The ways out of learning poverty — Dr. Karol Yee, education expert | The Howie Severino Podcast
Surprisingly, the pandemic did not worsen student performance, according to data cited by Dr. Karol Mark Yee, executive director of the Education Commission II, a government body that recommends legislation. “But we’re still at the bottom” among many countries, Yee is quick to add.
After years of research on learning poverty, Yee says the government’s priorities should be nutrition and education in early childhood. He also recommends unburdening teachers of an array of non-teaching responsibilities so they can focus on teaching. He cites recent improvements by the Department of Education, overlooked amid all the political distractions under former DEPED Secretary, Vice President Sara Duterte. Yee also talks about his own failures as a student before his personal journey to his PhD from the University of Cambridge in the UK, one of the world’s leading universities.
After years of research on learning poverty, Yee says the government’s priorities should be nutrition and education in early childhood. He also recommends unburdening teachers of an array of non-teaching responsibilities so they can focus on teaching. He cites recent improvements by the Department of Education, overlooked amid all the political distractions under former DEPED Secretary, Vice President Sara Duterte. Yee also talks about his own failures as a student before his personal journey to his PhD from the University of Cambridge in the UK, one of the world’s leading universities.
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00:00Good morning, Podmates! Howie Severino here again, reminding you that a long attention span is very important.
00:07Our guest today is Dr. Karol Mark Yee, a Ph.D. holder in education.
00:14He studies the state of education in our country, and his findings are saddening regarding the so-called Learning Poverty.
00:23Dr. Karol Yee, good morning to you.
00:26Good morning, Howie, and to everyone listening. Glad to be here.
00:30Karol, before we talk about what's wrong with Philippine education, I want to say that you yourself apparently did not suffer from Learning Poverty.
00:40Those are our buzzwords, right?
00:43You graduated with a Master's Degree from Harvard and a fairly new Ph.D. from the University of Cambridge, one of the UK's top universities.
00:54So, I have a serious question, Karol. How to be you?
00:57There are many trajectories for a Filipino student, many ending up with Learning Poverty.
01:06But there are also many Filipinos like you who did well in school.
01:11So, is it mostly a matter of economic class, determining trajectories for Filipino students now?
01:20Or is Learning Poverty correlated with income class?
01:24So, I think I'll unpack that statement a bit.
01:27So, one, I'll clarify that in terms of the PISA data that we found in 2018, even our top 25% of learners are not doing very well.
01:35Our top 25%, or arguably the best Filipino learners, are just equivalent to the best learners maybe in Indonesia and Cambodia, but equivalent to the worst learners in Singapore.
01:46So, when we say that it is determined by socioeconomic class, yes, there is truth to that.
01:50But the data shows that they do not escape Learning Poverty because it affects everyone.
01:55And there's reason for that, because the basic education system, at least for most private schools, rely on the inflow coming from public education.
02:04And also, most of their teachers are graduates of teacher education in our schools.
02:09And most of those are public institutions, public higher education institutions, and even private ones.
02:15I'll just pause there, Karl.
02:17That's a lot of information already.
02:20But your first statement, basically, you're saying we're far behind.
02:26We are.
02:27We are.
02:28We're far behind. That's the bottom line there.
02:30But you mentioned PISA.
02:32Can you explain what that is?
02:35I know that's often cited data to show that we do have Learning Poverty, that we are behind.
02:42We're ranked low globally, et cetera, et cetera.
02:44But PISA is also disputed by some people at the Department of Education in the past, et cetera.
02:51I mean, how do they determine this?
02:53And what is PISA?
02:54So, to be fair, PISA is really one of the few or one of several international assessments that really check on how learning is happening in countries.
03:03So, hold on.
03:04So, PISA is Program for International Student Assessment.
03:09Yes.
03:10Is that right?
03:11It was run by OECD initially for countries that are members of OECD.
03:17But it has since expanded to include other countries that intend to participate.
03:21So, it's one of the many or several international assessments out there.
03:25They survey a lot of countries and then they end up ranking, right?
03:29Yes.
03:30And then, yeah.
03:32What's the point of ranking anyway?
03:34We continue to have an inferiority complex and then, you know, we get depressed about it.
03:40Does it help to be ranking countries according to education?
03:43Or can you just say that, look, we have a learning crisis.
03:46We have learning poverty.
03:47We need to improve.
03:48To be honest, and this is my personal opinion, not representing anyone else in our organization, is that I feel that it has helped.
03:55Because when we found out that we were at the bottom of PISA, it actually was one of the triggers for the creation of our EDCOM 2, or the Second Congressional Commission,
04:04because then we realized how badly we were doing and how we had to take it seriously to address it.
04:09So, I think it is good to have that urgency.
04:12And without a sense of where we were standing or how we were faring, we may not have taken it as seriously.
04:18In fact, even if we ranked at the bottom, imagine that happened in 2018.
04:22The results came out in 2019.
04:24It's now 2024, and we're still only in the process of getting our act together to really solve the learning crisis.
04:29So, I think on one hand, it is important.
04:32Okay, we're going to be dissecting that a little bit.
04:34But first, I want to clarify for our listeners, you mentioned EDCOM.
04:38They're seeing the logo right now behind you.
