Amanpour & Co. - July 10, 2024
In the U.S., more than 90,000 IVF babies are delivered each year. The practice is not only driving a wedge between political parties but is creating division within the GOP as well. The Economist’s Sacha Nauta explains how Republicans who oppose abortion rights are struggling with the moral argument to ban IVF. Nauta joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss the potential impact on the upcoming election.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:09Today, NATO is stronger than it's ever been in its history.
00:12President Joe Biden vows to stop Putin as world leaders converge on Washington to celebrate
00:1875 years of NATO. But could extreme forces in Europe and America threaten the alliance?
00:25I asked German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock.
00:29Every time the Israeli enemy escalates the situation, we would escalate equally and above.
00:35As strikes and counter-strikes rage across the Israel-Lebanon border, I speak with Hezbollah's
00:41Ibrahim Moussaoui, a member of Lebanon's parliament.
00:45Being uncomfortable with IVF is a logical extension from being uncomfortable with abortion.
00:55Hari Sreenivasan talks to Economist Editor Sasha Nauta about complex moral and political
01:01questions around IVF.
01:03Amanpour & Company is made possible by Jim Atwood and Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir,
01:29the Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poita Programming Endowment to Fight Antisemitism, the Family
01:35Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss, Mark J. Bleschner, the Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation,
01:43Seton J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Gantz Cooney Fund, Charles Rosenblum,
01:51Ku and Patricia Ewen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:56Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz, and Beth Rogers, and by contributions to your PBS station from
02:03viewers like you.
02:07Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:09I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
02:11As world leaders gather in Washington to mark NATO's 75th anniversary, unprecedented challenges
02:17face the alliance, first and foremost, a raging war in Europe, now into its third year.
02:23NATO is stepping up with more critical air defenses for Ukraine after Russia's deadly
02:28strike on infrastructure, including a children's hospital in Kyiv.
02:33Already more Patriot missile systems are headed there.
02:36And the U.S. Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has announced that F-16 jets will finally
02:41be flying over the skies in Ukraine this summer.
02:44Speaking as the summit started last night, President Joe Biden gave a full-throated endorsement.
02:51In Europe, Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine continues.
02:56And Putin wants nothing less, nothing less than Ukraine's total subjugation.
03:02Before this war, Putin thought NATO would break.
03:06Today NATO is stronger than it's ever been in its history.
03:10When this senseless war began, Ukraine was a free country.
03:15Today it is still a free country.
03:18And the war will end with Ukraine remaining a free and independent country.
03:24Indeed, also in Washington, the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky thanked NATO allies for the much-awaited F-16s.
03:32And he challenged the Biden administration not to, quote, shy away from its strength,
03:37urging it to remove restrictions against using those U.S.
03:41weapons on targets inside Russia.
03:44Zelensky also said the whole world is waiting for the U.S. elections in November.
03:50Germany is contributing one of the four patriot systems announced by President Biden.
03:55As its foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, reckons with the many challenges facing Western democracy,
04:01I reached her at NATO to ask about Russia's aggression, the rise of extremism in Europe,
04:08and the threat of an autocratic America under a second Trump government.
04:14Foreign Minister, welcome back to our programme.
04:17Can I ask you whether Ukraine will get the weapons it needs?
04:21Can the alliance, will the alliance provide the air defences, for instance, rapidly keep up with Ukraine's needs?
04:31Thanks for having me again on your show.
04:33We are doing everything here as an alliance to support Ukraine because it's crystal clear that Putin,
04:40and he has underlined it again with the brutality of the last days, also attacking a hospital for children,
04:47that he's not only attacking Ukraine, but he's attacking liberal democracies, the European peace order.
04:55And therefore we do everything to support Ukraine.
04:58Also and especially with air defence, our third patriot system from Germany just reached Ukraine.
05:04And it was very good to hear yesterday from the U.S.
05:07President Biden that they will support Ukraine with further air defence as well.
05:13So you brought up President Biden.
05:15I just wonder whether that's a little bit the elephant in the room as the allies wait to see who's going to run, who's going to be the next president.
05:23Your your Chancellor Olaf Scholz said that he had no concerns and no worries about President Biden's ability to do this job.
05:32What have you been hearing?
05:34What have you what impression have you made of the president?
05:43This alliance is so strong also because of the important role of the United States, of this administration within the last two and a half years.
05:52I believe NATO has never been stronger than before.
05:56And the unity has never been stronger, especially between my country, Germany and the United States.
06:02We are the two of us, the biggest donor for Ukraine, with military support from German side, also with humanitarian support and support for refugees.
06:11And therefore, yes, my chancellor underlined that this close cooperation is also the trust building foundation for the resistance against the Russian war of aggression and for the support of Ukraine.
06:26And I think the president underlined that yesterday night here at the opening of this NATO summit.
06:32So you have no concerns that he might not make it to the presidency to re-election and that Trump might be a second term president?
06:41That must be the conversation in the room right now, no?
06:45Well, obviously, liberal democracy are challenged not only from outside, but also from inside.
06:56And in these times, you need strong friends and partners.
07:00And this is what this alliance is for.
07:02And therefore, we increase not only as Germany, but as Europeans, our share within NATO.
07:09Now, my country and many, many others are spending two percent of their GDP for our common security, for our military capabilities.
