• 2 months ago
Comedian Josh Johnson sits down with WIRED Senior Writer Jason Parham for The Big Interview, breaking down his creative process, the modern world, and staying healthy and sane as a performer in the age of near-endless social media content.Read more: https://www.wired.com/story/josh-johnson-has-become-the-funniest-guy-on-the-internetDirector: Lisandro Perez-ReyDirector of Photography: Constantine EconomidesEditor: Cory Stevens; Louis LalireHost: Jason ParhamGuest: Josh JohnsonLine Producer: Joseph BuscemiAssociate Producer: Brandon WhiteProduction Manager: Peter BrunetteProduction Coordinator: Rhyan LarkCamera Operator: Christopher EustecheGaffer: Vincent CotaSound Mixer: Gabe QuirogaProduction Assistant: Cerina ShippeyPost Production Supervisor: Christian OlguinPost Production Coordinator: Ian BryantSupervising Editor: Doug LarsenAssistant Editor: Justin Symonds
Transcript
00:00A lot of what I do is trying to manage a pretty unhealthy art form.
00:04There's nothing mentally healthy about going in front of a bunch of strangers and being like,
00:08here are my ideas, do you like them?
00:10No?
00:10Silence?
00:11Okay.
00:11I'll just scream in the shower a week from now thinking about it.
00:15Wire sat down with comedian Josh Johnson to discuss comedy in the age of TikTok.
00:19This is The Big Interview.
00:21Break down the anatomy of a Josh Johnson joke for me.
00:31Take me through sort of, does it have a specific structure or arc?
00:34Before I do that, is it weird what I'm doing with my hands?
00:38Because I look like a tiny villain.
00:41People will watch this and be like, what was he doing?
00:44Okay, this feels good.
00:45All right.
00:46I'm also going to keep my elbow on the table like I'm telling you secrets, you know?
00:50I mean, it's just us talking.
00:51All right.
00:52So the anatomy of one of my jokes.
00:56Okay.
00:56I think that for the most part what I try to do is look at whether it's a specific topic in the news
01:03or it's something that I feel very strongly about.
01:06I think about sort of the angles that maybe the audience is coming from and then I try to think
01:11of all of the holes in my logic or the traps that I could fall into.
01:16You know that little game?
01:17Sometimes you win it at the fair where it has the holes in it and there's a little ball that
01:23you're trying to get through a maze to the other side.
01:26That's what I would describe as one of my jokes.
01:29And the ball doesn't always make it to the other side.
01:31Sometimes I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense.
01:33That's my bad.
01:35And so I think that that's the best way I can put it.
01:38As an example, right?
01:39I watched the Olympics and I even did a set on the Australian break dancer, right?
01:45She was dressed like she was from Squid Game.
01:47That's when I was like, I was like, I don't know if you're taking this serious.
01:52I don't know.
01:54I don't know what's about to happen right now.
01:56Because there was a lot of motions.
01:57There were a lot of movements that I had never seen before.
02:00And I've been alive for a while.
02:02And so I was like, that's some real creativity.
02:05But also, is it just bad, right?
02:08Because it's being like universally panned as like, that was horrible.
02:12The judge awarded her zero points.
02:14And I didn't know that was possible.
02:18And so you also try to think of what's the subversive take?
02:21Was it horrible?
02:22Is there a way that I can prove it wasn't horrible?
02:24Because now we're already having an interesting conversation, right?
02:27Now, I did fall in the camp that it was horrible.
02:29So I didn't do that at all.
02:31I think a lot of us were there.
02:32Yeah.
02:32But then there are so many other angles to think about with it of like,
02:36OK, we can joke about this person's performance.
02:40You can try to clown this person.
02:42But every country has to send a representative or two.
02:46So then this person beat other dancers.
02:51Who does she beat?
02:54And so what were they dancing like?
02:57I think using that curiosity to ask more questions and think of different angles,
03:02you know, because maybe if Australia had a better immigration policy,
03:07there would have been some more black people in Australia to be like,
03:10hey, don't.
03:12And I'm not even saying you have to open your borders.
03:14Three black people, three extra black people could have prevented a nationwide disaster.
03:21Right.
03:21And there was a black dude in the background that was like.
03:37So basically, I think that we are all here at one time and we might all witness the same thing.
03:46Some people are going to find that event funny.
03:48Some people are going to find it potentially tragic.
03:50Some people might be annoyed by it after they hear about it for the second time.
03:54So the fact that we can all take different responses away from one event
03:58and the fact that there's no one way to feel about anything
04:02is a sort of diamond of takes and different angles that you can approach something from.
04:08So I try to do that with every joke and every story.