04:41It's Education Commission 2.
04:43I mean, that's a very important commission in this context we're talking about.
04:48So, it's a government institution.
04:51You do a lot of research.
04:53You have a doctorate.
04:54You're leading this effort.
04:55So, just in a nutshell, what is EDCOM?
04:58What does it do?
04:59And why are you saying these things?
05:02So, the first EDCOM was in the 1990s.
05:05It was the one that recommended that let's separate DECCS to create DEPED, CHED, and TESDA.
05:10It said, let us have licensure examination for teachers.
05:13It said, let us prioritize early childhood.
05:15Let's create Teacher Education Council.
05:17So, in the education community, it's one of those pivotal moments in our history that showed that we had resolved to act with conviction in reforming or changing how things work.
05:29Excuse me, how far back was this Education Commission?
05:341991.
05:351991.
05:361991, right?
05:37So, based on a lot of research, it recommended policy changes that were implemented.
05:43That were implemented by law.
05:45You were created by Congress.
05:47Yes.
05:48So, your research findings are fed directly to lawmakers.
05:54To the legislators.
05:55Yes.
05:56So that they can legislate.
05:57Because unlike other academics, you can recommend.
06:00Sometimes, they don't listen.
06:02But you, you're sitting there in line.
06:05That is really a critical part of our positioning.
06:08That we're not just an independent body that does research.
06:11We are doing research specifically to inform policymaking.
06:15And the members of EDCOM are the committee chairs of education of both houses.
06:19So, the reaction is instantaneous.
06:21And they will take it on towards legislation.
06:26Whether it is in terms of filing a bill, amending a current bill, calling on agencies to address problems in their implementation, or in budgeting.
06:34So, it is so important that it is like that.
06:37Because many can do studies, but the positioning and the ability of it to inform policy is so unique to EDCOM.
06:44That's why when they realized that the situation was so dire, they said, maybe it's time to revive EDCOM.
06:50So, our joke is, 30 years after, there's a second EDCOM.
06:54Hopefully, 30 years from now, there's no EDCOM 3.
06:57Because we will find ourselves in the same situation as we are now.
07:00So, hopefully, that's not the case.
07:02Okay. So, EDCOM 1, it proposed these kind of game-changing changes.
07:07I remember DECCS, when I was starting out as a reporter.
07:11Department of Education, Culture, and Sports.
07:14Sports is under DECCS now.
07:17They separated the others.
07:18So, it is now focused on education as Department of Education only.
07:23So, what are you proposing?
07:26Granted, we have all of these problems in education.
07:30What's the game-changer that you're studying now and recommending?
07:35So, I think there are many differences between the first EDCOM and the second.
07:39The first EDCOM, it was still institution-building.
07:42So, it said, create this, create that, create this, create that.
07:45I think, for the most part, what we are seeing now is implementation challenges.
07:49And connecting a system that has many moving parts together in a way that allows it to continuously succeed.
07:56Because what we're seeing is, yes, the institutions were created.
07:59But they acted so independently of one another that things did not come together.
08:04So, I cite many examples of this.
08:06But I think our main issues or the main tasks that lie ahead for us is really, one, prioritizing learning.
08:13Creating institutions does not mean you will fix learning.
08:17And we find that the biggest problem we have now is that students are not learning, even if our participation rates are so high.
08:23The second is to prioritize.
08:25Because you have problems from early childhood all the way to university.
08:28What we are seeing now is we kind of neglected the most important part, which is nutrition in the early years, as well as early childhood education.
08:36Those are two things that have come out in the past decade as being so critical so that students don't drop out and so that students succeed in school.
08:44We need to do better there.
08:46And third is the governance structures.
08:48Because, yes, you created it, but EDCOM 1 did not say, do this and everything will be perfect, that it will solve all problems.
08:54Obviously, there was a process of continuously refining our governance structures in a way that works.
08:59And I think that's where we need to improve.
09:01So, I think, directionally, those are the three big buckets that would be considered as the EDCOM 2 responsibilities to refine.
09:11Okay.
09:12Carol, we've also come across findings from EDCOM 2 and then also the Philippine Institute for Development Studies apparently is saying the same thing about the lost teaching days.
09:27Because, of course, the face-to-face interaction between students and teachers is crucial in education.
09:37And one cause for our poor performance, the poor performance of students in the Philippines, is the number of teaching days that we're losing every year.
09:51And recently, because of school closures due to the heatwave.
09:58But every year, there's always a typhoon and then in some parts of the country, there's a war, etc.
10:05There's a targeted number of teaching days where there's contact between the teachers and students.
10:10But you've also cited other reasons, the non-teaching responsibilities that are added to the teaching tasks of the teachers.
10:20Okay.
10:21So, how significant is that, the number of teaching days lost?
10:26Because of the reasons that you're citing for the poor performance of students, I didn't hear the loss of teaching days.
10:34You cited nutrition.
10:35Of course, all of those factors are important.
10:38But this past summer, when there was class, they canceled the class.
10:43But we went back to the pandemic mode where it became online.
10:49Maybe some places became modular and then the parents had to become teachers again or whatever.
10:55But you're saying that that's not very effective.
10:59The students really need to be inside the classroom.
