'Lessons in Chemistry' Actor Aja Naomi King + Costume Designer Mirren Gordon-Crozier | The Process
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00:00Hello, everyone. We are here with The Process. My name is Asia Naomi King from the Apple
00:12TV Plus series, Lessons in Chemistry, and I am here with our fabulous Emmy-nominated
00:19costume designer, Mirren Gordon-Crosier. So, first off, congratulations. Thank you.
00:32You too. I can't believe it. Thank you. This is amazing. Like totally just, you know, just
00:43go off the top of my head. Like when you started this show, would you have imagined like, oh,
00:48yeah, I'm going to walk away with this with an Emmy nomination? No way. No, never. It's pretty,
00:55man, pretty, like, it's pretty dream, dreamy, to be honest, and surreal. So, I mean,
01:03well, very honored. But so, yeah, it was such a beautiful process. And to think like,
01:10it was still very, like, in the midst of COVID when we were doing this. I was just thinking
01:18about that earlier today, how like, I felt like we didn't get to have as much contact
01:24once filming started, because everything was like, you have to be tested. And yeah,
01:30you're still doing like the protocol stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Just crazy, right? That's another level of
01:36complication to it. But I mean, we, you had so many fittings, I feel like we had like,
01:45oh, like, I mean, you were so kind to give us all your time.
01:51I mean, this wasn't even kindness. It was pure joy. And that was another thing I was thinking
01:57about today, how my first fitting with you was really my introduction into this world,
02:02because it was the first time I saw anything. And then walking into that fitting space,
02:08there were all these beautiful boards up with these gorgeous images. And it was just like,
02:14whoa, like, this is the world we're creating. This is what we're doing. Like, how do you
02:19like, how does the process begin for you to even be able to put all of that together?
02:24Um, yeah, I mean, I think, first of all, like the most important thing for me,
02:31like for actors, or getting actors prepared as well, is like making sure we do have those boards
02:36and for you to be able to come in and like, I always have a little too many racks of clothing,
02:42which can be like intimidating, but also it's like, you never know what you're gonna find
02:46in the fitting as well. So it's good to have more options. And so yeah, I mean, I guess,
02:52as far as the research goes, obviously, I read this, you know, I read the book, and I read the
02:58script. And I just go into like a deep dive of research images, like with Harriet, I went into
03:07like, Gordon Parks, and Carrie Mae Weems, who's like a photographer from that time.
03:14Yes. And, and really, like with Harriet, for me was, it was harder to find images, I would,
03:23you know, as you can imagine, like, compared to, let's say, like, Elizabeth, you know, we have,
03:28like, so much research, you know, on that kind of, you know, lots of effort. Exactly, exactly,
03:37things like that. And more like film references for her, whereas your character was really more
03:43like documentary photography. I do remember seeing like some Dorothy Dandridge images.
03:50Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, there was, there's definitely some there. And then,
03:56obviously, just like researching what kind of textiles and color palette to put you in. And I
04:01think my main focus with you and Zot and Calvin was like, you're really kind of a triangle. And so
04:11bringing you guys together without, well, obviously, you and Elizabeth didn't know each
04:17other, but you're brought together by this, like, unforeseen circumstance. So some sort of
04:23subconscious, like a similarity. So, so definitely with you two, I separated your color palettes from
04:34let's say, like the, the secretaries at her work, or like the traditional 1950s women color palette,
04:42like the pastels and all that stuff. And I really focused on like, more like the Kodachrome colors,
04:47of red and yellows. And also like, there's such interesting color combos as well, you know,
04:57including as, as you remember, and we did pull a lot from like the 40s as well, which
05:03the color, the color combinations were so interesting. Like, I don't know if you remember
05:06this one dress that you wore to church, and it was brown, and I had a green band and crochet top,
05:14like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, and I dreamed about it.
05:18And, and I found it in two different styles. Remember, we couldn't choose which one.
05:25Yes, like which way to go. They were both so beautiful.