04:12Yeah, it seems like in watching and doing a lot of research for this interview,
04:16going through your TikToks, I was noticing that sort of there's this overarching macro joke,
04:21but then there's sort of all these interior moments within it that you try to hit.
04:24Yeah.
04:25I thought it was really sort of revelatory in that way.
04:27That's the intention.
04:29And sometimes they're not there.
04:30Sometimes it's like, look, I just find this one thing funny and that's it.
04:35I think that I'm finding my way of communicating with the audience and perspective
04:41through trying to hit as many angles as possible for one specific thing.
04:46Is that overwhelming?
04:47Yeah.
04:48It may not even be healthy.
04:50I think that for the most part, a lot of what I do
04:53is like trying to manage what is probably a pretty unhealthy art form.
04:58Okay.
04:59Do you know what I mean?
05:00Yeah.
05:01There's nothing mentally healthy about going in front
05:03of a bunch of strangers at once and trying to get them to like you.
05:08That screams everything I think a psychologist would speak against.
05:12Do you know what I mean?
05:14It's just walking out and being like, here are my ideas.
05:17Do you like them?
05:18No.
05:19You told me no with your silence.
05:21Okay.
05:21I'll just stay up here, continue talking.
05:24You don't like what I'm saying.
05:26And then I'll just file that in my cabinet in the back of the mind.
05:30So I scream in the shower a week from now thinking about it.
05:33You know what I mean?
05:34It's like a lot of it is overwhelming.
05:36But like I said, I think that for so long I was doing jokes and I was writing
05:41and I was trying to engage with people and nobody really knew or cared.
05:46And so I'd much rather have the pressure and the sort of overwhelming aspect
05:51than to just be throwing jokes into the abyss, you know?
05:56If we can a little bit pivoting and talk about sort of the social media of it all.
06:00I'm curious, how has social media changed your relationship to comedy?
06:04I don't know if it has.
06:05Two really big problems that people have, not just comedians,
06:09but just people in general with social is that one,
06:13it either feels like a living, breathing thing or two, you feel like it's your friend.
06:18And if it's either one of those things to you, it can betray you very easily.
06:22If Instagram is supposed to be your friend and it's how you get a lot of your dopamine
06:26and it's just a great experience every time,
06:28then everyone sort of trashing you on Instagram or people not liking what you post
06:35or people not even responding to what you post, not caring at all.
06:38I think that that can take a toll on a person's mental health.
06:42And so I think that the way that I try to not let it affect my relationship with comedy
06:50is that I'm doing comedy for the people that come to the show.
06:54It's a relationship between me and the people that come to the show.
06:58I then share it with people who weren't at the show.
07:00But if they weren't at the show,
07:02they might not have the same feeling as the people that were there.
07:05You know how sometimes you'll go to a concert and people have their phone
07:08and they're recording the concert?
07:10And everyone makes the joke that they're not going to watch that later.
07:12So just watch the concert.
07:14But I have watched that on someone else's phone.
07:16And when they were showing me the concert on the phone,
07:18I was like, must have been nice because I'm not getting anything out of this right now.
07:23Like this is your shaky hand moving and you swear that it's Kendrick.
07:30I can hear a Kendrick song, but I can also hear you going,
07:34so it's like, what is this supposed to be for me, right?
07:38But I think comedy is my relation to the people that are here right now.
07:43And then posting to social is my relation to people who I hope will come to a show one day.
07:48And who I think will enjoy these jokes that I may not do again,
07:52which is another reason why I post, right?
07:54Because I'm not trying to do the identical set over and over.
07:58So when I'm done with a joke, why not share it?
08:01Why not share it with people who I believe will enjoy it?
08:04It's either that or less people get to see it for the end of time.
08:10Like, it's just a joke that I sort of like,
08:12take to the grave outside of me and the people that went to the show, you know?
08:16So no identical sets ever?
08:18Not as far as last year.
08:21I definitely, when I was getting ready for specials in the past,
08:24would do the same set leading up to make sure that the performance of the special was
08:29as tight as it could be.
08:30People talk a lot about crowd work in comedy now and everything.
08:35And I think one of the reasons that crowd work does so well is because
08:38for the people who are at the show, you're making them part of the show
08:41and you're bringing them in into an experience that they won't forget
08:44because it's a singular moment where they were part of the show
08:47and you're giving them a turn, right?
08:50Your videos sort of run counter to how we consume social media.
08:53They often run four to five minutes long,
08:55which feels like a lifetime on TikTok sometimes.
08:58Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty long-winded.
09:02Why do you think they found such an audience in the way that they have?
09:05I think that anything that you find interesting,
09:08there are people like you out in the world.
09:11And so I actually think it's a really refreshing reminder that we're not alone.
09:17I think length is not the real issue.