07:19And also, I made very clear that the European pillar within NATO has to be strengthened because the stronger the European pillar is, the stronger our transatlantic ties, especially in these times.
07:32And I think also here in the United States, it's very clear for many people that the strength of NATO also is the best guarantee for the security of the United States.
07:44So let me ask you, because all of this is happening, NATO's importance and the 75th anniversary comes at a time of a changing, shifting political landscape.
07:54In Europe, you have seen what's been going on in the European elections.
07:59You've seen the rise of the far right in France, the rise of the far right in Germany.
08:05The AFD came second in the MEP elections.
08:09And you see the potential of, you know, a Trump administration.
08:14All of these people and parties tend to question the commitment to NATO and to Ukraine.
08:22Are you concerned that in the foreseeable future, NATO's core mission might be upended by the rising right politics?
08:40Obviously, we cannot ignore the rise of extreme right wing parties and also the danger because they are challenging liberal democracies from inside
08:51and are doing part of the job Russia is trying to do from outside.
08:56But we shouldn't ignore as well the strengths of democratic parties and especially democratic cooperation within societies.
09:04We have seen at the last weekends in France that the extreme right didn't succeed in ruling our closest friend and partner in Europe, France.
09:16We have seen that the cooperation between democratic parties is the best resilience.
09:21And therefore, in these times of insecurity, also for many, many people in our society,
09:27we have to stand up to our responsibility of cooperation, of trust, and also ensuring that we stay united
09:35besides all the differences we might have as democracies, because this is normal.
09:39But stay united in our common goal of defending our democracy and our liberty and security.
09:46So as this democracy is threatened from within in so many of the democratic countries,
09:52a very interesting demographic shows that in Germany, for instance, the share of young people who voted for AFD jumped 11 percent in that young age.
10:05That's a jump since 2019.
10:08Your Green Party also performed, you know, worse than it did before.
10:14And I wonder, you know, you're part of that movement.
10:18How do you hope to inspire young people to defend democracy, to defend the principles of NATO?
10:25And do you ever think yourself of running for chancellor of Germany?
10:33Maybe going to the first point, NATO and also our European Union is the strongest insurance for peace order.
10:42But this didn't fall from the sky.
10:44And we have to explain again and again, especially to younger people who haven't seen the horror of the Second World War,
10:51what this Europe is all about and also counter fake news on social media.
10:56And we have to do a better job in this altogether as democratic parties.
11:01And coming to your second part of the question, obviously, the world is a total different one than at the last German national elections.
11:10In the light of Russia's war for peace, what do you hope to do in the second part of the question?
11:17Obviously, the world is a total different one than at the last German national elections.
11:23In the light of Russia's war for aggression and now also with regard to the dramatic situation in the Middle East,
11:31it needs more diplomacy and not less, because otherwise others will fill this gap.
11:37And therefore, in these times of crisis, I believe that political responsibility means, as a foreign minister,
11:45not being tied up in the candidacy for German chancellorship.
11:50Instead, continue to use all my energy as foreign minister to my role of building trust and building cooperation,
12:00building reliable structures, because so many partners around the world and in Europe count on that.
12:06Having said that, obviously, in election times, I will do everything to support my own party like I did in the past.
12:14I understand. I think you're saying yes, but not right now. I think that's what you're saying.
12:20What about then diplomacy? Because the head of the European...
12:24Every time, every time has its task.
12:28OK. In terms of diplomacy, the head of the rotating European Council presidency right now is Hungary.
12:36And the prime minister of Hungary does preside over a far-right government or very conservative government.
12:43And he has decided to go to Ukraine, to go to Moscow and break the sort of diplomatic isolation,
12:50go to China and try to figure out a peace process. Is that something that has your support?
13:02Well, sometimes you wonder about the ego, especially of some men, because every country in the European Union knows
13:10that especially in the field of foreign politics and security,
13:13the responsibility doesn't lie with the presidency, which only lasts six months,
13:19but with a high representative of the European Union, also with the commissioner-president for foreign politics.
13:27And therefore, obviously, he was speaking on his own behalf.
13:31And what he said, I mean, in Ukraine, stop defending yourself,
13:37telling this to the victim, telling this to the victim of an aggression,
13:41which is in total breach, not only of the European Union peace order, but of the Charter,
13:45and not telling in China, stop supporting this war of aggression.
13:50As you're a member of the Security Council, obviously it makes very clear that this is not the foreign policy of the European Union.
13:58And the Secretary of State of the United States at your summit has said that finally the F-16s will start flying in Ukraine
14:07and defending Ukrainian airspace by this summer. What more can you tell me about that?
14:16Our strength in NATO is not only what this alliance was founded for, one for all and all for one,
14:24but also that you cooperate in the difficult moment in the most efficient way.
14:29And this is why allies are contributing now.
14:32And we have been working on this within the last two years intensively on all the expertise they do have.
14:39We in Germany, for example, are very strong on air defence.
14:43This is why we are delivering systems like Patriot, the IST and many, many others.
14:48Others supporting with the F-16s you are just mentioning.
14:51And in combination, all of this just has one goal, to defend the sovereignty, the liberty of Ukraine,
15:00helping the Ukrainian army to free the country and also by that defending our European way of life in peace and in liberty.
15:10Now, overshadowing to an extent your summit is the ongoing raging war in the Middle East, and it looks like it's expanding.
