“An Artist has no Caste": Chinki Sinha in conversation with Madhubani artist Shanti Devi
Not so long ago, Shanti Devi, a Madhubani artist, had no pucca house. She had been married at a young age and remembers her struggles to even paint.
“I was chased by an upper caste man when I tried to paint scenes from Ramayana,” she says.
Shanti Devi, who belongs to the Paswan caste that comes under the Scheduled Caste category, says artists like her who were the so-called “untouchables” in the Mithila region weren’t allowed to paint gods and goddesses.
She had called a panchayat in her village many years ago to stress upon her freedom as an artist.
“An artist has no caste,” she says.
But freedom doesn’t come easy. She is a woman and for women, freedom is still a dream.
“There is that patriarchy that cuts across caste and class and I have seen how it can torment you,” she says.
In an interview with Outlook at the Bihar Museum where she was part of a contingent of 30 artists who are practitioners of folk art forms of Bihar, she says she decided to paint a scene from Ashok Vatika where Sita had been held captive.
Vaidehi Sita was curated as an ode to Sita from Ramayan at the Bihar Museum.
“Sita was powerful. She suffered. She was abandoned and she chose to return to nature and not suffer more indignities. That’s why I have painted the garden so beautifully,” Shanti Devi says. “Sita came from earth. And by returning to it, she freed herself.”
“I was chased by an upper caste man when I tried to paint scenes from Ramayana,” she says.
Shanti Devi, who belongs to the Paswan caste that comes under the Scheduled Caste category, says artists like her who were the so-called “untouchables” in the Mithila region weren’t allowed to paint gods and goddesses.
She had called a panchayat in her village many years ago to stress upon her freedom as an artist.
“An artist has no caste,” she says.
But freedom doesn’t come easy. She is a woman and for women, freedom is still a dream.
“There is that patriarchy that cuts across caste and class and I have seen how it can torment you,” she says.
In an interview with Outlook at the Bihar Museum where she was part of a contingent of 30 artists who are practitioners of folk art forms of Bihar, she says she decided to paint a scene from Ashok Vatika where Sita had been held captive.
Vaidehi Sita was curated as an ode to Sita from Ramayan at the Bihar Museum.
“Sita was powerful. She suffered. She was abandoned and she chose to return to nature and not suffer more indignities. That’s why I have painted the garden so beautifully,” Shanti Devi says. “Sita came from earth. And by returning to it, she freed herself.”
Transcript
00:00We are with Shanti Devi ji, and she is making a scene from her life, which scene is it?
00:20This is Ashok Bhatka, which was brought by Ravan ji after kidnapping Sita ji.
00:28It is kept in Ashok Bhatka in Lanka.
00:31Hanuman ji is giving it to us as a ring.
00:33Hanuman ji has given us his introduction, but we don't know him.
00:37He said, come in front of me with the ring.
00:39Hanuman ji has come in a huge form.
00:44He has a long face.
00:48He says, I am the messenger of Ram, Hanuman ji.
00:51Take the ring, Mata ji.
00:53He recognized him and is taking the ring.
00:55You are making a beautiful flower bed in Ashok Bhatka.
00:59How do you imagine all this?
01:01In Ashok Bhatka, there are many types of flowers and gardens.
01:06Hanuman ji was very happy to see the flowers and fruits of Lanka.
01:13He was very happy.
01:15Why did you set fire to Lanka?
01:17I set fire to Lanka to bring Sita ji.
01:19How did you bring such a pure mother?
01:23I ate a few fruits and killed everyone.
01:29You did wrong.
01:31I killed the whole of Lanka.
01:33How did I do wrong?
01:35Why did I bring Sita ji?
01:37You have heard the story of Sita ji since childhood.
01:40Who is Sita ji?
01:42Mata ji is read in the Ramayana.
01:49It is said that Sita ji did not have a daughter.
01:55I have heard and read about it.
01:59When we went to South India, we used to take a painting of Ram and Sita to Bangalore and Madras.
02:05We used to do like this.
02:09Why did we do this?
02:11They used to tell us that Ram has killed Ravana ji.
02:15We don't want to take the painting of Ram.
02:18We didn't know that much.
02:20I have read Balmiki Ramayana.