09:20I think it's just general interest.
09:22And I won't be talking about things that are interesting to everybody all the time,
09:26but I think that when you find genuine interest and enthusiasm in something,
09:30you can bring people into it because they're like,
09:32oh, I don't know about this.
09:33Maybe I will be interested in it.
09:35And so I also think it's indicative of the fact that when you put things out
09:39and you're not putting them out for some result,
09:41you're putting them out because you hope that people will enjoy them, right?
09:45Whether they get one view or they get one million views,
09:47the length is the link for a reason.
09:50And I'm doing my best to connect with people who find joy in what I do.
09:56And so I'm glad that it's worked out.
09:58And my hope is obviously when I put things out that people will watch them.
10:02I can't hold too much attachment to the outcome.
10:06Obviously, I'll notice if tomorrow everything gets one view.
10:09I'd be like, is that just my mom then?
10:12Is just mama watching now?
10:14Because even I should be a view.
10:16So the fact that it's one view and not two,
10:18oh, we must be doing poorly.
10:20But at the same time, I put it out for people to enjoy.
10:23And if no one enjoyed it, then that's my bad.
10:26But as long as they are, I hope to continue making things for them to enjoy.
10:31So talk to me a bit about being a comedian online today.
10:35You're on TikTok, you're on Instagram, on YouTube.
10:38What's your sort of strategy for social output?
10:40I think the general strategy is to, you know,
10:44share the sort of like more topical thoughts of either the day or the week or the big event.
10:50And then break them into as many different pieces as possible.
10:56Because I think that everyone's gonna consume differently.
11:01And I think that obviously certain things will do well on a platform
11:04that won't do as well on another.
11:06You might see something that's posted to YouTube and it does well, right?
11:11And then maybe it even does well with YouTube shorts
11:14when you break it into pieces or something.
11:16But then you post it to like Twitter and it doesn't do well at all.
11:21And you're like, ah, yes, I didn't.
11:23There wasn't enough hate.
11:24I didn't.
11:25I should have rage baited more if I wanted to get a real result.
11:29Because Twitter is the real test.
11:30But I think that just because one thing does something somewhere,
11:35you can't expect it across the board.
11:37And then also I think that in order to sustain myself
11:42and keep creating things that people enjoy,
11:47I have to release attachment from how things are going to go on social.
11:52So it's like I post to share.
11:54But I look at sharing as the way you'd share anything physical.
12:00I think that the digital and the physical are the same, right?
12:03I might want to share with you a peanut butter and pickle sandwich.
12:08And you're like, nah, I'm good.
12:10I'm good, right?
12:12I'm all right.
12:13You know what I mean?
12:14And I think that sometimes jokes work the same way.
12:17And so I think that you obviously try to lean to your strengths on every platform
12:25and if something works, you're probably going to lean into
12:28the way that you did it last time.
12:30And if it doesn't work, that's how you learn and stuff.
12:32So I think that as far as like an editing
12:35or maybe this thumbnail is a good structure or whatever.
12:40But I don't think that for me as like a comic,
12:44I can put too much weight on exactly how things are going online.
12:51Because once again, the show that I'm making is for the people that come.
12:56So you don't read the comments online at all about your…
12:59No, no, I read the comments.
13:01And I think that the comments are important
13:04because my director when I've done specials and stuff like that,
13:07he directed my peacock special and everything.
13:09His name is Jacob Minacci.
13:10And he and I read the comments with different context, right?
13:15So I read the comments to see if people like the jokes, right?
13:19And sometimes it's good because then someone will be like,
13:22come to this place.
13:23And then if I'm coming, obviously you can put like,
13:25hey, I'll be there at this date, whatever, right?
13:28But the way that Jacob put it was,
13:31there's nothing in film that gives the instant feedback that YouTube gives.
13:37With film, you have a movie and you shoot it.
13:42You do all the stuff for a movie.
13:43You cast it, you have everybody shoot it.
13:45You do the post-production, everything.
13:47You wrap it up, you send it off.
13:48The studio likes it.
13:49You put it out.
13:50Then you do press and everything.
13:51And then the press is a lead up of anticipation, excitement for the movie.
13:55The movie comes out, right?
13:56People go and see the movie.
13:58But you still have to wait for the box office.
14:00You still have to wait for the reviews.
14:01You still have to wait for all this different feedback
14:04for a thing that's an idea that you had a long time ago
14:06that you created that you watched come to life.
14:09Whereas with YouTube, the second you post,
14:14somebody could be like, sucks.
14:16It's bad.
14:19Obviously, I have to take all of it with a grain of salt
14:20because whether it's actually bad, whether it is categorically bad,
14:24whether I put out a set that is the comedy equivalent of the Aussie break dancer
14:30or if I put out a set that's like people love it and they think it's amazing or whatever,
14:36they'll tell me and they'll tell me now.
