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00:00:00Is this starting now?
00:00:03Shall we do what we can?
00:00:04Yeah, well let's start.
00:00:08Right.
00:00:14What was the question?
00:00:18I'm waiting on you.
00:00:20My name is Terry Hurley.
00:00:23Born and bred in Belfast.
00:00:25The centre of the universe.
00:00:27The centre of my universe anyway.
00:00:31Lovely Belfast concert.
00:00:34In the 60s, the Rolling Stones came.
00:00:39The Beatles came.
00:00:41Jimi Hendrix.
00:00:43I met Jimi.
00:00:44Great guy.
00:00:46Dylan came to Belfast in May in 65, was it?
00:00:50And I got my audience with Bob.
00:00:54It's just that we were on a circuit.
00:00:58You know, you do Liverpool, Belfast, Dublin, back to London.
00:01:10And then the troubles came.
00:01:13I couldn't believe how quickly my lovely city became divided.
00:01:18I really couldn't.
00:01:24Everyone died.
00:01:27It was a real tragedy.
00:01:34Was there one event that really sticks out for you, a moment like that?
00:01:38We're never getting it back.
00:01:40Bloody Friday.
00:01:42Bloody Friday.
00:01:45To see people with shovels
00:01:50shoving up arms and legs and putting them into bin bags.
00:01:54That's just pretty disgusting.
00:01:58I was going to buy a record, actually.
00:02:02And next thing, a bomb went off near where I was going to buy the record.
00:02:23It's 20 past three in the afternoon, and for the last 20 minutes, Belfast has been rocked by the biggest bombing offensive seen in the city this year.
00:02:48All over the city, plumes of smoke arose as the explosion took place.
00:02:54Bloody Friday.
00:02:56The worst ever example of IRA terror.
00:02:59Nine people killed and more than 130 injured.
00:03:05I do remember Bloody Friday.
00:03:08You heard a couple of bombs go off and you seen the puff of smoke and you sort of went, right, and then you carried on playing.
00:03:15And then there was another one.
00:03:16And another one.
00:03:18And carried on playing.
00:03:20Then there was another one.
00:03:22And then you're sort of going, oh, you know, this is different.
00:03:27Bombs exploded every minute for 20 minutes in busy shopping areas and a crowded bus terminal.
00:03:34I was actually seven when Bloody Friday happened.
00:03:38The sky was black, it was like a scene from hell.
00:03:42And you could even smell the acrid smell of the bombs.
00:03:45It was indiscriminate.
00:03:48Anyone, Catholic, Protestant, whatever, could have become a victim.
00:03:53Neighbours, those who had TVs.
00:03:56The pictures started coming in.
00:03:59Horrible scenes, horrific scenes.
00:04:02Here in this bus station was one of the worst incidents of all.
00:04:07The bus station was crowded when a bomb went off without warning.
00:04:11It didn't seem real, what I was seeing on TV.
00:04:14It felt like another place.
00:04:16And yet it was only streets away.
00:04:19It was frightening.
00:04:21It was very frightening.
00:04:23Certainly the elders in the community were saying, this is an attack on us.
00:04:27They're attacking Protestants.
00:04:31How did you feel about the IRA at that point?
00:04:34That they were awful people.
00:04:35You couldn't look at those pictures and not be horrified by what you saw.
00:05:05I was in the IRA.
00:05:07But I wasn't involved in Bloody Friday.
00:05:10I knew nothing about it.
00:05:12I'd seen it in the news like everyone else.
00:05:14And that's the truth.
00:05:19You couldn't justify it.
00:05:21Catholics as well as Protestants were blown up on that day.
00:05:26It was awful, fucking awful.
00:05:28All those poor people getting blown up.
00:05:30I mean, it was fucking not just awful, it was embarrassing.
00:05:36And is there more emotion in there, Ricky, rather than just embarrassment?
00:05:42Is there conflict in there for you?
00:05:48Either now or at the time?
00:05:50There is now, of course there is.
00:05:52At the time, I was 17 and 18.
00:05:57I was full of revolutionary vigour.
00:06:01And it was just a balls up.
00:06:04Did it make you question being in the IRA?
00:06:08No.
00:06:10But the whole tone of the war seemed to deteriorate after Bloody Friday.
00:06:16It seemed to be a direction changer.
00:06:20Into a very dark place.
00:06:28I was totally comfortable with combatting the British Army.
00:06:31But as things developed, there were Republicans who were sectarian.
00:06:37And, I mean, that's indisputable, right?
00:06:44I mean, there was Protestants killed purely for the sake of the fact that there were Protestants.
00:07:02I didn't understand, you know, exactly what had happened on Bloody Friday.
00:07:07But I knew my community, my people, my city was being attacked again by the IRA.
00:07:13There was a lot of talk about it, I remember, all the others.
00:07:17It was probably the hatred and the anger, you know what I mean?
00:07:20Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him.
00:07:25Threat not thyself because of him.
00:07:29Who prospereth in his way.
00:07:32Because of the man who bringeth wicked devices.
00:07:42Ordinary, peace-loving people were queuing up to join the Lord's Power Militaries.
00:07:47That galvanised support for the Lord's Power Militaries.
00:07:50We needed to fight back, and this was our army.
00:07:54Forward, march!
00:07:59It sounds like a modern mafia.
00:08:02But the UDA, the Ulster Defence Association, ostensibly exists as a military force.
00:08:0750,000 strong, the biggest private army Britain has ever seen.
00:08:12Well, we intend to see that when the terrorists are stopped,
00:08:15the security forces have obviously failed to stop them.
00:08:17We have no alternative but to try and stop them ourselves.
00:08:19This we will try to do.
00:08:23Today's march, I was told, is the beginning of the Protestant backlash,
00:08:25and is a warning to the IRA.
00:08:33The UDA started out in Belfast, right up the Shankill Road.
00:08:38Some of the men got together trying to protect their area,
00:08:43so rather than go to bed on Friday night, the men would patrol around the estate.
00:08:48They were vigilantes.
00:08:52I was one of them.
00:08:56My name's James Greer.
00:08:59I was 17 when I joined the UDA.
00:09:02Guilty. I was charged.
00:09:05But you got a gun when you were 17?
00:09:07I was in charge of guns when I was 17.
00:09:10I have a granddaughter who's 17, by the way.
00:09:14And I could not imagine handing her a gun.