15:18Let's first start with Gaza and the humanitarian crisis.
15:22You've announced billions or rather millions of euros in more aid.
15:27After nine months of war, the UN is now declaring a famine does exist in Gaza.
15:34And we don't know, but there's constant talk about a ceasefire or release of hostages, something which hasn't yet materialised.
15:43What do you think is going to be the next steps?
15:45And do you think Germany, with all its historical baggage, is holding all sides of that conflict to account?
15:58This is what we have working on the last nine months.
16:02I've been there many, many times, also like my dear friend and colleague, Tony Blinken,
16:09to underline that Israel can only live in peace if Palestinians are living in peace
16:14and Palestinians can only live in peace if Israelis can live in peace.
16:18And this is what we are working on constantly also with Arab partners.
16:23And therefore, the Biden plan is the only way to come out of this total disaster.
16:29I was recently there, gave a speech at the security conference at Herzliya and made clear that if you look at the suffering of the people
16:39and one mother of a hostage told me that it doesn't bring back my own child, my own son.
16:46If another mother loses now in Gaza, their child.
16:51And this is what we have to do to end the suffering for both sides,
16:56to see the humanity making clear that the terrorist attacks from Hamas have to stop,
17:02that the hostages have to be freed, that humanitarian aid has to come in,
17:07that we come to a ceasefire and that we do not lose the sight of a lasting peace plan, meaning a two-state solution.
17:15I know that it's really hard and you can sometimes really lose the trust in the future.
17:22But I think there's no alternative on that than building a future altogether, because otherwise aggression will rule this world.
17:31You've also criticised the increasing settler violence, Israeli settler violence in the West Bank,
17:36and saying parts of the Israeli government coalition are stirring up trouble
17:40and endangering long-term Israeli security interests with their aggressive settler policy.
17:46That's quite clear and I think it matches also what the US says.
17:50But what about tensions on the Israel-Lebanon front?
17:55Everybody has said they just don't want a wider war.
17:58Do you think it's going to explode into a wider war?
18:07Because Israel's security is, for my country, raison d'etre.
18:13We are working on so many fields and fronts that there will be not an escalation.
18:19And this means the West Bank, I want intensively, as you have mentioned,
18:23that an escalation in the West Bank, a weakening of the PA, is a total drama.
18:28And therefore the funding of the PA has to go on, because I mean,
18:33if schools are not running anymore in the West Bank because the financial guarantees,
18:39which the Oslo guarantees gave to the Palestinians, are not there anymore,
18:43this won't secure the security of Israel.
18:47And the same goes for the Northern Front you mentioned.
18:50I have been speaking to both sides again and again.
18:53I hear so often, especially from the people, but also from the governments,
18:58we don't want to have another war between Israel and Lebanon,
19:01but we shouldn't slide into another war.
19:05And this is the danger we are currently on, that it's a tit-for-tat,
19:09and therefore again diplomacy and also the efforts of the special envoy Hochstein
19:15from the United States is so important, and therefore we are calling strongly on de-escalation.
19:22And this was also my message to Iran, which obviously plays a role in this whole situation.
19:29Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
19:33Thank you as well, and best greetings to Europe.
19:36So following on from what we just heard, Israel's war in Gaza is another key challenge to NATO,
19:43as fear of an all-out war on the Israel-Lebanon border is also rising.
19:48Two Israeli civilians were killed in a Hezbollah rocket attack on the Golan Heights,
19:52the occupied Golan Heights on Tuesday.
19:54Hezbollah says the attack was a retaliation for the killing of a senior commander.
19:59Now today, Israel says its air force struck another Hezbollah site in central Lebanon's Beqaa Valley.
20:06Ibrahim Moussaoui is a senior member of Hezbollah and an MP in the Lebanese parliament.
20:11I spoke to him just before this most recent escalation about the risks of an all-out war,
20:17the civilians caught in the middle, and also I challenged him on his own past comments, as you'll hear.
20:22He joined me from Beirut.
20:24Dr. Ibrahim Moussaoui, welcome to the program.
20:29You represent Hezbollah in parliament.
20:31You are an MP.
20:33And so I want to ask you, in the context of really heightened tensions and military activity across the border with Israel,
20:41there's a growing concern, obviously, that this war could spread.
20:46How would you characterize the risk of a major war right now between Hezbollah and Israel?
20:54Well, ever since the eruption of the conflict and the hostilities of the Israelis after the 7th of October,
21:03and after the engagement between Hezbollah and the Israeli enemy,
21:07we have sticked to certain rules all of the time that we targeted the military positions of the Israelis,
21:13especially in the occupied areas in Lebanon.
21:16Then there has been an escalation from the Israeli side.
21:19And then we have put a formula that every time the Israeli enemy escalates the situation, we would escalate equally and above.
21:28And this is the things has gone so far.
21:31I believe we are not on the advent of any kind of a comprehensive war and or open war.
21:38The Israelis don't want that.
21:40The Lebanese don't want that.
21:42Even the regional and the international powers do not want that.
21:45Maybe Netanyahu himself wants this kind of comprehensive breakout of the front,
21:53trying to bring the Americans to engage directly into the conflict.
21:58But according to my estimations and our understanding, it's not in anybody's interest to go to an all-out war.
22:07So that's really interesting because the IDF last week killed a senior Hezbollah commander in the south of Lebanon.