11:02Well, to be honest, in the study that we released, 53 teaching days, the largest chunk of it was really climate change issues.
11:10Like the heat index and possibly typhoons.
11:13The second one, 12 days, is about admin tasks of teachers.
11:17For the first one, I think, of course, how could you avoid it?
11:21It's really going to happen.
11:22Whether or not you move the school calendar, either you're avoiding the heatwave or you're avoiding typhoons.
11:26At a certain point, you will lose days or in-person days of teaching because of calamities or natural disasters.
11:33But I think there are ways to creatively address that.
11:36On one hand, in private schools, for example, and you cited earlier how –
11:41I went to a private school, obviously, for basic education.
11:44In private schools, you catch up on lost days on other days, either Saturday classes or you do activities at home to make up for it or there's homework.
11:53We just need to be more proactive in acknowledging that there will be days that might be lost because of calamities.
12:00Therefore, we have ready alternatives to make sure that it does not become lost days for learning.
12:06The other side of it also is, in the pandemic, we were test-driven in terms of using of modules.
12:11That's not a bad thing.
12:12It's not perfect, yes, but it is not bad if only we make sure that, one, we have quality materials that are accessible to students.
12:21Second, that parents know how to actually support their kids in going through it.
12:26Of course, the needs of students will vary if you're a Grade 1 student versus a Grade 7, Grade 10 kid.
12:32We could tailor-fit whatever interventions we are doing to save lost teaching days or instruction days in a way that conforms to the level of the learner.
12:40That's one.
12:41The second, when it comes to admin tasks, that's a huge problem.
12:45In fact, if you read all of the reports from the Monroe Survey in 1925 all the way to today, it is one of the biggest problems of Philippine education.
12:56Why is that?
12:57Because it goes back to our history.
12:59We had little funds.
13:01We wanted to establish a public education system under the Commonwealth.
13:06Of course, when you have few funds, you want to reach a lot, you just prioritize teachers to them, teachers to them.
13:13We kept expanding, expanding, expanding, and everything else became a first-world problem.
13:19All of the other tasks, no one is doing.
13:23IT coordinator, registrar, school canteen manager, disaster risk reduction officer, supplementary-based feeding program coordinator.
13:34School-based feeding program, everything else.
13:39At the end of the day, no one was going to do it except the teacher because the bulk of schools only have teachers.
13:46We always cite several high schools in Quezon City, 560 teachers, 4 non-teaching personnel.
13:53I mean, who's going to do the job?
13:55And they have about 17,000 students.
13:57Imagine if you have 17,000 students and only 4 who are not teachers, who will address all of their other needs?
14:04And we know that in private schools, you have librarians, you have guidance counselors for each grade level, you have all of these type of personnel.
14:12That is non-existent and it is not a first-world problem.
14:16We know for a fact that these professionals are so needed in a school because a school is not just composed of teachers.
14:23And in fact, this is reflected in our College of Education institutions.
14:27If you see all of our schools of education, they're all teacher institutions.
14:32Most of the programs we're offering are teachers.
14:34None of the other specializations are really given as much attention.
14:38In fact, when we mapped out guidance counseling, there are several regions without offerings in guidance counseling.
14:44Entire regions, like Region 8, not a single provider of guidance counseling for an entire region.
14:51So, it really shows you how we've continuously just built on this system in the early 1900s without really improving how we did things.
15:00So, that's what we're working on now with DepEd, to update the school staffing standards to identify what are necessary non-teaching personnel in a school for it to actually function without adding burdens to teachers.
15:12Okay, what you just said, Carol, it doesn't really sound like it requires a huge analytical power to say that, well, one problem of the school system is the teachers are doing so many things.
15:28They cannot teach.
15:30Aside from teaching, you and I, many know that a big problem now is mental health of students.
15:36Then you're saying, no guidance counselors.
15:39Who's doing the guidance counseling?
15:42A big part of the problem, many students, may not even be academic.
15:47It's really mental health, especially after the pandemic.
15:50So, the question there is, you said that the problem is still in the US colonial period.
15:55A lot of responsibilities are being added to teachers.
15:58So, why?
15:59I mean, they're also the election monitors, right?
16:02In elections, they're the go-to.
16:04Department of Education already gets the biggest budget.
16:07So, is it simply that?
16:09Despite the biggest budget, the budget is still lacking?
16:12Or is the Department of Education or government spending the money on the wrong things, wrong priorities?
16:20Because obviously, to say that teachers need to teach more, I mean, that's just common sense.
16:25It's a given.
16:26Yeah, it's a given.
16:27Maybe I'll cite three, and this might get into some government speak.
16:30You know, it goes with a lot of housekeeping.
16:33So, what we've done in the past months with DepEd is to look at all of the roster of positions approved for DepEd.
16:39And in fact, DepEd, our partners in DepEd, found some positions that existed in the 1980s and 1970s,
16:46which should have been obliterated already, making room for new positions.
16:51So, when they cleaned it up, you know how much money was going to be saved because we have obsolete positions?
16:56500 million.
16:58So, a lot of things in a huge system that is quite unwieldy, things just get overlooked.
17:05You don't have the time for spring cleaning every time.
17:07So, what happens is you don't get to really rationalize things in the most optimal way.
