Ike Ugbo transfer latest and Marseille reflections ahead of new season
Ike Ugbo transfer latest and Marseille reflections ahead of new season
Transcript
00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sutherland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:29Lads, pleasure to see you.
00:30Pleasure to be on for the first time, to be hosting for the first time.
00:33Very exciting times.
00:35I mean, first and foremost, I've got to ask, how was the trip to Bradford
00:39at the weekend? It looked like a lovely day for a game of football.
00:43It was canny, actually.
00:44It was by far the best game of pre-season,
00:47which I suppose you would expect, given the standard of opposition.
00:52And I think we were both quite pleased by what we saw from a Sunderland perspective.
00:57It was really nice to see that, you know, rather than just kind of like sit off
01:02and use it almost as a defending exercise, some of them were actually really aggressive.
01:06You know, I think it was probably the first time, like over 90 minutes,
01:09that you've actually seen what LeBreeze has kind of talked about in full.
01:13And like, obviously, there's been a lot of noise about
01:15we want to get back to being good to watch and all that.
01:18And it was probably the first time that you've seen that over 90 minutes.
01:21So obviously, there were times when they got picked off and stuff.
01:24But it was canny.
01:24I think after a very, very
01:28unenjoyable trip to Bradford on Tuesday,
01:30it was quite an enjoyable, enjoyable trip the second time around.
01:35Yeah, welcome, Jason.
01:37Good to have you with us.
01:38I thoroughly enjoyed Saturday, actually, as Phil mentioned.
01:41That was the first time, because there's been a lot of talk, hasn't there,
01:43about an attack-minded style and a high press.
01:46And that was the first time where I was watching and I thought, right, OK,
01:49I get it now. I get what LeBreeze is trying to implement.
01:52Obviously, that was more of what we'd expect of the first team
01:55in terms of personnel compared to Bradford City the week previous.
01:59So I came away fairly encouraged.
02:02I think the point that me and Phil maybe made afterwards was that
02:06will Marseille play the same way as Cardiff City on Saturday?
02:10Probably not.
02:10And there might be a few more long balls in the championship
02:12over the course of the season that Sunderland will have to deal with.
02:15But, yeah, I was really encouraged
02:18with the caveat that we probably need a striker still as well,
02:21which is something we've talked about on this podcast for a rather long time now.
02:26Yeah, and I'm sure we're going to talk about it a lot today as well.
02:29I mean, it's kind of understandable, isn't it really, Phil?
02:31Five or six weeks since Reggie LeBree came in,
02:34he's obviously got this much heralded tactical approach
02:37that he's trying to implement at Sunderland.
02:39It was always going to take a little while for him to get going,
02:42perhaps for the players to fully understand what he's asking of them.
02:45And I mean, obviously, he's still got a long way to go with that.
02:47But do you think that the performance on Saturday
02:49was the most promising signs we've seen from Sunderland under LeBree?
02:54Yeah, I think so.
02:55They played pretty well against Forest,
02:58which is obviously like a similar sort of start in XI as well.
03:02But that was a tougher game to watch
03:05because it was knocking on the door at 40 degrees.
03:07And obviously it was a lot earlier in the pre-season programme as well.
03:10So I think Saturday, to be fair, was the one that felt most like an actual football match
03:16rather than a training exercise, which you're used to.
03:19So I think what was nice about the game,
03:22or what was encouraging about the game for me, was that Sunderland created loads of chances.
03:26And, you know, some of that was through nicking the ball off Marseille.
03:30Some of it was just through some nice general sort of build up play of their own.
03:34It wasn't all about Jack Clarke.
03:36Actually, Clarke didn't do a great deal until he hit the post about midway through the second half.
03:40Most of what Sunderland were doing was coming through Patrick Roberts on the right,
03:43which I think was really exciting for everyone because everyone loves Patrick Roberts.
03:48He's everyone's favourite player, and rightly so.
03:51And, you know, last season, I mean, a lot was made of last season.
03:54I think, to be fair, he had injury issues, and we've seen it happen to so many players
03:57where they struggle to find their rhythm coming back.
03:59But that was something that gave me a lot of encouragement going away from it
04:03because whether Clarke's here or not, Sunderland need other players
04:06and other parts of the pitch to be damaging the opposition.
04:09So, yeah, I think there's a lot of positives.
04:13I feel quite reassured that Sunderland are going into the season with a fairly settled team,
04:18which has got a lot of quality in it.
04:20Where does it sit in terms of what's going to happen over the season?
04:23There's obviously still some big question marks.
04:25And, you know, the Clarke thing and the Stripe thing sort of looms large, doesn't it?
04:28And it will do until the window shuts.
04:30But, yeah, I'm a bit reassured.
04:33I feel like things are heading in the right direction.
04:34But you never quite know.
04:36And Cardiff aren't going to play like Marseille.
04:37So that's going to be a very different challenge
04:42and a very different style of game.
04:44So I guess we can't read too much into that one.
04:48Off the back of Saturday.
04:51I mean, you mentioned Paddy Roberts there.
04:53Obviously, a lot of people's man of the match on Saturday.
04:55James, any other real sort of standout performance for you at the weekend?
04:58Anybody really making the case that they have to be in that starting XI
05:01come Saturday lunchtime against Cardiff?
05:04I think he would have been anyway, but I thought Luke O'Neill was outstanding.
05:06Actually, I know Sunderland shipped two goals,
05:08but I thought he made a couple of crucial blocks,
05:10a couple of crucial clearances, read the game really well.
05:13I've been impressed over a large amount of time
05:16about how well Luke O'Neill has actually adapted to that centre-back role
05:19and his reading of the game, I think, has improved tenfold as well.
