En Paso del Rey, un grupo de individuos irrumpió violentamente en el predio de la ONG Defensores del Chaco, destruyendo el alambrado perimetral y postes de cemento. La organización, que alberga a dos mil niños para actividades deportivas y culturales, denuncia que los atacantes buscan apoderarse del terreno con fines ilícitos. La comunidad se encuentra en alerta ante la amenaza de usurpación y las posibles consecuencias para el barrio.
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00:00Is it preferable that in a place there is a community club or that place has been taken?
00:08Well, anyone knows that for the organization of a popular neighborhood, we are talking about Paso del Rey, the best thing is that there is a club.
00:18However, look at this video. The guys arrive, as if they were the bosses, and begin to break a wire.
00:31A well-made wire, it is not a fallen wire, no, no, they begin to break a wire.
00:38Why? Well, what they say, the people of this NGO, who try to set up this club, is that they want to take over the building.
00:51Perhaps it is known that the shots, many times the real needs of housing are hidden behind the shots, but they end up being territorial management of people who want to do something else.
01:05Control a neighborhood, rent houses, sell drugs.
01:13Diego Godoy is there in Paso del Rey, tell us more.
01:19There are 2,000 guys who host this organization here, defenders of the Chaco, where they do sports and cultural activities.
01:27And that's how the posts were thrown, when the hoods of the neighborhood came and kicked, they took out all the wire and left each of the posts hanging.
01:39Notice that this is no longer useful, they broke it with kicks.
01:44Here is a cement base that was totally destroyed, that is, this was already totally unused.
01:51What was the purpose of taking over this land, this place where there is a football field, and obviously with the reasons for which you just detailed.
02:02Many times to stay with the land, but try to get the kids out who are trying to do sports activities.
02:09To get out of the situation.
02:11Let's think about the hypothesis, it was a community land and this foundation does not allow people from the neighborhood to enter, for example.
02:19This land, a part of this land, belongs to the organization.
02:24That's why they, in the face of the threat of being usurped and with the consequences that this brings for the neighborhood, with the sale of drugs many times.
02:34That's why the violence with which they acted, they are not ordinary people who come to want to take it here.
02:40They came, they took out a whole perimeter wire, they broke the posts with the intention also to threaten, not just to take the wire.
02:51Of course, because many times we have seen, Rolo, in many opportunities that different houses come, different people to want to take over the land and start planting things.
03:02Here, what did they come to do? To threaten.
03:04They took it out at 5 in the afternoon, it was 5 in the afternoon, in broad daylight, when the kids started coming here to do sports activities.
03:13And in the light of everyone, what did they start doing?
03:16Take out the wire and then kick the posts and take everything out.
03:19Well, and obviously generate that situation of a lot of violence with that intention.
03:24What was it? What I was telling you.
03:26The land belongs to the organization.
03:29What they did in the face of the threat, well, try to bring it closer to be able to protect it in some way,
03:36and that this does not happen unless it has to go against the ideas of the project that they have in mind.
03:43But who are the aggressors, you know, Leo?
03:45Look, yes, here we are with Rebecca, in fact, there is a situation, we are with Rebecca who is in front of the organization.
03:54I imagine the pain that it generates to see everything, sorry, but because it is a situation of violence.
04:03It is important to put in context, let's say, good morning, how are you?
04:08Put in context what the situation is, this land is part of our institution,
04:13it is an institution that promotes common good for many years,
04:18Fundación Defensores del Chaco, very recognized in our community,
04:22constitutive of our community and also very recognized.
04:28No, I prefer to speak, the truth is that it is a context.
04:31It is a situation, quite complex.
04:35It seems to me that giving identity also, let's say, to the participants of the criminal events,
04:41it is also a way to elevate them and put them in a leading place.
04:46Here, the prominence has to be of the community and to defend the public spaces
04:50where the children can carry out their activities, where the children can project a possible life
04:56that is organized under the common good.
05:00So, sometimes wire and perimeter is a necessary condition
05:05because it is what allows to have a safety framework, a care framework.
05:11The activities sometimes have to be safe because the children train.
05:15So, the wire is not a synonym of exclusion, quite the opposite.
05:20It is where practice can be made possible, many times.
05:23And it is also a common project with the municipality, let's say,
05:27it is an agreement, it is a much larger land than what is ours and it is our property.
05:32And it is a common project, let's say, of realization, let's say.
05:36Allow me to show Rebeca a little bit.
05:38Rebeca, look, we are going to show it to you.
05:40Notice how all the sticks were lying all around.
05:45And you are going to see, Rolo, look, we are going to go a little bit to the middle.
05:49Come, come, Rebeca, let's see.