05:28Yeah, but like, but finding those kind of, yeah, those, I mean, completely unique,
05:34nothing I've ever seen before, like brought tears to my eyes, kind of looking at these,
05:39these dresses, right? I mean, and so having that like visceral thing, I guess, with like,
05:48your wardrobe and Elizabeth, and like, whether it was an image or textile or, you know, or something
05:58we found, like, if we got lucky enough to find a costume house, having that, like, I have to have
06:05this, like, people need to see this, the world needs to see this dress or this fabric or whatever
06:11it was. When Calvin first moved in, I hadn't seen him yet, just the moving truck. So I go over there
06:19with a welcome to the neighborhood pie. And I hear Charlie Parker playing from inside. And I'm like,
06:24oh, this family has got taste. So imagine my surprise when the only white boy in a five block
06:32radius answers the door. Did you ever see him dance? I saw him once through the window and
06:42never let him live it down. Oh, yeah. A lot of shoulders, a lot of head.
07:02Hmm.
07:08So can you now explain to me why someone might need an industrial grade lab in their kitchen?
07:15I have to finish our research.
07:23I'm, I'm a ticking clock.
07:33You're pregnant. I can't do it. You can't. I can't. No one can do it. But then you expand.
07:46You think you can't do it and you do it anyway. That's being a mother.
07:51I would say there was something about like, you know, the outfits between me and Lewis and Brie.
08:05It's like, you know, like you were saying, like the secretaries, there was something always.
08:09And also in their hair and makeup, it was like something kind of like poppy and like almost
08:14like, like just not as grounded. There was something very grounding in the way we,
08:20as if we were truly a part of the world, you know, so, yeah, yeah, they were.
08:26Yeah, exactly. The secretaries and the friend frasks of the show were mimicking what like
08:35they were advertising and, you know, Sears or catalog or whatever kind of magazine they were
08:42reading, where I think you and Elizabeth were more utilitarian in a way. And obviously you had
08:50like bigger fish to fry than worrying about like the newest fashion. So, you know, I think you had
08:58like one suit, you kind of wore a lot to work and a couple pair of shoes that you repeated. It wasn't
09:04you weren't constantly wearing like new things, a lot of like different combinations, you know,
09:11recycling a lot of the same wardrobe, which I think you would have done in real life, too.
09:16So yeah, which is so beautiful how how your design really fed into the reality of these characters.
09:24And I know it gave me so much as an actor, like being able to to pull from that and rely on that
09:30because, you know, just what you wear, it's like, yes, these are my work shoes, because why would I
09:35have more than one pair? Yeah, that's not value. You know, it's like, yeah, just being really
09:42grounded in this in this value system of who these people truly are and how their wardrobe reflects
09:48that. Yeah. Like you did a magnificent job of that. Well, I think it's like a fine line. Well,
09:54thank you for saying that. And I think it's such a fine line between me like something being boring
09:59and and then finding like the little details which just makes it pop or makes it stand out
10:09and makes it realistic without being too stylized. It's quite a hard line, you know, and I think we
10:15like made a good choice, made good choices in that respect as well. It's not about me. It's
10:23it's not about Elizabeth and Harriet. This protest is about people all over this country
10:37struggling to be seen, begging to be treated with dignity. You're always talking about the
10:43things that keep women down, but who does that include? Have you looked at your audience lately?
10:48Now, I'm I'm working my corner of the ring, but you you've got something almost no one has.
10:56You have a platform. What you say matters. And what you don't say matters just as much.
11:06You want to make it up to me? Think about the kind of person you want to be.
11:10How did you how did you feel about wearing all the undergarments?
11:18I love them. I it was really it was very festive for me. I know. I know. You know,
11:26for the record, you wore a bullet bra. Did you end up wearing a girdle ever? You did wear girdle?
11:31Yeah, I think I did have on like a mini girl and and then we would always have on the stockings
11:37and everything. Yeah. And it was. It just really takes you into a different time, which is and you
11:46see how restricted they they had to be as well. It shifts your movement in this really like talking
11:54about all of a sudden I'm standing up tall. You know? Yeah. But just just the influence of fashion
12:04and these characters. And so like so talk to me about talk to me about Dior and the influence
12:12there when it came to to the fashion of Brie's character and especially her lab coat.