05:23That's not to say that sometimes he isn't liable
05:26to be a little bit rash or get caught out at times,
05:28because I think he definitely still has that in his locker.
05:31But generally, I think he's improved.
05:34I think him and Alissi going into the championship season
05:37is a good, solid partnership,
05:39although a little bit of a concern that they haven't played together
05:41as much as O'Neill and Ballard.
05:42And I think any team in the championship would miss Dan Ballard.
05:47But in terms of the other players,
05:49Romain Mundel obviously didn't have enough time to really impress
05:53as he did away at Bradford City.
05:54But he's been really good for me so far.
05:57But the problem he's got is that he's playing behind Jack Clarke
06:01and in the pecking order.
06:02So I think it's exciting that he's now an option for 20 minutes off the bench.
06:07But yeah, I think generally, I think that sort of start
06:11and eleven for Cardiff is more or less locked in.
06:13I think the question would be whether Sunderland would
06:16assign a striker before that.
06:19But even if they did, I don't think he would be ready.
06:22So barring any touchwood last-minute injuries in training,
06:26I think the team that started against Marseille
06:28will likely be the team that starts against Cardiff.
06:32One man who was in attendance on Saturday,
06:35obviously didn't feature, wasn't in the squad.
06:37Ian Paveda, Phil.
06:38I mean, do we have any sort of clue as to how close he is
06:41to potentially making that Sunderland debut at this point?
06:45Yeah, not particularly.
06:46Lebris doesn't give a huge amount away on these sort of things.
06:51Kind of guy who is very, very happy to tell you about his formation
06:55and tactical details and stuff and very, very guarded with other things.
06:58But he did say, listen, he said he didn't know when Paveda would be available,
07:02but that they're being very cautious with him.
07:04So I think we can infer that he's not going to play a significant part
07:08at Cardiff this weekend.
07:09Judging by the fact that he's not had any minutes whatsoever,
07:11I'm not even convinced we'll see him on the bench,
07:13although I suppose we might do.
07:15I think it's pretty clear that obviously he has had injury issues in the past
07:19and also he did miss the end of last season.
07:21So it's not just as if he's coming late during pre-season.
07:24He's actually even further behind because, you know,
07:25he wasn't playing towards the end of last season.
07:27So I think that's going to be a bit of a long-term process.
07:31I mean, you would see that Preston game.
07:33Could that ideally be the chance for him to get half an hour off the bench
07:37to start that process?
07:38I imagine that would be the ideal scenario,
07:40but I don't see him playing a significant part this weekend.
07:43I think there's an argument that you'd probably be surprised
07:46if he's in the squad, given that you've got Barr as well,
07:47who has now made a couple of appearances.
07:49So that's definitely going to be a bit of a long-term one.
07:51Maybe the fact that Roberts is playing so well at the moment
07:54allows him to be a little bit more patient.
07:56I think that's a position he's primarily going to play in.
07:59Yeah, and maybe what Roberts is doing at the moment
08:01allows him to take things slowly with Paveda,
08:04but definitely I get the impression that he's going to be sort of
08:07brought into the team pretty steadily.
08:09I don't see him playing a huge amount in these first few weeks of the season.
08:16I mean, let's properly look ahead to Saturday, then, that Cardiff game.
08:20I know you're saying there, James, that you think Sunderland's line-up
08:23is pretty settled, that Reg Labrie sort of knows what he's wanting to do
08:27and the personnel who will fulfil that.
08:29But are there perhaps a couple of positions where he still has slight decisions to make?
08:33You know, if you look at the centre of midfield, perhaps,
08:35when you look at the likes of Chris Rigg knocking on the door.
08:38Obviously, Alan Brown's been playing in pre-season.
08:40Padilla Sheesh has had a pretty decent pre-season as well.
08:43And you look at George Bellingham.
08:45I mean, do you think that those are decisions that Labrie will be considering?
08:49Or do you think that he is pretty much there when it comes to that midfield area?
08:54I think he is pretty much there now.
08:57I do agree with what you're saying, though.
08:58I think Chris Rigg made a really, really strong case earlier in pre-season
09:01to be starting the Cardiff City game.
09:03I mean, we said on the whistle video, which we record afterwards,
09:07that I think Alan Brown's slightly moved ahead of him now.
09:10Not necessarily because Chris Rigg's done anything wrong at all.
09:12I think he's actually been really good.
09:14But it's just Alan Brown's got that experience.
09:17He's got that know-how.
09:18We mentioned before, when Hulme goes forward, he'll drop in to right back.
09:22He's just so experienced.
09:24He's so good on the ball.
09:25He's very athletic, very box-to-box.
09:26Brings a lot of energy.
09:28Complements Dan Neil really well.
09:30So although I don't think Chris Rigg's done a lot wrong
09:32and he can really count himself a bit unlucky,
09:34and I wouldn't be surprised if he feels a bit hard done to.
09:38But he's got the sort of mentality where he'll be absolutely chomping at the bit
09:42to bounce back and to get any opportunity he can.
09:44He's stayed at Sunderland, Chris Rigg, to play games.
09:48So I've no doubt that he will play games this season, absolutely.
09:51And he'll probably feature against Cardiff at some point, I would imagine.
09:54But I think Brown's just slightly moved ahead of him in the mind of Reg Libery.
09:59I think the Joe Bellingham-Adilu-Sheesh one is really interesting.
10:03I, again, until quite recently during pre-season,
10:07I thought Al-Sheesh was perhaps slightly ahead of Joe
10:10from what I'd seen in the performances.
10:12As he reminded us on his Instagram account recently, Adilu-Sheesh,
10:16he's contributed with goals and assists during this pre-season campaign.
