Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins is here to talk about the band’s new album ‘Aghori Mhori Mei’ on #AudacyCheckIn
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00:00I'm not that guy anymore i'm not on you know i'm not on adderall and driving in a 66 buick but i became fixated on the deal okay i know i can't go home again i know for sure i can't go home again but what if you try.
00:13What would be the results of like what would that movie look like is it is it one of those sad michael moore documentaries you know what i mean where the water's all bad and people are dying or what does that feel like is it.
00:24Is it a sad thing is it a happy thing is there something part of beautiful about trying but failing and so that was the spirit that we made the record on.
00:35Hi i'm nicole alvarez and this is an odyssey check in with my guest who i'm about to sit down with billy corgan i want to start really quickly by saying that i spent time with a gory mori may.
00:45And first of all when i read the title i could pronounce it right away so i was very proud of myself because i saw the video of you explaining it but what a beautiful title.
00:55The album three times made me very unexpectedly emotional and later when we go to the album i'll tell you which songs but the guitar work is outstanding billy and it's such a confident album it's outstanding it really is.
01:10Oh thank you thank you so much we really you know we're difficult in our own weird way but we really wanted to make an album that people just felt really warm about.
01:20It was just that time in our lives to sort of make peace with a bunch of stuff including our past and somehow this record seems to bring all that together so when i hear that it really it feels really good thank you.
01:30So you are on the heels of releasing a very ambitious rock opera and you didn't have to do anything for quite some time so a lot of people were expecting this and maybe twenty twenty five.
01:41The fact that you felt compelled to write it immediately and while on tour must have meant that you had some sort of inspired urgency why why the quick turnaround.
01:54Well when i was you know real quick when i was making autumn we started during the pandemic and you know like like everybody we are all locked inside and we were freaking out about what was going to happen and how long is this going to last and.
02:08So in making the record you know the whole concept we ended up doing some kind of more i guess quote unquote traditional pumpkin style rock on the record but it was really in the character of the story.
02:22But doing the music i found i was like you know i still really enjoyed playing guitar like this this kind of old school way ish thing and so even before i finished the record i told my my partner in crime which is howard willing makes the records with me i said we got to go right into another record and we got to make a rock record i just feel that.
02:43So the minute that when i started meditating on it i was like we really need to go back to the way we used to play not to try to recreate it but to to sort of.
02:54To redefine ourselves in the right frame of mind or something and it just took a life from there it took so what you heard is that started like even before the last record was finished being recorded.
03:05Is it fair to say were you trying to.
03:08Reframe the original mindset like the old mindset yes perfect that's exactly it okay that's on paper you on paper you would think you know you pick up a guitar and go let's do like a siamese dream type song not at all.
03:23You got to get back into the mindset that you were in when you wrote those types of songs and then those types of songs start coming out of you naturally it takes a hot second yeah if you've ever if i'm trying to make people laugh but if you've ever done a thing where you dated somebody for a while and then you broke up for a while but then you get back together the relationship's not quite the same because you've broken up you you you got almost kind of figure out like a new version of the old version that's a good thing though because you you.
03:53Bring with you the lessons that you've learned so you go back you go back to the old school but with a new version of yourself it does take a second right to get your footing yeah because because there are some stuff that we did that you know it doesn't age well you know so even if you pick up a riff and go oh this is pretty cool like it's a bit musty.
04:11Okay but can we figure out a different way to say this you know and somehow over time it felt like kind of you know you cross the street and kind of pick up one thing and go to the other side and try it which is really how those records were made back in the day it was a lot of experimentation and then it just kind of took on a life of its own.
04:28So of all the things I kept reading you you kept mentioning the phrase you can't go home again and I wanted to talk to you about that phrase that's a phrase that's always that I've always carried since I was a teenager for some reason I want to know when it impacted you and what it has to do with this record.
04:45Well you know when I was successful in the 90s and I had money and I had status I I fell into that temptation to go back to where I grew up thinking that somehow people would treat me differently or look at me differently and I learned really quickly that nobody gave a shit.
05:07Wow so was that humbling?
05:11Oh very like when I put out a poetry book I think in 2004 I was doing these autograph signings and and and I would do an autograph signing to say in Boston like on the night there was a playoff game with the Red Sox right and the guy from the bookstore would come and say this is the biggest autograph signing we've ever had ever and he would name check you know famous authors right.
05:36So in the in the hubris of the moment I decided to set up an autograph signing at the mall that I used to hang out in Bloomingdale Illinois when I was a kid right there was a Borders or something it was the worst attended book signing of the entire country.
05:55Oh no.