22:15You know, and as you said, each time we have something, we respond equal and higher.
22:22And Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, said,
22:25if war is imposed, the resistance will fight without constraints, rules or limits.
22:33What exactly is he saying?
22:36Is he making a threat?
22:38Yes, it is a threat.
22:39Yes, it is a warning.
22:41Yes, it is an indicative to the whole world that if the Israelis are going to impose a war,
22:46and this will put the equation in its proper place.
22:50We are reacting to a hostility.
22:53We are responding to an action and we are retaliating to an attack or to a kind of a sensation or targeting our peoples and our area.
23:04That's why from the very beginning, we are making the price very high on the Israeli enemy not to go into any kind of risk of this kind.
23:14Now, some Western estimates, and you've probably seen the press accounts,
23:18say that Hezbollah has about 150,000 rockets and missiles, quite sophisticated,
23:24and that they might even overwhelm the equally sophisticated Israeli Iron Dome defense in a first round.
23:33Do you think that's true?
23:35I can assure you that we have enough arsenal, we have enough ammunition, we have enough rockets, missiles,
23:41whatever it takes in order to respond in a very effective way against any Israeli aggression,
23:46against any Israeli major hostility against our people, against our land.
23:52This is something that Hezbollah has done a long time ago.
23:57This is something that I want to draw the attention because of the failure of the international community
24:02to address the Palestinian crisis in a good way because of this unleashed power of the Israelis to destroy,
24:10to kill children, to kill women, to destroy this major magnitude of destruction in Gaza.
24:16This is an indication of the failure of the international community, of the Security Council, of the United Nations,
24:23to find just solutions to the problems that are there.
24:27So that's why we have accumulated enough expertise and enough missiles and rockets and ammunition
24:34to make retaliation and to make any kind of adventure from the Israeli side a very costly one.
24:42So as you know, and you alluded to this, Lebanon just doesn't want another war.
24:48The prime minister doesn't want it.
24:51The Lebanese people don't want it.
24:52So many people are urging you, Hezbollah, not to pursue a war.
24:57And I remember covering the 2006 war and Israel attacked, you know, in response, et cetera, right inside to Beirut.
25:06And it was devastation and it took a long, long time to rebuild.
25:10And 80 percent of Lebanese are living in poverty right now.
25:14Why would Hezbollah invite more damage to your own country, to your own people?
25:20And you're a political party as well.
25:22What's in it for you?
25:24You have to see the two perspectives.
25:26It's not only one way, one front.
25:28We are responding to an attack.
25:30I have to remind you and those who are following up that still parts of our land is occupied.
25:37Many places, many ambitions of the Israelis against our oil, against our water, against our soil.
25:44They never responded and they never made the international resolutions materialize.
25:52They never put it in practice, the 425, which was like the resolution by the international community, by the United Nations.
25:59It was not put into effect, but because of the resistance and again, this the any kind of resolutions is not being respected or is not being applied by the Israelis.
26:10That's why we need to defend ourselves.
26:12We are not inviting a war with our deterrence force.
26:15We are filling a gap and we are telling the Israelis in a very strong way that this is going to cost you so much.
26:23And this is a deterrent for an all out war rather than inviting it.
26:27Nobody wants to see a war.
26:29We all hate the war.
26:30We know that war would invite havoc and destruction and many people would be killed.
26:35But at the same time, you see, I see, everybody sees what they are doing in Gaza.
26:40This is a kind of a genocide.
26:41This is a kind of apartheid.
26:43This is a kind of destruction that was unparalleled, unprecedented in the history.
26:49Gaza is enough of a witness for what kind of brutality, hostility and genocidal war the Israelis are waging.
26:57So, you know, you use the word genocide.
26:59Obviously, Israel disagrees with that, although many in the Arab world do use that word.
27:05But Israel rejects that.
27:07According to law, the criminal law, they are they are exercising genocide against the Palestinian people.
27:12The South Africans have brought a case alleging that nothing has been adjudicated.
27:17The ICC has brought a case accusing them of crimes against humanity and war crimes, not genocide.
27:24But in but let's just move away from that term, because I need to ask you on October the 8th.
27:30This is not genocide.
27:31What is genocide then?
27:33I'm not having a semantic argument right now with you, Mr.
27:37Moussaoui. What I want to ask you is this.
27:38Some of your. I understand.
27:40I respect that. All right.
27:41I appreciate it.
27:42But I want to ask you about some of the stuff you've said.
27:45So about nine months ago, October 7th happened.
27:49Even Yahya Sinwar allegedly, according to leaked intercepts by the Wall Street Journal, said he didn't expect that amount of civilian killing inside by the by the various groups inside Israel.
28:06But on October 8th, you said Palestine had never witnessed glorious victories like the one we are witnessing today.
28:14And you have apparently posted some inflammatory things, including an anti-Semitic image of an Israeli baby drinking the blood of Palestinians.
28:23And again, back in 2002, it was reported that you said Jews were a lesion on the forehead of history.
28:31So you talk about humanity.
28:34Do you stand by those words or do you accept that the humanity of those Israeli civilians was also attacked?
28:45Well, let me put it this way.
28:47This is a deconstructualization.
28:49I didn't say that.
28:50I didn't say Jews is the legion of the history.
28:52And I defended myself many times.