17:12The second is, if you understand how government works, there's personnel hired through plantelia positions and personnel hired through MOE,
17:21or what we call operational expenses, so contract of service.
17:24So, we've been kind of inclined in the past decades to continuously add and add and add programs,
17:31but only put it under MOE without any personnel involved.
17:35So, what happens is DepEd now needs to run a new program, but then hire all contract of service.
17:41So, it's not sustainable, and neither is it systematic.
17:44So, whether or not it is the most optimal use of government resources, that's a question mark,
17:49because you have so many contract of service, day in and day out, it will be gone.
17:53And then, there's no staffing added to the schools.
17:56So, those are the two, I think, things that are most critical.
17:59And the third is really money.
18:02Because you know what, if we give the schools now all of the positions that they need,
18:07I think it will take us several years, maybe a decade, to actually fund all of it.
18:11We have 47,000 schools.
18:13If you say that now, increase from four people to 15 people, that's 15 times 47,000,
18:21times benefits of people for all of these people for 12 months each year.
18:26So, it will amount to billions and billions of funds.
18:30And to be honest, if to go back to our history also,
18:33when did we start having resources to address shortages in education?
18:37It was only maybe in the past decade or maybe 15 years.
18:41So, we're also just in the process of really cleaning things up and making sure shortages are filled.
18:48So, that's where we are.
18:49Okay. So, the budget, I mean, that's the perennial problem of a lot of departments
18:55and national priority schools.
18:57But how about just basic policymaking and decision-making?
19:03You're aware that the Philippines, of course,
19:05had one of the longest school shutdowns in the world during the pandemic.
19:10I don't know, in the UK, shortly after the pandemic was declared by the World Health Organization,
19:15schools might have reopened within months, no?
19:18I know that in parts of Scandinavia, after six weeks,
19:23schools might have reopened.
19:26The Philippines insisted on keeping schools closed.
19:31I remember doing an interview for this podcast with Deputy Secretary Leonor Briones,
19:38and she was in favor, I think this was even after months of the pandemic already,
19:45she was in favor of reopening schools selectively.
19:49Not all provinces have high COVID, right?
19:54Okay, we can understand, Quezon City, certain parts of Cebu,
19:58maybe, okay, let's keep all the students at home to be safe.
20:02But, you know, there are places, let's say, in Batanes, in small island communities,
20:06mountain villages, Sagada, where there's almost no COVID, etc.
20:12Why don't we open the schools there?
20:14The teachers are already there. They're from there.
20:16There are no tourists now, etc.
20:19And Secretary Briones said President Duterte doesn't want to.
20:25So, in hindsight, was that a bad decision?
20:29And could that have been a large contributory factor to our situation now?
20:38So, ironically, this is funny because there are two pieces, one in 2018 and 2022.
20:45In between that was a pandemic, right?
20:48So, what was actually surprising is that we were better off after the pandemic.
20:54So, people are actually saying, are schools the problem?
20:58Are students better off at home just learning on their own?
21:02Because we fared quite better, actually.
21:05We improved our performance in several subjects,
21:07although we didn't jump in terms of rank,
21:09we actually improved in terms of performance despite the pandemic happening.
21:13So, I could not necessarily relate it to the lockdown or the shutdown of schools.
21:20But it is a problem because you know that we unnecessarily lost some days
21:25when we didn't have to for some students.
21:27But it also speaks of, I'm not sure if it is our societal nature or DepEd itself,
21:34of a very centralized regime where what happens is everything needs to be dictated from the top,
21:40whether it is the president or whether it is the secretary.
21:43And I think what we really need to do is to decentralize.
21:47And, my God, if you attend our EDCO meetings,
21:49it's always everyone is talking about decentralization
21:52because at the end of the day, there is no one-size-fits-all.
21:55And in education, context is so important.
21:58For example, the problems of a learner, for example, in Masbate,
22:01would be different from Katanduanes.
22:03So, you can't have one-size-fits-all programs being brought down from central office
22:09and applied everywhere.
22:10When teachers, assuming that they are well-equipped and they are well-resourced,
22:16are in the best position to respond to the students right in front of them
22:20because there are different challenges that every child is facing.
22:24So, that's what we're talking about.
22:26How do we make sure that decision-making moving forward is decentralized
22:31and that people on the ground are empowered enough,
22:34with the authority and the resources, to actually do what is best for their students?
22:39So, that is a long journey.
22:41You said that your findings or the PISA findings,
22:46the International Assessment findings,
22:48show that the pandemic apparently did not have much of an impact
22:54on the performance of students in the Philippines.
22:58Yeah.
22:59Is that right?
23:01What we're saying is that it did not have an impact.
23:04But we're still at the point.
23:07Yeah, but in other words, the pandemic did not seem to worsen the performance
23:14based on the data, which seems counterintuitive, right?
23:19I think most educators will agree that it's better for students
23:24to have this face-to-face interaction.
23:27That actually contradicts the point made earlier about the lost teaching days.
23:35Well, because basically what you're saying,
23:38the lost teaching days are crucial because the students are not interacting face-to-face
23:44in the classroom with their teachers.
23:47But during the heat wave, we went back to pandemic mode.