00:09:17I could not imagine handing her anything
00:09:20other than a strawberry fucking milkshake, to be honest.
00:09:23But anyway.
00:09:26Did not have a great home life.
00:09:29I was probably regarded as a low-hanging fruit,
00:09:32and people were whispering in my ear, you know,
00:09:35if we don't stand up for ourselves, we're going to be trampled under the ground.
00:09:39And I'm thinking,
00:09:41I don't want anybody trampling me under the ground.
00:09:44So I find myself, you know, with my hand on the Bible,
00:09:47and a .38, an old Webley .38 in this hand,
00:09:50and a guy holding a pre-prepared statement in front of my face,
00:09:54and I'm reading it off, that I swear to this, and I swear to that,
00:09:57and I swear to the other thing, and for God and Ulster,
00:10:00and if I die in the battle, there's a wall of God,
00:10:03and God has to be in there too.
00:10:06And there I was in the UDA.
00:10:08I swear on my life,
00:10:11that I will defend my appointed district
00:10:14against any invaders.
00:10:17It's all very serious.
00:10:20Like, these guys are sitting behind the counter,
00:10:23and you know yourself, these guys don't mess around.
00:10:26Like, there's no such thing as fucking going to kill a pussycat,
00:10:29they'll fucking cut your throat as quick as they look at you.
00:10:32But what I didn't know that particular night,
00:10:35and didn't learn until months afterwards,
00:10:38was that it was in Egypt.
00:10:41In those early days, you were not even allowed to mention the UFF either,
00:10:44because the UFF was a military organisation that had done a lot of atrocities.
00:10:48It's like joining the Mafia, I know, it's pretty much the same idea.
00:10:55You know, at the start it's all very well, you know,
00:10:58you're sort of doing stupid things like hijacking,
00:11:01stuff like that, you know, and then it comes down to this more serious thing,
00:11:04and as soon as he hands you a gun, he says,
00:11:06you'd better get the fuck out of there, would you?
00:11:09You know, and then it's sort of a position then where you can't say no, you know.
00:11:12You're in.
00:11:14You're in. You're in the air.
00:11:18A lot of people would say that paramilitaries were horrible, awful people,
00:11:22and Northern Ireland would be a wonderful place if they all went away.
00:11:25But they weren't parachuted in from a different country.
00:11:28They didn't land from an alien planet.
00:11:31You know, they were brothers, they were uncles, they were fathers,
00:11:33they were my friends, fathers.
00:11:36And they weren't bad people.
00:11:40They weren't horrible people, they did horrible things.
00:11:43But why did they do those things?
00:11:50On either side of Shankill Road, all are Protestant.
00:11:54On either side of Falls Road, all are Catholic.
00:11:57Catholic. Protestant. Catholic. Protestant. Catholic.
00:12:00Protestant. Catholic.
00:12:03Why is it so difficult for boys like you on the Protestant side
00:12:07to meet and make friends with boys on the Catholic side?
00:12:10Because they don't want to make friends with us.
00:12:13There's times where we can't walk up the road, we're getting pulled,
00:12:16we're getting hated, nothing's done about it.
00:12:19But do you want to make friends with them?
00:12:21No.
00:12:24If you live in a segregated community, you're growing up in ignorance.
00:12:29And ignorance just generates hate.
00:12:32And hate begets hate begets violence.
00:12:35And that's what we did to each other here.
00:12:41In Belfast, the protection of the military is called for
00:12:44to get children safely to school and home again.
00:12:47Their school uniform clearly marks them as the enemy
00:12:50to the Catholics on the other side of Crumlin Road.
00:12:52I have a legal shotgun, and should I have to carry it up the Crumlin Road,
00:12:56I'll do so to protect my child.
00:12:58My child should have the liberty to walk on British soil.
00:13:01She was born British, and British she remained as she died, and I die with her.
00:13:05What about going on another road rather than the Crumlin Road?
00:13:08No.
00:13:10The Crumlin's our road, and it's going to stay Protestant.
00:13:13But aren't you afraid of the stones?
00:13:15No, I'm not, because if I get hit with one, I'd throw it back.
00:13:18That's right, love.
00:13:20I'll help you, love.
00:13:22But what if it's worse than stones?
00:13:24Well, what if it is?
00:13:25What if it is? Can we get bottles and make petrol bombs too?
00:13:29Good for you, love. I'll help you to make them.
00:13:33You only mix with people on your own side.
00:13:36The other side is portrayed in your head,
00:13:39in songs you sing in the bar as the enemy.
00:13:43And they are, you know, in your head.
00:13:46This horrible hatred is built up.
00:13:48Bar your heads.
00:13:50Even in something as innocent as school assembly,
00:13:52we used to make our own songs up about the one,
00:13:55give me oil in my lamp.
00:13:57We used to sing, give me bullets in my gun, keep it firing.
00:14:00Give me bullets in my gun, I pray.
00:14:02Give me bullets in my gun, and we'll shoot them, everyone,
00:14:05the members of the IRA.
00:14:19This is the Shanko Road,
00:14:20the heartland of loyalism.
00:14:24Where my heart and soul was forged.
00:14:28Our whole world, our whole environment was dictated to by,
00:14:33you know, being loyalists and Protestant and hating Catholics.
00:14:37You know what I mean? It was in our DNA,
00:14:40from birth to hate Catholics.
00:14:42We hated them with a passion, so we did.
00:14:44Every minute of our day, we despised them,
00:14:47and we wanted to see them suffer.
00:14:48And I know that is harsh, you know what I mean?
00:14:51Looking at it now, it's crazy.
00:14:53But when you're born in that tribal environment,
00:14:55and your whole life is dominated by the Troubles,
00:14:58they were our enemies, you know what I mean?
00:15:00There was no getting away from that.
00:15:02It's an ingrained survival strategy, like we can tell
00:15:05just by looking at someone, if they're Catholic or Protestant.
00:15:07And I remember doing that myself when growing up as a kid,
00:15:10when I was in Belfast every Saturday.
00:15:12We always thought they were smelly, so we did,
00:15:14and we just knew, he looks like a Catholic.
00:15:19Yeah, I'm a bit worried I'm coming across as a mad,
00:15:21bigoted, sectarian, Catholic-hating madman here.
00:15:26But what I'm talking about is, you know,
00:15:29that environment that I grew up in when I was young.
00:15:31You know what I mean? When we get to talk about the later years,
00:15:33hopefully I'll be able to explain that my attitudes have changed.