28:54And I take your platform, your CNN, to say I've never said that.
28:58I said what the Israeli occupation is doing is a stain in the forehead of humanity.
29:03This is what I said.
29:04I didn't say anything about Jews.
29:06I have many Jewish friends.
29:08I invited Jewish rabbis to Lebanon in 2005 and 2004, and I have friends who were in Manchester in Britain.
29:17I invited them here.
29:18I have nothing against the Jews.
29:19We have nothing against the Jews.
29:21There are many Jews who are not who are anti-Zionists and they are not supporting Israel.
29:27So I make a very clear discrimination and differentiation.
29:31This is one thing.
29:32I never said that they drank the blood of the children or whatever.
29:37This is, again, something that has been put in my mouth.
29:40What I say, I say clearly in a very responsible way and publicly.
29:45I never take my words that I said.
29:47And if I made any wrong, I'll say I made a mistake.
29:50But both allegations are complete allegations and fabrications that I didn't say.
29:55What about on October 8th when you said Palestine had never witnessed glorious victories like
30:00the one we're witnessing today?
30:02Absolutely.
30:03Yes.
30:04Of course.
30:05This is something that I said, but you talked something else about blood, babies, whatever.
30:10No, no.
30:11These were three things I put to you.
30:13Yes.
30:14OK.
30:15Now, as for the 7th of October, yes, the kind of humiliation that has been put to the Israeli
30:21military, to the Israeli might, to those who couldn't find anyone in the international
30:27community to stop them, yes, it was a victory for the Palestinians.
30:31Anyway, things are by their results.
30:33Everything is good if it ends good.
30:35We don't like wars.
30:36We hate wars.
30:37We don't want to see destruction and killing, but we want to see justice taking its place.
30:42What happened was a kind of restoration to the justice by bringing the Palestinian cause
30:47back to the lights in the eyes of the international community.
30:51What would you call this kind of awakeness of the elite and the students and the academics
30:58in Britain, in France, in the United States itself, when they saw, after this long time
31:05of brainwashing, they were able to see, they want to see Palestine free, and they are supporting
31:11the freedom of Palestine?
31:12I believe what happened then, because Israel depends solely on its military machine, this
31:18killing machine, yes, it was a victory to the Palestinian cause, and we have to wait
31:22and see the results that will come and the results that will unfold in the future before
31:28we make Russian conclusions.
31:29I would like to ask you just to tell me whether you are able to distinguish between civilians,
31:35women and children and kids, who were massacred, and whatever military force that you're talking
31:40about.
31:41Can you make that distinction?
31:43Because without that, there is no peace.
31:47There's no room for anything.
31:49We have never targeted civilians.
31:52And you know that the Israelis are well known for their litany of massacres against the
31:57people.
31:58I can mention scores of massacres in Lebanon, I remind you about Sabra and Shatira, I remind
32:02you about Qana, I remind you about Mansouri.
32:05I can tell you scores of massacres that the Israelis have done, and now you know they
32:11support it.
32:12And it's there, they are publicly saying that they want to get rid of all of the Palestinians,
32:17they are the goyim according to them.
32:19For us, we have targeted and we continue to target the military might of the Israelis
32:24and the military personnel.
32:26We only respond when they target our civilians.
32:29Okay, so let me just, I need to absolutely say, because there is an image of this, it's
32:36called a blood libel when you're talking about these kinds of issues, that you posted a cartoon
32:41which you deny having posted, but you did and it's still up there, an Israeli baby drinking
32:47the blood of Palestinians.
32:48Can I move on please?
32:52It is well known that you are part of the so-called axis of resistance that is backed
32:58by Iran since, as you mentioned, 1982, the invasion of Lebanon, Sabra and Shatira, etc.
33:07You, or rather your leader Nasrallah, has had a conversation with the new Iranian president.
33:14What is, you know, is Hezbollah a Lebanese national group or, as it's accused of, is
33:23it an Iranian branch?
33:26Well I can tell you with all pride, with all dignity, with all honor that we are proud
33:32to be Lebanese, we are Lebanese, we continue to be Lebanese, we are not Iranians, we don't
33:36work for Iran, we're not proxies of Iran, we are an axis of resistance against an occupation
33:41that has targeted us all as Arabs, as Muslims, as Christians, because the Israelis in Gaza,
33:47they targeted the churches as much as they targeted the hospitals and the mosques and
33:52the educational centers and the schools and, and, and.
33:56Now, when Israel takes the support of France, Britain, Germany, the United States of America
34:04who come from thousands of miles to support this occupation that has been imposed in our
34:11region, I believe the people of the region, with all pride and honor, we have the right
34:16to be one front and to stand up to these kind of challenges, hostilities, aggressions, occupation,
34:22colonialism.
34:23This is a direct colonial power that has been installed here in our region and we have the
34:27right as a resistance, as people who have the same threat, the same enemy, the same
34:32occupation to fight as one.
34:35We are independent and I can tell you that Hezbollah is more independent than many governments
34:40and states per se in the region because they are proxies of the Americans and they are
34:46being dictated by the Americans to do this or not to do that, while we as a national
34:52group, Lebanese group, proud to be Lebanese, we support a moral issue of Palestine, of
34:57Gaza, and we try to do our best, our duty, our moral, religious, human duty to support
35:03them.