10:21But I thought against Marseille, we actually saw a Joe Bellingham
10:24who was getting closer to being back to his best.
10:27And it was a subtle reminder, I think, that actually Joe Bellingham
10:30is a really, really classy football player.
10:33And he possesses such athletic quality, such quality on the ball.
10:37He can pick a pass.
10:39When he breaks the lines, he's good.
10:40He's good at linking the play.
10:42So I thought that was an interesting reminder that he's, you know,
10:46it's easy to forget with Joe Bisnett the play that he is because of the age he is as well.
10:50We sort of take him for granted a little bit.
10:51And he probably did play a little bit too much last season.
10:54But I thought, yeah, he's moved ahead of Adilu-Sheesh again for me,
10:58similar to Brown over Riggs.
11:00So, yeah, as I said, I can't see them being any sort of curveballs from Le Bruy.
11:06I think he's pretty much set a stall out in this last game against Marseille.
11:11But you never know, things can happen.
11:15Absolutely, absolutely.
11:17I mean, if nothing else, Phil, it's nice to be talking about a Sunderland team
11:21that appear, on paper at least, to have some decent options and the ability to rotate players in and out
11:27and maybe create different sorts of headaches for opposition teams.
11:32Yeah, definitely.
11:32I think one of the interesting things about this pre-season, just in season more generally,
11:36is obviously there's not actually been a huge amount of turnover in the team,
11:41certainly not in terms of the start of XI.
11:43It's an interesting sort of question, isn't it?
11:45Like, is that, you know, when the team finished 16th last season,
11:48is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?
11:50And I think you can see it both ways.
11:51Personally, I do kind of see it as a good thing.
11:55This is a team that halfway through last season was pushing for the playoffs.
11:59You know, it was well positioned.
12:00It had some issues, as we know about, particularly up front, which haven't gone away and that's concerning.
12:04But it's a team that we know is capable of competing with any team at this level.
12:10And I think that ultimately one of the big things at this window when we get to the end of it is,
12:13I think we'll be pleased that Sunderland managed to hold on to a lot of these players.
12:16I know there's still a few weeks to go, but I don't envisage there being a fire sale.
12:20And I think that the team's in a decent place.
12:23For me, I think that you know that there's going to be three or four teams competing for the top two,
12:27probably three of them who've come down from the Premier League.
12:29I don't see Sunderland being in that category.
12:32And then you know that there's going to be 10 teams scrapping for two playoff places, basically.
12:36And I think Sunderland are going to be in that category.
12:38I think they're good enough to be in that category.
12:40I think the team is settled enough to be in that category.
12:42I think they've got enough quality.
12:43The question of whether they can be at the top of that pile,
12:46I think depends on that extra little bit of firepower.
12:48And I think if you look back to when they snuck in a six last time around,
12:51that was Ahmad, wasn't it?
12:53You know, and it was to an extent when he was fit, Stuart.
12:55I know everyone says he was injured for so much of that season,
12:57but the point being, the games he played, he scored in every one of them.
13:00So I think that, you know, that for me is the question.
13:03I'm fairly comfortable about this team.
13:05I think it'll be better than what finished last year.
13:07I don't have any huge fears about being stuck at the bottom end of the table.
13:11Is it good enough to get in the top six?
13:12I think there's still a few big question marks there,
13:15and probably the depth is one of those.
13:19I mean, we've already alluded to it a few times,
13:21so we might as well move on and talk about the Stryker situation,
13:25because it does feel as if it's all anybody is talking about at the moment around the club.
13:30Obviously, Elisa Maenda has seemingly got the nod from Reg Labrieze,
13:35started a couple of games in pre-season, looked fairly bright without necessarily scoring.
13:39But, I mean, what have you seen from him in pre-season, James,
13:42to suggest that he might be the one who Labrieze put in the most faith in at this moment in time?
13:49I really like him.
13:50I think he's improved a great deal from the early showings we saw of him at Sunderland.
13:54Obviously, he didn't play too much.
13:56I think he only started one game away at Plymouth, perhaps.
13:59And then he went on that surprising loan to Hibs,
14:01which was a little bit of a surprise,
14:03because he was just starting to get sort of settled in the North East,
14:06and then he went up to Scotland.
14:07Didn't really happen for him up there.
14:08I think he only played twice, and then he was playing with their under-21s.
14:11So, whilst I'm sure he benefited from it in terms of a little bit of experience,
14:16he probably would have been just better served maybe staying at Sunderland,
14:19getting the odd game off the bench and playing for our under-21s.
14:22So, I think the way he's bounced back from that is good.
14:26He possesses some really good attributes.
14:27He's quite fast.
14:29He runs the channels.
14:30He's got a good shot on him.
14:32He did miss a good chance against Blackpool, which was saved.
14:38But Reg LaBrie touched on this, Phil, after Marseille, didn't he?
14:41Is that he likes Miander.
14:43He's clearly a good player.
14:43He's clearly got something.
14:45But he's still young.
14:46He's 19.
14:46He's very raw.
14:47He's inexperienced in life and Championship football.
14:52So, LaBrie's basically said, we can't hang our hat on him for 46 games.
14:57And I think Phil would absolutely agree that whatever Sunderland do this summer
15:03will largely depend on whether they can get a couple of good strikers in
15:06and whether those strikers can hit the ground running and score some goals.
15:09Because whilst we have some really exciting attacking players,
15:12if Jack Clarke can reproduce similar numbers, that's a huge plus.
15:16If he does stay, Patrick Roberts obviously had a little bit of a disappointing season
15:20last campaign in terms of his numbers.
