Anand Teltumbde’s room has a single bed, a large window and a bookshelf. This is where he lives and writes. The old building is inside the premises of the famous Rajgruha, a memorial and a museum dedicated to B. R. Ambedkar at Hindu colony of Dadar in Mumbai.
Teltumbde, who was arrested in the Bhima-Koregaon violence that happened on January 1, 2018, was released jn November 2022.
In an interview with Outlook, he talks about freedom of fantasy and class and caste in India.
Casteism is more pronounced than ever, he says.
For the scholar who was once a CEO, caste is like amoeba.
“It splits,” he says.
In his article on freedom for Outlook’s special issue on Independence Day, he writes, “The very basic freedoms that enable people to live as humans, such as freedom from hunger, freedom from disease, freedom from livelihood uncertainties (lack of means of production and employment) and freedom from injustice appear to be meaningless rhetoric for a vast majority of our people.”
In Video: Chinki Sinha, Editor, Outlook and Anand Teltumbde, Scholar, Author and Activist
Camera: Dinesh Parab
Teltumbde, who was arrested in the Bhima-Koregaon violence that happened on January 1, 2018, was released jn November 2022.
In an interview with Outlook, he talks about freedom of fantasy and class and caste in India.
Casteism is more pronounced than ever, he says.
For the scholar who was once a CEO, caste is like amoeba.
“It splits,” he says.
In his article on freedom for Outlook’s special issue on Independence Day, he writes, “The very basic freedoms that enable people to live as humans, such as freedom from hunger, freedom from disease, freedom from livelihood uncertainties (lack of means of production and employment) and freedom from injustice appear to be meaningless rhetoric for a vast majority of our people.”
In Video: Chinki Sinha, Editor, Outlook and Anand Teltumbde, Scholar, Author and Activist
Camera: Dinesh Parab
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00In India, there has not been a kind of politics of the lowest strata, whether it is caste or class, okay?
00:00:11People will have to create something like what we call a socialist system,
00:00:17so that's the only way that the human race will survive, this planet will survive.
00:00:22Caste knows only splitting, like amoeba, amoeba splits like thing, no?
00:00:28So there is no end to it, so that way caste, the feature of caste is that.
00:00:33And class tends to unite on your parameters of life, actual life, class tends to unite.
00:00:45Hi, welcome to Outlook Talks, we are with Anantil Tumde and he needs no introduction,
00:01:00he is an author, activist, columnist, you know, a lot many other things.
00:01:05And we are at his house, which is Rajgriha in Dadar Hindu Colony
00:01:11and he has written a fantastic piece for our Freedom special edition,
00:01:16which talks about Isaiah Berlin's negative and positive concepts of liberty
00:01:20and in that the piece is called Freedom of Fantasy.
00:01:23And he starts with the time when we gained independence
00:01:27and we thought we would talk to him about his work, his time.
00:01:31He was also arrested in Bhima Koregaon case, spent time in jail and then got bail in 2022 later.
00:01:40And then he has been here since then, we met him in, I think last year we met him
00:01:45and he wrote a column for that Independence Day issue and this is the new one now.
00:01:51So Anantil Tumde ji, so I just wanted to ask you about,
00:01:56this is very intriguing when you talk about the persistence of caste,
00:02:00that you say that it has basically feudalism, it has basically outrun everything.
00:02:04Matlab woh reh gaya hai, so why you think so and what can be done?
00:02:10And why we don't understand caste?
00:02:13Even why caste survived?
00:02:15Yeah.
00:02:16Okay.
00:02:17Shouldn't, no?
00:02:21Yeah, there is so much of confusion you know,
00:02:23but people do not see when the transition happened
00:02:27because the caste has been fossilized thing and characterized India for almost more,
00:02:39about thousand years, not that rhetorically thousands of years,
00:02:43it's almost thousand years, but in medieval time the changes started happening.
00:02:48Okay.
00:02:49In micro time the changes were happening always,
00:02:52but as compared to the rest of the world the changes were very minimal
00:02:57and from medieval times when the alternate civilization actually entered India,
00:03:03Islamic civilization, so lot of lower caste people had an opportunity to escape the caste bond.
00:03:11They were otherwise confined to villages and they started getting migrated
00:03:17and the advanced feudalism that actually came in the wake of Islamic civilization,
00:03:23the Islamic rulers brought.
00:03:26So, they started building cities, markets, new revenue systems, transportation, etc.
00:03:36So, these projects required artisans, lot of artisans and labouring classes.
00:03:42Yeah, and workers.
00:03:44So, the lower kind of OBCs that we call them today were the artisan classes.
00:03:50So, they migrated alongside the labouring classes which actually constituted the most populous caste.
00:03:56Of SCs, schedule caste also migrated, Dalits.
00:04:01So, in course of time, not that they were Islamized immediately, etc.
00:04:08and in course of time they found that Islam being very egalitarian and all that.
00:04:13They accepted, they embraced Islam and the same kind of influence probably is seen among rest of them
00:04:22when Sufis came here.
00:04:25So, lot of lower caste people, Sufism rather propagated Islam among the lower caste in a very big way.
00:04:33Much more than direct Islamicization.
00:04:36So, this process was the first dent. It was a sort of democratic change that befell the caste India.
00:04:46So, lot of people, somebody like Vivekananda says that it was not by force but by volition that people became Muslims.
00:04:56Exactly.
00:04:57And something like 20% Hindus were lost to Hinduism with this process.
00:05:04So, this way. Then came, thereafter came the British colonialism, European colonialism.
00:05:10Many French, Dutch, etc. had small pockets. Ultimately British prevailed and British colonialism stabilized.
00:05:18So, again the similar kind of process but in much more pronounced form started happening.
00:05:28Because British were, did not contemplate to settle here and they were the non-resident kind of Indians
00:05:37and they did not have initially much to do with all these kinds of nonsense. They just dismissed it.
00:05:44So, Dalit for instance got huge opportunity. You would find that initially East India Company,
00:05:53much of the recruits, there were lot of Rajas and Maharajas and all over and they had the so called warrior caste in their armies.
00:06:06Now who were left out and who would go to British army. So, British opened their army to the untouchables.
00:06:16And lot of Namashudras in Bengal and thereafter you find that Maharajas from Maharas, Palayas in Madras.
00:06:27All these kinds of people had huge opportunity in army. It is not incidental that many of the leaders of the Dalit movement,
00:06:38they come from this populous caste of the schedule caste and their background if you probe, their background actually happens to be military, army.
00:06:48Ambedkar is the best example but M.C.Raja, then even Achuthanan and many others actually had this lineage of British military service.
00:07:01So, this and even more people were recruited in British households as servants in their clubs etc.
00:07:11So, they had got an interface with something like not only ordinary civilization but the liberal kind of European outlook
00:07:22and they got in process, the best example probably I can cite to make it short, Shivram Janba Kamble from Pune.
00:07:32He was a butler, his father was a butler, he was also a butler in British club and he is the person who,
00:07:42Bhima Koregaon, Ambedkar gets associated but he is the person who brought Ambedkar there.