12:19Well, I was just really inspired by this one show I saw in Paris. I'm not sure if you ever
12:25saw it, but he had they had this like traveling Dior show and it was in London and maybe New York
12:31or whatever. I was lucky enough. I was like visiting Paris and I saw it in Paris and you walk
12:34in and it's like this entire room just filled with white dresses and on mannequins. And the reason
12:43they did that was because he did all his samples and in white muslin. And so that obviously one
12:49does that before they make it in the real fabric is real fabric is expensive and all that kind of
12:54stuff. And if you ruin it, you know. So I when thinking about these lab coats and how we would
13:02have her wear them on the show and how she would they would kind of evolve from the lab coat she
13:07wore at Hastings or the one she wore like cooking at home. I I just sort of racked my brain on like
13:13how can we make these different and utilitarian at the same time? And the Dior show kind of popped
13:20into my head. And I really I just yeah, I was sort of like an aha moment and being like, OK,
13:29I'm not copying Dior, but like that whole sort of idea of using one fabric, you know, similar
13:37silhouettes and just literally changing like the tiniest detail, whether it was like
13:43black, black piping or black had one that had a scarf through the neck, through the collar and
13:52just different sort of like fastenings and ways of closing it. And it seemed very Zott in the sense
13:58that it was, you know, utilitarian and like simple and straightforward, but also just really.
14:09Yeah, slightly different, I guess. It wasn't too frivolous, but it was.
14:15Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And that was, I think, a really nice nuance there in kind of the line
14:22that you tread with with all these characters. It's like it's it's not frivolous, but it is
14:28very fashionable, like like the way everyone looks. It is it is this I can't help but compare
14:35everything to today. And so looking at clothing, then it's like everything feels so elevated,
14:40you know, because of the way it's in everything. I wanted to ask you, I was I was really curious
14:46about this, like when it comes to your design for the wardrobe for everyone, like what role like
14:53once you know how the DP wants to like use color and everything in the show and the design, how
15:01will that influence or shift what you are planning for the characters?
15:08It really does influence a lot. I mean, I like generally do find out like if there's like a tint
15:14or a grade that they're going to put on, you know, after coloring, you know, in post or whatever
15:24their lenses are and things like that. So like if it was if they tend to go more blue, then I
15:30know what color she's with that. So like because sometimes color black kind of is like eaten up by
15:36blues sort of things like that. So, yeah, that influences a lot. And then definitely sets. I mean,
15:44obviously, like we had such a great production design and the lessons in chemistry set,
15:51the pink one was so funny that I think the white worked well with it because it was,
15:57you know, it was something that she didn't really like change too much.
16:00Like, but she can she could kind of change her wardrobe to be what she has. She had a little bit
16:06more control over what she wore rather than like, yes, in the background. So was there anything
16:13like daunting about this series? Like speaking of getting into character for you? Oh, yeah.
16:19You know, I mean, truly what you did do what you created costume wise did so much of the work
16:27for me in terms of like my like physicality for for this character, because one of the things
16:33that I did think about for myself was I didn't want to feel like present day. I didn't I didn't
16:42energetically or vocally or physically want to come off as bad. And so being able to inhabit
16:50the clothing and the wig and the makeup makes a huge difference. And I kind of wanted to change
16:57the vocal quality of my voice. Yeah. Yeah. Your voice completely changed. It was so good.
17:05Thank you. Yeah, it was like, what would Harriet sound like, you know, and and this isn't a time
17:13where it was like to be educated, you know, and to be taken seriously. What what do you need to
17:20sound like in order for people to truly hear what you're saying, which is so important for Harriet.
17:26So I think I think that was the most daunting thing, not not giving away any kind of a tell
17:33that that I'm really, you know, Asian 2020, you know, when we shot this, you know.
17:43I mean, I think also with the costumes for your character, too, it was really interesting
17:48to because you obviously had been like alone looking after your kid and you had a job,
17:53kids and you had a job. I know like Charlie came home and all that, but like kind of figuring out
18:00what you were at home, like you had this great like jeans and, you know, there's a great scene
18:08of you like taking Christmas. Yeah. Taking down Christmas lights and we still have your earrings
18:14in and like your little gingham shirt. Right. Yeah. Like something. I mean, yeah.
18:24You were doing it all. So. Yeah. And it all fits so it all fits so well in her in her world that
18:34it all felt so very specific to like even when she's doing labor, how to like working outside
18:41the house, how does she need to appear to the rest of the neighborhood? Exactly. Exactly. God
18:46forbid someone sees you like, you know, not dressed, you know, to perfection or whatever it
18:52is. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's actually something that I've thought about a lot, how
18:59your appearance becomes safety in a way, you know, like and I in terms of like being taken seriously
19:08or being thought of or perceived in a certain way. It's like your clothing then becomes like your
19:13armor. If I look this way, then this will keep me safe. Yeah. Which I yeah, I really like that
19:21the specificity around that is something that popped into my head because of how you created.