15:22If he can get somewhere back to his best, that's fantastic.
15:24Then there's a little bit of depth on either wing with Mundell and Barr,
15:27but so much will depend on whether we can add 10, 15 goals from that central striker position.
15:33Will Miander be the player to get 15 goals in the Championship at 19, turning 20?
15:38I don't think so, despite being quite impressed with him during pre-season.
15:42I just don't think he's that player yet.
15:45I think it's not like about a 30-goal striker either.
15:50Do you know what I mean?
15:51We are actually talking about getting 15 to 20 from not just one striker either,
15:55like Miander, Rooson and whoever comes in.
15:58I mean, Clarke is a massive one because I think if Clarke stays,
16:01you look across that sort of pitch, you can see Clarke finding 15 goals again.
16:06Absolutely no problem, the form that he's in.
16:08I personally, I think Joe will hit, if he plays regularly,
16:11I think Joe will hit double figures this season.
16:12I genuinely do.
16:14I think Saturday was the first time where you can really understand
16:18why Le Brice has put him in that position,
16:20because when someone do press as high as they did at the weekend,
16:24then he's a nightmare for opposition defenders because of his athleticism,
16:27because of his fitness.
16:31And I think that we saw last year he's got an eye for goal.
16:33And if Sunderland keep with this high press,
16:35I think he'll get in good positions.
16:36Didn't happen on Saturday, but it's pre-season,
16:38so I'm not concerned about that.
16:40So I can see Job chipping in with goals.
16:42So it's not about like a 30-goal.
16:45You know, obviously that would be nice, don't get me wrong,
16:47but it is talking about getting 15 to 20 goals from that group of strikers.
16:52But I do think that it's going to be very difficult for Sunderland
16:54to get into the top six without that.
16:57I don't think they're going to do it if you have the same kind of output
16:59that they had last season.
17:01And obviously the nightmare scenario is Clark goes
17:03and you then don't get in those goals,
17:05because Mundell's been excellent all pre-season now.
17:09Bradford, he was brilliant.
17:10I do think Sunderland have got a player there,
17:11but he's clearly not going to get, well, I shouldn't say that.
17:14You never know.
17:15But I don't think he's going to produce what Clark did last season.
17:18It took Clark a while to get up to that level, didn't it?
17:20And he had way more experience in senior football coming to Sunderland.
17:22So I do think it's absolutely vital.
17:27And the Clark thing is still massive, I think.
17:30I still think that has an absolutely huge say
17:33in what happens in the final weeks of this window.
17:36Because, I mean, listen, if loads of money came in,
17:38that totally changes what Sunderland can do up front.
17:40There may be players who at the moment wouldn't be within their financial means,
17:43who would become so when that money comes in.
17:47That's not me saying I hope Clark goes.
17:48I would much rather he stayed.
17:49But I do think that's kind of the key to everything at the moment.
17:52I think if Clark stays, Sunderland is shopping in one market for a striker.
17:56And I think the profile of the player will be they might have to take more of a risk.
18:00They won't be spending the kind of fees that some of the championship clubs
18:03have spent on Keith Moore, for example.
18:06If Clark goes, then maybe you're looking at some slightly different deals.
18:08So it's going to be a really interesting few weeks.
18:11I've said it for years, shut the transfer window before the season starts.
18:14It gets on my nerves every single year because I just don't think it's right.
18:19I think when the season starts, everyone should have their squad.
18:22January, I can understand, but yeah, that's a tangent.
18:25But we should shut the window a few days before the season starts.
18:28I'll say it every year.
18:29I'll be back next year to make that same point.
18:32That's Phil's rant for the year, doesn't it?
18:33Just on the back of the Clark point, though, it's really interesting,
18:38the timing of that transfer if it did happen.
18:41If it happens on deadline day, you almost feel what's the point
18:44if Sunderland haven't already got their preferred striker target through the door
18:47because then suddenly the prices go up.
18:49You might not get a deal done.
18:50We've seen historically Sunderland not be able to get a striker deal done
18:54on deadline day in Kiefer Moore in January.
18:56So the timing of that will be essential.
18:58If Clark's going to go really late into the window,
19:01does that allow Sunderland enough time to get who they need in it?
19:05It's a balancing act and I don't envy the decision makers, to be honest.
19:10No, I think that's a really, really fair point, James, as well.
19:13The last thing Sunderland want to be left with is, you know,
19:15£20-25 million burning a hole in their pocket at £10.59 on August 30th.
19:21It's going to do them no good, is it, you know?
19:23Obviously, you're talking there, Phil, about Sunderland shopping
19:26in one market at the moment for a striker.
19:28There are names being thrown about.
19:31Perhaps the most recent one that's garnering quite a lot of attention
19:34is that of E.K. Ugo.
19:36Obviously, formerly on loan at Sheffield Wednesday last season,
19:41Sheffield Wednesday are still very much in the hunt to sign him.
19:45I mean, have you got any sort of idea where we stand with that?
19:49Are Sunderland serious contenders for that signature, do you think?
19:53I think serious contenders is fair,
19:55but I think I don't see them as the front runners in that one.
19:58I think it's fairly obvious that Sheffield Wednesday are very,
20:02very keen to have him back.
20:04I think he would be very happy to go back to Sheffield Wednesday
20:06because it's a place where he's obviously settled, knows his teammates,
20:10he's had an impact, has a really good relationship with the head coach.
20:13So my thing sitting here would be that I would expect at a certain point
20:18Sheffield Wednesday to get the deal done.
20:20I don't think they actually have an issue with the fee that Ugo's club wants.
20:24I think it's about the payment structure,
20:26and you have to think that that kind of thing can probably be overcome.