35:04I just want to ask you a final question about a military issue.
35:08So back in the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel, afterwards, Hassan Nasrallah said
35:14that he wouldn't have conducted the operation that launched the war if he had known the
35:18damage that would result, and we know how much damage resulted.
35:22He told the New York Times that.
35:24Now I want to know, because you mentioned it, U.N. resolutions, et cetera, the United
35:29States wants you to move your forces farther back from the border, as required by the U.N.
35:35Security Council resolution that was passed after the 2006 war.
35:42Is there any possibility that you will move your forces back, that Israel will move its
35:47forces back, and like that, you can eliminate this conflict on this border?
35:56I can tell you that if an all-out war erupts this time, the Israelis, and of course we
36:02don't want to start this, if the Israelis started it, they are the ones who would say
36:06that had we known this kind of destruction would happen, we wouldn't have started it.
36:12This is one thing.
36:13The other thing, this is a situation of wait and see.
36:16We don't know what kind of situation will prevail when we reach there.
36:20That's why we follow this kind of constructive ambiguity, and we don't say anything about
36:26it.
36:27We wait and see, and then we will take the right decision at the right time.
36:31Mr. Boussaoui, thank you very much indeed.
36:34Pleasure.
36:37Next to the United States, where IVF delivers over 90,000 American babies every year, and
36:43is driving a wedge not only between parties, but also within the GOP itself.
36:49In her recent piece, Sacha Nauta, The Economist's social affairs editor, highlights how Republicans,
36:55who've opposed abortion rights, are struggling to back the moral argument to ban IVF, and
37:01the journalist joins Hari Sreenivasan now to discuss its potential impact on the upcoming
37:06election.
37:07Christiane, thanks.
37:08Sacha Nauta of The Economist, thanks so much for joining us.
37:11You wrote a piece recently that said, will IVF really be the next frontier in America's
37:18culture wars?
37:20Tell us, how did we get here?
37:23Why is it a culture war?
37:25I mean, who's responsible for what?
37:26Almost 90,000 babies being born every year.
37:29Yeah, Hari.
37:30I mean, this question was partly raised because it's a line that you will often hear from
37:34Democrats, saying Republicans first came for abortion, then they came for IVF, and
37:42next they'll come for birth control.
37:44And so we felt it was time to dig into this a bit more.
37:47Is there any truth to this statement?
37:49And in short, there is.
37:53Not because, as you say, 90,000 kids a year are born thanks to this technology.
37:59It is widely supported by, I think nearly nine in 10 Americans are in favor of IVF.
38:05So it's a hugely unpopular thing for Republicans to go after.
38:10But the reason why it is on the table and it could become America's next culture war is
38:18because it is a logical, being uncomfortable with IVF is a logical extension from being
38:28uncomfortable with abortion, particularly the sort of most ardent parts of the pro-life
38:35movement have always believed in this concept that basically from the moment of
38:40conception, a fetus has the same rights as you and I.
38:45And we saw this play out in Alabama earlier this year when the Supreme Court there made a
38:50ruling that in effect overnight suddenly led to a panic where IVF clinics stopped
38:57providing IVF.
38:59And so, yes, we think there is something to this statement.
39:02We don't think it's about to happen tomorrow, but it certainly could be on the table.
39:06Yes. Let's flesh out the kind of the moral argument against it here.
39:10If you consider life beginning at conception, why is IVF, the process of bringing life out
39:19into the world, going to be problematic?
39:22So the basic biology here is that for IVF, what happens is you take you tend to fertilize,
39:30you tend to fertilize a number of eggs.
39:33So a woman takes medication to stimulate the production of eggs.
39:38Hopefully you'll have like 10 or a dozen eggs.
39:41You'll fertilize them with sperm and you'll hopefully produce a number of embryos, more
39:47than you would place to try to have a child.
39:51And again, if you're lucky as a woman, say the first embryo takes and you've got nine
39:55left in the lab, you may not, you know, you may not want 10 children in total.
40:04So there's excess embryos, again, for those who are lucky enough to make enough.
40:08But there's also embryos that perhaps won't pass so-called pregenetic screening.
40:13There might be problems with the embryos.
40:15And so the basic process very much tends to involve the destruction or disposal of
40:22excess embryos.
40:24And that's the core problem.
40:25And you're right, a lot of Republicans who came out in favor of IVF sort of said, well,
40:30there's nothing more pro-life, you know, than helping families create life.
40:33Right. But there is there is a real tension here with the with the core pro-life argument
40:38that life starts at conception.
40:40With the notion of fetal personhood, we've seen a number of states implement laws
40:45codifying this.
40:47What happened in Alabama?
40:50What happened in Alabama was that a number of couples who were going through IVF were
40:55very, very unlucky in that their frozen embryos were destroyed by accident and they sued.
41:04And in suing, their case made it all the way to the Alabama Supreme Court, which made an
41:11unusual ruling, but actually a ruling which is consistent with what we've been talking
41:14about. They said.
41:16This can be a wrongful death suit because actually these frozen embryos, they count as
41:22children under Alabama state law.
41:25And the consequence of that is that IVF clinics went, whoa, OK, hang on, that could make
41:30us criminally liable for wrongful death, not just in this accidental destruction, but for
41:38everybody's IVF procedure.
