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00:00 Now today, Spain's Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez is meeting the Palestinian Authority Prime
00:05 Minister Mohamed Mustafa a day after Madrid, along with Ireland and Norway, recognised
00:12 the state of Palestine. The move has been welcomed by some Palestinians but slammed
00:17 by Israel, quote, "as a reward for Hamas". Well to discuss, I'm delighted now to welcome
00:24 live to the programme the Foreign Minister of Spain, José Manuel Álvarez. Welcome to
00:30 you, sir. Thank you very much for finding the time for us.
00:34 Thank you.
00:35 First of all, just tell us simply why recognise a Palestinian state now?
00:44 Because we have to protect the two-state solution and to recognise the state of Palestine is
00:49 the best way to do it. We all know that the formula to bring definitive peace, both for
00:56 Israelis and for Palestinians, for the whole Middle East, is two states, the state of Palestine
01:01 and the state of Israel, that live together in good neighbourhood and guarantee each other's
01:06 security. This is the right time to do it. And also because of justice for the Palestinian
01:12 people, they cannot be condemned to be eternally a people of refugees. And when we see 1,200
01:21 Israelis killed on October 7, more than 35,000 Palestinians killed in the beginning of the
01:27 war, it's also a matter of pure humanity.
01:32 And there are Palestinians who've welcomed what you've done, but it is a symbolic move,
01:39 isn't it? How can recognition make a tangible difference for Palestinians right now, if
01:44 I may, given the destruction we're seeing in Gaza that has meant, I mean, effectively
01:50 the entire enclave is unlivable. We have ongoing settlement expansion in the West Bank. A Palestinian
01:57 state territorially is less viable now than it's ever been, surely.
02:05 Just symbolism is important in foreign policy. The Palestinians themselves have been asking
02:11 for this recognition because it makes a great difference the day they will sit again in
02:16 the diplomatic table that there will be two sovereign states discussing. And at the same
02:24 time, this is the beginning of a process. And we are calling also for a peace conference
02:30 in which we will stop talking about the two-state solution and we will focus on implementing
02:36 the two-state solution. And for us, that's very clear. That means that as soon as peace
02:42 gets back, we have to put at the one single Palestinian authority, both the West Bank
02:47 and Gaza. We have to give continuity to the territory with a corridor. We must give it
02:53 an exit to the sea with a port in Gaza. And we must give a capital in East Jerusalem.
02:59 And of course, all that will need a massive financial plan. Spain is ready to put his
03:05 part. We will push European Union to do it. At the end, we have to realize that the hope
03:12 of Palestinians for a Palestinian state is completely interlinked with the security of
03:19 Israel. And the fact of having a state of Palestine will also help to normalize the
03:26 relation of all Arab countries with Israel, which we also want.
03:31 You talked about this being the right time. You are a group of three European countries
03:37 that recognize the state of Palestine yesterday. There are though lots of your European counterparts
03:43 who don't agree with you. France says for one, it isn't the right time. So I wonder,
03:48 do you feel now that you're out of step with your European allies or perhaps from the conversations
03:55 you're having with them behind the scenes, the sense that you get is actually you're
03:59 leading the way and other European countries will follow your lead?
04:05 We are at the heart, in the center of what is needed, both in the international community.
04:11 143 countries have already recognized Palestine. With us three, we are already 146. And also
04:20 in European Union, eight European countries, the last one Sweden, had already recognized
04:25 Palestine. With Ireland and Spain, we are 10. Tomorrow, Slovenia is following us. So
04:32 we will be 11. More and more countries are following the example that Spain is setting.
04:40 And we only have to listen to the partners of peace in all camps. What they are asking
04:47 is to help them to implement the two-state solution. And once again, this is for the
04:53 peace, this is for justice. But when we see the bombing the last two nights over Gaza,
05:00 this is also a matter of pure human dignity.
05:03 All right. I want to talk about Israel's reaction to what you've done, if I may. And before
05:10 we do, let's listen to the Israeli foreign minister. This was something he said on the
05:15 platform X yesterday. We've had it voiced. Let's take a listen.