23:52Even if we had the pandemic and even if we had the lockdowns
23:55and we were not able to go to school,
23:57actually, it wasn't any different or not significantly different
24:01from what was a regular school year
24:03because apparently we lost so many days anyway regularly.
24:07So, it was pretty much the same deal.
24:10So, I guess what's important to us is not the number of school days
24:13or not the number of teaching days,
24:15but the number of days that students are actually learning
24:18and that is what is most important to us.
24:20So, I think that's what's critical.
24:23In other words, learning from a screen on Zoom can be just as effective
24:28as learning inside the classroom.
24:30Is that what you're saying?
24:31Arguably, except that we know the context of most Filipino learners,
24:35that access to technology is very low,
24:38electricity is not accessible in most,
24:41and also because most don't have learning resources at home
24:44that they are better off in school.
24:46Presumably, that schools would have all of these resources,
24:49which we know is also a question mark
24:51because what we've seen also from the data in the EDCOM Year 1 report
24:55is that of all textbooks since 2012,
24:57only Grade 5 and 6 were actually successfully delivered for all subjects,
25:01not even talking about are there books in the libraries,
25:04are there other learning resources that the schools should have.
25:07So, it is always working with the assumption that the schools,
25:10you're better off in school because one,
25:13the teacher is in front of you and can teach.
25:15Second, you have learning resources that are available around you.
25:18And third, you have services or access to services,
25:21such as guidance counseling,
25:22which you need because you have other concerns apart from learning.
25:25So, it comes with these three assumptions,
25:28which we are seeing now is not always the case in many Filipino schools
25:33because of our inability to deliver them cohesively.
25:36Okay, I need to ask you now, Carol,
25:39because you're quite clear in explaining all of the problems
25:45that constitute this learning crisis in the Philippines
25:48that apparently has persisted through the years.
25:51But on top of all of these issues, like the budget
25:55and all the burdens on teachers, all their responsibilities, etc.,
26:03that has become embroiled in all of this politics.
26:07Vice President Sara Duterte was made Secretary of the Department of Education
26:14and frankly, during that time, I rarely heard her talk about these issues.
26:21Maybe because it's media's fault,
26:24it wasn't highlighting what she was saying about these concerns.
26:27But what highlights are the intelligence funds that she wanted for the Department of Education,
26:33which created this friction within the two political dynasties
26:38that united for the election.
26:41And then now, she left in kind of an abrupt fashion.
26:46It's just become one big distraction.
26:49I can imagine how teachers are feeling.
26:52There are so many problems.
26:54And then what people are talking about, even more interested in maybe,
26:59is the political future of the Secretary of the Department of Education.
27:04How big a factor was that in the performance of students,
27:08and the improvement of services of the Department of Education?
27:12Or was it all just a deadmau5?
27:15Now, in terms of the political,
27:17you know, to be fair, and of course, this is quite a sensitive topic to discuss naturally
27:23because I work in government and I am part of a congressional commission.
27:27I would say a few things.
27:28One, having the Vice President there, I feel, personally, put a spotlight on DepEd a lot.
27:37Yes, there were times when the spotlight was not always on the learning crisis,
27:43but sometimes on the confidential fund issue.
27:45But as you said, I think it is more of the media attention placed into it,
27:49and it was nitpicked, scrutinized, compared to the learning crisis.
27:53I heard more about the confidential funds than learning poverty, to be honest.
27:59Second, I have not interacted directly with the Vice President.
28:02So, I mean, apart from a photo, I did not engage with her personally in my work.
28:07But at least for her team that I worked with,
28:10they actually were able to resolve a good number of issues that perennially have been there.
28:15Two things I would like to commend them for is, one, textbooks.
28:19Most of the textbooks for grades 4 and 7 learners, for the first time,
28:23will be delivered within the first three months of this year.
28:28That is a commendable achievement.
28:31The second is, the AOs, administrative officer positions that were hired throughout March,
28:37all the way till now, to unburdened tasks of teachers,
28:41they did in record time across many, many schools.
28:45And that is really unheard of given government bureaucracy space.
28:49Yes, there were distractions because of the political aspect of it.
28:54But in terms of the team that she worked with that I know personally,
28:58at least they were those who really performed and really were able to deliver.
29:03Yeah, so at least that's all I could say about the deputy leadership.
29:09Okay, understood.
29:11So, she's gone and then there's a new secretary now, Senator Sunny Angara.
29:18And I do know that you had once worked for Senator Angara's father.
29:24Yeah, how do you know that?
29:27I was going to say full disclosure, I did. Yes, I did.
29:31Yeah, I know. We saw your credentials, Carol, earlier in your career.
29:37So, you have a long history then of studying education issues, including K-12.
29:44You were with the Commission on Higher Education, etc.
29:48So, do you know Secretary Sunny Angara? Have you ever worked with him?
29:55Yes, yes, yes.
29:56What should we expect?
29:58So, I've known him since he was congressman and I was working for the father in the Senate
30:03because we would always work hand-in-hand on filing counterpart measures on education.
30:09I think at that point he was also the committee chair for higher education in the House of Representatives.
30:14So, I've known him for the past 10 years.
30:17He was one of the people actually who asked me to come home to work with Edcom.