02:25I started reading Balmiki Ramayana when I was a child.
02:31What is the meaning of Ramayana?
02:34There is so much happening in the country.
02:36Balmiki Ramayana did not go to South India.
02:41That's why they used to see Ravana as the king.
02:46They don't believe in Ram and Sita.
02:48What is the meaning of Sita?
02:50Sita is from Bihar.
02:52Ravana read a book in Bihar.
02:57In that book, it was written that there is only a daughter in South India.
03:05My daughter is yet to come.
03:08She will destroy us all.
03:10They told me about Madodiri.
03:17They told me that Madodiri will destroy us all.
03:21What will we do now?
03:23Madodiri knew the whole story.
03:25I will tell you in brief.
03:27They took Madodiri as a child.
03:31Ravana threw her away.
03:33I am forgetting the name of that saint.
03:36He gave her to some king.
03:39Ravana went to that house as a priest.
03:44He told Ravana to send Madodiri to King Janak of North India.
03:50He threw her away.
03:52She is from North India.
03:54He threw her away.
03:56She will be destroyed in North India.
04:01What did that man do?
04:04I will tell you his name.
04:06He took Madodiri and told Ravana.
04:11Janak of North India told Ravana that he will have a daughter.
04:17He has three daughters.
04:19Janak of North India will give you a loan.
04:24You will have to give him a loan.
04:28You will have to give him a loan.
04:31Earlier, the Brahmins did not touch the plough.
04:37They thought about what to do.
04:43Rani Sunaina said,
04:46The Akashwani is real.
04:49You should see it once.
04:51That is what Sita Ji found.
04:52He kept her in the plough.
05:01The daughter of the earth.
05:03He kept her in the plough.
05:06He did not keep the plough.
05:08He kept the plough.
05:10He kept the plough.
05:13You take care of her.
05:15If Janak Ji comes, leave soon.
05:18Do you sing a song of Sita Ji?
05:20Do you sing a song of Sita Ji?
05:22I sing.
05:24I sing.
05:26Sing a song of Sita Ji.
05:28Whichever you like.
05:31Sita Ji.
05:34She was born.
05:36She was born.
05:38Whichever you like.
05:40Sita Ji.
05:42Hanuman Ji.
05:44Sita Ji was doing vermillion.
05:47Hanuman Ji saw her.
05:49Mother, so much vermillion.
05:52It looks beautiful.
05:54Why is it like this?
05:56He said,
05:58Your Lord will come.
06:00Hanuman Ji.
06:02Ram Ji.
06:04If he sees, he will be very happy.
06:07Hanuman Ji thought,
06:09A little vermillion.
06:11Ram Ji.
06:13The Lord will be so happy.
06:15The vermillion in the house.
06:18He covered Sita Ji with the vermillion.
06:21He covered her with the vermillion.
06:24To make her happy.
06:26Ram Ji ran away.
06:28Sita Ji came.
06:30He also came.
06:32What is this?
06:34He asked Sita Ji,
06:36What is this?
06:38She said,
06:40You are happy.
06:42I am very happy.
06:44He covered her with the vermillion.
06:46Mother said,
06:49The vermillion fell.
06:52The Lord appeared and left.
06:55Sita Ji said,
07:00I will sing a song.
07:02Yes, you sing.
07:03You will understand.
07:34Sita Ji asked,
07:36Where is my beloved?
07:38Sita Ji asked,
07:40Where is my beloved?
07:42Sita Ji asked,
07:44Where is my beloved?
07:46Sita Ji asked,
07:48Where is my beloved?
07:50Sita Ji asked,
07:52Where is my beloved?
07:54Sita Ji asked,
07:56Where is my beloved?
07:58Sita Ji asked,
08:00Where is my beloved?
08:01Sita Ji asked,
08:03Where is my beloved?
08:05She sang very well.
08:15This is the turning.
08:17Hence it is called Lal Lal Ranka.
08:19Sita Ji sang the song.
08:21Yes!
08:23Note that you are the fan of Lal Ranka.
08:25Sorry,
08:28You are from Madhubani.
08:29You are from Madhubani. You teach at the university, right?
08:32No, no. My husband teaches.
08:35Why does your husband teach?
08:37He tells me to teach.