19:27Yeah. And also. Yeah. Also, you like in the courtroom scenes, were they considered courtroom?
19:34I guess. Right. I mean, I was referring to them as courtroom. Good.
19:41I remember like using we had like a really beautiful blue
19:45suit. Oh, that color is peacock blue. And it looks so good on you. And and we use that for
19:51like a very specific scene. You know, I think it was like your closing statement or one of those
19:56things, too. And we chose to work to wear like a bolder, slightly brighter color in that in that,
20:04you know, situation. Yeah. Because that that was the one that had like was it like a white and blue
20:10and had kind of like a little like almost like a little tie. Yes. Tie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
20:20You know? Yeah. And yeah, it's a very optimistic looking. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. She really,
20:29truly believes that she's going to win in this moment, which adds so much to the scene in terms
20:35of it actually being a really devastating moment. So like the contrast of the expectation.
20:43Right. Yeah. So, so beautifully, so beautifully done. I mean, to be able to tell like, you know,
20:52to take eight episodes and tell such a thorough story, like going into like the 40s and even
20:59before maybe in that the flashback of like Sots family and stuff into like, you know,
21:07where we end in the 50s or late 50s. Like, how did you how did you begin? I mean, like, it's
21:15such a such a thorough arc that you got to be a part of fashion wise and telling that story.
21:21But how did you begin to pick what episode you would submit for the Emmys? Oh, yeah.
21:30That's a great question. I mean, I have the same for you, too. Same question for you, too. But
21:35I think because of the introduction to Separate Six, and the introduction to Hastings and all
21:43that stuff, I chose the first episode because it was sort of a good combination of the two
21:51and seeing a little bit of Zod in the future and Zod in the present. And
21:55and obviously we have like the Hastings Ball pageant, horrible thing.
22:05So for that episode, I chose a lot of I mean, it was sort of I did an autumnal theme with all the
22:12women and so really getting into, you know, how I thought they would be dressing for that and
22:21trying to impress sort of the all the other men, the male co workers and vice versa and
22:28husband fishing and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, the heat that what was it called again?
22:35Little Miss Hastings. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So good. That's a really good point.
22:41You get to say, yeah, I yeah, I had a I submitted the Perot episode, episode six,
22:50where we see the freeway. You know, where we yes, where we we move on the freeway
22:58and and stand our protests there. And I mean, which that was a great day. That was a I was
23:05really proud of that. That day of filming and that entire episode came out so beautifully.
23:10I mean, all the episodes I know. Yeah. Yeah. And it's I mean, it was for me.
23:19Like I couldn't I couldn't quite understand how they were going to do it.
23:23Right. And then you see it and you felt the scope of it. Right. I think that's why I wanted to
23:30submit that episode, because even though it's not a dialogue, there's just so there's so much
23:36internal life in in all the characters. And you you build up to this moment with Harriet and you
23:42just understand what she's going through so deeply without her having to say a word about it. And the
23:49scope of the way they shot it is so magnificent. It captures so. Yeah, that was incredible, really.
23:59Yeah, I know. Like, yes, I have collaborators. So another thing that I would love to know,
24:07because the show was so epic and covering so much, like what were some of the biggest overall
24:12challenges that that you had to really kind of engage in and that you got to learn from and
24:20work with on this project? I think the overall challenges, I guess, is obviously making it all
24:28make sense costume wise for Zot, mainly because we do see her go through like a decade of life.
24:38And also then we go back to her childhood and just making sure she has a consistency, but also like
24:46an evolution and really like taking that like to heart and seriously. And for me, that was the
24:55biggest challenge. I'm like, obviously, you know, we had a big cast and, you know, background and
25:01sort of making sure obviously everything was period appropriate and in the right color palette
25:08that we liked. And, you know, I think it's always a challenge, but such a fun challenge.
25:18How would you describe her? I'm just curious. How would you describe her character evolution
25:23within her wardrobe? I would say she starts off when she's, you know, at Hastings as very
25:31utilitarian and like doesn't want to, you know, be noticed by any means. And so she kind of
25:41into, you know, slightly dresses in the same color palette as the men.