20:31I suspect maybe news of Sunderland's interest has potentially leaked
20:34a little bit to see if Sheffield Wednesday will hurry along and get it done.
20:39We'll see on that one.
20:40What I would say is that I think from the conversations
20:43I've had, Sunderland have registered a fairly serious interest.
20:45And I think actually the player sees it as a potentially really good move.
20:49I think that ultimately what he's looking for is he wants a settled home now.
20:55He's at a stage of his career where he wants to play regularly.
20:57And I think the project of Sunderland is one that really appeals.
21:00But if you ask me, just my own personal instinct is that Sheffield Wednesday
21:04is always going to be the preferred option, I think.
21:06I think it just reflects the fact really that Sunderland,
21:09this has gone on longer than people would have liked.
21:12And they have to have other irons in the fire.
21:14And I think someone who's scored a lot of goals
21:15and has championship experience is someone that they kind of have to look at.
21:19But, you know, the Alexandra Mendy saga is just one of the strangest,
21:23I think, I've covered, to be honest, and sort of getting nearing on a decade now
21:28covering Sunderland.
21:28So I still think that one is obviously significant.
21:32You know, I think incredibly rare for a player to come out and say
21:35which club he wants to join.
21:37You know, Darren Bent did it famously, but we haven't had too many since.
21:41And so I still you still think that there's got to be something
21:44that can happen there for the for someone to have been in talks this long.
21:48So just don't see it as a deal that's impossible to do.
21:51You know, and I think the fact that he still wants it.
21:54But I mean, things that will still happen at some point over this window.
21:57And then I suppose the question becomes, do you need another one?
22:02Is it a case of if Clarke goes, that you then go and sort of invest
22:05further in the final third?
22:06I'm not sure.
22:07So there's loads and there's loads of moving parts to it.
22:09I think the one thing I would say about Ugo is I don't know where he'll end up,
22:12but I get the impression that we're at the end point with that.
22:15I think wherever that happens, I think we'll see it happen pretty quickly.
22:18So I get the impression he wants it sorted before the season starts.
22:21So I think I don't think we'll be waiting around too long
22:25for a conclusion on that one.
22:26If I had put my money on it, I'd put money on and go to Sheffield Wednesday.
22:29But Sunderland are definitely very much sort of seriously in that race.
22:33I mean, you mentioned the Mendy statement there, obviously, over the weekend.
22:37I mean, like you say, it is quite unorthodox, isn't it, James?
22:41But it does feel as if he's nailed his colours to the mast
22:44and he certainly wants out of Cayenne this summer.
22:47Yeah, very much so.
22:48I mean, the first statement was so bizarre that I don't think we actually ran it
22:52in the beginning because we were, is this real?
22:55Like, we're a bit confused by it, weren't we, Phil?
22:57But he's come out with a couple of other statements.
23:00It is a strange situation and also very Sunderland as well
23:02to have identified this experienced striker that everybody's crying out for,
23:06that we're finally going to pay money for.
23:08And then seemingly it's Klee and Mbappé's takeover of a French second division team,
23:13which is holding it up.
23:14It's just all very Sunderland.
23:16The Ugbo one, I think I would really like to see Sunderland get that one done.
23:22I know that Sheffield Wednesday are ahead in the race.
23:25And judging by Danny Rowe's comments as well,
23:29he thinks that it's set up for a 4-0 finish, but that Wednesday are slightly ahead.
23:34But there's a couple of points, obviously, he played with Ecuador at Chelsea,
23:37so he knows him, he knows Ian Pervader.
23:38So I think he'd be a good fit.
23:39And he's so experienced as well now for the age that he is.
23:43I think he's 25, but he's played 224 senior games now.
23:48He's got a lot of experience in the championship with Sheffield Wednesday,
23:51Cardiff on loan.
23:52He's been around different divisions as well.
23:54He's played in League One, played in League One,
23:57he's played in the Belgian Pro League.
23:59He looked really impressive last season when I did see him for Sheffield Wednesday.
24:03And I just think sometimes this comes down to,
24:06and I've mentioned it a couple of times now,
24:08are we prepared just to extend the budget a little bit to get that key striker in,
24:13which is something you have to do.
24:14I think everybody would agree that Kiril Urdrejevic,
24:17Speakman, Stuart Hartley,
24:19everybody that makes the decisions has a responsibility to always get the best deal
24:23for something that they possibly can.
24:24And we've seen, especially during the Premier League years,
24:27this club throw away money unnecessarily on the wrong transfers.
24:30So I'm all about, you know, due diligence and everything like that.
24:33But sometimes when it comes to key targets and key areas of the pitch,
24:37you do have to not overextend yourself,
24:40but perhaps extend yourself past where you initially wanted to go,
24:43not by much, but just to get that one in.
24:46I think it's so important now and it's gone on for so long.
24:49I mean, when we had Ross Stewart, we were talking about getting a backup to him.
24:54You know, when we had Ellis Sims, we were talking about,
24:56maybe we need another striker, and it's progressed over three or four windows
25:02to the point where it's become a little bit of a running joke within the fan base now.
25:06The caveat to that is a lot of clubs in the championship are looking for a striker as well,
25:10if you speak to other clubs.
25:12A lot of clubs in the championship are looking for a striker as well,
25:14if you speak to other clubs and other fans of other clubs,
25:18they all want a striker as well.
25:20So I'm not saying it's really easy to do by any means,
25:23and I'm not saying it's as simple as just pay the money.
25:25But I do think there is an element whereby sometimes you do have to just reach down
25:31into your pocket a little bit more and pay that money
25:34because it's potentially the missing piece of the jigsaw.