08:39To teach?
08:40To teach. No, no, no.
08:41What will happen to this art?
08:42I don't want to live in slavery.
08:44Why? I won't live inside anyone.
08:46I am my own thing.
08:48Free, free.
08:49Like Sita ji, you are free.
08:50Free and prevalent.
08:52No escape.
08:54No thinking.
08:56I am only thinking, oh, what an elephant, what a horse,
08:59what a man, what a Jharput,
09:01what a child,
09:03what a Bhalwari,
09:05what a daughter,
09:07what a son,
09:09and anybody.
09:11And Sita ji,
09:13Janakpur Dham is like this.
09:15Sita Madhi is so sweet.
09:17The girls there are so beautiful.
09:19Don't ask.
09:21Very beautiful.
09:23Like you, nose, mouth,
09:25heart colour.
09:27Red, red.
09:29Very beautiful.
09:31What is happening with art now?
09:33Earlier,
09:35it was tradition, now you are teaching.
09:37Yes, art is now...
09:39There was a caste system in this.
09:41Yes, there was a caste system.
09:43In all these days,
09:45in all these days,
09:47this is not the first time,
09:49this is the third time,
09:51I have received orders three times,
09:53I have made Ramayana.
09:55I have made Sita Ramayana.
09:57You were told not to make it.
09:59I was told not to make Ramayana.
10:01Many people say, Ramayana is mine,
10:03Mahabharata is mine.
10:05Whose Ramayana is it?
10:07Ramayana is for all of you.
10:09Everyone has a caste.
10:11There is no caste for an artist.
10:13What is the caste of a human being?
10:15There is no caste.
10:17Look at the children,
10:19they are getting married.
10:21Earlier,
10:23Ram, Sita, Lakshman,
10:25Bharat, Satruhan,
10:27Janakji used to make it,
10:29Ghora, Hathi used to make it.
10:31Now, since the 80s and 80s,
10:33there have been meetings,
10:35Jhara Naray, Jatiyari,
10:37Handicrafts, HV Mishra,
10:39all of you have a caste.
10:41There is worship.
10:43So, if you say,
10:45I will make it.
10:47It is of the Kshatriya caste,
10:49but it is from the mouth of a mother.
10:51One day,
10:53I will write it down for you.
10:55You will not be able to hear it.
10:57It is so long.
10:59It was given to me by my mother.
11:01I kept it and left.
11:03The children of Agla,
11:05Thandha in Nepal,
11:07all the deities went to Nepal.
11:09That is where the worship comes from.
11:11So, Sitaji is also saying,
11:13we are from Nepal.
11:15Sitaji is also in Nepal.
11:17Ramji has come to India.
11:19In UP.
11:21Here, the groom is Ramji.
11:23One son,
11:25Dasarath's son,
11:27four sons,
11:29one son is Dasarath's son,
11:31and the other
11:33is sitting in Ghat-Ghat.
11:35The one sitting inside
11:37is Ramji's son,
11:39Dasarath's son.
11:41Son to son, son to son.
11:43How did you learn this?
11:45My mother used to do it.
11:47On the wall?
11:49Yes, on the wall.
11:51But my mother did not know about this.
11:53When I went to my in-laws' house in 1976,
11:55my mother-in-law used to do it on the wall.
11:57You used to do it too?
11:59Mother-in-law?
12:01On the wall.
12:03Then, the white elephant
12:05started.
12:07We were very poor.
12:09So, I said,
12:11I will not stay at home.
12:13I will work.
12:15What did you do?
12:17I opened a school.
12:19I earned 100 rupees a month.
12:21I built a school.
12:23I saw it in the school.
12:25It is in Vidut House.
12:27It is still going on.
12:29I saw it.
12:31I remembered.
12:33I earned 80 rupees a month.
12:35I built this school.
12:37The white elephant.
12:39I remembered it today.
12:41When I went to my in-laws' house,
12:43I earned 100 rupees.
12:45I gave them 20 rupees.
12:47I gave them 80 rupees.
12:49I bought household items.
12:51My father-in-law
12:53used to cook.
12:55He used to cook.
12:57He used to cook.
12:59Your husband is also a great artist.
13:01Yes.
13:03You are an international artist.