25:45And I have her in like sweater vests like the men do. She had to wear a skirt because you have to
25:51like women had to wear skirts at work. But, you know, apart from that, I think she,
25:57yeah, she sort of wore muted tones, didn't really stand out. And I think as she like
26:01gone to lessons in chemistry, I mean, sorry, separate sex, she started, you know, having
26:11like fun and being playful. And like, you can kind of see like this weight is lifted
26:15off her shoulder a little bit, especially she loves her daughter so much. And,
26:18you know, and this cooking show she's having fun with, even though it might not be like her end
26:23goal in life. And like my main thing was like, you know, for her was green. And I picked green
26:31as a through color, which I put her in mostly every, you know, beginning of every episode,
26:38sort of, or every stage in her life. So like in the in the 20s or 30s, when she was younger,
26:46forgetting which decade it is now, I think it was 30s. I had her in the same sort of shade of green
26:53as she wears in the beginning too. So that being like sort of her color that you recognize her for,
27:00and there's so many beautiful shades of green too, and obviously represents lots of
27:05interesting things. So yeah,
27:07You literally get to watch her blossom.
27:10Get to watch her blossom. If you were gonna, if you were gonna delve into another character,
27:14another period, what character, or what you sort of,
27:20Yeah, actually,
27:21Because for me, I'm obviously very interested in different periods as far as,
27:25No, no.
27:26But is there, is that, does that, does that relate as like,
27:29I'm actually very much with you. I think about like the Harlem Renaissance,
27:35like that kind of story is like, wouldn't that be fun?
27:41Were created in the, like in the Harlem Renaissance, right?
27:44I think so, right? Like, I mean,
27:46You would know better than I would.
27:49I'm just, I'm just imagining like a slapper-esque, you know, and then the really short
27:56hair thing.
27:56You kind of have that hair going on now. You can,
27:59I know.
28:02Is there any other period of time that you've been kind of like
28:05burning to be able to dive into costume wise?
28:09Um, I really would like to do anything 19th century, I guess, 1800s, 1700s,
28:21Like sort of niche group of people that I could really get into the research and
28:27delve into some sort of subculture of sorts. I don't know. This is just sort of
28:33I mean, that sounds interesting. Like, like, like, kind of like region.
28:43Like, I love like a gang, like a gang from New York, like getting like,
28:47or like specific group of people that were sort of.
28:51Yes.
28:52Yeah. Underground something, but in a decade, I don't know.
28:56Someone write the movie, write the script.
28:59Right. Make it happen.
29:01Obviously, it would be amazing to floppers.
29:05Like, that would be so much fun. And I haven't seen anything like that.
29:10And I know.
29:13Don't know what ever.
29:15I think there's something also, I mean, I don't know if this is for you too, but like,
29:19now I feel like I've done like 1950s. I feel very like,
29:23like, I feel comfortable with it. And it'd be interesting to do like a different
29:28subject in this area to really have like a full scope. For me, it's just like learning history.
29:34I wasn't like the best at school. And I'm not, you know,
29:38I know you're you went to like Harvard or something, right?
29:40So I'm like, okay, I'm it was acting school.
29:49I'm the opposite of you where I need to be like shown and forced into learning about
29:56hysterical events is not good.
30:00So true, like when you work on projects like these,
30:02You really like really
30:05Right, like how much you learn about this period of time, because the whole the whole
30:12not story because it happened in reality,
30:15but the entire history around the Sugar Hill neighborhood.
30:17I didn't know anything.
30:20Yeah, did not know that that happened in LA.
30:25In a city where I live, where I grew up, was not taught.
30:34Truly.
30:38Yeah.
30:43A lot of hidden facts.
30:46Yes.
30:48But look what we got to do with it.
30:50Exactly. And how many people watch that and learned about it and
30:54Right.
30:55And that's like the beauty of filmmaking is
30:57that it's, it's, it's so great to be that impactful and empowering to remind people,
31:04like, three that we've come from and what we fight against,
31:08and just how powerful we are when we fight against these things together.
31:12Yeah, yeah. And that was that was a really beautiful takeaway for me
31:17from from being a part of telling the story.
31:20I know, I know that I did such an amazing job.
31:24Well, it was so great chatting with you, Emmy nominated Mirren Gordon-Crosier.
31:32And just such a pleasure to see you again. Congratulations.
31:37And yeah, thanks for watching the process.