41:41So when the fertility clinics in Alabama decided that this liability was too much and that
41:47they needed to close, what was the state's response?
41:50The state obviously got a lot of phone calls from out-of-state Republicans and general
41:56supporters of IVF, and they rushed to get through a stopgap law, essentially a shield law
42:05that was put in place, I think about three weeks or so after.
42:10So there was this pause in treatment.
42:11Then the state legislature rushed through the shield law, which essentially gives immunity to
42:19both patients as well as clinics.
42:21So it sort of shields the IVF sector, if you will, as well as those using it from the
42:27consequences of the personhood of the idea that fetuses have rights.
42:32But they didn't deal with the underlying issue.
42:34And that's a real that's that thread is going to come back.
42:37I think we will hear about Alabama again.
42:40So what happened in Alabama?
42:42I mean, this might be instructive to our audience is that they didn't necessarily reverse the
42:46idea of fetal personhood.
42:48You're saying they just created the shield, taking the liability out of the hands or off the
42:53shoulders of the IVF clinics and the people who are using them, right?
42:58That's right. And what's happening now is that two of the couples who were involved in the
43:04initial suit are actually saying that the shield law is unconstitutional.
43:09And so they'd like the shield law actually to they say, you know, it's unconstitutional and
43:14should be gotten rid of.
43:16So, again, that shield law is going to be challenged.
43:18So this is why I think it might come back, because as you've pointed out, the underlying
43:24basic principle that a embryo has the same rights as a child has not been dealt with.
43:32When it comes to the Republicans that are staunchly pro-life, you know, are they a bit
43:40into a corner here?
43:42On the one hand, they do agree with the idea of fetal personhood, but on the other hand, I'm
43:48sure they have constituents who are dyed in the wool Republican who want to have a baby and
43:54want to use this technology.
43:56Yes, they are backed in a corner.
43:58And we saw, you know, back in February, we saw them struggling with this, saying, I am
44:06pro-life, I'm also pro-IVF, this should be possible.
44:10We know, actually Gallup did some good polling on this, we know that over 8 in 10 Americans
44:16think IVF is morally acceptable, but only about half of Americans think it is morally
44:23acceptable to destroy these excess embryos.
44:27So that's an inconsistent view, right?
44:29You can't really have both.
44:31And yet so far, people have been able to hold both views.
44:33But as this issue becomes more and more political, and, you know, as both parties push
44:39each other on being clearer on what their consistent position is, the harder it becomes
44:46for Republicans to try to continue to hold both views.
44:49Now, this is an election year.
44:51Former President Donald Trump has said, look, this should basically be a states right
44:55issue, sort of, just like he has with abortion.
44:59But what happens to the National Republican Party, the party platform, the planks, if
45:05you will, when it comes to the convention?
45:08Does this create enough of a rift in the pro-life community saying, you know what, this
45:14is inconsistent with this?
45:16I mean, the pro-life community has actually been quite vocal about their problems with
45:22IVF. We saw the Southern Baptist Convention last month.
45:28Overwhelmingly adopt a resolution in which they opposed IVF as currently practiced and
45:37called it dehumanizing the U.S.
45:40Conference of Bishops, similar to Heritage Foundation.
45:43So there's a lot of pressure from the pro-life side on Republicans to have a more
45:53morally consistent position on this.
45:55I don't think IVF will be enough to break this coalition, but I think this underlying
46:01issue of personhood will come back again and again.
46:04And in fact, you mentioned the party platform.
46:08As we get ready for the Republican convention, the party platform have adopted the new
46:16language on abortion, which I know has been presented in the press as sort of a
46:21softening of Donald Trump's position on abortion.
46:26And the reality is it's very hazy language.
46:31I've talked to several legal scholars, all of whom say, you know, they're trying to
46:35shoehorn all sorts, they're trying to square this circle that we've been talking
46:40about. Over time, I find it very hard to see how the Republican Party can continue to
46:50stay in sync with the direction that the pro-life movement is going.
46:55As we have this conversation about IVF laws, there do seem to be parallels in how
47:00different state legislatures are dealing with access to abortion.
47:05If it is left to be a state's right issue, are there parallels here between how IVF as
47:13a technology will be treated, how abortions, how access to contraception will be treated
47:18as well?
47:19There are definitely parallels.
47:21And those who work in the IVF field, right from the moment that Roe versus Wade was
47:27overturned two years ago now said, you know, lobbying abortion back to the states also
47:35will put IVF on the table.
47:37So by removing the protections of Roe, it has been left up to every state to start
47:44dealing with these questions of where does life begin?
47:47What does that mean for the medical practices in our state?
47:50So there is a direct connection with abortion.
47:55I think the big parallel that you hear IVF providers talk about a lot is that they worry
48:04that in conservative states or states that are anti-abortion, pro-life, you will start
48:14to see, you won't see many ban-bans, but you'll see an eroding of access.
48:22And we saw that during the protections of Roe.
48:24You'll remember, you know, in theory, abortion was legal everywhere in America.
48:30But in practice, there were many states where it became harder and harder for women to access
48:36abortion.
48:37All sorts of extra regulations were put in place that made it harder and harder to access.
48:42And the big fear is that you'll see a similar chipping away of access to IVF, perhaps even
48:50to contraception in some of these similar states.
48:54And yeah, that is the big fear.