13:05You have won many awards.
13:07I have won all the awards.
13:09I am still doing it.
13:11Do you think
13:13this art will survive?
13:15It will survive.
13:17It will continue.
13:19I have taught 5000 children.
13:21Countries like Japan,
13:23Germany, Denmark, Norway,
13:25Malaysia, Dubai, Hong Kong,
13:27Bangkok, Singapore.
13:29Where have you reached?
13:31I have gone to so many places.
13:33I have taught people there.
13:35Will you be able to perform on 7th?
13:37Yes, I will be able to perform on 7th.
13:39I know Japanese people very well.
13:43You have lived a good life.
13:45I went to Denmark.
13:47I did not learn Danish.
13:49I did not learn it.
13:51I went to so many places.
13:53I learned Kannada,
13:55Tamil, Telugu.
13:57I learned all the languages.
13:59When I came back,
14:01I was very happy.
14:07I learned Tamil.
14:09You did not wear a dress.
14:11You wore a sari.
14:13I wore a sari.
14:15Did you make a house?
14:17Yes, I made a house.
14:19Where did you keep the money?
14:21I gave it to Jail Singh.
14:23How old was he?
14:25He was 84 years old.
14:27Where did you keep the money?
14:29I took a notebook
14:31and took it to him.
14:33I saw everything.
14:35He used to write on it.
14:37He used to write on it.
14:39He used to write on it.
14:41He used to write on it.
14:43He used to write on it.
14:45He still does it.
14:47I had a brain.
14:49I would not let him catch me.
14:51Otherwise, he would snatch it.
14:53I would say,
14:55Sir, take this.
14:57He gave it to me.
14:59I do not have a house.
15:01You did not have a house?
15:03My house was destroyed.
15:05My house was destroyed.
15:07I will send him the painting.
15:09I will send him the painting.
15:11Did you make a house?
15:13He said,
15:15I will send him the painting.
15:17He said,
15:25I will make a house.
15:27That is fine.
15:29I jumped.
15:31Oh my God, it smells so good!
15:36Yes, go ahead.
15:38My husband says 182,000, but no.
15:42Only 62,000.
15:45He said, when is the ticket?
15:47I said, tomorrow.
15:48He said, the day after tomorrow you will get it.
15:50Go to Patna, Sachibala and get it.
15:55Did you get it?
15:56Yes, I came to Patna.
15:58It started at the same time.
16:01This is the old one.
16:03The secretariat is over there.
16:07The palace is over there.
16:09That is the old one.
16:10This is the new one.
16:11Did you build a house?
16:12Yes, we built a house.
16:14What kind of house is it now?
16:15Is it a permanent house?
16:16Yes, it is a permanent house.
16:17We built it ourselves.
16:19The children built it.
16:21We bought a house on the road.
16:23But the president's house is still there.
16:26There is no pillar in it.
16:28There is not a single pillar.
16:30It started from the 30s.
16:32In the 20s, 15s and 10s,
16:35nothing has moved.
16:37It is still such a good house.
16:39Do you live here?
16:40Yes, we live here.
16:42The whole house is decorated.
16:44Everything is decorated.
16:46It is made in my house.
16:48I will show you.
16:50Is everything on the wall in your house?
16:52Everything is on the wall.
16:54Now there is a gulambar.
16:56The chariot that was made in Mahabharata.
17:00Do you make these scenes only from Mahabharata and Ramayana?
17:04No, I make them from the story of Raja Salesh.
17:07There is a story of Godhna in Raja Salesh.
17:10And this is it.
17:11You have just started Ramayana, right?
17:13Yes, Ramayana.
17:14What caste are you from?
17:16I am from the 5th caste.
17:185th caste.
17:19There was a lot of caste in Bihar earlier, right?
17:22Yes, there was a lot.
17:24Now there is a Bhuva Devi.
17:26She is sitting there.
17:28With her, I used to make paintings and go to her house.
17:33Her Ghotini.
17:35Do you know Ghotini?
17:36Yes, Ghotini.
17:37What did she do?
17:38Where I used to sit,
17:40she used to remove the soil from there.
17:44She was a Brahmin.
17:46Yes, she was a Brahmin.
17:48Was Brahmin different?