00:07:48Because Ambedkar, this is the fun, people don't understand anything.
00:07:53So, it is his movement, basically the movement was when British stopped recruitment of Mahars in military,
00:08:03so there was a lot of turmoil and some people, most of the people in Maharashtra at least,
00:08:09the movement started with that kind of demand that the recruitment should be restored.
00:08:16Shivram Janba Kamble was the most prominent one rather in that and then he created that kind of myth that Mahars were very brave soldiers
00:08:28and they defeated, they defeated Peshawami and Ramanesan, that kind of thing that rather he initiated
00:08:40and in 1927, they used to congregate there in a small way and he, Ambedkar when he returned from Europe,
00:08:53you know, with a lot of scholarly accomplishments, etc., so he became quite a name.
00:08:59So, he invited him to preside over one of the meeting. So, that is what, it is not Ambedkar who initiated
00:09:07and Ambedkar probably had never gone there thereafter on his own.
00:09:12So, this is the kind of ignorance that prevails around.
00:09:19So, what we are talking about is this kind of changes happened, then the biggest change that came in with education.
00:09:27Education started by missionaries, not the British people because they were not, as they started stabilizing their rule here,
00:09:35they started jittery about tinkering with the social fabric of India.
00:09:40So, they went with caution and, but missionaries who started coming from Europe and America here,
00:09:50they began a lot of work in education field and they opened doors of education for Dalit.
00:10:00Let me add that even the East India military service also had the tradition of educating their people in their families.
00:10:12So, that also influenced. Ambedkar's making actually could be traced to that.
00:10:17Because Ambedkar's father, you know, those days, something like our grandfather or great-grandfather,
00:10:28he spoke very fluent English and he had such a mastery on English, etc. and reached something like the topmost post that India could hold in a military establishment.
00:10:41So, these are phenomenal kinds of things that happened. So, education brought in big change.
00:10:51Later on, of course, British also adopted reluctantly and let Dalits into the school and thereafter they just flew off.
00:11:06See, something like Ambedkar, etc., comes out as a product of this process.
00:11:14So, and another development that happens is the Dalit movement, you know, in the twilight of 20th century.
00:11:24This also gave many, all lower castes, because of this only, basically education and all.
00:11:31See, Mahatma Phule, for instance, is identified the pioneer of non-Dalit movement.
00:11:38It's because of education and missionary school education that his doors were, meaning his horizons were opened up.
00:11:45Exactly.
00:11:46And he kind of rebelled against the setjis and bhajjis, which are typically capitalist and feudal landlords.
00:11:59So, it's a remarkable person to speak this in those times.
00:12:08Exactly, to oversee it also.
00:12:10Very, very radical.
00:12:11Yeah, no, it's interesting.
00:12:12And we probably strategically cannot be faulted even today.
00:12:16Yeah.
00:12:18So, all these kinds of things, they take caste, but how caste were accommodated when the entire freedom movement,
00:12:28that means the parlays from early 19th, 20th century.
00:12:32Yeah.
00:12:33Moral and mental reforms, monarchy and social reforms, all these kinds of reforms.
00:12:37And you talk about that fact that it got transferred from British capitalist to basically Indian capitalist.
00:12:42Yeah.
00:12:43And what did that do?
00:12:44Because a lot of people make this argument consistently and I've spoken to some people over this informal chats saying
00:12:51and they believe in capitalism and I was intrigued also because I didn't understand much of it.
00:12:56Because I was coming to Bombay and every neighborhood outside there's an Ambedkar Nagar.
00:13:01And, you know, so there is a caste situation.
00:13:04So, my question is that why people fail to see that?
00:13:07Like as an outsider I was able to see it.
00:13:09And people in Bombay were like, no, there's a lot of development and people have better chances
00:13:15and kind of like all of this free, you know, the untouchability thing is not practiced as in cities.
00:13:21But to me, Bombay remains very casteist in a way because I see it like, you know, coming from Bihar or whatever.
00:13:28I don't know.
00:13:29I mean, I don't know the answers, but maybe you would be able to…
00:13:32More casteist than Bihar?
00:13:33I feel so sometimes.
00:13:34I mean, I don't know.
00:13:36Because this argument that all kinds of people are living in slums, it's not like that.
00:13:39I also lived in Bihar.
00:13:41I mean, I had an advantage.
00:13:43I don't claim always, but I lived almost everywhere.
00:13:48Yeah, I mean, Bihar is casteist.
00:13:50That's rhetoric.
00:13:52Okay.
00:13:53But that does not mean that other people are not casteist.
00:13:56I'm not casteist.
00:13:57People look at us and say, you are like this.
00:13:59But sure, but Maharashtra, I mean, I'm sorry, but even not Maharashtra, Bombay itself.
00:14:04There are so many things, like Muslims will not get this apartment.
00:14:08You can't make garlic and onions.
00:14:10You will find easy ghettoization in Bombay.
00:14:13Completely.
00:14:14That Dalits are, there are Dalit bastis intact.
00:14:20No, but that even people say that, no, that's poor people.
00:14:24So poor people can't be classified into caste because Brahmins live in slums.
00:14:27But that's not true either.
00:14:28Actually, caste and class is so much matched reality that it cannot be separated.
00:14:35And you have talked about it a lot.
00:14:37That is true.
00:14:38And that's what I've been talking about.
00:14:40People take, again, that's a stereotype that I talk caste or Ambedkar or anything.
00:14:45I don't have anything to do with that.
00:14:47Yeah.
00:14:48Okay.
00:14:49I actually, my commitment is to the people and this landmass.
00:14:53Okay.
00:14:55What can an individual contribute?
00:14:57You know, if I can contribute a betterment of this kind of thing, it's enough for me.
00:15:03That's all.
00:15:04So you can explain a bit about that.
00:15:06People would actually label me something, like some people label me Ambedkarite.
00:15:12Yeah.
00:15:13Because of my…
00:15:14You were labeled as Maoist for…
00:15:16No, because of the caste or something.
00:15:19Some people in the very extreme, then they will label me Maoist, Marxist, all kinds of labels.
00:15:24All kinds of nomenclatures.
00:15:25I have never spoken like that, you know.
00:15:27I myself have never identified with any ism.
00:15:29In fact, you have also challenged Ambedkar in a couple of your pieces, at least what you have written for us.
00:15:35Yeah, actually, before my marriage, I was not known because my name is not typical, Mahar or anything.
00:15:41So it's only people started identifying my company also.
00:15:45Yeah.
00:15:46We never used caste certificate, for instance.
00:15:48Okay.
00:15:49So there was no occasion for something like this thing.
00:15:54Even in my closest friend circle in colleges, etc., they did not identify me with Dalits.
00:16:00Genuinely did not know that I was Dalit.
00:16:02Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:16:03So that ran.
00:16:04But then, anyway, I don't feel ashamed or bad about it.
00:16:08And I rather found…
00:16:10Yeah, but why do people feel ashamed about it even now?
00:16:13Like, why?