05:21 We will not remain silent in the face of a government that rewards terror. The days of
05:26 the Inquisition are over. Today, the Jewish people have a sovereign and independent state
05:30 and no one will force us to convert our religion or threaten our existence. Those who harm
05:35 us, we will harm them in return.
05:38 And look, your Israeli counterpart not mincing his words there, he calls your government
05:45 one that rewards terror. Your response to that, first of all?
05:53 It's ridiculous. It's false. And he knows it. We have condemned the terrorist attack
05:58 of a terrorist organisation like Hamas. We have been calling since the very beginning
06:05 for the liberation of all hostages. I have met with families, relatives of them, several
06:10 times already. And it's very clear that the recognition, it's also a way of strengthening
06:17 the national Palestinian authority. Hamas is not a partner for peace. Hamas does not
06:22 accept the two-state solution. Hamas wants war, so they cannot be a player. And certainly
06:29 is not our partner for peace. But Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people. The
06:34 legitimate leadership of the Palestinian people is the national Palestinian authority. Our
06:40 partner, a good partner for peace. I hosted today for the first time ever in history the
06:46 Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of Palestine. And he was conveying a message
06:52 of peace based on the two-state solution. I realise very well that my Israeli colleague
06:58 has been trying to provoke Spain, Norway, Ireland in these last days. But we are not
07:04 going to fall in any provocation. We want to continue talking about the same things.
07:11 A permanent ceasefire, the liberation of all hostages, the access, the unimpeded access
07:17 of humanitarian aid, and the two-state solution, which is justice for the Palestinian people.
07:25 And it also meets the legitimate claims of security of Israeli people. And I want to
07:30 recall that the Israeli people are friends of the Spanish people, and the state of Israel
07:36 is a friend of the state of Spain. Clearly, though, the Israeli government not happy at
07:42 all with this. Again, in that same ex-post that we just played, the foreign minister
07:49 saying, those who harm us, we will harm them in return. I wonder whether you have a sense
07:56 of what the Israeli foreign minister means by that.
08:01 I have no clue. You should ask him.
08:03 Well, I may well do if he accepts our invitation to join us on the programme. I'm interested,
08:08 have you had any contact yourself or anybody in your office with your Israeli counterparts
08:13 in the foreign ministry since this recognition formally took place yesterday?
08:18 No, it was yesterday. I mean, it has been only a few hours. Today, we have received
08:25 the Prime Minister of Palestine, the Foreign Affairs Minister of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey,
08:33 Jordan, the Secretary General of the Organisation for the Islamic Cooperation. They came to
08:39 Spain to thank us for that recognition, and also to discuss the best way to implement
08:45 the two-state solution and peace for the Middle East. At the end is the common objective of
08:51 everyone. The recognition, and I want to make this very clear once again, the recognition
08:57 is not against anyone. And the least of them, Israel. Israel and the Israeli people are
09:03 friends of the Spanish people.
09:07 You say they're friends of the Spanish people. Spain has long championed Palestinian statehood,
09:13 hasn't it, long before this particular war in Gaza. Is that part of your motivation in
09:19 doing this? Are you recognising a Palestinian state with a Spanish audience in mind?
09:27 We have championed the two-state solution and we are definitely world champions on the
09:32 cause of peace. That's why we have recognised the state of Palestine.
09:37 A final question for you. I'd like to move on to another foreign policy issue, if I may,
09:41 and that's Ukraine. On Monday of this week, your government announced that it is to provide
09:47 Ukraine with €1 billion in military aid this year. Just spell out for us what it is
09:52 that you hope that that really significant chunk of money will do.
09:59 Ukraine is a very crucial moment in which needs the help of all of us to defend its
10:05 sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its democracy, its freedom, all the innocent civilians
10:10 that are being killed in a war of aggression from Russia. For the exact same principles
10:17 that we have recognised the state of Palestine and we want peace and the two-state solution,
10:23 we are backing Ukraine because we are defenders of the United Nations Charter and its principle.
10:30 That's why we have decided to do this agreement with the Ukrainian government.
10:35 Jose Manuel Alvarez, a pleasure to talk to you, sir. Thank you very much.
10:41 Thank you.
10:42 That was Spain's foreign minister speaking to me live here on the programme.