17:50Everyone is the same.
17:51But she was different.
17:53But you used to say that the Dalit people could not use colour.
17:57They had to make it black.
17:58No, I used to make it with flowers.
18:00Where did I get the money?
18:0210 rupees for a new cup.
18:04Not good.
18:05There were so many colours.
18:07I used to sell it for 2 rupees.
18:10They could have done Ramayana earlier.
18:12You could not do it?
18:13No, later.
18:14Later.
18:15They could not do it.
18:16They could not do it.
18:17They could not do it.
18:19I used to run after them.
18:22They used to run after you?
18:24Yes, they used to run after me.
18:27I was young.
18:30I was like them.
18:32You ran after them?
18:34Yes.
18:35I used to run after them.
18:36I used to run after them.
18:37I used to run after them.
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19:35I have eaten betel leaf.
19:36Why have you eaten betel leaf?
19:37I have eaten betel leaf.
19:38I have eaten betel leaf.
19:39I have eaten betel leaf.
19:40I have eaten betel leaf.
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20:25I have eaten betel leaf.
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20:27I have eaten betel leaf.
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21:10I have eaten betel leaf.
21:11I have eaten betel leaf.
21:12I have eaten betel leaf.
21:13I have eaten betel leaf.
21:14I have eaten betel leaf.
21:15I have eaten betel leaf.
21:16I have eaten betel leaf.
21:17I have eaten betel leaf.
21:18I have eaten betel leaf.
21:19I have eaten betel leaf.
21:20I have eaten betel leaf.
21:21I have eaten betel leaf.
21:22I have eaten betel leaf.
21:23I have eaten betel leaf.
21:24I have eaten betel leaf.
21:25I have eaten betel leaf.
21:26I have eaten betel leaf.
21:27I have eaten betel leaf.
21:28I have eaten betel leaf.
21:29I have eaten betel leaf.
21:30I have eaten betel leaf.
21:31I have eaten betel leaf.
21:32I have eaten betel leaf.
21:33I have eaten betel leaf.
21:34I have eaten betel leaf.
21:35I have eaten betel leaf.
21:36I have eaten betel leaf.
21:37I have eaten betel leaf.
21:38I have eaten betel leaf.
21:39I have eaten betel leaf.
21:40I have eaten betel leaf.
21:41I have eaten betel leaf.
21:42I have eaten betel leaf.
21:43I have eaten betel leaf.
21:44I have eaten betel leaf.
21:45I have eaten betel leaf.
21:46I have eaten betel leaf.
21:47I have eaten betel leaf.
21:48I have eaten betel leaf.
21:49I have eaten betel leaf.
21:50I have eaten betel leaf.
21:51I have eaten betel leaf.
21:52I have eaten betel leaf.
21:53I have eaten betel leaf.
21:54I have eaten betel leaf.
21:55I have eaten betel leaf.
21:56I have eaten betel leaf.
21:57I have eaten betel leaf.
21:58I have eaten betel leaf.
21:59I have eaten betel leaf.
22:00I have eaten betel leaf.
22:01I have eaten betel leaf.
22:02I have eaten betel leaf.
22:03I have eaten betel leaf.
22:04I have eaten betel leaf.
22:05I have eaten betel leaf.
22:06I have eaten betel leaf.
22:07I have eaten betel leaf.
22:08I have eaten betel leaf.
22:09I have eaten betel leaf.
22:10I have eaten betel leaf.
22:11I have eaten betel leaf.
22:12I have eaten betel leaf.
22:13I have eaten betel leaf.
22:14I have eaten betel leaf.
22:15I have eaten betel leaf.
22:16I have eaten betel leaf.
22:17I have eaten betel leaf.
22:18I have eaten betel leaf.
22:19I have eaten betel leaf.
22:20I have eaten betel leaf.
22:21I have eaten betel leaf.
22:22I have eaten betel leaf.
22:23I have eaten betel leaf.
22:24I have eaten betel leaf.
22:25I have eaten betel leaf.
22:26I have eaten betel leaf.
22:27I have eaten betel leaf.
22:28I have eaten betel leaf.
22:29I have eaten betel leaf.
22:30I have eaten betel leaf.
22:31I have eaten betel leaf.