25:37As Phil mentioned earlier, a little bit of depth is needed as well.
25:40But if we can get a good striker that can add 10, 15 goals,
25:43I think it could put us in a really good position.
25:47I mean, one thing that we've seen Sunderland do fairly frequently
25:51in recent transfer windows is go to that loan market.
25:54You know, it's worked out better than others on occasion.
25:58Obviously, missing Birstow didn't necessarily light up the Stadium of Light last season.
26:03But do you think that that's something they could perhaps look to do again, Phil?
26:07Maybe, you know, a little later in the window,
26:09if they are still looking to add that depth,
26:11if they do want a second striker through the door,
26:13maybe see what options are out there on a temporary basis.
26:17Yeah, I think so. I think the key is to not be over-relying on it.
26:21I think we saw it to an extent with Sunderland last season with Ahmad
26:24in that it just left a gap in the squad that was, like, never realistically going to be filled.
26:29I think Middlesbrough is a great example as well.
26:31Middlesbrough, obviously, surging into the playoffs with the likes of Cameron Archer,
26:37Ryan Giles, and then they didn't make the playoffs last year
26:40because they started the season so slowly.
26:42And I think you speak to anyone around Middlesbrough,
26:43they'd say part of it was because they just had too many gaps in their team.
26:46And you've seen them really turn away from the loan market
26:49as a result to try and get their own players in.
26:52So I think that Sunderland will always look to bring their own players in first,
26:56which I absolutely agree with.
26:58And I think you're seeing at the moment that, you know,
27:00they're very much trying to get their own players in before they look at the loan market.
27:04But I also think if you aren't in a position like Ipswich last year,
27:08and Ipswich did have Premier League loans,
27:09but if you aren't in a position where you can just sort of invest whatever money you like,
27:14pretty much within reason, I think, and you're trying to go for promotion,
27:17I don't think you can afford to ignore the loan market.
27:19I just don't think you can, because I think it gives you an access to a quality of player
27:23that otherwise is just totally unattainable.
27:25And as I always say, we know that it's the Championship.
27:29So we know that in the middle of the table,
27:30there's going to be 10, 12 teams separated by a handful of points.
27:33And the team that gets into that fifth, sixth position is going to be the one
27:37who has the best luck with injuries and the one who has that little bit of stardust.
27:41So I don't think it's something that they can afford to ignore.
27:44In terms of the striker one, it's really difficult because, you know,
27:48we've seen this a few times, really.
27:50Players are going to, they're not really going to want to come in to be second choice.
27:54And that's a big issue, really.
27:58But maybe it's one way you can add a little bit of star power in another position.
28:01And like I said, the one thing we have to say is why we would all say that,
28:04you know, you need goals up front.
28:06You need goals from all over the pitch as well.
28:08And you don't have to be a striker, you know, to score loads of goals.
28:12So that's another thing I would say as well.
28:13So, yeah, I definitely think the loan market is going to be important.
28:16I don't see someone doing more than one or two.
28:19And I think that's absolutely right.
28:21But I definitely think it's something that you can't ignore.
28:24What they won't do is they won't bring in like squad players on loan.
28:28They just won't do it because the squad's already big enough.
28:31There's already enough players who, you know, can make an impact
28:34but aren't sort of locked into the team.
28:36I think there's a lot of players in that category in their squad.
28:38So I think they'll only do it if they get presented with something
28:40where they just think, you know what, this is too good to turn down.
28:44Would you think, Phil, that those sort of slight links to Jefferson
28:48would probably be dead now?
28:49I know he plays, he can play through the middle or on the right.
28:51But after we've signed Perveda, that's probably one that's not going to happen now.
28:55As in Dan Jefferson?
28:56Yeah, yeah, there were some sort of...
28:59No, I see him much more as a central striker, to be honest.
29:04I think, I know he hasn't played like hundreds of games
29:08and scored like hundreds of goals.
29:10But I think we're talking about someone who actually has like Premier League experience.
29:13You know, Bournemouth have invested a chunk of money
29:15and then Sheffield United would very much have kept him.
29:17He's only left because I think the uncertainty around the takeovers there.
29:21So I see him in that category of like first choice, to be honest.
29:24And that's kind of where I'm getting at.
29:25I don't see Jefferson coming into Sunderland to be like,
29:29oh, you know, maybe I'll get some games up front if I impress in training.
29:32I think he'll have, I wouldn't say the pick of the clubs.
29:35I think that's probably pushing it a little bit.
29:37But he will be looking for somewhere to go and play every week.
29:40So it's not something that I would rule out a deal like that.
29:44I would just be surprised if Sunderland were able to go and invest in the next
29:47Premier League striker and loan someone of that stature in.
29:50I do sometimes think like, you know, we're all guilty of and I'm very guilty of
29:55get four plays in that position, four plays in that position,
29:57four plays in that position.
29:59But like the reality is, like, it's just very difficult to keep a happy squad
30:02and a settled squad, I think, that way as well.
30:04So it's a really, really, really fine line.
30:07I think that's the one thing I would say.
30:10My gut tells me that Jefferson will be going somewhere to like play every week.
30:15I think he'll have enough clubs for Bournemouth to be able to sort of demand that.
30:20Yeah, but there's a lot of, there's a few plays in that category
30:23and we all know they won't move till the end of the window.
30:24Jay Stamfield's another one, isn't he?
30:27And again, he will have the pick of 10, 12 championship clubs.
30:31And that means that Fulham will be able to send them to the place that makes
30:34the biggest contribution financially and also where they know he's going to play.
30:37So, yeah, really, really difficult to do.
30:40You know, it's hard to sign strikers as it is, like there aren't loads around.