30:22So, I know him personally and we've worked closely on education issues.
30:26So, I do know that he is a very hands-on leader.
30:29He is no-nonsense.
30:31He takes things very seriously in terms of targets and making sure that we are delivering on time.
30:36And he is very focused when it comes to learners.
30:39So, actually, the first question he asked in the strategic planning was,
30:44how do we form eager and curious learners?
30:48I said, okay.
30:49I've read so many studies and I've done this all my life and crunched all of the data.
30:54But just how he's able to center in on the learner is something that is important as a reminder,
31:01even to me as a policy wonk or as a technocrat,
31:03who would think of all of the regressions instead
31:06and who would think of all of these other things that need to be fixed.
31:09So, I think he is a good leader to have in DEPED.
31:13He has been chair of the Committee on Finance in the Senate for the past five years
31:19and DEPED has the largest budget in government, about P30 billion still underutilized.
31:25So, there's still a lot that can be done.
31:27And he understands the issues well and he will be able to get it to shape by home.
31:32And what should he be focusing on?
31:35Obviously, learning recovery.
31:38Obviously, learning recovery.
31:39That's first and foremost.
31:41Because today, we still know that…
31:43Sorry, what do you mean by that?
31:44What do you mean by learning recovery?
31:46By learning recovery, we are saying that there are a lot of Filipino kids in the classroom.
31:51They go to school every day starting July 29.
31:54But even if they sit in front of the classroom, even if the teacher is there,
31:58they don't learn because it's not literate and numerate.
32:01Because we know that they can understand words, maybe,
32:05but could not string them together and comprehend what it means.
32:08And this is not just grade 1, grades 2, grade 3.
32:12We know for a fact that there are many, many graduates or many, many students
32:17in different grade levels who were able to get promoted but did not have foundational skills.
32:23That is so critical because you could not build on anything
32:27or you could not learn more complex lessons if you don't have these foundational competencies.
32:31So, it is so critical to address them at the soonest possible time.
32:35That is urgent.
32:36The second urgent thing also is teachers.
32:39They could not teach.
32:41You need to reduce administrative burdens of teachers so they could focus on teaching.
32:45So, those are the things.
32:47And then the other inputs, we need to decongest classrooms
32:50because we still have a good number of triple shift and double shift classrooms.
32:55We need to be able to deliver on the learning resources such as textbooks completely
33:00until the end of matatag curriculum.
33:02We need to make sure that teachers have the support that they need.
33:06You know, our teachers, we were counting it.
33:08It takes about, if I'm not mistaken, about 15 years before they get promoted from teacher 1 to teacher 3.
33:1415 years.
33:16So, 15 years from salary grade 11 to salary grade 13 and most people retire at teacher 3.
33:23So, this is really unjust because a lot of our teachers get the credentials,
33:28are actually eligible to get promoted, but because there are no positions, could not get promoted at all.
33:33So, there are no incentives to performing well in school.
33:38So, we need to fix all of these factors to really address this learning crisis that we're facing.
33:43And I hope and I think Senator Sunny will deal with this as soon as he takes office on Friday.
33:49Well, so, I'll answer that question and sorry for this detour,
33:54but I'll go back to your previous question and also to connect it to my own experience.
33:58When we started this interview, you asked about my own personal journey as a student.
34:02And I was going to say, but I failed to.
34:05So, as a student, I actually failed so many subjects.
34:09I was bugsuck in grade 5, in grade 6, in grade 7, in math, in science, in Chinese.
34:16What made a difference to me was teachers who were willing to stay extra hours to tutor me,
34:22to give me feedback, to help me through books that I could study.
34:27So, I would study weeks in advance for certain lessons and read and reread and reread at home.
34:31And that there were assessments that teachers told my parents,
34:35oh, based on his assessment, he can actually do so much better because of his IQ and all of these assessment tests.
34:41And therefore, we know he can fulfill his potential better.
34:44So, resources, teachers who actually have time, and assessment.
34:48So, those are so critical.
34:50And we know that teachers cannot teach because they have so many tasks.
34:55Our teacher-to-student ratio is 1 is to 60, 1 is to 70 in some schools.
35:00Triple shift, double shift, there are so many schools.
35:02How would they tutor anyone even if they were failing?
35:05Second, there are no textbooks, no resources in schools.
35:08And third, assessments are not administered, if at all, administered two years late.
35:12So, those are critical.
35:13So, I'm saying that's important.
35:15But we know that, I mean, personally, in my own journey, I know what helps.
35:19Because I've gone through the same and I improved because of the support from teachers.
35:23We want to get your take in a nutshell on several kind of hot button issues these days.
35:31During the near the height of the heat wave, when classes were canceled,
35:38President Marcos said that we need to go back to the old school calendar.
35:44What's your take on that?
35:46I think it was already decided that we will already go back in phases this year,
35:51one month earlier, and next year, back to June.
35:54Okay, so that's already a policy?
35:56Yes, that's already a policy.
35:57To be honest, based on the feedback, because again, I was not here when this happened,
36:02when the shift happened, because of the pandemic.
36:05They adjusted it because at that point, it was the earliest point that we could reopen classes
36:11because we closed down for so long.
36:15So, I don't think it was necessarily because of climate change.