05:53Look, there it is.
05:54Notice how the pile of sticks was.
05:56Sure.
05:57At this moment.
05:58Well, and there in the background, behind.
06:01Well, one of the people who just came to threaten
06:06to face the situation of what we were telling.
06:08But hey, he's leaving.
06:10He just came, he saw that we were here and telling this situation,
06:15he came to face the people here from the organization.
06:19Rebeca did not want to give him a guarantee,
06:21but we also have to tell him because it is something that is happening.
06:24Imagine if it happens when we are,
06:26what can happen when we are not.
06:29That's why we also told him, Rolo, let's say.
06:32Sure.
06:33But, let's see, are they from the neighborhood?
06:36We deduce that they are from the neighborhood,
06:37because if they are there watching what the television mobile does,
06:40we deduce that they are from the neighborhood.
06:41I say, you don't have to do a great search to go and tell him,
06:44hey, boy, cut it.
06:48Of course, obviously, that's the situation,
06:51because imagine, it's seven and a half in the morning
06:54and they are already attentive to this situation of what we are telling.
06:59I thank you very much for making the coverage.
07:01I think it's super important.
07:03I have no intention of continuing to participate with other participants
07:07because there is a complaint, yes, filed by the prosecution.
07:10There is a complaint.
07:11Of course.
07:12A criminal complaint.
07:13Of course, a criminal complaint, of course.
07:15So everything we talk about here
07:18and have the instance of exchanging with other actors
07:23who may have been or may have been witnesses,
07:26it is not convenient.
07:27I tell you, the terrain is yours.
07:29Of course.
07:30Of course.
07:31The terrain is yours.
07:32Exactly.
07:33That is, with the papers, with all the ...
07:35Of course, of course.
07:37In fact, at the time of ...
07:40the previous moment of making the wire,
07:42of doing the wire action,
07:44we presented the title of property in the prosecution,
07:47years ago we presented it and it is there,
07:51to be able to carry out the action.
07:52Ask him what happened.
07:53I don't know if he listens to me.
07:54What response did they have from the municipality?
07:56Yes, yes, I'm listening, Rolo.
07:58He doesn't listen.
07:59What response did they have from the municipality?
08:01What response did they have from the municipality?
08:02No, they accompany us, of course,
08:04because the other two lands,
08:05as I have explained to you before,
08:06are not our property,
08:07although we kept them all our lives,
08:09we cut the grass,
08:10let's say, we put a lot of resources here.
08:13The other two ...
08:15Don't interrupt me, yes?
08:16The other two lots belong,
08:18they don't have our ownership,
08:20they are in Uso Capión,
08:21but in accordance with the Institute of Housing,
08:24of the municipality,
08:26we always organize the activities
08:28and here the space is preserved
08:30for the use of the community.
08:32The institute has the project
08:34of making a square,
08:36a public space,
08:41so the need to limit the space
08:43that has functionality
08:45for the sports social organization.
08:47Of course, that is the intention.
08:49That's right.
08:50And why ...
08:51Let's see, I go back to the wire.
08:53What happened with the wire
08:54and why the destruction?
08:56Well, because obviously
08:58there are other interests
08:59to keep the space available
09:01or open for other types of activities
09:04or other types of functions.
09:06Already that vandal act
09:09shows the intention
09:12and the way they proceed
09:14when someone does not agree
09:16with an intervention, right?
09:17I think the facts speak for themselves,
09:20let's say, beyond everything, right?
09:22If you think that, let's say,
09:23an institution with 30 years of recognition,
09:25with a ...
09:27Well, let's say,
09:29with an immense trajectory
09:30with respect to inclusion
09:32and the development of a community.
09:34That is to say,
09:35this land is going to be used
09:37to be used by the children, let's say.
09:39Of course.
09:40And in fact to take care of them.
09:42And in fact to take care of them.
09:43Because, as I explained to you before,
09:45also doing activities
09:47in a degradation context,
09:49in an open space,
09:50has its risks.
09:51And we have activities in AFA,
09:53activities in entities
09:55that require a ...
09:57A security framework.
09:58Is there any political dispute,
10:00Rebeca, in the background?
10:04No, not really.
10:06No.
10:07No, not at all.
10:09No.
10:10There is social tension, let's say.
10:12There is a degradation
10:13of social life
10:14and community life in general.
10:16So there are disputes
10:18with respect to spaces
10:19and the type of organization
10:21that a community wants for itself.
10:23I think that is the tension.
10:27And well,
10:28also in the context of economic,
10:30social, cultural crisis.
10:31Who do you bother?
10:36What?
10:37Who do you bother?
10:38What social actor do you bother,
10:39even without making a name for yourself?