48:56So whether that's by regulation, by being stricter about how embryos can be treated,
49:01perhaps, how many embryos you might be allowed to create for IVF, whether you can freeze
49:07them, whether you can destroy them, whether you can genetically test them.
49:13But there's also, you know, there's also the kind of knock-on consequences of the chilling
49:19environment that's been created due to abortion bans.
49:24So we've heard from states with strict abortion bans that they are struggling more and more
49:28with getting OBGYNs.
49:30Again, you can see a knock-on for fertility doctors.
49:34So it's not that hard to see how in some of these states, even if, as we expect, IVF
49:41will broadly remain legal or become harder and harder to access in a country where, by
49:45the way, it is already very expensive to access IVF.
49:49Heading into this election cycle, is this going to be enough of an issue where, I mean,
49:55we have seen Democrats definitely mobilize around abortion access and reproductive rights,
50:02right?
50:03And I wonder, I mean, you spent some time in Arizona for this story.
50:08What were you seeing on the ground when it comes to mobilizing on either side?
50:12Yeah, I mean, I think reproductive rights, the basic idea that the state is getting in
50:20the way of women and families is, you know, reproductive choices is clearly not sitting
50:30well with the majority of Americans.
50:31Polling shows that for all the issues we've just talked about, right, for abortion, for
50:38IVF and for contraception.
50:42What I saw in, and sorry, to your question on the election, I think net it's quite clear
50:47who this helps.
50:48It helps Democrats.
50:49The Republican position on these issues is not in line with the majority of Americans.
50:57What I saw in Arizona, in fact, the Arizonans, I think it was a few days ago, handed in these
51:05signatures for their ballot initiative, and they've managed to collect, I believe, over
51:10800,000 signatures, most in the state's history, for this petition to protect abortion.
51:19And they are one of many states that have done this.
51:22So in November, we will see a number of states, including Florida, including Nevada.
51:28And if these signatures are, if enough of them are verified in Arizona, you know, important
51:36swing states, not just voting on a president, but also voting on their state's constitution
51:43and whether it should have a protection to abortion.
51:45So that really matters.
51:47That really, really matters.
51:48And what was inspiring to see in Arizona is just how broad a coalition these grassroots
51:57movements are finding to get, because basically they have to collect signatures from ordinary
52:01Arizonans.
52:02And I saw a range of people sign.
52:04This is not just your classic reproductive rights people signing them.
52:10It's libertarians.
52:11It's, you know, Trump voters who are very angry about the state getting into these kind
52:17of issues.
52:18So it definitely resonates.
52:19It will net help Democrats.
52:22I guess the big question is, will it help them enough?
52:26Do you think that the choice of candidate will matter in how this plays out?
52:30I mean, the current uncertainty around President Biden and whether he's going to be the party's
52:35nominee or not, with the advocates that you spoke to, either on the pro-life side or the
52:41IVF side, do they have any thoughts on that?
52:45I think that the choice of candidate is a totally fair question.
52:49I think the advocates are not wild about Joe Biden on this issue.
52:56He's, you know, he's not comfortable with the word abortion.
53:00They all track whether he said it.
53:05They much prefer a Kamala Harris on this issue.
53:08He's more comfortable talking about the subject.
53:11It's a double-edged sword, though, because I would say that it's not the activists that
53:17the Dems need to worry about.
53:20It's probably more the people in the middle who are in favor of some access to abortion,
53:27who would not, you know, call themselves sort of part of the abortion positivity movement,
53:33which is more on the on the activist side.
53:35So it's a double-edged sword for Dems in terms of who they go for.
53:38There's no way they're going to go for anybody.
53:40If Joe Biden isn't the candidate, I find it impossible to imagine the basic credential
53:47is you're going to have to be pro-choice.
53:51But within that, there's a real balancing act.
53:54Do you go for a candidate who the activist wing is really comfortable with, who's happy
54:00to talk about abortion as being a non-stigmatized issue, something that everybody should be
54:07able to approach and not really talk about term limits, or do you go for someone who
54:11actually, strangely, Joe Biden actually is not that, I personally believe he's not that
54:16bad a candidate because in his discomfort, and he's had an evolution, right, in terms
54:21of where he stands on the issue, he's probably actually voicing the discomfort of quite a
54:26lot of sort of middle America.
54:29Satya, now to the social affairs editor of The Economist.
54:32Thanks so much for joining us.
54:35A strong reminder, indeed, of all the important issues at stake in this year's U.S. election
54:39and the weight it carries in the fight to uphold reproductive rights, women's rights.
54:44And finally, a future addition to the Soccer Hall of Fame.
54:49Spanish prodigy Lamine Yamal has become the youngest ever goal scorer in the men's
54:55European Championship at just 16 years old.
54:58Who could have missed his daring strike last night that landed Spain a spot in its first
55:03final since 2012, earning Yamal comparisons to the greatest, including Lionel Messi.
55:10Coincidentally, their paths have already crossed.
55:13Viral images on social media show baby Yamal alongside Messi in a charity calendar back
55:20in 2007.
55:22Whether it's destiny or not, the teen star will be a force to be reckoned with in Sunday's
55:27final.
55:28And that is it for our program tonight.
55:30If you want to find out what's coming up every night, sign up for our newsletter at
55:34PBS.org slash Amanpour.
55:36Thanks for watching and join us again tomorrow night.