05:57I think the signing only every signing I was doing was lasting like two hours right this signing I think lasted 15 minutes there was like 30 people there like nobody cared it was like crazy to me and even to this point I'm just trying to be funny I've never been invited back to my high school that I graduated with honors I was an honor student never been invited back to my high school ever.
06:21For anything not a charity function not a come talk to the music class about your experiences that shows you the world that I grew up in this pernicious bitter world.
06:32Yeah.
06:32So when I did try to go home again at different times in the 90s in the 2000s it was like getting slapped in the face with a fish or something you know it's like yeah hey kid this part of your life is over there's no making peace with this.
06:45So when you're in a super successful band and most of the people you run into are fixated on a certain era of your musical life you know you you just learned that that's what they're fixated on you can't talk them out of it you know what I mean that's what they care about because it's when they lost their virginity or when they jumped off a roof or something right.
07:04People also feel safer staying in like the nostalgia of their lives for some reason people just feel safer there.
07:11I respect it you know I mean I'm not here to tell you you should think differently I wish it was different but I'm not here to tell you you're wrong.
07:19Right.
07:20So as an artist you just move on into other pastures good and bad and you know you take your lumps as you go and it's not as simple as you know Bob Dylan talks about in his book Chronicles he would make these records and people would try to convince him to be 66 Bob Dylan again and he would try to give him Bob Dylan 66 and he's like it's just not that simple.
07:40You cannot I'm not that guy anymore I'm not on you know I'm not on Adderall and driving in a 66 Buick you know it's 1982 or something right.
07:49Yeah.
07:50It's just different the clothes are different the hair is different or the hair is gone whatever right so but I became fixated on the deal okay I know I can't go home again I know for sure I can't go home again but what if you tried what would be the results of like what would that movie look like.
08:07Is it is it one of those sad Michael Moore documentaries you know what I mean where the water's all bad and people are dying or what does that feel like is it is it a sad thing is it a happy thing is there something kind of beautiful about trying but failing and so that was the spirit that we made the record under.
08:23And it could be all of those things let's get to the record because I love it so much so a gory mori may of course like a Dungeons and Dragons nerd I immediately did a deep dive on the internet to try and figure out what like each word meant.
08:35And I found this reddit site where they're trying to like they all think they know the reddit site is really funny by the way the things that they're saying on there are hilarious but I want to let you talk about I never ask any artists about album title but this one is stunning so I want to know a little bit about it.
08:55Is the phrase cypher it's kind of a cypher you got to play with the letters and you got to play with the order and you'll you'll start to kind of get it.
09:02Okay okay so it's 10 songs straight up and the first thing I noticed was the guitar work one of the things that I love about the pumpkins in particular when I listen to your music I'm not in the 3d anymore I automatically go into another dimension and it's fantasy and it's beautiful and it's scary and it's dark but it's illuminating it's all of those things it's a dream world for me.
09:24And you captured that right away track number one Eden from the second it starts I was very haunted but then that guitar jolts and boom I kind of knew from the first few steps of this record that you knew exactly where you were going so tell me about tell me about Eden.
09:43You know it just kind of came out of a jam you know and once we figured out it was one of those types of songs because somewhere along the way we stopped doing these kind of long movie songs you know if anybody knows like Siamese Dream there's songs like Soma and Hummer and you know all these parts and it's very proggy.
10:00So we sort of gave ourself permission like okay if we're going to kind of try to go home again I guess we got to do these kind of songs but are they going to be good does it have that feeling and by the way are we going to say something new or is it just going to sound like we're trying to be the old band or something.
10:13And somehow that song just like leapt out of the speakers you know and you know it's like it's got like 14 parts in it and solos and I can't wait to play it live I can tell you that every time I hear it I'm like oh my god I want to play this live so bad can you imagine a show starting with that song it's just.
10:31Yes I can and I did and I did and also we'll get to this but the way you end the album honors the beginning of the album it's like just so good.
10:40Here are the three songs that I got unexpectedly emotional and by emotional I was like bawling it was Saigome, Pentecost and Who Goes There those three songs penetrated my soul and I want to know that was just my general experience tell me about some of the energy that you put into this and some of the feelings that you had yourself making these songs and then listening to them back.
11:08Well I think you know part of it and I think what you maybe unconsciously recognize is there's there's certain tonalities that we used to play with that were both sentimental but also sort of sad.
11:18Who Goes There is.
11:20Melancholish melancholish I don't mean the record I mean that's the word melancholy right.
11:25Okay.
11:25We were really good at that it's the way we would kind of do it so going back into that languaging I felt like wow I'm it's 30 years later or 25 years later and I'm standing on the same street.