14:38I'll know immediately.
14:39Learning to discern what's just general feedback and general love or hate
14:45because I don't think you can lean too much into either.
14:47I think either breed a sort of delusion of yourself,
14:51one negative and one positive.
14:52I think that the overall feedback is what lets you know you're on the right track.
14:58Rob Markman
14:58Building on that sort of final question,
15:01is it weird being a comedian in the age of social media?
15:05It almost seems like you have to have different instincts to succeed today.
15:09Everything is magnified.
15:10Everyone's competing for everyone else's attention.
15:13Even if you aren't a comedian, right?
15:14Everybody's sort of chasing trends.
15:16You brought up crowd work.
15:17You're seeing that a lot now on social media and TikTok and Instagram.
15:20I'm wondering how is sort of your relationship within all of this?
15:24I just think there are different opportunities, you know?
15:27I think that for every era of comedy, it has been difficult.
15:32And I think that for every era of comedy,
15:34there have been people who, through whatever that status quo way of coming up,
15:40came up first and are kind of the reason that you do some of these things.
15:44So back in the day when Johnny Carson was hosting The Tonight Show,
15:47you get a Carson set.
15:49You do really well.
15:50Carson invites you over to the couch.
15:52He's talking to you.
15:53Now all of a sudden you get free airtime on top of your set.
15:56People would be set for the year as far as touring went, right?
16:00And then Carson leaves The Tonight Show and now people are like,
16:03oh, what do we do?
16:04How are we going to sell our tickets?
16:06What's next, right?
16:07And then you had people that still kept to late night,
16:10but then you had people that were doing sort of subversive things.
16:14Oh, I'm going to tape my own special, put it out on VHS,
16:18and just mail it to a bunch of networks and see if one of them likes it.
16:22Maybe one of them likes it.
16:23Then getting a special, you know?
16:25And we're talking like a couple of decades removed from each other.
16:28But then getting a special was the way to set yourself up
16:32for the whole year touring tickets and stuff like that.
16:34Every form to get people to buy tickets will change.
16:38And the through line of all of it is that you're a comedian doing comedy.
16:43And as long as you're doing that and you're doing it for the people who show up,
16:47you're going to grow.
16:48It's not as if all of this incredible success is inevitable,
16:52but I think a general success at doing comedy is inevitable.
16:56If you are a painter, if you're a writer, if you're a dancer, if you're an actor,
17:00there are more accessible ways through the internet than ever before.
17:04I know that that means that the barrier to entry is lower than ever.
17:08It's so crowded, yeah.
17:09But I think that quality isn't crowded.
17:12I think if you continuously provide quality for people,
17:16not only will you stand out, but I think opportunities will come.
17:19And I think that people talk about networking stuff,
17:22but if you build friendships with other people who produce quality,
17:26there's no way that you won't succeed.
17:28I want to make quality for the people that come to the show
17:32and I want everyone else that I share it with to enjoy it.
17:35But people sort of lose their minds over like,
17:37well, can we get to 10 million?
17:39Can we get to a billion?
17:40Can we get to whatever?
17:41It's like that stuff will either come or it won't.
17:44There's no way to guarantee it and there's no strategy good enough to guarantee it.
17:47But I mean, it is healthy to set goals for yourself
17:49when you're sort of setting out at the beginning of it
17:52and you should have sort of benchmarks, right?
17:54Yeah, but I think those benchmarks, anything that is not up to you,
17:57in my opinion, shouldn't be a goal.
18:00All I can control is did the people coming to the show have a phenomenal time?
18:06Is this maybe the best comedy show they've ever been to?
18:08And if somebody tells me that after the show,
18:11this is a good example of a goal to me.
18:13So yeah, there are goals and there are benchmarks,
18:15but all the goals, all the benchmarks have to be things
18:17that you yourself can produce, right?
18:21I want to win all these awards.
18:22Those are clearly not up to me, you know what I mean?
18:25I want a lot of things.
18:26I want to be your size.
18:28When I met you, I was like, man, if I were your size, I'd be a problem.
18:33I wouldn't be polite at all.
18:35If I was your size, everyone would know what I think about them.
18:38You know what I mean?
18:38If I was as funny as you, I'm sure I'd be a problem too.
18:42Maybe, but if we switched for a day,
18:46you would get a call from me and be like,
18:48listen, I got locked up.
18:49It's not even my fault, okay?
18:52Well, thank you, Josh.
18:52Thank you for the big interview.
18:53This has been great.
18:54Yeah, great to meet you.
18:56Thanks for having me.
18:57Thanks for doing this.

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