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00:00Burkina Faso's junta leader still hasn't spoken since what's believed to be one of the worst
00:04massacres in the history of that West African state.
00:09Victims' families claim at least 400 killed when jihadists opened fire last weekend on
00:15civilians digging defensive trenches for the army outside the north-central village of
00:20Barcelogo.
00:22Al-Qaeda affiliate Jamaa al-Nusrat claims nearly 300 killed.
00:28In a statement that was seen this Thursday, it insists it only targeted militia members
00:34allied with the military, not civilians.
00:37For more, let's cross to Berlin.
00:39Ulf Lessig is director of the Sahel program at the Konrad Adenauer Foundation think tank.
00:46Thanks for being with us here on France 24.
00:52So far, what have you been able to piece together about this massacre?
00:57It's extremely difficult.
00:58I mean, Burkina Faso is more and more like a black box.
01:02I go there still, but I mean, journalists can't, and people are often afraid to talk.
01:08What is clear, it was an attack from GINEM, the force you mentioned, Al-Qaeda-linked,
01:13and apparently after people had been asked to build trenches for the army.
01:18But I mean, like, extremely difficult to pin anything down with numbers of victims
01:24or what happened exactly.
01:26Victims' families are very angry.
01:29They put out a statement the next day among their complaints that they were forced to
01:34dig these trenches, the civilians were, and thus that made them targets.
01:38The other one is how slow rescue efforts took.
01:42It was several hours before the village was reached.
01:46I mean, this happens in an area northeast of Burkina Faso where the government control
01:51has been very, very weak, where jihadists are very, very active, and I mean, the country
01:55is in a desperate situation.
01:57I understand victims, but also many people in Burkina Faso want the army to fight, too.
02:03You're just showing the map.
02:04Maybe 50 percent of the country out of government control, so there is a will from many Burkina
02:09Beir, I mean, that they want the army to continue fighting.
02:13Whether their means are the right ones is another question.
02:16But it's difficult just to pin the blame only on the army.
02:20It's, I mean, information is too sketchy, and many, many Burkina Beir, they just want
02:25to have their country back and end this security crisis.
02:28The junta leader, Ibrahim Traore, he's been silent since the massacre.
02:35What do you make of that?
02:36Yeah, they are not, they don't like to confirm any incidents like this.
02:41It doesn't fit into this patriotic narrative that the government forces are making progress
02:48in their fight against jihadists.
02:51That makes it also then very difficult to corroborate any information if the government
02:56stays silent.
02:58The published reports also talk about people being forced to enroll in the military, particularly
03:07those that are not in favor in Ouagadougou.
03:10Yeah, there have been cases of journalists or even members in the judiciary or department
03:18who have been drafted into the war effort.
03:23Yeah, that's been confirmed by people.
03:27They have been recruiting also non-professional forces, so-called voluntary forces, VDPs,
03:35some 50,000 or so.
03:37I mean, it's all part of the government effort to try to claim their country back.
03:42Whether they succeed in it, we don't know, but it's part of this focus to throw anything
03:48at the military effort.
03:50So we had a statement this Thursday from the European Union condemning the massacre.
03:56But beyond statements, what can the EU do?
03:59What can France do?
04:00What can Germany do?
04:01Yeah, I mean, France is out.
04:04Their relationship is broken.
04:06Germany and some other European Union members, such as Italy, Spain, they still keep lines
04:12open.
04:13But I mean, the government has allied itself with Russia.
04:17They've brought in Russian fighters.
04:20They also bought equipment from various countries.
04:23So I mean, it's good from a European perspective just to keep channels open.
04:28There might be time when we have more influence, and I don't think the Russians will really
04:33make a difference.
04:34So it's good for us as Europeans just to keep a channel open, see what we can do.
04:40One has also to say in the defense of Dauphine-Boukina Faso that the country had approached the European
04:45Union for many, many years, asking for weapons and other activities, training, equipment.
04:52They weren't given to them because of the human rights records, fair point.
04:56But then you can't criticize them for turning to Russia, or Turkey, where they get drones
05:02or weapons or fighters, whatever they think they need in this desperate situation.
05:07How long will the honeymoon period with Russia last?
05:11Really hard to say.
05:12Also, like here in Mali, in Niger, I mean, so far they, you know, they're bolstering
05:18their case with a soft power campaign, you know, advertising Russia as something, you
05:23know, non-colonial, you know, opposite to France or Europe.
05:28For the time being, it works.
05:29You know, people don't like the old elites, elected ones who were close to France or Europe.
05:35But ultimately, you know, Russians, they haven't deployed so many, you know, mercenaries.
05:40You know, it's just a fraction of what France, for example, had in Mali.
05:44So their success, you know, will be really doubtful.
05:48And at some point, at least I hope that the honeymoon with Russia is over, and then Europe
05:53has a role to play again.
05:55Ulf Leysen, many thanks for being with us from Berlin.
05:59Sure.
06:00Stay with us.
06:01There's much more to come.
06:02More news plus today's business and sports.