He's one of the best four slash five guys in the league talent wise.
41:48And you're just giving up Randall, who I don't want to understate,
41:51but was going to be a tough fit coming back in this team anyway after injury.
41:54Even Shenzhou, who I love, you know, I had him in my top 100
41:57at like 100 that I just made. But.
42:00And you can find another guy with that skill set in the draft
42:03or wherever else, and a pack that's protected for years to come.
42:08I think the Knicks nailed it from a value standpoint here
42:12and getting a guy who can shake up the east a little bit of the south.
42:16Should the Celtics be scared?
42:17Should the Celtics be concerned? No.
42:20But I wasn't high on the Knicks a week ago,
42:23given their issues at center, and you just picked up
42:26one of the best centers in the league.
42:27So I like this for them.
42:29I still think, you know, maybe it's a change of scenery.
42:32Maybe it's the success he saw last year.
42:34Maybe it's being, you know, a smaller piece on this next team.
42:37I mean, you can make an argument that he's the third option here.
42:39So I like it for them.
42:41I'm excited now.
42:43In opening night gets a lot more interesting when you consider
42:45both teams are missing their primary option at center,
42:48but have these really good secondary options now in Towns and Horford.
42:52And now the both teams are playing five out and have a little bit
42:55of defensive versatility.
42:56And I know Towns isn't a great rim protector,
42:58but can get out on the perimeter with his size and defense.
43:01He's better than the reputation. Yeah.
43:04I love it, and I love him playing in New York.
43:06It's going to be a pressure cooker.
43:07They're going to be on him.
43:08I think he's a very divisive player in terms of how people feel about him.
43:12And now he's in the mix.
43:13He's on a team that really matters and has big, big expectations this year.
43:17And he's reuniting with Tibbs, who I know loved him.
43:19So I like him more than the average fan seems to.
43:23And I think it could work out here in a big way.
43:26And now, you know, I think I'm thinking about the Knicks on par
43:29with the Sixers is the biggest threat to us.
43:31And I wasn't feeling that way a couple of days ago.
43:34I agree for the most part.
43:36I think one thing that really stood out to me about the Knicks
43:40playoff run last year is that, you know, obviously the Knicks
43:43really went down primarily because they got hurt, right?
43:46They didn't have enough bodies to keep going by the end there.
43:49But the thing that really killed them in particular, keeping those series going
43:53and making it so that they lost all of those bodies
43:56is that they did not have shot creation outside of Jalen Brunson.
44:00You know, Dante DiVincenzo, good for a corner three.
44:03Good for, you know, coming off the screen.
44:05Josh Hart got weirdly hot during the postseason.
44:07That's all well and good.
44:09That's not sustainable individual offense and shot creation.
44:13And you just in the modern NBA, you have to have two guys who can do that.
44:18You can't do it with one unless that one is a generational
44:22playmaking hub like a Jokic or a truly dominant
44:26physical player like a Giannis.
44:28It's completely unsustainable.
44:30And even with just those guys, it's really hard as we saw them
44:34both flame out in the postseason.
44:36The Knicks needed another guy that could create their own shot,
44:39could be a threat, could draw a double team.
44:42They now have that in Towns.
44:43For whatever you want to say about Carl Anthony Towns, he is a real deal,
44:47high volume three point shooter.
44:49He's gotten better in the post.
44:51He's gotten better off the dribble.
44:52He is the full package offensively on defense.
44:57There's going to be some challenges for him.
44:59He's going to be brought into every single action that he faces
45:03while he's on the floor.
45:04The best teams in the league are going to be going out of their way
45:08to hunt Carl Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson.
45:10And as good as McHale Bridges and OG Ananobi and Josh Hart
45:14are at perimeter defense, they cannot single handedly cover those weaknesses.
45:19So there's going to be an adjustment period.
45:21There's going to be challenges for sure.
45:23But the Knicks, to me, have dramatically increased their championship ceiling.
45:28And to me, they enter this season now with this trade as the clear
45:34number one threat to take out Boston in the Eastern Conference.
45:37I think Philly had a really good offseason.
45:40And prior to this trade, I would have taken them.
45:43But with the way that this Knicks team is constructed,
45:46with the upside that Towns has from a star potential
45:49and with, you know, the kind of way that the roster is built out
45:53to surround them with defensive wings, to me, they address their biggest problems
45:57and they double down on their strengths.
45:59Their depth is a concern.
46:01I still don't think they're better than Boston.
46:04I'm flagrantly biased in this matter.
46:06I will admit to your listening.
46:07But to me, they're now a legit tier one championship contender.
46:14JQ, thoughts on the Knicks?
46:16I think one thing to keep in mind, too, and Bobby really hit the nail
46:20on the head at the beginning of the podcast in terms of tying it
46:23to all this financial stuff, you know, Randall's expiring, right?