00:15:36You've gone on a journey, John.
00:15:38Yeah, exactly.
00:15:40It starts here, doesn't it?
00:15:42Right, OK.
00:15:44But it doesn't end in the same place.
00:15:46Yeah.
00:15:48Yeah.
00:15:53My name is John Chambers.
00:15:55I was born and bred in Belfast.
00:15:57I'm a peace-loving loyalist.
00:15:59And let me start that again.
00:16:01That was good.
00:16:03I sound as if I'm on a game show.
00:16:05LAUGHTER
00:16:07My earliest memory is in hospital.
00:16:09I was in hospital quite a bit when I was younger.
00:16:11I had a bone disease.
00:16:13Gradually, my mum stopped visiting me,
00:16:15and I thought, that's a bit bizarre, you know?
00:16:16No-one ever said anything up to this point.
00:16:19And then my grandmother sat us down one day,
00:16:21and she said, you know,
00:16:23I've got some news to tell you.
00:16:25And we were like, what?
00:16:27And she's like, I'm afraid your mum's died.
00:16:29She died in a car crash.
00:16:31You know, it's harsh, but I didn't even miss her.
00:16:33I know that sounds bad,
00:16:35but because my grandmother was taking such an active role
00:16:37in our upbringing,
00:16:39she was my mother, basically,
00:16:41and my grandmother all rolled into one.
00:16:43And I didn't miss having a mother until I was much older.
00:16:45And I learned the truth.
00:16:48What is this place?
00:16:50This is Glencairn.
00:16:52This is where we moved in the 60s, early 70s.
00:16:54And our house was just here.
00:16:56And I lived there with my dad and my siblings.
00:16:58Your house is where the bonfire is.
00:17:00Right where the bonfire is, yeah.
00:17:02That was our house.
00:17:05Glencairn is a great place to live, you know what I mean?
00:17:07Us kids, we loved it, so we did.
00:17:09Hi, mate.
00:17:11Hi.
00:17:13It was a brand new estate,
00:17:15but it was an ultra loyalist estate, you know?
00:17:17Loyalists controlled every aspect of it.
00:17:19What is a loyalist?
00:17:22Good question.
00:17:24Loyalists is a WASP,
00:17:26white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, basically.
00:17:28We're more British than the British,
00:17:30you know what I mean?
00:17:32Prouder, should I say,
00:17:34than the British to be British.
00:17:36Do you know they still stand for the Queen
00:17:38in Northern Ireland?
00:17:40All loyalists and Protestant clubs,
00:17:42no matter how drunk or stoned or wasted you are,
00:17:44when they play the Queen,
00:17:46you have to stand up and salute.
00:17:48If you don't do it,
00:17:50you're going to get a beating or a hiding.
00:17:52They take it very seriously.
00:17:54And I remember as a child,
00:17:56the BBC every night used to play the Queen
00:17:58at the end of the night,
00:18:00and we used to stand up in the house
00:18:02and salute the Queen when they played it.
00:18:04We were that fanatical, you know?
00:18:06We took that seriously.
00:18:13My mammy,
00:18:15she'd be going,
00:18:17Jim,
00:18:19knock that TV off now.
00:18:21Jim!
00:18:23I told you to knock it off!
00:18:27That national anthem and that flag,
00:18:33it just counts.
00:18:36It means more to me than anything.
00:18:38It means a lot to me.
00:18:40It means more to me
00:18:42than just a song or a piece of cloth.
00:18:44Because it's one of the things, too,
00:18:46that would probably have been
00:18:48on the uniforms of the soldiers.
00:18:50You don't even...
00:18:52Should it be small, it's there.
00:18:54I'm your oppressor.
00:18:56I'm the one that's keeping you down.
00:18:58But one of the...
00:19:00I'm not saying, like,
00:19:02that as I was growing up,
00:19:04I didn't sort of, you know,
00:19:06sometimes see soldiers and think,
00:19:07hmm, he's nice looking.
00:19:10Because that's what happened to me
00:19:12one day coming from school.
00:19:14Literally, I had walked
00:19:16out of the school gates
00:19:18and I was walking home with friends
00:19:20and stopped by the soldiers.
00:19:23Oh, OK, good, you know, your name,
00:19:26where are you coming from?
00:19:28And I'm like,
00:19:30you're seriously asking me
00:19:32where I'm coming from?
00:19:34That's my school behind me.
00:19:35I don't know, is he stupid or something?
00:19:37And while I'm being all, you know,
00:19:39feisty and all this carry on,
00:19:41the fellow that was actually
00:19:43asking me the questions,
00:19:45he was a good looking dude.
00:19:47And I'm kind of going,
00:19:49you're lovely.
00:19:51And then I'm like, oh, Jesus,
00:19:53no, get yourself in check.
00:19:55I literally had to think,
00:19:57doesn't matter how good looking
00:19:59or gorgeous that boy is,
00:20:01he's the enemy.
00:20:03Because you understood the rules?
00:20:05Oh, Jesus, aye.
00:20:11These scenes are a remarkable contrast
00:20:13in a city of totally polarised attitudes.
00:20:15Here Catholic and Protestant girls
00:20:17risk very unpleasant reprisals
00:20:19to dance with British soldiers
00:20:21in a makeshift disco
00:20:23inside the army barracks.
00:20:25You're both Catholic girls
00:20:27who've come for a night out
00:20:29with British soldiers.
00:20:31Isn't that a dangerous thing to do
00:20:33in your circumstances?
00:20:35We think it's worth it.
00:20:37What do you think about the soldiers?
00:20:39Do you like them?
00:20:41Of course we like them very much.
00:20:43You get to really do like them
00:20:45when you start coming to the disco.
00:20:55Soldier dolls,
00:20:57that was the known term for them.
00:21:05This is the lamppost
00:21:07where a 19-year-old girl
00:21:09was tied up last night
00:21:11and jeered at by women and others
00:21:13after she'd had her head shaved
00:21:15and she'd been tarred and feathered
00:21:17all over her head.
00:21:19All because she'd been going out
00:21:21with a British soldier.
00:21:23They were left tied there
00:21:25for the longest while
00:21:27so that people could get
00:21:29a good look at them,
00:21:31totally shaming them
00:21:33and humiliating them
00:21:35and you were not only
00:21:37bringing shame on yourself,
00:21:39you were bringing it on the family.