00:16:14Because we have interacted with several of these artists.
00:16:17And one of them said that, look, I don't want to say.
00:16:20So I said, but your work is on that.
00:16:21What?
00:16:22Caste.
00:16:23She is an artist from Bihar.
00:16:24And she is from the, if I am not wrong, the Chamar Jata, which is called Jata.
00:16:32But in Bihar, they still call it that.
00:16:34And her father was actually one of the activists.
00:16:38But she became bigger and bigger with her work.
00:16:42And then we wrote a piece about her.
00:16:44And she said, please take down that thing.
00:16:46And I am like, but your work is coming from there.
00:16:49You are addressing caste in your work.
00:16:51So how do we…
00:16:52Anyways, we pulled it down.
00:16:53But that is one thing I never understood.
00:16:55Why is it like still…
00:16:57And I am sure…
00:16:58Why he was shying of using caste or identity.
00:17:03Yeah, people advance in that.
00:17:05So that brings in…
00:17:06It's a psychology.
00:17:08Brings in lots of handicap.
00:17:10You know, the people's outlook changes once this thing…
00:17:14I didn't care because I had so much mosque around me.
00:17:18Yeah.
00:17:19That really did not affect me anyway.
00:17:21Yeah.
00:17:22So you call me Bhangi, you call me anything.
00:17:25It doesn't really matter.
00:17:26Yeah.
00:17:27Because people did know.
00:17:29I had…
00:17:32What to call?
00:17:33Something like scholastic.
00:17:35In my background.
00:17:37That could never be dented.
00:17:39So it's a confidence, self-confidence.
00:17:42Yeah.
00:17:43But the confidence has to also come from somewhere.
00:17:45So many people change their names.
00:17:48Mine is probably the dirtiest name possible.
00:17:50But I did not change because of that.
00:17:52Yeah.
00:17:53Okay, I will carry this name and still show that I am somebody.
00:17:56Yeah.
00:17:57Because if the upper caste use their surname…
00:17:59It doesn't really matter.
00:18:00It doesn't.
00:18:01And also for class and…
00:18:03But in normal…
00:18:04See, this is…
00:18:05In normal case, it becomes very difficult to carry on with a tag of something like an untouchable.
00:18:12Yeah.
00:18:13Or this thing.
00:18:14So that…
00:18:15You should make concession to people who actually are shy of using it.
00:18:21Yeah.
00:18:22No, no, I understood in a way but I didn't understand in many ways.
00:18:24That's not a big deal.
00:18:26It's in process.
00:18:27So I am not making any capital out of it.
00:18:29No, that's true.
00:18:30And also about class and caste that you were talking about.
00:18:32Because it seems like not many people are understanding that it's interrelated.
00:18:37And even though we understand…
00:18:39Like why are mostly most poor people coming from the lower caste?
00:18:44So if you can talk a little bit about that because you have been talking about that.
00:18:48Look, from earlier time, caste was a reality.
00:18:53But even reality in what sense?
00:18:56So people did not know about the caste.
00:18:59It was a birth mark with which actually you lived in the world.
00:19:07And you are born and died in the same kind of caste.
00:19:13So caste was a reality, a dominant reality.
00:19:16That did not mean that class was not there.
00:19:19Because associated class features also were there.
00:19:22Completely.
00:19:23So when Ambedkar speaks of caste being enclosed class, it's true.
00:19:27Ambedkar does not use Marxian class sense.
00:19:30No, not at all.
00:19:31It's a Weberian, very vague kind of thing.
00:19:34That apart.
00:19:35But class, you cannot dismiss class.
00:19:39Now for instance there was one scholar.
00:19:42He was a very scholarly person.
00:19:44And he was an activist also.
00:19:46Sharath Patil.
00:19:47You might have known him.
00:19:48So he theorized that India had only caste up to British times.
00:19:57And thereafter it started changing.
00:20:01So he theorized etc. but that would be lengthy affair.
00:20:07So let's not enter that field.
00:20:09Now distinctly from colonial times, you know, this classization of caste started happening.
00:20:17What is the implication of that?
00:20:19So the caste do not remain pure.
00:20:21Now take anything, like at the lowest of the lowest caste.
00:20:26Also you will find somebody doing business and has far more money than an average Indian.
00:20:36So these are the kinds of classes.
00:20:38And these people do not sort of relate with the rest of the masses.
00:20:43So this has happened.
00:20:44This is natural process actually from the advent of capitalism in India.
00:20:51So this is bound to happen everywhere.
00:20:53So it's not a caste.
00:20:55You can't go back to that dictum that was thousand years ago.
00:21:03The problem that I face is that people normally use the same kind of thing.
00:21:10They started off from stereotype like thousands of years we were exploited and that Manu and that all.
00:21:21It starts from there only.
00:21:23They do not contend the contemporary reality.
00:21:26Contemporary reality is hopelessly mixed with caste and class.
00:21:30So that they do not identify and rather try to understand that.
00:21:37And what is happening now in India because you say that caste is becoming even more of a force.
00:21:43Which we also see because there are so many conversations about it.
00:21:47And even though people say development and this and that and then you talked about that as well.
00:21:52Like how development happens and some of it percolates to some of them.
00:21:56But it's not really the solution.
00:21:58So how do you firstly understand caste and then class and why is it persisting so much?
00:22:04In the reign of this Hindutva situation happening there is so much of other stuff.
00:22:08See the advantage of talking class is one that it unifies.
00:22:17And in contrast caste actually fragments.
00:22:22The caste in simple terms you can say that it does not know unification.
00:22:28It splits like amoeba.
00:22:30So there is no end.
00:22:32But why so? Why wouldn't caste?
00:22:34Caste splits like amoeba.
00:22:36Why? You don't understand?
00:22:38No, that's why I came to you to understand.
00:22:41Because I would think that lower caste would unite and address.
00:22:44See caste is the continuum of hierarchy.
00:22:48Now where do you draw line in a continuum?
00:22:51So that is why it splits.
00:22:54Like take for instance Mahariyar.
00:22:59So Mahariyar is something like some people say there are twelve and a half sub-castes.
00:23:05It is there in us also.
00:23:07Yes, it is there in everyone.
00:23:08I am giving an example.
00:23:10Even I didn't know to a great extent.
00:23:12But actually when I started writing and all these things.
00:23:17This is not my subject.
00:23:19But from activism I graduated to writing also simultaneously.
00:23:24Activism I was writing but not in my name.
00:23:30So continuously.
00:23:32But you think and then I started.
00:23:35But lot of such ignorance came out.
00:23:37Because somehow I did not know that there were sub-castes of Maharshi etc.
00:23:42Because somewhere it is an accident that right from the childhood
00:23:47I did not so much relate with caste.
00:23:58So my outlook has been elsewhere I had written also that my influences were
00:24:06in the Sikh meaning when I was just eight years old I think
00:24:12I got Stalin's book.
00:24:16So Stalin's book or later on something like Bhagat Singh's book.
00:24:20These were my influences.