36:19Maybe that was a secondary reason.
36:21But the primary one was that we were wanting to reopen as soon as possible.
36:25But it has passed.
36:26The June date has passed, which is why we started late.
36:29Yeah, so that's it.
36:31Personally, I feel that yes, we should.
36:34We should move back to the old school calendar,
36:36but also be vigilant in counting or monitoring how many lost teaching days we might have
36:43as a result of the move, and then reassess.
36:46Okay, Carl.
36:48Mother tongue.
36:49How do you feel about that?
36:50Has that been effective, instruction in the mother tongues of students?
36:54So, mother tongue is good in theory, if implemented well.
36:58But to be honest, we don't have the capacity to implement it.
37:01In fact, most of the literature on mother tongue says it is effective if you have a late exit.
37:06And late exit is grade 6.
37:08Our exit is grade 3, and then you transition by grade 4.
37:12So, to begin with, there is no substantial evidence to prove that an early exit is as effective
37:20in improving learning outcomes.
37:22Second, in terms of how we are able to implement it in an archipelago
37:26and in a country that is so linguistically diverse and with so much internal migration,
37:31I really doubt that we will be able to implement it in a way that does better for learners
37:37instead of harms more.
37:39So, I think we cannot implement it well.
37:43So, we might need to find a middle ground when it comes to mother tongue.
37:46So, yes.
37:48Okay, K-12.
37:50There are many components to K-12.
37:52First is kinder.
37:53I think kinder should stay.
37:55And we did so well by adding kinder as an integral part of the enhanced basic education system.
38:02That needs to stay.
38:04The decongesting that apparently should have happened prior is happening now with the mother tongue.
38:10So, that is good progress.
38:12Second, you had spiral progression.
38:16And there is so much feedback on the ground that it is difficult to implement,
38:21and it does not align with how we actually train our teachers.
38:25So, there are problems there.
38:27And then mother tongue.
38:29So, kinder, okay.
38:31Decongesting could have been improved.
38:34It's being improved.
38:35Mother tongue, impossible to implement.
38:38Spiral progression, difficulties on the ground.
38:40We might need to recalibrate.
38:42Senior high school, a lot of good intentions, but we need to really assess our capacity to do it properly
38:49because what we know on the ground is, the intended tracks or strands,
38:53what happened was because of limited capacity from the side of DEPED,
38:57it became a general academic strand instead of accounting and business management,
39:01humanities and social science, STEM.
39:04What happened was, in many schools, it was just general academic strands.
39:08So, it was lumped anyway together.
39:10We also know that TVL has many problems because when we implemented TECVOC,
39:16what they made available was what they could make available,
39:19not what was needed by communities,
39:22and not one that we were able to properly equip in terms of facilities.
39:27And we know that for TECVOC, it's hands-on.
39:29You cannot do it theoretically.
39:31So, unless we're able to deliver it and make sure that there are equipment to be used by students to actually learn it,
39:37then it's not really as effective as it should be.
39:40So, a lot of imperfections there that really need to be reviewed.
39:43DEPED is supposed to be releasing their assessment of the senior high school curriculum and its effectivity this month.
39:50And there is also discussion now in the house on how to revise or revamp senior high school.
39:56So, that needs to be done because what we know for sure is that senior high school had good ambitions.
40:02It was a good aspiration for us to do.
40:05But whether or not we were able to implement it properly, we need to rethink.
40:10Okay, you mentioned textbooks earlier.
40:13Sometimes there are issues that come out about the accuracy of textbooks.
40:18But how prevalent are the problems related to textbooks?
40:23So, I think, to be honest, as a layman, I was more higher ed person because I was working in CHED.
40:28So, I thought, ah, textbooks, the problem was the wrong content.
40:32But actually, I was so surprised to find out that they were to begin with very few textbooks.
40:37So, I have to actually confirm, were the errors in textbooks the ones that were procured by DEPED itself?
40:45Because if you're an LGU with money, you're rich because of your special education fund, you could buy textbooks.
40:51And it could get delivered in public schools.
40:53So, I could not pinpoint exactly if the problems that we know from media would be the textbooks that were actually procured by DEPED
41:01or actually procured by local schools and by LGUs or another iteration altogether.
41:08So, I have to check that because for me, the bigger problem is that there are no textbooks to begin with except for grades 5 and 6.
41:15Okay.
41:16Kara, I interviewed a big city mayor recently.
41:20And he was very proud of the fact that he was claiming at least that every public school student in his city was issued their own laptop.
41:33How important is that in terms of performance of a student to have your own laptop?
41:42It's definitely a huge feat given the cost of the laptops.
41:45Second, we do know that in some countries, including in some schools in the Philippines,
41:50they perform better in the PISA because their students were used to using technologies and could use laptops.
41:57So, that helped a lot.
41:59Third is we know, of course, that having access to technology with the quality that you know how to use it properly
42:06really allows you to access so much more information that what books could provide you on its own,
42:11especially when you have a dearth of textbooks, it gives you access to so much technology.
42:16So, yes, I think it's valuable, but it's not a replacement to anything if it's not used properly and the teachers are not equipped to use it well.
42:25So, yeah, pros and cons, but more good than bad.