00:21:41What would you do if you found
00:21:43your daughter going out
00:21:45with a British soldier?
00:21:47I would hand her out to the women
00:21:49who took the girl last night.
00:21:51Are you in favour of
00:21:53tarring and feathering?
00:21:55Wholeheartedly, yes,
00:21:57I'm in favour of it.
00:21:59Are you in favour of it?
00:22:01Definitely.
00:22:03And me, definitely,
00:22:05of the paramilitaries
00:22:07because I felt that
00:22:09they were my protector
00:22:11but also at the same time
00:22:13what they were doing to their own people.
00:22:15It's the ultimate form of control,
00:22:17keeping everybody within their boundaries
00:22:19and within their tribe.
00:22:21They could be
00:22:23the good and the bad,
00:22:26the very bad.
00:22:36The widowed mother of ten children
00:22:38was kidnapped from her home
00:22:40here in the Divis Flats complex
00:22:42on Belfast's Lower Falls Road.
00:22:44On the evening of December 7th,
00:22:46four women entered the home
00:22:48of Mrs. Jean McConville,
00:22:50told her family that their mother
00:22:52would be returned in half an hour
00:22:54and then left with her.
00:22:56Mrs. McConville never returned home.
00:23:06My name's Michael McConville.
00:23:08I'm the son of Jean McConville
00:23:10and my mother was
00:23:13taken from us
00:23:15by the IRA in 1972.
00:23:17Agnes,
00:23:19you were in the night
00:23:21that your mummy disappeared.
00:23:23Can you tell me what happened?
00:23:25My mummy was over at my granny's
00:23:27and she'd just come over
00:23:29and four young girls came in
00:23:31into the hall.
00:23:33She was only coming into the kitchen
00:23:35and she was taken away.
00:23:37Do you know why your mummy went away?
00:23:39Do you know why she was taken away?
00:23:41No.
00:23:43When do you think
00:23:45you'll see your mummy again?
00:23:47I don't know.
00:23:49Nobody's been in touch
00:23:51with you at all, Agnes?
00:23:53No.
00:23:55It's really hard looking at us here
00:23:57to be honest with you.
00:23:59Just seeing how young
00:24:01everybody was, you know.
00:24:05This one here is me.
00:24:13My father was a Catholic
00:24:15and my mother was a Protestant.
00:24:17So it's what they say over here
00:24:19it's a mixed marriage.
00:24:22And in 1970
00:24:24we moved into Divis Flats.
00:24:26At the end of the Falls Road
00:24:28is Divis Flats,
00:24:30a citadel of 10,000 Catholics.
00:24:32Divis Flats are a stronghold
00:24:34of the Provisional IRA,
00:24:36a stone fortress
00:24:38that gave them both cover
00:24:40and escape routes
00:24:42in their war against the British Army.
00:24:46My dad wasn't well
00:24:48for a good while.
00:24:50He had cancer.
00:24:52When he died I thought
00:24:54that was the worst thing
00:24:56that could ever happen to me
00:24:58and my brothers and sisters.
00:25:00Little did I know
00:25:02that I was going to die.
00:25:09How would you describe your dad?
00:25:12My dad?
00:25:15Brave.
00:25:17Courageous.
00:25:19Caring.
00:25:21Funny.
00:25:23Loving.
00:25:27And just really a heart of gold.
00:25:29He's the kind of soul
00:25:31who's just had
00:25:34so much bad things
00:25:36happen in his life.
00:25:38He wouldn't let anyone go through
00:25:40what he had to go through.
00:25:42No matter what,
00:25:44if I told him that something
00:25:46may have happened to me
00:25:48I always knew that he would
00:25:50protect me from that
00:25:52and I think that's what he
00:25:54wanted us to feel.
00:25:56Where do you think that
00:25:57happened to your dad?
00:26:02Probably from my granny
00:26:04getting taken away.
00:26:10There was a shooting
00:26:12going on that night
00:26:14between the IRA
00:26:16and the British soldiers.
00:26:20And a soldier was injured
00:26:22and my mother went to his aid.
00:26:24Who was he?
00:26:25He was a British soldier
00:26:27and she tried to help him.
00:26:29She only knocked a cane
00:26:31of someone who was injured.
00:26:34But the people of Divis Flats
00:26:36didn't see it that way.
00:26:38When I say the people of Divis Flats
00:26:40the IRA of Divis Flats
00:26:42didn't see it that way.
00:26:44They sent someone around
00:26:46to write a slogan across the door
00:26:48while we were all sleeping.
00:26:50Brit lovers or get out
00:26:52or else soldier lovers,
00:26:53that's what they had across
00:26:55the front of the flat.
00:26:57And then the IRA
00:26:59took our mother away.
00:27:02I knew something bad
00:27:04was going to happen.
00:27:06I didn't realise at the time
00:27:08that they were going to
00:27:10murder our mother.
00:27:12Helen, I believe you're
00:27:14looking after the family.
00:27:16How are you managing to cope?
00:27:18Okay.
00:27:20How are you getting money
00:27:22Does that manage
00:27:24to feed all the family
00:27:26because you've got a large family?
00:27:28Yeah.
00:27:30We had no parents.
00:27:32We had really no one
00:27:34to look after us.
00:27:36Don't get me wrong,
00:27:38there was a lot of good people
00:27:40in the Divis Flats.
00:27:42And I would say
00:27:44they probably were scared.
00:27:46What were they scared of?
00:27:48They were scared of the IRA.
00:27:49And they didn't agree with it.
00:27:51So they ruled.
00:27:53And they ruled with an iron fist.
00:28:04Squeeze, one, two, release.
00:28:06Squeeze, one, two, release.
00:28:08That gives you a burst of three
00:28:10or four rounds at a time.
00:28:12Would you ever doubt
00:28:14or question an order?
00:28:16On those days?
00:28:17Yes.
00:28:19No.
00:28:21You wouldn't have done that.
00:28:23That could have cost you your life.
00:28:25And it was made pretty plain.
00:28:28Sergeant Major,
00:28:30you'll take number two patrol tonight.
00:28:32When I was asked to do things,
00:28:34I can remember
00:28:36the excitement,
00:28:39the butterflies in the stomach
00:28:43like it was yesterday.
00:28:45And that becomes addictive.
00:28:48Do you know what I mean?
00:28:50That adrenaline maybe
00:28:53rush that you get
00:28:55because you're living on the age.
