The New South Wales government has directed public servants to return to the office marking a change from Covid-19 flexible working arrangements. While the move has been praised by business groups unions say it’s not the end of working from home.
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00:00They are out of step, though, with other state governments,
00:04other organisations in other industries.
00:06And so it will be interesting to see how this actually plays out.
00:09We've seen in other industries and other countries
00:12where a return-to-the-office mandate has been put in place
00:15that it hasn't worked well and it's caused turnover
00:18and it's caused increased staff dissatisfaction.
00:21We should be clear on this with this New South Wales government advice.
00:25It's not, like, you must work five days from work.
00:27It's the directive is principally...
00:30..you have to work principally from the office.
00:34Mm. So it's not really clear,
00:35and I think they talk principally, you know,
00:38quite a number of times in that release.
00:40And what we know from the research is that the model of three-two,
00:43so around three days in the office, two days at home,
00:46is the ideal for most people.
00:48That sort of covers off a range of outcomes
00:51that employers are hoping to achieve
00:53and individuals actually appreciate in terms of not coming in.
00:56And that flexibility, that model,
00:59has been shown to produce a 3% to 5% productivity increase.
01:03So that research is there. It's very clear.
01:05And so I think there is a lot of ambiguity at the moment
01:08in terms of, well, principally, what does that mean?
01:10How many days exactly in the office?
01:12Yeah, well, technically, I guess, principally, it could be three-two.
01:16It could be, and that's, you know, I think it would be great
01:18if they came out with greater clarity around this,
01:21because I think then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
01:24Look, most people don't want to work from home five days a week,
01:27and those that do elect to do that in jobs that support that,
01:31the research shows that they tend to do that effectively.
01:33So I think we need a little bit more clarity here.
01:36OK, so you've touched on this a couple of times,
01:38but I'd like you to go into more detail on this now,
01:41because this is vigorously debated around the countries.
01:46What is the actual evidence that you refer to there
01:51on what happens with productivity and working from home?
01:55There have been a number of studies, obviously, in fact,
01:57hundreds that have been done around the world now since the pandemic.
02:01And on the whole, what the studies show is this three-two model
02:04supports a productivity increase of around 3% to 5%.
02:08But there are also studies that have been done previous to COVID
02:12that showed that working from home
02:14had a dramatic effect on productivity, far more than that 5%.
02:19So what we need to be really conscious of
02:21when we're looking at these types of policies is what's the industry,
02:24what's the type of work that's being done, and who are the workforce?
02:28Because we know that flexible work policies
02:30increase participation in the workforce
02:32for a number of people who wouldn't otherwise be able to participate.
02:36It reduces the cost of housing employees for employers in the city
02:41and a whole range of other benefits as well.
02:43So I think we need to be really conscious of that
02:46rather than just a one-size-fits-all mandate.
02:49Some people might be a bit sceptical.
02:51You mentioned kind of studies have shown a 3% to 5% increase.
02:54Can you go into any more detail on that
02:56and give us some specific examples?
03:00What people find when they work at least some of the time from home,
03:04and we've seen this, you know, across a number of...
03:07..you know, hundreds of studies now,
03:08is that they can focus and concentrate better.
03:10A lot of employees now are working in open plan offices,
03:13which have also conclusively shown have a very deleterious effect
03:18on productivity, on the ability to concentrate,
03:21and in fact can lead to less collaboration,
03:23which was not their intention in the first place.
03:25So you've got people who are commuting less,
03:28you know, there's less interruption, less distraction
03:30and a greater ability to focus.
03:32And for a lot of knowledge workers now,
03:34that is the key part of your job.
03:36And my own research has shown
03:37that when people can't focus and concentrate
03:40just to get their job done,
03:41then there are a whole range of negative outcomes
03:44for both that individual and for the organisation.
03:47And is it your observation
03:50that a move by New South Wales like this,
03:53if it's more than 3-2 and it's not exactly clear,
03:56it might actually open an opportunity for other states to step in
04:00and try to take that workforce from New South Wales?
04:04Well, I think we've seen Victoria have already come out
04:06and made a comment today about that, haven't they?
04:08And in other industries, we've seen this happen as well.
04:10When Apple put out a return to the office mandate,
04:14Atlassian came out and said,
04:15well, hey, any Apple workers, if you'd like to come and work with us?
04:18So, this has become already a competitive point of difference
04:22for employers in terms of being able to offer location flexibility
04:26or time-based flexibility for their employees.
04:29So, I expect that will continue.
04:31What about the arguments about workplace culture,
04:34encouraging a really good workplace culture with your team
04:38if people aren't actually coming into work,
04:40and the benefits for younger workers
04:43if they're in closer proximity to older workers
04:46that you would not get with working from home?
04:50Yeah, there are clear benefits for being in the office
04:52around team cohesion, networking,
04:54learning opportunities, relationship building.
04:56And as I said, most people don't want to work from home five days a week.
05:00But what we know is that to get those benefits,
05:02we don't need to be in the office five days a week.
05:05So, if you're a younger employee,
05:07I would certainly recommend that you spend more time in the office
05:09for those learning and relationship-building opportunities.
05:13But again, there's a wide variety of people in the workforce,
05:16and coming in some of the week is enough to achieve those outcomes
05:20without it being every single day or four days a week.
05:24OK, and so can you see things changing significantly in this field now
05:29with a push like this on from New South Wales?
05:32Or do you believe that the work-from-home situation
05:36will continue to be a pretty noticeable aspect
05:42of the employment scene in Australia now?
05:46Absolutely, and I think that will continue.
05:49We've already seen different types of mandates like this
05:51around the world over the last couple of years
05:53haven't worked effectively.
05:55There was a large study done in the US
05:57on companies that did mandate a five-day return to the office last year,
06:01and those companies did not perform any better
06:04in terms of their performance and their stock price outcomes.
06:07So, this is a competitive difference for employers.
06:11People want this.
06:12There are many advantages,
06:13both for individuals, organisations and for the environment.
06:17And so I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.
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