11:37And playing these same types of chords but I'm saying something different you know I mean it's it's it's the wisdom or it's the heartache of like wow it didn't turn out the way I liked because as I said in a recent interview I mean if you would go back in a time machine and talk to me in 1995.
11:56And tell me hey by the way this is your the way your life's going to turn out I would have not believed you for a million dollars I was so sure my life was going to turn out completely differently.
12:05In a good or bad way.
12:06In a good way in a good way I mean the heartache that I went through between.
12:121996 or so and 2012 or so was like it was like something out of a Kafka novel you know.
12:23Everything from you know business people turning against me band problems those are obvious those are always hard to deal with because it's the family of the band.
12:32Lawsuits friends that you were thought were your best friends just completely abandoning you.
12:38People used to ask for 20 tickets when you come to town not only don't ask for tickets anymore they don't even want to see you for dinner you know you go through this whole like what happened to the life I thought I was going to have you know.
12:50And of course I think that's for everybody I'm not saying I'm special in that I just definitely I convinced myself that I was going to have this other life.
12:58And like a lot of people who grew up with a lot of trauma you end up recreating.
13:03Abandonment and all these types of things so it's a really hard lesson learn.
13:08But I've also been blessed and you know I have an incredible wife my children are fantastic and I have such a happy home life and I think it's important also point out that James and Jimmy also have children and a very happy home life so.
13:23Even though we've been through these hard times including with each other the fact that we all have this family now both behind the scenes and we're back together as a family.
13:32It feels good to play that kind of heartache sound but have something fresh to say like.
13:38Good and bad you know or good and not so good but it feels like it's from a perspective of humility and appreciation not the arrogance of youth like I know what's going to happen yeah you know listen to me I'm the Pied Piper as you we all go off the cliff together at the end of the 90s you know.
13:54I've seen you in many roles you've been a hero of mine forever you're an artist you're humanitarian I love you in the wrestling world all of that but my favorite role that I've seen you in and I got to see it firsthand when you brought them here to K-Rock was.
14:08Fatherhood.
14:10I it is I feel like it's softened you up a little bit I don't know if I'm correct in saying that but it's a beautiful shine that jumps off of you when you talk about family and whenever I've seen you with your kids.
14:25Thank you.
14:25How has that changed you they're adorable by the way.
14:29Oh thank you well first of all credit to my wife she's such a great mother and we're so blessed me and the children are blessed that she's that's sort of the rock of our family but to your point about me I think.
14:42I think I am a softy the world made me hard the music business made me hard and crazy and my children forced me or allowed me to go back to who I really am.
14:54And best way I could say to anybody whether you understand me or don't understand me is when I look at my kids and I look at their future everything else seems so second like way down the totem pole of the priorities.
15:09So how people view me whether I'm winning this fight with this critic and it seems so silly to me now that I was that guy and fighting these wars that meant nothing except maybe only to me.
15:22So my children have helped me reorient and say look you being available and you being somebody we can be proud of is so more important than anything else.
15:32And so it allows me to walk through life with the grace that maybe I didn't have before but it's not say I didn't have it I just I didn't feel it I just felt like people are going to take advantage of me and and to be fair to myself people did take advantage.
15:45Yeah.
15:45You know I mean I mean I love where the band is but you know there's been times where people sued each other you know what I mean you know we didn't start a band to one day sue each other you know what I mean we started a band to rock you know when it gets in all that stupid stuff it's there's a lot of heartache and I caused it to I'm not saying it's their fault we were all part of.
16:06So I hope that makes sense the way I'm saying it makes it makes total sense I think this is a record that both old school pumpkins fans are going to love and appreciate and be surprised with in some parts and new fans are going to be like yes I think you made an excellent record so at the end of the day if you were to answer the question can you go home again is how would you answer that.
16:30Um I think you go home again but you're going to stand on the curb you know what I mean you can't quite go in um I'll tell you one quick thing before we go right yeah uh not too long ago uh my childhood home the home that I spent the most years in the house where I was abused a lot in and all that stuff was being sold and it was being sold you know was being listed as Billy Corgan's childhood home for sale.
16:53I think I remember this.
16:55Yeah and and you know I'm still crazy in there and I thought you know what I'm going to do I'm going to buy this house I'm going to I'm going to tear it down I almost bought that house and tore it down.
17:05Damn it what stopped you?
17:06So so if I'd done that at least I could go home again and stand where the house used to be.
17:10That's right.
17:11But the house is still there it's all been rehabbed it looks all nice online so so I went home and I just stood on the curb and I sang a nice song maybe that's the best way to put it.