22:32I have eaten betel leaf.
22:33I have eaten betel leaf.
22:34I have eaten betel leaf.
22:35I have eaten betel leaf.
22:36I have eaten betel leaf.
22:37I have eaten betel leaf.
22:38I have eaten betel leaf.
22:39I have eaten betel leaf.
22:40I have eaten betel leaf.
22:41I have eaten betel leaf.
22:42I have eaten betel leaf.
22:43I have eaten betel leaf.
22:44I have eaten betel leaf.
22:45I have eaten betel leaf.
22:46I have eaten betel leaf.
22:47I have eaten betel leaf.
22:48I have eaten betel leaf.
22:49I have eaten betel leaf.
22:50I have eaten betel leaf.
22:51I have eaten betel leaf.
22:52I have eaten betel leaf.
22:53I have eaten betel leaf.
22:54I have eaten betel leaf.
22:55I have eaten betel leaf.
22:56I have eaten betel leaf.
22:57I have eaten betel leaf.
22:58I have eaten betel leaf.
22:59I have eaten betel leaf.
23:00I have eaten betel leaf.
23:01I have eaten betel leaf.
23:02I have eaten betel leaf.
23:03I have eaten betel leaf.
23:04I have eaten betel leaf.
23:05I have eaten betel leaf.
23:06I have eaten betel leaf.
23:07I have eaten betel leaf.
23:08I have eaten betel leaf.
23:09I have eaten betel leaf.
23:10I have eaten betel leaf.
23:11I have eaten betel leaf.
23:12I have eaten betel leaf.
23:13I have eaten betel leaf.
23:14I have eaten betel leaf.
23:15I have eaten betel leaf.
23:16I have eaten betel leaf.
23:17I have eaten betel leaf.
23:18I have eaten betel leaf.
23:19I have eaten betel leaf.
23:20I have eaten betel leaf.
23:21I have eaten betel leaf.
23:22I have eaten betel leaf.
23:23I have eaten betel leaf.
23:24I have eaten betel leaf.
23:25I have eaten betel leaf.
23:26I have eaten betel leaf.
23:27I have eaten betel leaf.
23:28I have eaten betel leaf.
23:29I have eaten betel leaf.
23:30I have eaten betel leaf.
23:31I have eaten betel leaf.
23:32I have eaten betel leaf.
23:33I have eaten betel leaf.
23:34I have eaten betel leaf.
23:36I have eaten betel leaf.
23:37I have eaten betel leaf.
23:38I have eaten betel leaf.
23:39I have eaten betel leaf.
23:40I have eaten betel leaf.
23:41I have eaten betel leaf.
23:42I have eaten betel leaf.
23:43I have eaten betel leaf.
23:44I have eaten betel leaf.
23:45I have eaten betel leaf.
23:46I have eaten betel leaf.
23:47I have eaten betel leaf.
23:48I have eaten betel leaf.
23:49I have eaten betel leaf.
23:50I have eaten betel leaf.
23:51I have eaten betel leaf.
23:52I have eaten betel leaf.
23:53I have eaten betel leaf.
23:54I have eaten betel leaf.
23:55I have eaten betel leaf.
23:56I have eaten betel leaf.
23:57I have eaten betel leaf.
23:58I have eaten betel leaf.
23:59I have eaten betel leaf.
24:00I have eaten betel leaf.
24:01I have eaten betel leaf.
24:02I have eaten betel leaf.
24:03I have eaten betel leaf.
24:04I have eaten betel leaf.
24:05I have eaten betel leaf.
24:06I have eaten betel leaf.
24:07I have eaten betel leaf.
24:08I have eaten betel leaf.
24:09I have eaten betel leaf.
24:10I have eaten betel leaf.
24:11I have eaten betel leaf.
24:12I have eaten betel leaf.
24:13I have eaten betel leaf.
24:14I have eaten betel leaf.
24:15I have eaten betel leaf.
24:16I have eaten betel leaf.
24:17I have eaten betel leaf.
24:18I have eaten betel leaf.
24:19I have eaten betel leaf.
24:20I have eaten betel leaf.
24:21I have eaten betel leaf.
24:22I have eaten betel leaf.
24:23I have eaten betel leaf.