42:28Okay.
42:29In the curriculum and textbooks in particular, there's not as much history being taught now as before.
42:35Of course, some are saying that there are political repercussions of that.
42:41People will tend to believe more in false narratives about the past, which also affect elections.
42:49But do you buy that argument?
42:52And do you think we don't teach enough history?
42:57So, we didn't really study this extensively as a priority area of EDCOM, but my team did look into it.
43:03So, when we checked it, and you compare curricula from the revised basic education curriculum,
43:09which is pre-K-12, and then K-12, and then MELKS during the pandemic, and then the Matatag.
43:16So, actually, the movement happened between the previous curriculum, the ARBEC, and K-12.
43:22So, in the decongestion of competencies,
43:25they just removed the subjects that used to be in high school and then kept it in grades 5, 6, 7, I believe, or 4, 5, 6.
43:34So, it is still taught there.
43:36What happened before was that it was repeated again in high school.
43:40So, the question, I think, if I understand it correctly, is whether or not we should repeat history lessons in high school
43:46for what assumedly has been taught in basic education already or in lower grades.
43:52So, if that is the question, then if I am conscious about decongesting the curriculum, my answer is no.
43:59But I guess the question is, was it taught at the right age in a way that a student can actually imbibe what lessons were being taught
44:07and that could actually forms character and forms part of his consciousness as a civic-minded person in a country?
44:18That is the question, Mark.
44:19Whether you could achieve that as young as grade 5 or grade 6, or whether you are better taught that in high school,
44:25maybe is the question we should ask instead of repeating the same content twice.
44:29Because, again, when we repeat the same content twice, it's students who complain about it.
44:34We've studied this now. Why am I studying this again?
44:36So, I went through that. I studied Philippine history, but I studied it in elementary, studied it again in high school.
44:45And in fact, when I went back to college, I studied it again. So, I studied history thrice.
44:50So, is the repetition critical in ensuring that we remember it, or is it timing, or is it us just really taking it to heart?
44:59So, I guess those are questions that we should ask.
45:02Okay. ROTC, should that be reintroduced in schools?
45:08So, to be honest, I don't have an informed opinion on ROTC except from my own experience.
45:12I mean, I have to admit, of all the issues in education, that is one that I haven't really made time to study because there are so many concerns.
45:20Personally, I did ROTC in high school. I did NSTP in college.
45:25I guess I would go back to the question of what is the objective?
45:29If it is to instill love of country, then I think there are different ways of achieving that.
45:35If it is supporting national defense, that's another question altogether.
45:39So, I think it goes back to the core intention. And what is it? And therefore, what is the right solution?
45:45Okay. Carol, I'll just wind down now by going back to what you said about your own personal journey.
45:52As you recall, I opened the interview by asking you about how to be you.
45:57You have a doctorate from the University of Cambridge.
45:59So, I think our listeners will find it inspiring that you actually talked about failing subjects.
46:05And you had to receive some special attention from tutors and teachers.
46:10So, that's hopeful because not all successful students start out successful.
46:17And they're maybe failing students now after listening to you saying,
46:21Hey, I still have hope, etc.
46:23But you also cited a supportive family. You went to a private school.
46:28So, maybe not exactly that replicable.
46:33I mean, to what extent would you have succeeded if you didn't have those advantages?
46:38So, the other thing, Howie, is also that I was, at least for UP and also for all of my graduate studies, it was scholarships all the way.
46:47I did not pay anything, personally, because I was able to get scholarships.
46:53And even in my private school, so I went to Xavier, and Xavier has a Grants in Aid program.
46:59And so, there were times when my family could not afford the tuition that they would actually ask for help or support from the school to shoulder the tuition or to waive the tuition fee cost.
47:10So, it was not an easy ride.
47:12Definitely, there were advantages and there were also supports.
47:16And that is so critical.
47:17Now, I was actually able only to get through all of this because there were supports along the way.
47:23Because, contrary to what you said, my family wasn't able to just pay for all of it like that so easily.
47:30So, there were a lot of sacrifices involved also.
47:34So, my PhD topic is education and social mobility.
47:39And in social mobility, it is so critical.
47:42Scholarships play such an important role because people from disadvantaged families are able to access good quality education.
47:49And if there is enough mechanisms for the advantages of the rich to rub off on the scholars, they actually gain the social networks, gain so much advantages that they otherwise wouldn't have achieved,
48:01and achieve things that otherwise they wouldn't have been able to do just in a regular school.
48:06So, I think there's a lot to be said of scholarships and also financial assistance programs for disadvantaged learners that I think we should talk more about and give attention to.
48:16You've given us a lot of insights already.
48:19Karol, we want to thank you.
48:21It's good to know that someone like you is focused on helping solve the learning crisis.
48:28Thank you.
48:29Thank you for your service.
48:32Thank you for your service, Dr. Karol Marti.
48:35Executive Director of the Second Congressional Commission on Education or EDCOM 2.
48:41Mabuhay ka.
48:42Thank you.
48:43Thank you, Howie.
48:44Thank you, everyone.
48:45Salamat po.
48:46Hi, I'm Howie Severino.
48:48Check out the Howie Severino Podcast.
48:50New episodes will stream every Thursday.
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