17:20That is the best that is the best thing you could have possibly done.
17:23Before we go just two quick questions one of them is for a lot of us music is our escape and thank you for providing that in this like constant 24-hour vicious news cycle and this insane world that we live in how do you keep your mental health in check without letting the gloom and doom be what's the main character?
17:44I think that and I've been through some serious mental health struggles almost killed myself multiple times I'm so grateful I didn't I wouldn't be talking to lovely you today but it's important to have something that's bigger than yourself so if that for you is God if that for you is family if that for you is community even if it's an artist that you really really like use that inspiration to bring the best out of yourself.
18:15And when I was super depressed somewhere in the 2000s I remember talking to a therapist and I was like look I'm going crazy here something bad's going to happen and they suggested I do charity work now when I was super depressed and lower than low the idea of helping someone else seemed completely crazy like how could I help someone I can't even get out of bed.
18:40But something about the act of charity or compassion or giving of another seems to sort of dispel the cloud.
18:48And one of the greatest things that ever happened to me when I was a youth and going through all this abuse at home and everything was I started volunteering at the old folks home and I would go there once or twice a week and all they wanted me to do was sit with the aged who'd been abandoned by their family and would cry because their daughter didn't call them anymore and all they wanted to do was have someone sit hold their hand and listen to their story.
19:14And it helped me get through my hard years of childhood because I was like wow there's this whole other world out here and I'm not the only one going through stuff it wasn't that it was misery loves company it was like I'm not the only one going through this so if you can find it yourself to do something nice for someone else whether even if you just pick up the phone and call someone that you love and say I love you I appreciate you you're such a light in my life it will make you feel better even though it doesn't have anything to do with you it's crazy.
19:44How it works trust me on this it's it's like a secret it's like a hack it's like a life hack thing I agree you're an excellent participant in the human experience I must say Billy Corgan last thing do you ever are you ever curious as to like what your fans or your friends favorite pumpkin song is do you ever ask people hey what's your favorite pumpkin song and why I'm all this is just like a curious question of mine sure because I've always wanted to tell you mine I don't know why oh please do but to finish your question.
20:14No I don't usually ask I'm honestly when I meet fans and I get it they want to tell me I saw you here but read I really want to know is I just want to ask them how they are I learned so much from talking to people.
20:28I love it and and once you get past that first minute of awkward like oh my god it's you and I was like I just say I even today I was walking down the street here I say to people say something how you doing how you feeling today you know oh we're coming to your show oh great where'd you come from yeah you know it's amazing people I drove four hours to come see you play you know how humbling that is yeah that somebody would get in a car drive four hours one way four hours back just to see a concert it's like wow and that's the kind of thing that you you stare
20:57at your phone you think my god this world so insane yeah and then you walk down the street and somebody's like oh my god I've been a fan for 25 years and I brought my daughter who's never seen you play and we drove four hours I mean are you kidding that's like
21:13it's amazing so to talk about me in that sense seems silly right you know like what's your favorite song it seems like I'm going to give you a different perspective really quickly
21:22I think it's a great conversation starter and since you love conversation for example if you
21:26were to ask me what my favorite Smashing Pumpkins song is it's always been and will always be we only
21:32come out at night period and you could ask me why and I could tell you it's because it reminds me
21:37of me and my friends at a time in our youth when the only thing that mattered was sneaking out of
21:43the house at 11 o'clock at night in Miami and going out and the world that we lived in and
21:47then from there you can ask a million different questions so I do think it's an amazing
21:53conversation starter and a way to get to know people better because we attach it to a memory
21:59of ours do you know that you know how that song was written do you know that story tell me tell
22:03me tell me I love that song so much so you know what a zither is no or an auto harp I mean I
22:11it's like it looks like a little weird harp and you press the key and it plays a chord
22:17you press another key plays a different chord okay it's like a grandma thing right right so
22:22I bought one because I thought I might be able to use it on the album melancholy and the band laughed
22:27at me and they said why the hell would you buy a zither and I was like I don't know and they're
22:32like well that's a waste of money so I got so mad I took the zither home that night and I wrote that
22:39song and the zither and I brought it in the next day totally finished with all the words and that
22:43was my way of saying the band fuck you well fuck you is right that is the song of my life like
22:48you don't understand it takes me back to this place and I I've always wanted to just share that
22:52with you for some reason because I don't I talk to a lot of people and not a lot of them bring
22:56up that particular song but that's my jam thank you all right awesome talking to you
23:02thank you so much and I can't wait to see you on the road awesome cool bye