10:41I think that, in general,
10:43I think that what bothers
10:45is the organized way of life.
10:47That anyism is not a possibility.
10:51That is,
10:52that activities have guidelines,
10:54that, in addition,
10:55there must be economic support
10:57to an organization,
10:58is something that bothers.
11:00It bothers that we have a criterion,
11:03a work pedagogy.
11:05Let's say,
11:06it bothers the organizational forms
11:08that try to be equitable.
11:10Yes?
11:11Because you know well
11:12that when ...
11:13Let's say,
11:14when spaces are arbitrarily organized,
11:16and I'm going to talk a little bit about what I hear,
11:18the most poronga is the one in charge.
11:19Well, here it is not.
11:20The strongest law prevails,
11:21as it is.
11:22The social organization,
11:23of course.
11:24So, the social organization requires
11:26consensus,
11:28dialogues,
11:32sharing opinions,
11:33tolerance,
11:34acceptance of what I don't think
11:35I agree so much, let's say.
11:37It requires another conduct,
11:39more civic, democratic.
11:43So, I think that what bothers
11:45is this way
11:47that requires more work,
11:49but that ultimately is what allowed us
11:51for 30 years to build a wonderful organization.
11:53Yes, the strange thing is that,
11:54precisely,
11:55that an institution of 30 years
11:57suddenly enters into a conflict like this.
11:59Because if I were told that they are
12:00just arrived to the neighborhood ...
12:01No, it's cyclical.
12:02There are resistances, but ...
12:03It's cyclical.
12:04No, it's cyclical.
12:05And it has to do with this degradation
12:07that I'm telling you, let's say.
12:09When you talk about degradation,
12:10there are times ...
12:11You who are there in those places,
12:12doing a community job,
12:15what do you see in terms of degradation?
12:17I mean, yesterday it was just known
12:19the dramatic index of poverty
12:21and indigence.
12:22What do you see,
12:23that you are there?
12:24Exactly.
12:26Well, what I notice,
12:27let's say, in principle ...
12:29One moment.
12:30I have a bodyguard.
12:32In principle, to tell you
12:34that what I see
12:36is that poverty is not a ...
12:41Let's say, poverty is not
12:42a lack of resources,
12:44economic access.
12:46It is a degradation of life,
12:48of social life.
12:49So, what I see is that.
12:51It is that, in turn,
12:53the lack of opportunities
12:54and the lack of options
12:56for the children is ...
13:01This is the same situation
13:02that is experienced with the wire, right?
13:04This ...
13:06I mean, I'm talking
13:07and they're surrounding me, right?
13:08I mean, it seems to me
13:09a little coercive.
13:11Can we show people, Leo?
13:14Yes, yes, yes, yes.
13:15Let's see.
13:17What we are going to ask is ...
13:21What we are going to ask is ...
13:22We will be able to hear them,
13:25but with respect
13:27and with dialogue, let's say.
13:30But just that.
13:32Let's see.
13:34Why did the perimeter destroy itself?
13:36Well, first ...
13:38First,
13:39deny everything he said,
13:41because Rolando was talking on TV,
13:43that we are black,
13:44that we are usurpers,
13:46that delinquents.
13:48Here we are all working people.
13:50This building has no owner.
13:55No, no, no.
13:56No, no.
13:58We are here ...
14:01No, what we are ...
14:02Yes, there was a situation
14:04where someone came
14:05and I ...
14:06And I give faith in that.
14:09But what I'm telling you is ...
14:11Let's see.
14:12Why did the perimeter break?
14:14Well, what the organization says ...
14:16I have the papers that are mine.
14:18The land.
14:19The writing they have is apothecary.
14:22It does not work.
14:24We were the usurpers of the land,
14:26because it is from the neighborhood.
14:28Fifty-five years ago, my father
14:30dismantled this field
14:32and made the field,
14:33which is called the Cancha de Vera.
14:35So they, as a foundation ...
14:38What they say,
14:39or at least what he just brought,
14:42is that they have ...
14:44The document they have shown us,
14:46is that this land,
14:47this one where it was made ...
14:49Twenty-seven meters.
14:50Twenty-seven meters,
14:51where the entire perimeter of the wire was made,
14:53belongs to the organization,
14:55not to Rebecca,
14:56but to the Chaco Defenders Organization.
14:58Well, the Chaco Defenders Organization ...
15:00The rest, no.
15:01There are two lands,
15:02she and Ferraro.
15:03Fabián Ferraro,
15:04who is the politician
15:05who wants to keep
15:06the entire land,
15:08and Julio Jiménez,
15:10for their benefit.