46:27We don't know if there is a market for his game with teams
46:31that are looking for a player of his caliber and age, right?
46:34So you have to keep those those salary slots open somehow.
46:39And if you can trade for a player that you wanted for a long time,
46:43even if maybe some of the bloom is off the rose in terms of what he's able
46:46to do defensively, whether or not he's going to be a winning player
46:49and winning context, all that stuff.
46:51I think he's done, you know, some stuff to allay some of those concerns.
46:55But if the alternative is probably losing Randall in free agency
46:58because the things we're talking about happening in Minnesota with him
47:01might also happen with a team he was already on.
47:05You might as well swing for the fences and do something with what's available
47:08when it's available, because the margins under this new CBA,
47:12I think are going to be a lot thinner and we're going to see a lot of people
47:15hanging on until they know they absolutely cannot.
47:17And some other opportunity like this presents itself as an escape valve
47:22that also maybe can roll the dice forward just a little bit further
47:27while they wait to see what actually does happen.
47:29So don't be surprised if we see more like what are they doing?
47:33Kind of from a basketball calculus trades pop up this and next season.
47:40It could become very, very common with this new CBA.
47:44So it's a difficult to find, I think moving money is going to be challenging,
47:49and I'm sure Minnesota looked all summer for suitors for Towns
47:52and couldn't find them if they were willing to move on from for the right price.
47:56And this opportunity here with what was going on with the Knicks at center
48:00entering an important year allowed a team to get a little desperate.
48:04And look, I doubt the Knicks want to move on from Devin Chenzo.
48:08What he did last year is great.
48:10I think they're going to miss him.
48:12Alex brings up the death.
48:13I think you did earlier to Justin.
48:14They're going to miss that guy big time off the bench.
48:17And Hart's going to have to start now.
48:19Who knows how Robinson's going to recover here?
48:22There's questions here.
48:22But when you have an opportunity to get a center that big,
48:24I mean, we're kicking around like Robert Williams.
48:26It's just some of these other like middling tier bigs
48:30that you could just fill in there for a little bit.
48:32And you picked up a guy who's made a couple all NBA teams.
48:36So the talent's so obviously there.
48:38Is he going to not foul?
48:39Is he going to figure out the defensive system?
48:41Is he going to be able to play huge minutes?
48:43Because he's obviously going to have to do that here under Thibodeau
48:46and adapting to the city, too, because they're going to be on him if he struggles.
48:51It's going to be so fascinating.
48:52And I love the fact that we get to see it on opening night against Boston.
48:56That matchup, which had a little bit of snooze elements to it,
49:01given who is going to be out for New York and obviously a big piece out
49:03for Boston on that side.
49:05Now is super intriguing beyond all the stuff that's going to happen
49:08before the game.
49:10All right, fellas, this has been a terrific episode.
49:13We're going to close things out here.
49:15I have three questions and here's the deal.
49:18You are not allowed to respond to those three questions
49:21with anything other than a direct, immediate answer
49:25with no additional context given, with no additional backing
49:30or logic or support for your argument.
49:32It's just going to be snap answers for these three questions.
49:37Are we ready, gentlemen?
49:40All right, but in the next five years,
49:44the New York Knicks or the Minnesota Timberwolves
49:47will be closer to a championship pick one.
49:50No explanation.
49:54Knicks. Wolves.
49:58OK, I like it.
50:00The next big time, high value
50:04major like tier one elite player
50:08to be moved will be.
50:13Giannis.
50:19Butler.
50:21Mm hmm. Good one. Good one.
50:23Good stuff.
50:24And finally, the first major casualty
50:28of the Boston Celtics in the extreme luxury
50:32tax second apron era will be.
50:35Chris Stubbs.
50:41Holiday.
50:43All right, to almost certainly, yeah.
50:46This has been another episode of the Celtics Lab podcast brought to you
50:49by PrizePix, the exclusive fantasy basketball partner of the CLNS Media Network.
50:54Celtics Lab is also brought to you by Game Time Tickets,
50:56last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed.
50:59If you enjoyed this pod, check out the How About Them Celtics pod
51:02first before pod, as well as many other New England sports
51:05podcasts available on the CLNS Media Network.
51:08Bobby, thank you so much for joining us one more time.
51:11Where can we find your stuff again?
51:13Yes, the honest media dot com, the Garn report on YouTube after every game
51:17and the first one's coming up on Friday against Denver
51:20and Boston Sports Journal dot com and Celtics blog dot com.
51:25Justin Quinn, where can we find your stuff, doctor?
51:29Celtics Wire and you're listening to the other end of it.
51:31So, yeah, there you go.
51:33Alex Goldberg here signing us off.
51:36If you like the music that you heard at the very beginning of this podcast,
51:39come see us on tour in North Carolina or D.C.
51:42or Boston in the near future.
51:46We'll see you later.