#NationalAssembly #ConstitutionalAmendment #Senate #QaziFaezIsa #JusticeMansoorAliShah #SupremeCourt
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00:00On the 26th, Syed Mansoor Ali Shah will be Pakistan's new Chief Justice.
00:06You are saying that Vukla will not accept any such amendment and on the 26th,
00:12the new Chief Justice, who is Mansoor Ali Shah, will be appointed by Vukla.
00:20So, he will not be accepted as Chief Justice. Is this a correct statement, sir?
00:23I was listening to your programme and your intro.
00:26It was very good.
00:29I think that the constitution is not a treaty between parliamentary parties.
00:38It is a treaty between the people of Pakistan
00:43on how to live our common life.
00:48Now, if the people of Pakistan do not know what they are being bound by,
00:57then this is not right.
01:03The second thing to keep in mind is that the constitution made by the people of Pakistan
01:13had a concept of separation of powers.
01:19Executive, Judiciary and Legislature.
01:26Parliament does not have the right to punish me or you or to run our case.
01:35Judiciary does not have the right to make a law.
01:39The right of the Executive is to look at the law and make a decision based on what the Judiciary has decided.
01:50Now, there is a limitation on the powers of the Parliament.
01:59The Parliament cannot say that we have abolished the Judiciary,
02:04we have abolished the Executive and we are Supreme. No.
02:10This is not the concept of the rule of law.
02:14So, there is an implied limitation on the powers of the Judiciary.
02:22It cannot make the constitution zero.
02:26The way it cannot make it zero, it cannot change its basic structure.
02:36So, I think I have not read the package,
02:40but what I have heard in the newspapers…
02:44Mr. Malik, let me ask you some of his doubts.
02:49For example, five judges will be elected by the Chief Justice from among the senior panel.
02:54I was listening to Mansoor Ali Shah's statement that you will consider Mansoor Ali Shah to be the Chief Justice.
02:59Is this a correct statement and how do you suggest this?
03:02Look, this principle was decided in 1996 in the case of Al-Jihad for the expectation of seniority.
03:14After that, in the case of Malik Asad Ali, when Ajmal Mian Sahib became the Chief Justice,
03:22it was given in the spirit of the constitution in the 18th Amendment under the principle of seniority.
03:30It was not because seniority by itself is a criterion.
03:39It was so that there is no nepotism, so that the court is free.
03:46Everyone should know who the senior most is.
03:48I think that the person who can become the second senior judge in the Supreme Court,
04:02is he not capable of becoming the Chief?
04:05Will you remember after 10 years, 5 years, 6 years that he cannot become the Chief of the Supreme Court?
04:12In my opinion, on the 26th, Syed Mansoor Ali Shah will be the permanent Chief Justice of Pakistan.
04:23Although I have been a lawyer for Qazi Faiz Ishaq, he is my Chief Justice till the 25th.
04:29After the 26th, Mansoor Ali Shah will be my Chief.
04:31Sir, but after the government passes this amendment,
04:34will it be possible for any of its nominees to be included in that panel?
04:39And it is possible that they will pick someone else from it.
04:42Then what will happen in the case of Surat-e-Hal?
04:43The amendment has been passed, now it will become a law.
04:46Look, every amendment has been decided in the case of Rawalpindi Bar Association,
04:52which was made by the military courts.
04:54Every amendment is not legal, right?
05:02So, in my own mind, it is possible that I am mistaken.
05:08I think that this will be an attack on the freedom of the court.
05:14How many years has it been since 1996?
05:1914 years, 48 years.
05:22After 48 years, if the government does not suit the time,
05:26a Chief Justice or a future Chief Justice,
05:29then they keep making committees.
05:31Sir, after making a committee, a Chief Justice selects a person
05:35through the committee after this law,
05:37and he is not the same Chief Justice that you are talking about.
05:40The five people who will be selected,
05:43whether they are useless or not,
05:45they should have been removed from the Supreme Court five years ago.
05:51Sir, but if…
05:53I don't understand the logic of this.
05:55The logic of this is that the five people who are capable,
05:58instead of the seniority principle,
06:00they will get competence, merit.
06:02We can select any of the five competent people.
06:05We don't want to bound it on the basis of seniority.
06:07No, who will select this competence?
06:10Tell me.
06:12Sir, that committee will be made,
06:14in which all those people will be selected.
06:16Are these men learned in the law?
06:20If they were not competent five years ago,
06:25then they should have been removed five years ago.
06:31I don't buy that logic of that argument.
06:34That you keep a man for five years and then say
06:37that now we will select which of these five is good.
06:41And then, see, this closes the door of nepotism.
06:46Sometimes, for the larger interest,
06:49the larger interest is transparency.
06:52For transparency, you could have had Einstein,
06:57the senior puny judge.
06:59But you will not make him, right?
07:02Okay.
07:03So, as a result, if the government appoints,
07:06do you think there will be any resistance?
07:08Because we are seeing that the Supreme Court Bar Association
07:10and the Pakistan Bar Council, more or less,
07:12whatever their stance is,
07:14they are close to the government's stance.
07:16They have not yet taken any such stance.
07:18See, I will tell you.
07:21In 2007, Allah gave me this honor
07:25that I was the president of the Supreme Court Bar.
07:28The movement does not run from the Supreme Court Bar
07:31or the Pakistan Bar Council.
07:34The movement runs from the bars of the districts.
07:37The movement runs from those small bar associations.
07:41The movement runs from the high court bar associations.
07:44You go today and I say with conviction,
07:47every time you have a referendum in the association,
07:51every time you have a referendum in the association,
07:54on the 26th, who do you want as the Chief Justice?
07:58If you do not take Mansoor Ali Shah's name in 90%,
08:02then I will leave the lawyer.
08:05Right.
08:06Apart from this, Mr. Malik,
08:07another suggestion is being brought by the government,
08:09the establishment of a legal court,
08:11in which an ex-retired judge is appointed as the Chief Justice.
08:14He should look at all the legal matters.
08:16And the other cases that are lying with you in the backlog,
08:21he should look at the Supreme Court.
08:23So, a new legal court should be created.
08:25I thought that in the practice and procedure act,
08:29it has been decided that if there is a constitutional question,
08:34its five members will form a larger bench.
08:37This is the strength of the Supreme Court.
08:40This can be increased by ordinary legislation.
08:44He should take his Chief Justice in confidence.
08:47And increase it.
08:49Do you know what the situation is in Korea?
08:53There are two such courts in Korea.
08:55One is the Constitutional Court.
08:57The other is the Supreme Court.
08:59One court gives a decision against the other.
09:02The other gives a decision against the other.
09:04What happens is paralysis.
09:06Do you want this?
09:08Or do we not want judicial stability?
09:11Right.