00:24:22Ambedkar came in Dahej.
00:24:24Okay, Ambedkar was there but there was nothing to be read about Ambedkar.
00:24:29It was only songs on loudspeaker.
00:24:31Exactly, and some posters you would see sometimes.
00:24:34So it was so hazy affair you know.
00:24:37Ambedkar we got to read something
00:24:41when I entered university in 11th standard.
00:24:46So that is up till then the thinking is quite concretized.
00:24:53So that apart.
00:24:55It is very easy to see as I said that caste could be defined as a continuum of hierarchy.
00:25:02It is not Varna kind of, Varna is a notional kind.
00:25:07There are something like four definitive Varna.
00:25:11Definitive four and within that there are thousand more.
00:25:14There are four Varna.
00:25:16So they are definitive kind of hierarchies, compartments.
00:25:20But caste nobody knows how many castes exist.
00:25:23There are caste and then sub-caste and who knows there are sub-sub-caste.
00:25:28It has been evolving also alongside.
00:25:31So you couldn't be sure.
00:25:33No, not at all.
00:25:34So that is why caste knows only splitting like amoeba.
00:25:38Amoeba splits like thing.
00:25:40So there is no end to it.
00:25:42So that way caste, feature of caste is that.
00:25:45And class tends to unite on your parameters of life, actual life.
00:25:56Class tends to unite.
00:25:58So that's the advantage.
00:25:59So why is nobody addressing class here?
00:26:02Like let's say politics for instance.
00:26:04You know you would have caste and normally you would think because of like whatever has happened in the past,
00:26:09most of the lower caste or like Dalit people might end up poor which is also true by the way.
00:26:15So it's intricately intrinsically related as well caste and class here in that sense.
00:26:20But politics why nobody is addressing in like class rather than just caste.
00:26:26I don't know I mean I want to see.
00:26:29Politics is not.
00:26:31But what would be how would you solve this because it seems like it's unsolvable or whatever.
00:26:36I don't know.
00:26:37See there is in India there has not been a kind of politics of the lowest strata.
00:26:45Yeah.
00:26:46Whether it is caste or class.
00:26:48Okay.
00:26:49During making of the Dalit movement that politics was something like talking about anti-caste tone etc.
00:26:58But unfortunately that also did not take comprehensive account of that their reality and looked at the class issues.
00:27:11Because it germinated very much in during colonial time and these things were to be seen there.
00:27:18But it went along, drifted away along the mainstream politics.
00:27:24Only thing it kept a parallel stream.
00:27:27Yeah.
00:27:28Okay.
00:27:29So there are pluses and minuses in terms of strategies.
00:27:32So as a result I would and talking about the so called class movements like communist movement.
00:27:39Yeah.
00:27:40So initially they were taking things from outside you know that again was a romanticism.
00:27:48Completely.
00:27:49But there were few spots which actually kind of indigenously created.
00:27:56Like Telangana movement, Tebaga movement, movements in…
00:28:02Even Jharkhand.
00:28:04Jharkhand, Tamil Nadu.
00:28:06Yeah.
00:28:07So everywhere some pockets of communists and local communists without any truck with the central leadership.
00:28:12Completely.
00:28:13Actually articulated the struggles and they actually flowered also into quite a promising ones.
00:28:20Yeah.
00:28:21Like Telangana for instance had a big promise.
00:28:23But thereafter again after demise of Telangana then the communist movement also took a parliamentary path.
00:28:32Earlier times also during movement they were dilly-dallying about taking stand you know taking instructions from Moscow.
00:28:42So those kinds of things went on happening and thereafter of course after independence
00:28:49then almost all politics of the lowest strata almost started disappearing.
00:28:57Completely.
00:28:58But why did that, why did the left kind of become so weak in that sense and what are the reasons for it?
00:29:05Again in my analysis it's very complex.
00:29:11It becomes simplistic to speak in few words or sentences but I have written my kind of thinking about why
00:29:20because I feel most sad speaking about the left.
00:29:28Something like I would rhetorically speak that today's situation is because of the failure of left.
00:29:35Talking in the context of India the failure of left can be pinpointed that related to caste, understanding caste.
00:29:47They could not understand properly what this animal is.
00:29:51For quite some time they started sort of using their model you know structure and superstructure.
00:30:00So caste relegated to superstructure.
00:30:03When the revolution happened all these nonsense would disappear.
00:30:07That kind of thing and in implication they went on undermining the Ambedkar struggle.
00:30:14Bombay communists for instance where Ambedkar was working.
00:30:20So they dismissed it as a superstructural struggle.
00:30:23It's meaningless.
00:30:24So that kind of attitude they initially had.
00:30:28They should not deny now.
00:30:29And even today now when they actually recoil back you know the other end like pendulum.
00:30:37Now they start actually floating caste based anti-caste organised fronts.
00:30:43Everywhere they exist.
00:30:44Many of them incidentally were inaugurated by me personally.
00:30:50So that again is a bad thing.
00:30:53Although whatever little positive happens you do not dismiss that.
00:30:59So I took it in positive tone and associated with.
00:31:04I have intimate contact with such kind of comrades.
00:31:08But some way I get a reflection that they still do not have clear moorings as to how to handle this.
00:31:21Either you take an extremist casteist view or take a class view.
00:31:26Class view is totally out of fashion you know.
00:31:29Up to 70s, 80s etc the Marxism was intellectually valorised.
00:31:38So now it is no more out of fashion.
00:31:41So the class term is out of question.
00:31:43What is in fashion now in terms of this?
00:31:45Now you are getting dragged by the ruling class politics.
00:31:50Completely.
00:31:52There is nothing in fashion.
00:31:53Whatever they said to be a fashion.
00:31:56Now it has become very fashionable to say that I am in favour of these things.
00:32:02This is a nice period to understand what is fashion.
00:32:07Exactly.
00:32:08Like Modi brings out some issue and everything gets drifted towards that.
00:32:12Then he brings out different one and everything that gets eclipsed.
00:32:17And something new comes.
00:32:19So that is the fashion.
00:32:21So you can generate new fashion trends.
00:32:27We are still stuck in the old model.
00:32:29So you do not have your own things to do.
00:32:33You get drifted and sort of follow Modi.
00:32:39And if you don't follow then you have to carve out your own kind of legacy.
00:32:44It is damn complex.
00:32:46The other thing I wanted to ask was I read this book.
00:32:49Obviously I knew about Bhima Koregaon.
00:32:52But this is another reflection on education and information that we really don't know about many things.
00:32:57When the thing happened in 2018 we got to know a little bit.
00:33:02But we had no idea about the history and the Maratha and all of these kinds of things.
00:33:05Which I read and I was actually really scared when I was reading the bit about the surveillance.
00:33:11Like how they are putting the malware and whatever.
00:33:15All kinds of things.
00:33:16It makes you almost like very scared of being whoever you are.
00:33:22If not in a corporate job or something where you probably are not speaking anything.
00:33:27But even one line that you speak could have consequences.
00:33:31Or I don't even know even if you don't speak could have consequences.