00:28:57You know?
00:29:01That day was a day
00:29:03like any other day.
00:29:05It was a Thursday,
00:29:07five days after my 19th birthday.
00:29:09Come home from work,
00:29:11got something to eat and out
00:29:13and had a pint.
00:29:15And then me and my friend,
00:29:17two men,
00:29:19and these guys said,
00:29:21come with us,
00:29:23we're going to do such and such
00:29:25because of such and such.
00:29:27When you say such and such?
00:29:29That's what they call redactions.
00:29:31See if your paper,
00:29:33you can just scrabble across it
00:29:35and say, no,
00:29:37that's a redacted statement.
00:29:39You're not going to tell me what's such and such?
00:29:41I'm fucking not going to tell you
00:29:43any more than such and such.
00:29:45But we went to this place
00:29:47and I met up
00:29:49with the senior officer
00:29:51and he gave me a list of things
00:29:53that I had to do
00:29:55and said, right, get on with it.
00:29:57What was on that list?
00:29:59Where they plant the device,
00:30:02what I was looking for
00:30:04before I planted the device
00:30:06and sort of specifics about time
00:30:10and stuff like that.
00:30:12So you knew it was a bomb you had to put down?
00:30:14Yeah.
00:30:15How did you feel?
00:30:17It was just a Thursday type of thing.
00:30:20That sounds a wee bit blasé.
00:30:22The 70s was an awful time.
00:30:25You know what I mean?
00:30:27So I was in the middle,
00:30:29I was in the thick of that.
00:30:31So somebody said to me,
00:30:33you're going to be planting this device here.
00:30:35You might as well have said,
00:30:37do you want a cup of tea?
00:30:39It didn't mean anything.
00:30:41I'd just say, okay, right, that's it, no problem.
00:30:43Get on with it.
00:30:45It was primed
00:30:47and it was myself and another guy.
00:30:52So I says, right, go in there and do that
00:30:55and set it there and blah, blah, blah.
00:30:57And he says, okay, no problem.
00:30:59And he took about,
00:31:01I don't know, maybe five or six steps
00:31:04and it ignited.
00:31:11All I can remember was a big white ball
00:31:13and I was inside it.
00:31:15And I remember going,
00:31:19my face was all,
00:31:21blood was pussing out of me,
00:31:23but I was all there.
00:31:25What injuries did your friend get?
00:31:28Lost his arm.
00:31:30Why did he go off?
00:31:32Premature explosion, just.
00:31:34There's any God's amount of reasons.
00:31:39And then the army were everywhere,
00:31:41they were on top of us,
00:31:43they were everywhere.
00:31:46Can I ask,
00:31:48were you,
00:31:50were you willing,
00:31:52were you willing to kill someone?
00:31:54Yes.
00:31:56That's why I was there.
00:31:58And if I had to kill people,
00:32:00I will kill people.
00:32:02And that is not even a challenge to me.
00:32:04You know, it's part of what I signed off.
00:32:09You went from being
00:32:11a normal teenager
00:32:13to
00:32:14willing to murder.
00:32:17Two easy steps type thing.
00:32:23Yeah.
00:32:26You know looking at me now
00:32:27that I am
00:32:28right out of my comfort zone.
00:32:30Yeah.
00:32:33You've taken me to a bad place, James.
00:32:35Sorry.
00:32:37It's all right, it'll get by,
00:32:38you know what I mean.
00:32:40It just takes you to a bad place,
00:32:41you know,
00:32:42that you don't really
00:32:43feel comfortable with,
00:32:44but at the same time,
00:32:46because you're not comfortable with it
00:32:47doesn't mean that it's not there.
00:32:51And I hate to ignore,
00:32:53you know,
00:32:54the things that make me uncomfortable
00:32:55because they're important.
00:32:58You know.
00:33:02Are we going to get
00:33:03another cup of tea here?
00:33:04Yeah, sure.
00:33:06Fancy one now?
00:33:07I would love one now.
00:33:09I would kill you for a cup of tea.
00:33:12Yeah.
00:33:32You're always aware that,
00:33:33you know, a bomb could go off
00:33:34at any time
00:33:35in the city center
00:33:36or anywhere
00:33:38throughout Belfast.
00:33:41Their security presence
00:33:42was always very
00:33:44prominent, you know.
00:33:45I mean, there was always
00:33:46someone with a gun
00:33:47within eyesight.
00:33:49So you're always cautious,
00:33:50you know what I mean,
00:33:51and, you know,
00:33:52you could see it in people's faces.
00:33:54You know, the suspicion
00:33:55and the fear,
00:33:56you know what I mean,
00:33:57everyone had it at the time.
00:34:03From my earlier stage,
00:34:05Belfast was a
00:34:07no-parking zone.
00:34:08You couldn't park your
00:34:09unattended car in town.
00:34:11So my mom would keep me
00:34:12off school so I could
00:34:13sit in the car
00:34:14while she went
00:34:15dinner shopping, you know,
00:34:16because you couldn't leave
00:34:17an unattended vehicle
00:34:18within the city center.
00:34:19It might have been a car bomb,
00:34:20so somebody had to be
00:34:21in the passenger seat.
00:34:22Or when you came back,
00:34:23the street would be
00:34:24completely cleared
00:34:25and your car would be on fire.
00:34:27The army would blow it up.
00:34:35What my mom did was
00:34:36put her big fat school kid
00:34:37in the passenger seat
00:34:39with a bag of crisps
00:34:40and a bottle of Coke
00:34:41and a comic,
00:34:42and I'd be sitting there
00:34:43happy for hours.
00:34:44I'd go,
00:34:45Mum, Mum, Mum,
00:34:46I got the day off school.
00:34:52When the bombing
00:34:53started happening,
00:34:55the businesses were
00:34:56complete and then they built
00:34:58a ring of steel
00:35:00around the city center
00:35:01to stop people
00:35:03getting bombed.
00:35:06You had gates
00:35:07and barriers
00:35:08that went round
00:35:09and round to hold
00:35:10the city center
00:35:11and it was just something
00:35:12that was part of your life.
00:35:19I think it probably
00:35:20looks like a bomb scare,
00:35:21is it?
00:35:22How many times
00:35:23has this happened to you?
00:35:24Oh, dozens and dozens
00:35:25of times.
00:35:26Has there ever
00:35:27actually been a bomb?
00:35:28Oh, yes, yes.