30:44You know, it's, that's why increasingly we're seeing people like Samish Modic
30:47who are in the golden boot, because you know, those old fashioned sort of strikers,
30:51if you like, there just aren't many of them around.
30:53And so when you find one who can do a bit of everything,
30:56it costs an absolute fortune.
30:57Ross Stewart, I think, in some ways, I think Ross Stewart's as big an issue
31:00for Sunderland's recruitment, because I think it can almost trick you
31:03that there's loads of Ross Stewart's out there.
31:05Actually, I think he's like this one just ridiculous deal
31:09that Sunderland somehow managed to do, and I sometimes wonder
31:13if there's a danger that it can lead you to think like,
31:15oh, we'll just find another Ross Stewart.
31:16And actually, like, that ain't going to happen very often.
31:21I think it's something to think about a lot.
31:23I love Ross Stewart, but maybe ruin Sunderland's strikers forever,
31:27because we're always chasing the next Ross Stewart.
31:30And then we're just, you know, realistically, it ain't going to happen very often.
31:33So I think what you're saying, Phil, is we need to go to Lee Johnson
31:36and Brian McDermott and say, would you like scout positions at Sunderland?
31:39I think that's what I took from that.
31:41There is a binder somewhere of Brian McDermott's strikers.
31:45We need to find that binder.
31:47That's what we need to do.
31:50You've sort of alluded to it there, Phil,
31:52but, you know, Sunderland do have a fair few players on the books now.
31:56I mean, we've talked about incomings.
31:58Let's maybe just talk about potential outgoings as well.
32:02One name that continues to be brought up in that regard is Elliot Embleton.
32:07Interest from Blackpool, reports of interest from MK Dons as well.
32:11I mean, have you heard anything in terms of what his immediate future might hold on Wearside?
32:17Yeah, I think, you know, we asked Labrice after the game.
32:20He'd obviously been left out of the squad.
32:22And I said, you know, is there a possibility that Elliot Embleton leaves?
32:26And Labrice said yes.
32:28And that was that.
32:29So that's a one-word answer straight to the point.
32:32I think that it's a really tricky one with Embleton because I think at the moment,
32:39it doesn't look like he's going to play regularly.
32:41I think obviously you have to acknowledge that it's going to take him a while to get up to full sharpness
32:46just because he hasn't played that much football for 18 months.
32:49And so I think from someone's perspective, because there's a lot of competition for places
32:55and the fact that he's in the last year of his contract means another loan doesn't really work out.
33:00From Embleton's perspective, he's in his mid-twenties now.
33:03He's not a young player anymore.
33:04Does he want to sign a new contract while on loan and then sort of go through it all again next summer?
33:09Or is it time for him to say, look, I've had my injury issues.
33:12I'm not going to play here.
33:13It's time for me just to go and play somewhere and find a new home, if you like.
33:18I get a little bit nervous about it, just in the sense that me and James have talked about this a lot.
33:22If you leave Embleton on the pitch for long enough, he will generally chip in with a goal or an assist.
33:27It takes risks.
33:28He can lose the ball defensively.
33:30Obviously, there's better players around and he's got real quality.
33:34And those players who actually make goal contributions, I think we've seen through Sunderland
33:38over the last 18 months, two years, there aren't too many of them around.
33:42So I would feel a sadness if he went, I think.
33:46And there's a part of me who thinks a little bit like, oh, don't rush into it,
33:49because that's someone who could actually really chip in at some point in a long championship season.
33:53But again, I might then go in a little bit back to what I was talking about before,
33:57just like keep everyone, you never know.
33:59And realistically, you can't do that.
34:01So I now think it's pretty likely Embleton will go on a permanent.
34:06I have a hunch that he will drop down the pyramid and then find his way back up really, really quickly.
34:12I think if he stays fit, I just think he'll be so clearly too good for League One or League Two level
34:17that you'll see him coming back up like super quickly.
34:20But yeah, I can see it.
34:22It's hard to be, I think I'll put it is, I don't know what James thinks.
34:25I think it's hard to criticise letting him go because I think there are so obviously so many logical reasons for it.
34:31But it's one that I'll be disappointed when it happens.
34:34And I just think it will be a shame if that makes sense.
34:38I completely understand the arguments for Elliot Embleton leaving Sunderland.
34:42Obviously, he needs to play.
34:43He's been injured for so long.
34:45I think he's three years younger than Dan Neil.
34:48And Dan Neil's actually got a couple of more senior appearances than him across his career,
34:53which sort of tells you everything you need to know about Elliot Embleton's injury record.
34:57I think where I sort of get almost a little bit annoyed really is that, and don't get me wrong,
35:04I do understand the arguments for letting Elliot Embleton leave.
35:07But for me, it's the sort of, we're just going to cast away this player who's actually contributed for us,
35:12who's come through the academy, you know, who has got quality.
35:16I think we may be being a little bit dismissive and sort of not putting perhaps enough respect on his name in a way.
35:24And I think you get the feeling, don't you?
35:29You just wonder if, because Sunderland have signed so many, you know, young, exciting attacking midfielders slash wingers,
35:36you know, Job, Aushish, probably well ahead of Embleton.
35:39Embleton could play off the left, but there's a very good couple of players there that he's not going to get a chance at Sunderland.
35:45And because he's not a player signed by this recruitment team that is futilised elsewhere,
35:52and he's not necessarily going to get that push that he did earlier in his career at Sunderland,
35:56which I think is a crying shame.
35:58Obviously, he scored that goal at Wembley.
36:00I think playing for Sunderland does mean a great deal for him and to him.