00:33:35But I just wanted to ask you about your time.
00:33:39Because last time when we met you did talk about your prison time.
00:33:42How is a prison?
00:33:43Like you know prison you were there in Taluja.
00:33:47Is there class and caste in prison as well?
00:33:49And how does it work?
00:33:50And what did you do there?
00:33:52You know you did say that it was a fabricated case.
00:33:57But you did spend considerable amount of time in jail.
00:34:00Ya it's fabricated that now people are writing upon.
00:34:05Everything is open and shut now.
00:34:08Before public.
00:34:09But how much it is consequential one has to.
00:34:12We are not supposed to be speaking on that case per se.
00:34:17So I avoid that.
00:34:19Because I have a lot of data and probably the truth will come when I write it down.
00:34:24When the case ends that time.
00:34:27And one does not know.
00:34:29Maybe posthumous.
00:34:31So that apart.
00:34:35But the essence of it is not confined to Bhima Kurega even.
00:34:42Leave apart our case.
00:34:44The essence is that they are creating an infrastructure wherein something like they can pick you up just like that.
00:34:53And put in jail.
00:34:54And incarcerate you for years.
00:34:58Now there are people.
00:34:59Now recently in Manish Sisodia's case you know.
00:35:03The Supreme Court fortunately reiterated the old rule.
00:35:07Krishna IAS time and much before.
00:35:10That bail is the rule and jail is an exception.
00:35:15Exactly.
00:35:16Nothing very radical.
00:35:18It is just a reiteration.
00:35:20Of what they wrote before.
00:35:24Ya they established jurisprudence.
00:35:27But no.
00:35:28Judges also started speaking.
00:35:30No bail is the rule.
00:35:33And jail is.
00:35:34No jail is the rule.
00:35:35Jail is the rule.
00:35:36And bail is an exception.
00:35:37So it is fortunate.
00:35:39Fortunately this very very recent judgment.
00:35:43Very very vocally said so.
00:35:47That if the trial is not going to end.
00:35:50Bail should be given.
00:35:52Ya.
00:35:53At least that much I sense.
00:35:55You see.
00:35:56With a not knowing anything law.
00:35:59That is none of your business.
00:36:01But law is just.
00:36:03I found with my interaction.
00:36:07Or confrontation with law.
00:36:09The way it happens.
00:36:10You know it is nothing beyond logic.
00:36:13Ok.
00:36:14Very funnily.
00:36:15This entire breed of lawyers and judges.
00:36:18Are not formally taught logic.
00:36:20I was surprised.
00:36:21Actually I learnt logic.
00:36:23Ya.
00:36:24And what is logic and how could you.
00:36:25Very formally.
00:36:26Very formally.
00:36:27There is a subject called logic.
00:36:28Ok.
00:36:29So you formally learn that.
00:36:30It is trained.
00:36:31Otherwise.
00:36:32So if there is no salience.
00:36:34They would not teach such kind of things in universities.
00:36:37Ya.
00:36:38I was surprised that they do not have.
00:36:40Logic in their curriculum.
00:36:42Hmm.
00:36:43Anyway.
00:36:44So that is not the subject.
00:36:52But it is interesting.
00:36:54That you say that.
00:36:55There is no logic.
00:36:56Because most of the time.
00:36:57You know I find.
00:36:58I was in jail.
00:36:59I was reading the judgments.
00:37:01Ya.
00:37:02You know.
00:37:03So many judgments.
00:37:04One of my neighbors.
00:37:06Was focusing on.
00:37:08And he used to.
00:37:09Because he started.
00:37:10He prodded me rather.
00:37:12To be co-author with him.
00:37:13To write a book on UAPA.
00:37:15Hmm.
00:37:16Ok.
00:37:17Gautam Dhanlakha.
00:37:18No.
00:37:19Not that.
00:37:20Ok.
00:37:21Great.
00:37:22He is a poisonous person.
00:37:23Ya.
00:37:24Ya.
00:37:25Jail you have lots of.
00:37:26All kinds of.
00:37:27All kinds of people.
00:37:28Ya.
00:37:29But many such kind of stalwarts.
00:37:30Became friendly with me.
00:37:31Ya.
00:37:32Ok.
00:37:33So.
00:37:34I know you talked about reading books.
00:37:35And there was this one.
00:37:36Guy who used to come.
00:37:37And he would listen to you.
00:37:38And all kinds of.
00:37:39Friendships were formed.
00:37:40So ya.
00:37:41So there were.
00:37:42Many such friends.
00:37:43The way.
00:37:44I was put in jail.
00:37:45The.
00:37:46In the hospital barrack.
00:37:47Ya.
00:37:49So such people were housed.
00:37:50So called elite kind of thing.
00:37:51Hmm.
00:37:52And they had.
00:37:53This kind of background.
00:37:54Somewhere serial killers.
00:37:55Somewhere.
00:37:56Oh.
00:37:57Haan.
00:37:58Somewhere gangsters.
00:37:59Ya.
00:38:00Somewhere.
00:38:01Arabid Hindutva fellow.
00:38:02Who had.
00:38:03Some.
00:38:04Murders of Muslim to his credit.
00:38:05Oh.
00:38:06And some policemen.
00:38:07You know.
00:38:08They.
00:38:09Ab tak chappan wala.
00:38:10Haan.
00:38:11Haan.
00:38:12Haan.
00:38:13Haan.
00:38:14Haan.
00:38:15Haan.
00:38:16Haan.
00:38:17Haan.
00:38:18Haan.
00:38:19Haan.
00:38:20Haan.
00:38:21Haan.
00:38:22Haan.
00:38:23Haan.
00:38:24Haan.
00:38:25Haan.
00:38:26Haan.
00:38:27All kinds of people.
00:38:28All kinds of people.
00:38:29And they were friendly.
00:38:30Ya.
00:38:31Within that jail setting.
00:38:32You have to forget those kind of.
00:38:33Ya.
00:38:34Thing.
00:38:35What they.
00:38:36They have done in their previous life.
00:38:37And wo khana, peena yeh wo sab chalta hai.
00:38:38Haan.
00:38:39So that kind.
00:38:40With that kind of thing.
00:38:41I got to read lot of judgement.
00:38:42Hmm.
00:38:43Before that it was something like Hebrew to me.
00:38:44Ya.
00:38:45I.