00:35:31No, it's just a way of life.
00:35:33The whole life of the city
00:35:34had been sucked out of it.
00:35:37All the nightlife was gone.
00:35:40I mean, Jesus,
00:35:42people were going,
00:35:44leaving the country.
00:35:47I used to think
00:35:48all the poets,
00:35:49the painters,
00:35:50and the performers,
00:35:51the music,
00:35:52all just got up and left.
00:35:55It was pretty scary.
00:35:56It was pretty scary.
00:36:26There are places in Belfast, where things have happened in my life that I feel very
00:36:45uncomfortable walking past. Like Direct Wine Sales is in the old building where I used
00:36:52to work for Kodak and I came out one night and three gunmen tried to grab me in the car
00:36:59and these two guys, they jumped in and saved my life and I managed to get away. That had
00:37:06happened to friends of mine and they weren't seen again and were tortured. I just thought
00:37:11well I'm going to do something that I really want to do before they kill me. And that was
00:37:18when I decided I was going to set up a record shop. It was an old building and we needed
00:37:29to put windows in it and stuff and I decided we would have a party in it on Sunday night.
00:37:36So I painted up the toilet. I painted it with an old can of red paint and painted the toilet
00:37:44so you couldn't see it red because you couldn't have young ladies coming round and not having
00:37:48a decent toilet. So that was my first priority. And then we set up a music system in it and
00:37:54we had a great party. Terry's shop became a focal point. It became a social thing to
00:38:01do and Terry loved that there. I went down to the shop and met Terry for the first time
00:38:05and fucking loved him. He felt this bigger than life character. It just gradually, slowly,
00:38:12maturely built up a bit of a reputation. Then people started to come from all over
00:38:18Northern Ireland to the shop, so they did. But it was a great way of bringing people
00:38:25together, Protestant and Catholics. Nobody gave a shit. Good vibrations with a little
00:38:35oasis in a sea of madness. We have a body in the entry behind us and that body has severe
00:38:47head injuries. How was it discovered? It was discovered this morning by two passers-by.
00:38:52It's assumed he set off late at night to find a taxi in the Falls Road and instead became
00:38:59the random victim of loyalist terrorists. Everyone was scared of the Shankill Butchers.
00:39:07They were bogeymen. We all feared them. So many people were killed during those days,
00:39:13but these were brutal. They haunted my dreams. To me, this is gruesome. This is inhuman,
00:39:23beastly. It's indescribable. What the Butchers used to do is get a taxi and drive around Catholic
00:39:32areas so that people would just flag down the taxi. And the minute they got in, they'd be
00:39:36attacked by the Shankill Butchers and tortured. Horrendous stuff. Cut with knives, have the
00:39:41teeth pulled out. Absolutely brutal violence. And they dumped the bodies right beside where I lived.
00:39:48One morning we were going to school. I was about 11 at the time. As we were walking past the
00:39:55community centre, I could see the shape of a body lying there. There's loads of blood all around it,
00:39:59so there was. It had a profound effect on me because he was such an innocent young boy.
00:40:04Just seeing someone there, you know what I mean, cast aside like a piece of meat and butchered
00:40:10like that. Our children are coming in from school and from their play and telling us
00:40:16that there are men's heads lying in the gutter. They're playing about in the blood and they're
00:40:22coming in and saying, Mummy, look, that's that dead man's blood on my foot. And we think that
00:40:27it's terrible that children in this day and age should be coming in and telling us these things
00:40:32when they should be out playing and enjoying themselves like we had. I used to play at the
00:40:38bottom of the estate when I was walking home. If I heard the sound of a black taxi, diesel engine
00:40:43taxi, climbing the hill behind me, I used to panic. I used to think it's the butchers. And I'd be
00:40:48terrified even though I was Protestant. I was living in a Protestant estate. I'd grab a stick
00:40:52or a plank of wood or something and hide behind a bush until they passed me. I used to be freaking
00:40:57out because just say they're stopping to put someone out and they're killing in front of me
00:41:00and I see them killing them, then they're going to kill me. You know, there was that fear of you
00:41:06know, them and me becoming a victim. And my dad was outraged at these killings, so he was. I mean,
00:41:13to him, this is not what loyalism is all about. Can I ask about your dad? I find it hard talking
00:41:19about my dad. Do you? Give me a sec, yeah. How old were you when he died? Ten. Ten. He had cancer and my dad's death
00:41:34hit me like a sledgehammer. Well, my mum's death didn't really hit me because I didn't have that
00:41:39relationship with her, you know. And I wasn't used to having her around, where my dad had been a
00:41:43constant presence in my life. And it was decided that we'd go and live with various aunties and
00:41:48uncles. So that was the end of our family unit, living together under one roof. So life went on,
00:41:54you know what I mean? I was living with my uncle Rob and my auntie and that. And one day I was
00:41:58sat at the top of the stairs and they're all talking. And I kind of tuned in to what they
00:42:02were saying because they were talking about my mum. I thought, why are they talking about her?
00:42:07I realised that they were talking about her as if she was still alive. They weren't saying
00:42:11was, they were saying is. And then I came to the realisation that, no, she's not dead,
00:42:16she's actually alive somewhere. My uncle said, oh, I wonder if she's still practising Catholic.
00:42:20I was like, what? I gleaned that she was alive first and I soared. I thought, fuck me, she's
00:42:26alive. I want to meet her. And then when I found out she's Catholic, I sort of nose-dived again.
00:42:31Fuck me, I don't want to meet her. I never want to hear her, never want to see her, you know.
00:42:35I felt utter shame. I had Catholic blood running through my veins. I couldn't comprehend why my
00:42:40dad would, why would he go and marry a Catholic? He was a good, loyalist. He's in the UDA, he's
00:42:45got a bond. Why would he go with a Catholic? It was just all these things overloading in my brain.
00:42:51And also you had the Shankle Butchers happening at this time. This is all during the same period.
00:42:56So when I heard I was a Catholic, I'm thinking, fuck, you know, all the Shankle Butchers,
00:42:59if they find out I'm a Catholic, they're definitely going to come and get me and cut me up.
00:43:02And they've only got to trail me down the road because I'm right beside the community centre.
00:43:06So all these conflicting emotions were going through me, you know what I mean? And I had
00:43:10this dirty little secret that I had to keep. I couldn't tell anyone, I couldn't talk to anyone
00:43:13about it. Where's my mother? Where's my mother, you know? Who is she? Why is she not here? Why did
00:43:18she leave us? All these questions. That is a brutal thing to live with.