36:06So, yeah, I think a deal that makes sense would be good for his career,
36:09but one that I struggle to be happy about, really, just because of my feelings towards him.
36:17And I do think it is a crying shame when we cast players off, maybe a little bit too soon.
36:23But then again, football is a brutal business, and I do understand the arguments for letting Elliott Embleton go.
36:28It just does sting a little bit when you get this sort of heartless, like, just let him go, just get rid of him.
36:34He's no good.
36:35I do find that hard to pallet.
36:37I really do.
36:40And a few other names, potential loan exits, perhaps.
36:43I mean, we've talked a lot about the Stryker situation.
36:46It would appear that Louis Hamier is quite a way down the pecking order now.
36:50I mean, do you still see him at the Stadium of Light from the end of the transfer window, Phil?
36:56No, well, I think Hamier will go.
36:59I think, obviously, he's not been involved in the last couple of sort of...
37:03He was on the bench at Bradford on Tuesday, but didn't come off the bench.
37:07I think Zlatan made it pretty clear that he's not going to be part of La Brisa's plans.
37:10The challenge with Hamier is, where does he go?
37:14Because I think the dilemma you've got is, obviously, you want...
37:19The key things that Hamier kind of struggled with last year, one, just incredibly, totally understandable,
37:25is obviously just the scale of the move.
37:26He's a young lad moving to a completely different country, different language, totally different city.
37:32That's obviously going to take time.
37:33And we know, because we heard three different head coaches talk about it,
37:37is that they really wanted him to improve his off-the-ball capacity, improve his running, improve his pressing.
37:43So it's quite difficult, because really, both of those things, the best way to develop that is in-house,
37:47every day in training, where you can work with him.
37:50The problem is that, also, if you loan him out to the AFL,
37:55is he just going to run into the same issues he had at Sunderland?
37:58And do you potentially not really get anywhere?
38:00But if he goes, for example, back out to European League,
38:02where maybe he'll be a bit more comfortable with the playing style and maybe he'll get more minutes,
38:07are you actually then improving the things that you need him to improve for when he comes back to Sunderland?
38:12So I definitely think that I see Hamier going out on loan,
38:15but I think it's a really tricky one in terms of finding the right destination.
38:18And I actually think you saw that with Bennett, who's another one who'll go out on loan.
38:21I know he had an injury when he went out to Greece, which obviously didn't help,
38:24but that didn't seem like a great move.
38:26Again, Mienda, he's made good progress in pre-season, which is good,
38:30but that Hibbs move was a strange one that really didn't work.
38:33So I think that's, I see all of these players that we're talking about going out on loan,
38:37but what's going to be really interesting to see is what destinations actually pick for them
38:41and how Sunderland get that balance between ensuring it's somewhere where they're going to play regularly
38:46and be in a position where they can progress,
38:48but also ensuring it's the right environment that will help them do better at Sunderland when they come back.
38:53Do you know what I mean?
38:53So I think it's a really interesting one and I have no idea where Hamier will go.
38:59And I think that's going to be a really interesting decision for them to make.
39:04And James, finally, just a word on Giamattetti as well.
39:07I mean, he also looks as if he could potentially be heading out somewhere, do you think?
39:13Yeah, I think so. I really like Giamattetti.
39:15I don't think it's necessarily going to work for him at Sunderland.
39:18I think he needs to go and play games.
39:22To be fair, he's a very, very good omen to have at a League One club
39:24because I think he's won promotion in each of the last three seasons.
39:28Once with Sunderland, with Plymouth Argyll and with Oxford as well.
39:32So he's clearly got something.
39:34He's a good player.
39:36I don't think it's going to happen for him at Sunderland, to be brutally honest.
39:40I think there's just too many players that are ahead of him in that position.
39:42He's had some rotten luck with injuries.
39:44He probably would have been needed at times during Sunderland's promotion to League One.
39:51And obviously there was a couple of times in the Championship as well
39:53where we thought we might need Giamattetti,
39:55but there was a couple of injuries and it never quite happened.
39:58So I think one of those where if you can get a little bit of a feedback for Giamattetti,
40:03I think that would be good business to League One where he can go and play
40:07and he can go and develop. Still a relatively young player.
40:09He's only 23.
40:10So I think it would be one of those where it's just best for all involved and wish him well.
40:15But, you know, a good player and a really nice guy by all accounts as well.
40:19But just one of those that hasn't quite worked out.
40:22It does happen in football.
40:24And is the feeling, do you reckon that probably will be a permanent one then rather than a loan deal?
40:30What do you reckon Phil?
40:32I'm not sure, actually.
40:33I think that Giamattetti, I do think would probably be a loan just because I think that
40:40I still think that because injuries have been such a significant part of why he's not been able to break through.
40:46I don't think Sunderland would be in a rush to sell him
40:49because I think they probably feel like he's probably not at his full potential.
40:53So there's always a chance that with some regular football under his belt,
40:56he either grows his value a lot or he might show that he's actually got the level to come back and compete at Sunderland.
41:02So I think their preference would be a loan.
41:03And what I would say is I think if someone was to put the kind of money on the table where they recoup what they paid for him,
41:10then they would definitely consider it.
41:11I don't think there's any doubt about that.
41:13But if you're asking me now, my bet would be he goes out on loan.
41:17But I definitely think if someone could put a good offer on the table,
41:20then I think they'd be open to a permanent as well.
41:25Right, then I think that's very probably all we've got time for this week.
41:29Thanks to James. Thanks to Phil.
41:32Thanks to everybody watching and listening.
41:34The Raw will be back next week.
41:35It's available on all social media platforms.
41:38And as always, for everything Sunderland, keep up to date with the Sunderland Depot.
41:43Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.