00:38:46read their language and all so but I started reading and upon in a single judgment what
00:38:54the judge says in the first part and several hundred pages he actually goes on contradicting
00:39:04and comes out the third conclusion as an order yeah most of the judgments are written like
00:39:10that and we take as a sacrosanct okay and this is within one single judgment there could
00:39:19be across the judgment if you find there will be so many contradictions yeah so it's a contradiction
00:39:24galore but people suffer they are not aware of that kind of thing that they're playing
00:39:29with the lives of people exactly so this happens you know so that is because you you also talked
00:39:37about the constitution and the limitations within the constitution the constitution and the
00:39:43limitation in terms of truncated freedoms and you know how we have these freedoms right but
00:39:47there is also that whole thing that your freedom ends where you know and we addressed it in this
00:39:52issue as well that about this limitation and some people have written about it but I just wanted to
00:39:59know that why because we have always taken the constitution as this you know this red book
00:40:04has been fronted everywhere now in this election and obviously you where do you go I mean you have
00:40:09the constitution and that's your thing but within that also because that's why all of these things
00:40:16are also happening in this I don't know I mean I wanted to ask you as to how do you look at it and
00:40:21what can be done or if anything can be done our constitution is respected and it is respectable
00:40:28no doubt because it's very big yeah and it has a lot of such masala like fundamental rights to
00:40:40all people and preamble and elaborate kind of social justice schema that the liberals
00:40:48see it in yeah so because of that constitution becomes a very good thing but in essence
00:40:55constitution there is another way of looking at the constitution yeah and that should not be
00:41:01forgotten constitution is a rehash in a way of 1935 India act yeah okay and Babasaheb Ambedkar who
00:41:11chaired the drafting committee admitted it so there is nothing like we cannot discover anything
00:41:18what is wrong in copying something which is which is what yeah what worked was the
00:41:23India act 1935 yeah so he adopted so essentially many things actually were taken from
00:41:32India act 1935 and anyway some earlier constitution like Motilal Nehru congress
00:41:38resolutions etc so that were picked up and then fundamental rights fundamental rights also
00:41:44as I probably wrote in that outlook thing yeah it could be said because UDHR universal declaration
00:41:53of human rights you knows 19 for it came in 1948 when a constituent assembly was in session yeah
00:42:01and even in that constitution many of these fundamental rights appeared which predates
00:42:071948 that's why I said that it is not as much 1948 UDHR but it actually was inspired by the
00:42:17our own ethos yeah that's true and they were elaborately drawn but let me ask another
00:42:24question to those constitutionalists that which new sort of post-colonial country
00:42:33that does not have this yeah essentially all countries are all countries constitution read
00:42:38similar so this is what it is so this had happened and the character of the ruling classes also was
00:42:48were similar in across the country completely everywhere yeah they were all you read any
00:42:53fiction from anywhere in the world they talk so much about people etc but actually the bottom
00:42:59line was anti-people so in our constitution also similar thing happened so all constitute
00:43:06our fundamental rights have a leak leaking point exception route yeah escape route
00:43:13and none other than Ambedkar proudly said declared that no we have checks and balances
00:43:22no no not checking balances so for instance liberty and this and that but we have given it
00:43:28in one hand and taken out in another there is a every exception for every fundamental and those
00:43:35are the exceptions and he was quite proud of used so and what he said is the he justified it
00:43:44somebody raised the question in constituent assembly that us us fundamental rights are
00:43:51absolute absolute yeah so Ambedkar said they were also not they're also not absolute because when
00:43:57it went to supreme court the supreme court evoked the state has a police power
00:44:03and that police power prevails so that police power so-called actually
00:44:12deletes that absolutism of fundamental rights in the US constitution
00:44:19according to me I played with those words itself and said that that's a lame excuse
00:44:25because okay at least US constitution questions had to be challenged in supreme court let supreme
00:44:31court took up take meaning that supreme court and you know what is supreme court it's not a god
00:44:38no of course not yeah so that that took a view of that kind so it's okay so here also the if the
00:44:45fundamental rights if absolute fundamental right came in the way of certain things then people
00:44:52could have challenged in our supreme court in our supreme court also would have followed the same
00:44:57path yeah and said that no state has a police power that is a different thing than incorporating
00:45:03into the constitution itself the leakages leakages so these these are the kinds of
00:45:12but why people are not deficient oh that is what I wonder because it's not my subject again I'm not a
00:45:19law expert and I would never call myself no no because it would seem that there's a real
00:45:24intellectuals on behalf of people should have found out such kind of lacuna and said so yeah
00:45:31whatever consequence you know so but the consequences are for us to see now
00:45:36so because they did not say we have come to this point people blindly keep on sort of
00:45:43um because it gets the crowd no gets the crowd mobilized and I don't know like yeah so it's a
00:45:50certain kind I mean we also believe in it so much that yeah so there's this kind of intricate
00:45:57arguments would not be would not communicate speech but no but it's good to sort of churn
00:46:08the people who are on ground exactly they might take the essential the people they would be able
00:46:13to communicate through their activism but if if you follow that kind of line
00:46:19at the intellectual level so that becomes problematic completely you also talked about
00:46:24in this you touched upon it briefly about the congress and all of this in the sense about
00:46:30capitalism the industrially industrialist the industry that was established in terms of
00:46:35you know public private and privatization you have talked about a lot you know the growing
00:46:39capitalism and the kind of capitalism that is coming in and this privatization of everything
00:46:45now you know so the privatization that is happening right why are these models not
00:46:51suited to India because they invoke America and meritocracy and all of these things and
00:46:55then they say reservation because you know ultimately progressive
00:47:00taxation
00:47:03so I you know there's a lot of like this all noise coming in from different different like areas
00:47:08how do you how do you sift through that noise and what is suitable this there's this privatization
00:47:13they always make and you have written about this also the effectiveness of privatization
00:47:20you know they keep talking that they are more efficient and then they'll take some examples
00:47:23here and there and say education did not really work with the government healthcare you talked
00:47:28about it's it's a nightmare because you know for a small thing like a poor family how can they go
00:47:33to a hospital because the bills will run into lakhs so I mean these are the things that we are
00:47:39looking at even even school education in my time I went to a convent missionary convent
00:47:44the fees was just for 200 250 rupees or whatever something like that yeah now you the schools I
00:47:51mean if I had a child I don't think I would be able to afford any education for that child
00:47:57because there's like point system in Delhi there's all these kinds of demarcations
00:48:01I mean I'm very afraid to fall sick because you know I don't know how much money it will cost
00:48:07for you to and this I saw in America I studied in America for a bit and there were so many people
00:48:12who are out of jobs right so they would just die because they don't have insurance I mean it's
00:48:17it's so sad when you look at I mean even the schooling system you know there's this book
00:48:21I read by Jonathan Kozol who talks about the inequality so you tie the property tax to a
00:48:26certain district and obviously the well-to-do districts will always have better school better
00:48:30opportunities and a poor district which quote-unquote have criminals who quote-unquote
00:48:36are black people because of certain histories or whatever oppression then the school system
00:48:40will fail so you see that the cycle is endless how does it absolutely yeah and it's so hopeless