00:43:25Michael, do you have lots of memories of your mum?
00:43:36The only memory that really sticks in my head was the night when she was taken away.
00:43:41And the last memories that I have of her was when she was going out the door with two women
00:43:47holding her at each arm. And she just turned around and looked at us back. And that's my
00:43:52last memory of my mother. Believe you me, it's not a good memory to have.
00:44:09The IRA came back with my mother's purse and her wedding rings.
00:44:16I sort of realised, I was only 11 years of age, but my mother was dead.
00:44:25All I wanted all my life was to have my mother's body back.
00:44:33Not knowing where her body is. They carry it around me every day of my life.
00:44:39The IRA was ashamed of what they'd done. That's why it was all in denial, but they didn't do it.
00:44:52That's why all the excuses was made by them, saying that her mother had run off with
00:44:56a British army, or her mother was living with a UDA man up at Shankill Road. All these stories,
00:45:02I've heard all these stories before. They had put it out, but she wasn't informed.
00:45:08Who said she was an informer? That was coming from the IRA.
00:45:12They were saying that? Yeah. So what the IRA was telling us was lies.
00:45:21We were told lies for near enough 30 years.
00:45:24In a surprise move tonight, the IRA has told the BBC that it has identified the griefs of nine people who were murdered and buried in secret.
00:45:42For more than 30 years, Jean McConville's children have waited for concrete evidence
00:45:46about their mother's disappearance, and today they believe they've finally been given it.
00:45:54♪♪
00:46:04♪♪
00:46:14♪♪
00:46:24No one will ever know what happened. Only the people that were there know what happened.
00:46:32And you'd like to think there was compassion shown, but then again, there wouldn't have been compassion shown.
00:46:40You just feel scared for her, because what else would she have felt?
00:46:46♪♪
00:46:50Me and my brothers and sisters give her a Christian burial, which she has deserved.
00:46:56♪♪
00:46:58So we have a place where we can go, say our prayers, talk to her.
00:47:07It was closest what we were ever going to be, tell her more again, you know.
00:47:12These things help you.
00:47:14♪♪
00:47:17After 31 years, you knew where she was buried.
00:47:20♪♪
00:47:28It's not the first time I said it was a sectarian murder.
00:47:33It was. It was a Protestant woman murdered by the IRA.
00:47:36What more sectarian could you get?
00:47:38♪♪
00:47:43I would like to say this, and I would like to stay in it.
00:47:47And I mean this 100%.
00:47:53See, any person that was involved in taking my mother away and killing her and everything else,
00:47:58I wouldn't wish this here on any of our family.
00:48:02And I really mean that.
00:48:09♪♪
00:48:12Because you know.
00:48:13I wouldn't like to see another human being lose their life.
00:48:18♪♪
00:48:39Do paramilitaries lie in bed at night and wonder about what they did?
00:48:42Do they see the faces of the dead people?
00:48:44I kind of hope so.
00:48:47I don't see how anybody can wake up in the morning and kill anybody for a political reason.
00:48:53Fuck.
00:48:58I'm Greg Cahn.
00:48:59I'm 62 years of age.
00:49:01I have seven of my own hair left.
00:49:04I've got a life. I've got a life that I never imagined I would have growing up first.
00:49:12♪♪
00:49:15Am I hitting something here?
00:49:16Yeah, let's see the space bar.
00:49:18♪♪
00:49:28Oh no, I can't watch this.
00:49:30I thought you were going to show a clip when it was pretty.
00:49:32Apart from the recording studio, the reality of Belfast's punk rock scene
00:49:38is far removed from the glamour and sensation of the gossip columns.
00:49:42Greg Cowan, by day a contract painter, by night he's a vocalist with the Outcasts.
00:49:48♪♪
00:50:01The Outcasts were one of my favourite bands.
00:50:04The Hart Bar was a dreadful bar.
00:50:07The official IRA used to drink downstairs.
00:50:11They had wire grills outside and that was to stop people throwing bombs at it.
00:50:16Where, look, you could go up and hang a bomb on the wire grills.
00:50:20That never quite worked out.
00:50:22But it was just a really run-down bar.
00:50:28I remember getting into town to travel to the Hart Bar.
00:50:33You had to navigate your way from one side of town to the other side of town.
00:50:40There was hardly anybody about.
00:50:42It was dark.
00:50:45There would have been a security force present, whether that be the army or the police.
00:50:50I might have felt a bit anxious.
00:50:52I might have felt a bit anxious.
00:50:54Just that kind of fear that you might have felt that you might have been the target of something
00:50:59because, you know, there was a group of you.
00:51:02But once you got to the Hart Bar, that was lifted off, put at the door, you walked in.
00:51:10And, you know, all those worries and things, because you knew you were in a safe place.
00:51:17I mean, it was a dump, but it was our dump.
00:51:21Your feet sticking to the floor because spilt drink all over the carpet.
00:51:26Ash trays that weren't emptied.
00:51:28And the toilets, the toilets were like something out of Trainspotting.
00:51:31I mean, they were horrible.
00:51:33So they were.
00:51:40It was a madhouse, an absolute madhouse.
00:51:43This was not the model-y crowd.
00:51:46This was guys from Belfast, guys, you know, who were turning their back on their friends
00:51:50who they'd run about with for years, who might have been now joining paramilitaries and stuff.
00:51:54They were saying no to all that there and moving on.
00:51:59There was a lot of punks whose fathers were well-known paramilitaries,
00:52:04their brothers were.
00:52:06But when you went down to the Hart Bar and you went through that door,
00:52:11religion went out the window.
00:52:13I don't think I ever heard anybody talk, certainly about religion
00:52:17and what was going on out there, in there.
00:52:20It was all about the music.
00:52:22It was all about the fashion.
00:52:24It was all about the bands.
00:52:26And it was all about who was going to play, who was playing that night.
00:52:29For the first time you were meeting people from a different area and a different religion.
00:52:33There's still people called each other, you know, if you fell out with somebody,
00:52:36if you encountered something, you know, like it wasn't...
00:52:38Like it didn't automatically, as I said, everybody did just walk in,
00:52:40pros on this side, hug all the Catholics on the other side, you know.
00:52:43But it did, it broke barriers.
00:52:45If punk breaks down the barrier for one person,
00:52:48then it's worthwhile, like, isn't it?