15:12Ask if it is a foundation
15:14to honor the children.
15:16No, there is nothing.
15:18The garden ...
15:20Lie.
15:21It's all a lie.
15:22You can come during the whole day,
15:24every day of the week,
15:25to see how many children come to the building.
15:28And everyone pays.
15:29They are from the neighborhood.
15:31There is no one from the neighborhood.
15:32There is no one from the neighborhood.
15:33They are not allowed to come
15:35and take the children of the neighborhood.
15:37They don't pay.
15:38Okay.
15:39But the method of coming
15:41and breaking the wire ...
15:43Who carried it forward?
15:46No, it's not who carried it forward.
15:48They caused the neighborhood kids
15:50to carry it forward.
15:52Why?
15:53Because they provoke them,
15:55because they call them black,
15:57because they are thieves,
15:58they are criminals.
15:59But it is an organization
16:00that has been in the neighborhood for 30 years.
16:02Do you know who founded this organization?
16:04Us.
16:05The neighbors.
16:06The Vera.
16:07On this court.
16:09On this court.
16:10Then that building was taken
16:12and the court was made.
16:14We ...
16:15Of course.
16:16We have put weight by weight
16:18for the foundation to be built.
16:20When Mr. Ferraro
16:22clung to politics ...
16:24And I ask you,
16:25is there any instance
16:26where you can dialogue?
16:28Where I say ...
16:29But that's what justice is for, right?
16:32They don't face us.
16:33Fabián doesn't face us.
16:34Well, I understand ...
16:35Yes, as Rolo Talvez says ...
16:37The lady treated us like drunkards.
16:39They probably have to ...
16:40Well, justice will define it,
16:42if not ...
16:43It has the property of the land ...
16:45Exactly.
16:46And from there ...
16:47The usurpation is made
16:48in the municipality,
16:49in Tierra Civivienda de Moreno,
16:50in the municipality of Moreno.
16:52The lady superintendent knows it
16:55and her collaborators know it.
16:57She was here.
17:00And she gave us the support ...
17:02It must be clarified, Leo,
17:04that the usurpation
17:06is an exercise of property,
17:11almost like taking.
17:13After a period of taking,
17:14the usurpation is made.
17:16If no one claims it.
17:17But if someone has writing,
17:18that is usurpation,
17:19it is not usurpation.
17:21If it is true,
17:22as the gentlemen say,
17:23that they have writing,
17:24it is something else.
17:27Sure.
17:28Here you have to define ...
17:29There are several things.
17:30First, the property
17:31of this first land,
17:32which the organization says
17:33we have the papers
17:34of this first land
17:36that belongs to us
17:37and that's why we were
17:39plowing.
17:40That, obviously,
17:41will be a file
17:42that will open the justice,
17:43the justice will define
17:44if it belongs to them
17:46and there they will have
17:47all the freedom
17:48to bring it closer,
17:50because if it belongs to them,
17:51it is theirs.
17:52Yes, but it is not throwing the plow.
17:54It is not throwing the plow.
17:55The justice invites me
17:57to face it
17:58and that they tell me
17:59this is so, so, so,
18:00that they show me
18:01how things have to be,
18:02the real papers,
18:03not papers that it does politically,
18:06because politically,
18:07that too.
18:08I grab a friend councilor,
18:10I need the papers of the land
18:12and that's it.
18:13That's the important thing,
18:14I think,
18:15and it is a space for the neighborhood,
18:19that serves,
18:20that does not end,
18:21that does not end
18:22the hand of the narcos,
18:24or people who usurp,
18:27that usurps,
18:28that ends,
18:29the hand that does not have to be,
18:31and well,
18:32and if it belongs to someone,
18:33that someone,
18:34well, takes care
18:35of the part that belongs to him
18:36and of the other
18:37that takes care
18:38if it is in a space
18:39of the municipality,
18:40as they just said.
18:41This lady,
18:42who just left,
18:43is the wife of Fabián Ferraro,
18:44that does not leave
18:45to denigrate the neighborhood
18:46because they got up
18:47thanks to what the neighborhood put.
18:49Of course.
18:50They came with a cart.
18:51Maybe.
18:52Fabián Ferraro,
18:53I took off my shoes
18:55and I gave them to him
18:56to play the ball
18:57when something just fell.
18:58The anecdotes are very nice,
18:59but here there is a question
19:00of ownership title,
19:01not of anecdotes.
19:02This was the Chaco Chico.
19:03Of course.
19:04Exactly.
19:05In short,
19:06you are going to have to define it.
19:08Let's do one thing, Leo.
19:09The justice ...
19:11See if you can clarify a little
19:13what it is about
19:15and we'll be right back.