00:48:47sometimes that you like how you said you felt sad no no of course that social talking about
00:48:52socialism as an antidote to capitalism etc is something like light years away
00:49:00so let's not get into that but then what is this privatization but actually very indirectly without
00:49:06uttering those words the world is showing it very very clear manner that the planet cannot
00:49:16survive without socialism without social society becomes socialist then only the human race would
00:49:26survive okay this is very coming very clearly when socialism is out of passion
00:49:35it's something like a derogative term all those kinds of things whatever happens
00:49:42see they let me explain now those people who say you know and dictum is that private is very
00:49:48efficient and all it's all absolute nonsense i have written i have written in a very respected
00:49:54journals also explaining this yeah yeah by training i'm a management person yeah and i can
00:50:01challenge anyone in my discipline yeah and not only theoretically i have managed company okay i
00:50:07was ceo of a company so there should not be any doubt about it in anybody's mind so i feel
00:50:19amused sometimes so all these kinds of half-baked idiots yeah writing about
00:50:25like private is efficient etc is nothing like okay it all depends upon how you configure
00:50:33how you structure your processes okay in a public sector also you could out-compete
00:50:40i kept on saying something like when reliance was coming in all industry most of my career
00:50:48went in all industry so in management meetings i used to challenge that if we actually do this
00:50:54kinds of things gear up ourselves they nobody nobody may not only reliance etc but not even
00:51:02a multinational can enter this country yeah okay this is a huge opportunity for us but
00:51:08but the entire process would be so structured that only competent people only would rise
00:51:14and they would say yes sir you know yes sir is the dictum you have to say yes sir to the board
00:51:21and it ultimately go this yes sir series of yes sir and end somewhere in a single person
00:51:27single person everywhere yeah that's what this kind of thing yeah so let's not take that kind
00:51:35of thing that's absolute lie yeah constructed by theoreticians of austrian schools etc
00:51:43that private is efficient but where are we heading with all this is what like if you look at we
00:51:50covered a lot of the adivasi issues you know in Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh and the the firstly
00:51:58the religions are now appropriation you know all kinds of things are happening but it's terrible
00:52:04in the way that firstly we like we also did not know the adivasi situation because we were never
00:52:10taught about that firstly school books so we had no idea that this also happened and this also
00:52:18existed and we found out only recently you knew that there are indigenous people but you didn't
00:52:23know the entire like the not the entire even basics right like what they were fighting about
00:52:28what their problems were and that also created creates this situation of no empathy right if
00:52:33i don't know you how will i feel for you and that is creating a lot of these kinds of issues and
00:52:37obviously media itself is to be blamed in a lot of ways because we also come from different
00:52:43backgrounds and we don't understand this unless until you make the effort to unlearn and then
00:52:48kind of learn again but who would do that but where are we heading like with all this confusion
00:52:53and all this persistence of caste and now i would say even the adivasi nobody was talking about it
00:53:00maybe people were but they were never given the mic so no so now while we were talking about
00:53:06capitalism now it's not a capitalism of marxist time exactly okay it evolved into something like
00:53:13ended up and that is also crisis impelled kind of capitalism which actually took a form of
00:53:19neoliberal capitalism yeah and even now obviously capitalism can never sustain it doesn't have
00:53:26inherent strength to sustain itself but it is sustained so so that's what so it has come to
00:53:31neoliberalism which is rather to be read as a failure of the capitalist model yeah so that it
00:53:38comes to neoliberalism neoliberalism again is a failed thing okay so now it comes to something
00:53:45like it now taking kind of support of fascist rulers you know so all over the world the
00:53:57capitalism can this neoliberal is a theoretical kind of thing i am speaking about the neoliberalism
00:54:08also failed and it degenerated into something like a fascist systems okay only fascist system
00:54:14can sustain whatever that remains of capitalism yeah so entire world you will see right from
00:54:20america down to bangladesh or anywhere the same kind of systems will be there all fascist regimes
00:54:28are cropping up to just sustain suppress people to suppress people and kind of give
00:54:37philip to capital yeah so in this process the cronies are developed yeah okay this again
00:54:43cronism is a byproduct of this process this process and it's everywhere it's not it's not
00:54:48something like company adani's exist only in india everywhere it is the same yeah so this
00:54:56is the process needs to be understood properly and probably not fully yet understood but broadly
00:55:03speaking this can be put like this that capitalism does not have a strength to sustain itself it's
00:55:09not a sustainable system at all yeah so because it depends upon profit yeah okay profit is the
00:55:18thing so profit is nothing but something like sucking something you know exploitative so where
00:55:24does it suck it suck it from ultimately yeah you if you model the world then the things would be
00:55:30clear you know so that that picture you know in a model term would be clear that it cannot suck
00:55:36endlessly because clearly capitalism doesn't teach you how to love and maybe the other models may
00:55:42might teach you i don't know if you have like you know the james baldwin thing of politics of love
00:55:48and i think that's something which is lacking completely now people will have to create the
00:55:54something like what we call a socialist system so that's the only way that the human race will
00:56:00survive this planet will survive otherwise this accumulation drive which we did have
00:56:05accumulation drive is the intrinsic to capitalism completely and it it does not have end you know
00:56:14there is no limit it does not limit no limit no limit and india also had this fabian socialism
00:56:20model that they so this climate change the so many kind of crisis that are befalling the planet
00:56:27itself are we manifestations of that are the products of this process is there any hope for
00:56:33people who are like you know we were talking about all these other people like how people are still
00:56:39in jail you know even in bhima kodigaon where you were there i mean is there any hope for the poor
00:56:44like let's say somebody who's earning sixteen thousand rupees per month you know how do they
00:56:49save how do they even know it is coming to something like distributing free ration to them
00:56:55what is free ration to 83 crores of people so this is the this is not some people are just
00:57:02going to die like that it's not a freebies it's not a freebie it's a it's a systematic
00:57:07kind of strategy to deal with the situation because situation will come to that people
00:57:14so the multitude of masses will not have any wherewithal even to survive but even now they
00:57:18don't have but these are see so but problem is that how do you manage these people you know
00:57:24these idiots you know ultimately are nuisance so just feed them like pigs you know like pig stays
00:57:33and keep them just like that so where will they live everywhere no they would not realize that
00:57:39essential things are and they would look uh upward no that okay
00:57:47no not just that see i'm also seeing like let's say people in our organization right
00:57:53journalism is not a very well-paying job any which ways also dangerous in some ways if you are
00:57:57like trying to do yeah now how do you do outsourcing contract lodging
00:58:04you can realize if you look at the reality then you'd real i mean unless you are on role of a
00:58:11company or somewhere you get reasonably paid but what about others because
00:58:17from our time from our time this now now almost 80 more than 50 percent people are just on
00:58:27outsourced contracted it's terrible kind of labor and they get pittance you know for the same salary
00:58:33that when they get old we used to pay 10 times regular salary to these kinds of work in fact
00:58:39so it doesn't have any relation with the kind of work people do and remuneration they get not at
00:58:45all not at all and then you also look down upon for being a certain work kind of worker this is
00:58:50what this is what gets valorized in neoliberal thing because that's a market market you know
00:58:55yeah because i remember growing up we didn't see so much and now we see that i feel worried about
00:59:01let's say some of our people who you know even if you earn one lakh rupees a month