00:52:50And one person, it's only a tiny particle,
00:52:54but it's going to create for a better situation here.
00:52:57And, like, punk's done that for me.
00:53:08I kind of embraced that whole youth culture
00:53:11and I started mixing with Catholics and that.
00:53:13That was, like, an eye-opener for me,
00:53:15because even though I'd grown up hating them with a passion,
00:53:18I didn't understand them.
00:53:20But hanging out with them and meeting them,
00:53:22I realised that we weren't that different from each other after all.
00:53:25And we liked the same music and same style and we had so much in common.
00:53:29And from that point onwards, I started to change my attitude towards Catholics
00:53:33and let go of that entrenched prejudice to my childhood.
00:53:36You know, I was still dealing with all the personal problems in my life
00:53:39and all the madness going on around me in Belfast.
00:53:42So the music and the drugs, you know,
00:53:44soothed the soul and offered some escapism from the madness.
00:53:52And don't forget then, you know, boys, girls are marrying.
00:53:55I myself met my wife in the hard bar.
00:54:01He started telling me I was a groupie and everything.
00:54:04I was never a groupie. You were a groupie.
00:54:06I only started going out with him because he had a car and it was a left turn.
00:54:09That's also true.
00:54:13Did you ever know what religion I was?
00:54:15I always wanted to marry a Catholic, so I remember saying,
00:54:18that one there, she's quite a pretty one, she'll do.
00:54:20No, of course not. You didn't discuss.
00:54:22You found that out afterwards.
00:54:23I mean, that's one of the points you made about the whole thing, yeah.
00:54:26Yeah.
00:54:27Although your eyes are always very close together,
00:54:29which was a bit of a giveaway.
00:54:33Love conquers all.
00:54:42CHEERING
00:54:54Just really a lot of people did not like what was going on.
00:55:01I got threatened all the time from both sides.
00:55:03Why were they threatening you?
00:55:05Because we were bringing the kids together and they didn't like it.
00:55:13In a derelict side street between Roman Catholic and Protestant areas,
00:55:17three men were found shot in the head.
00:55:19Face down on the floor, with a pitchfork stuck in the back of her neck.
00:55:26The only reason that I know why our sons died
00:55:30were because they were Catholics.
00:55:43Punks were very brave because those kids lived in areas
00:55:46which were controlled by the paramilitaries.
00:55:49To go down to the heart bar and mix with people from the other tribe
00:55:53was not what they wanted.
00:55:55They wanted division, they wanted hatred,
00:55:58and they wanted to be able to control you.
00:56:02I mean, I lived near the Armour Road, people used to call it Murder Mile,
00:56:06and a friend of mine said,
00:56:09if you walked down the right-hand side at night it meant you were a Catholic,
00:56:13if you walked down the left-hand side it meant you were a Protestant.
00:56:16But Terry Hooley and his band, the Merry Men,
00:56:19always danced down the middle of the road.
00:56:21And that's what we tried to do, dance down the middle of the road.
00:56:26Ladies and gentlemen, would you put your hands together for Mr Terry Hooley.
00:56:32CHEERING
00:56:37I always wanted to be able to say to my children,
00:56:40when I said, Daddy, what did you do during the Troubles,
00:56:43I wanted to say that I partied a lot,
00:56:47I drank, did drugs and had a good time,
00:56:53and I didn't kill anybody.
00:57:02What did sectarianism do to your life, James?
00:57:07Ultimately. Ultimately it destroyed my life.
00:57:12Had you done things you couldn't forgive yourself?
00:57:14Aye. Aye.
00:57:32MUSIC
00:57:37I can remember a guy that I was in jail with,
00:57:41and he told me of how he was sent to kill his shopkeeper.
00:57:46He went into the shop, the shopkeeper came out,
00:57:49and he took out his gun and shot the man.
00:57:52A few seconds later, the door to the dwelling opened again and locked the man's wife,
00:57:57and he shot her as well.
00:57:59She now falls down dead on top of her husband.
00:58:07He goes to walk away, and the door opens again,
00:58:10and in walks their 8-year-old daughter.
00:58:15He tries to kill the daughter, and fires 10 or 12 shots.
00:58:25I went away from him that day, you know, and it went back to me.
00:58:29It was a six-man cell, and I lay down and I thought,
00:58:33I can't do it, James.
00:58:36I can't be part of it, this is not...
00:58:38I didn't sign up for this.
00:58:40Shooting a woman in jail, fuck, this is not me.
00:58:44And I made a deal with myself that day, I said,
00:58:46whatever is left of my miserable life,
00:58:48I will never, ever, ever lift a gun again.
00:58:51That is me, finished, out, finit, nomas.
00:59:00When you dumped your sectarianism, did you shed it in one go?
00:59:09Jesus, that's a hard question.
00:59:12I think it faded away, you know.
00:59:17And we have a saying in the country, you know,
00:59:19like snow of a summer ditch.
00:59:22Snow doesn't vanish in an hour,
00:59:25but it slowly melts away, and then you turn around,
00:59:27and then you turn around, and all of a sudden it's all gone.
00:59:31You know?
00:59:37It's all right.
00:59:39It's very personal, baby.
00:59:41I know you struggle with this,
00:59:44but I really appreciate you going back there.
00:59:47Uh-huh.
00:59:48Is that a...?
00:59:50Yeah, clap.
01:00:03Mmm.
01:00:08How are you getting on with your question?
01:00:10Good.
01:00:13How are you getting on with your biscuit?
01:00:16Pretty good.
01:00:28We're playing a princess!
01:00:31We put shit on the wall.
01:00:34And we did the thing.
01:00:37And we...
01:00:39And we...
01:00:41And we...
01:00:43And we...
01:00:44And we...
01:00:45And we...
01:00:47And we...
01:00:49And we...
01:00:51And we...
01:00:53And we...
01:00:54We're playing on prisoners!
01:00:56We put shit on the wall and pissed out the door.
01:00:58We were doing something positive.
01:01:00They've turned their violence against themselves
01:01:03through the prison hunger strike to death.
01:01:08I hated every minute of being a prisoner's wife.
01:01:11I never knew the word hate
01:01:13until I got married, until this happened.
01:01:18To watch exclusive interviews
01:01:20about the making of this series,
01:01:22visit bbc.co.uk forward slash OnceUponATime
01:01:27and follow the links to The Open University.