00:59:06you cannot save how do you save and then if you don't say where do you end up you cannot you
00:59:12cannot have something like go to bridge candy or the reliance hospital with just a executive
00:59:19checkup for us it is this thing at the 40,000 rupees completely no even like they do not do
00:59:27like let's say a driver who earns 16,000 rupees he cannot even go for a full body
00:59:31checkup and this is not but then the thing is then they'll say is the responsibility of the
00:59:37the oxfam stat if i recall right 63 percent people are driven to poverty because of the
00:59:46health care exactly yeah okay yeah so all this thing i i would i had written also somewhere
00:59:54that if ambedkar had concentrated only on three four things yeah the constitution could have been
01:00:02just five six pages yeah and that would have worked much better probably for the majority of
01:00:08people yeah but they have all these people have taken a steady stand as if state is a soft soft
01:00:13toy you know the nation is a soft toy to be stolen by someone yeah security national security etc
01:00:21is all humbug you know there's not like earlier time that you come with guns or swords on horses
01:00:29and the kind of digital processes that go on you know like financing the finance clause etc
01:00:38the there lies country's independence whether it is getting eroded or not where there lies
01:00:45the nationality and these people are playing with that yeah but just because it is not visible we
01:00:49do not understand the country is getting sold you know public debt for instance is getting
01:00:55accumulated this man has accumulated more than three times you know during the last 10 years
01:01:00now what existed for 70 years yeah but how do people understand i don't know
01:01:07economics phds also do not understand these processes i think the daily
01:01:12macroeconomic structures of a country etc this is not easily understood the ruling classes
01:01:20play with that completely and my last thing is you know there's national security what is this
01:01:25thing they are endangering their national security more than anybody else exactly terrorism for
01:01:31instance is a bloody business it's not a everywhere in the world nobody has any
01:01:37any time or resource to be terrorist i really do not believe in any story of terrorism yeah
01:01:46no it's i mean i see people and i feel like really sad it's all politically
01:01:52concocted yeah because i mean it's so difficult to look at the reality that is happening in front
01:01:56of you nothing nothing and what about like the last questions mandal and kamandal people keep
01:02:01talking about it seems to be stuck between the two or like i don't know what it is so have you
01:02:07thought about which one mandal and kamandal this this is oh that is old story you know like the
01:02:13religion thing in the caste much much beyond now mandal kamandal and they keep talking about the
01:02:18caste census see that mandal kamandal i i think i wrote a lot about that and even republic of
01:02:25caste i explained yeah in context of preservation so that that was a mischief again you know that
01:02:32these ruling classes even those times very well sounding founding fathers etc we call them
01:02:39also were not out of this power game so they wanted you know india is and ended with
01:02:49two things to manage masses divide masses keep people divided caste is the most unique thing
01:02:57that india's and has ruling classes and all men yeah and second is a religion it's a sizable
01:03:04kinds of minorities somewhere formed in india and these two things came very handy for them
01:03:11and they would never let it go go yeah of them so this they devise you don't know it's a long
01:03:20process i would not elaborate but the elaboration of reservation schedule caste because this came
01:03:28in colonial times it's not an independent india has given it it came in with independent act 1935
01:03:36schedule was prepared the schedule did not have a clause that it would be opened up because schedule
01:03:41was prepared to an independent india when they adopted because nobody could have not adopted it
01:03:48you know in that situation so they purpose adopted it and but created a mischief that
01:03:56precedent can add or delete exactly and that so that frozen schedule which could have been a kind
01:04:06of class unbeknownst to even the creators they also did not imagine british colonial fellows
01:04:13perhaps that they unknowingly created a class yeah okay and snapped that umbilical cord with
01:04:20the hindu caste system completely which is a so radical a state that the annihilation of caste
01:04:27was just a mile a couple of feet away and then the independence and constitution makers actually
01:04:36squandered it yeah and they opened up the schedule and created space for politics completely okay
01:04:42they extended this reservation reservation could be an exceptional policy for exceptional people
01:04:48it is a multi-age sword yeah so that again by extending it to schedule tribes you know that was
01:04:57extension it i'm never meaning that they should not be getting some such state support etc but
01:05:04reservation is not a only meaning something like a only tool to do such help people you know there
01:05:11are a net number of ways of doing things and thereafter they extended it to backward caste
01:05:18yeah the backward caste whose definition also they did not know socially and educationally
01:05:22backward and country like india such a backward country the every caste has that kind of section
01:05:30completely what do you do with that how do you address that then so how do you deal with this
01:05:34backwardness the backwardness paradigm again supreme court talks about that in the sub
01:05:39classification it's a nonsense yeah because backwardness was not a issue in schedule caste
01:05:46reservation no it's only untouchability sole criteria was untouchability because with that
01:05:52kind of thing they howsoever they were meritorious howsoever they were rich that was the howsoever
01:05:58they were rich they would this society would not acknowledge it exactly and give them their dues
01:06:04so there had to be something like a countervailing force of the state
01:06:08to kind of to counter it exactly counter the societal prejudice that is the only premise
01:06:15behind this now these people actually extended to backwardness equality all that kind of nonsense
01:06:23inequality in india is now at the zenith okay it never existed in india's history yeah and
01:06:31they are not bothered about that they are bothered about inequality among ss yeah what a joke yeah
01:06:38it is actually supreme court supreme court speaks like that and it takes the valorized and
01:06:43interprets in the way it likes it's actually really strange because then you have the denotified
01:06:49tribe we in fact did a story on that also and how what are they struggling with a criminal tag from
01:06:54god knows when and they're they whatever they are doing they're being lynched whatever i mean it's
01:06:59just a country like they just created a confluence you know the people would only get confused
01:07:07completely nothing like criminal tribes exist today also everything nothing has gone everything
01:07:13exists no and as a woman like people say okay i'm educated i'm doing some that but where how am i
01:07:19free like there is a gaze there is this judgment there's that judgment all kinds of things happening
01:07:24and we're not able to see it or maybe we'll see it we're like okay
01:07:29it's one lifetime but actually it's sad and what are you working on a book you had said
01:07:36when is it coming now my first book post jail term
01:07:44i was scheduled this that was the biography i think i told you yeah yeah and i wrote before
01:07:51going to jail biography of ambedkar it was a sponsored kind of work yeah so i thought i
01:08:00completed it but then it was not so it the process is paused after coming back then i
01:08:07almost rewrote it which was scheduled to come in april but some mishap happened
01:08:12okay production process and now it is coming next month and what are you working on now any like
01:08:19another jail memoir also might be coming next month you've written it already i've already given
01:08:24it oh wow that's great now i'm working on something like revision of there are two three books
01:08:32simultaneously i work on so many things yeah so whichever completes i do not know you never felt
01:08:37like you should you not have left that life to come into this life you know like the dreamers
01:08:42of equality what happened like sudha bharadwaj i mean all of that previous life
01:08:56you would still do it this yeah no absolutely no regrets it's good
01:09:01actually this is a good experience to see a world whatever i was
01:09:07saying or writing bit with rhetoric etc has been had an opportunity to see it from intimate
01:09:17yeah vantage points point vantage point so jail life
01:09:25thank you so much it's always so delightful to talk to you and thank you for having us over
01:09:30yeah thank you