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00:00Thank you very much for being with us.
00:06Hamas led other Palestinian armed groups in committing hundreds of war crimes in the October
00:117th cross-border attack on southern Israel that set off the current war in Gaza.
00:17A Human Rights Watch report released this Wednesday cites Hamas on these war crimes.
00:21Here at France 24, Catherine Kedder-Clifford with this.
00:26On the 7th of October 2023, Palestinian armed groups crossed the border from Gaza into Israel,
00:33carrying out the worst attack on Israeli civilians in history.
00:37Nine months later, the NGO Human Rights Watch has published a report on the incursion.
00:42It found that hundreds of war crimes were committed that day.
00:46Based on an in-depth investigation, it focuses on violations of international humanitarian
00:51law, giving a grim inventory of the crimes committed by Palestinian armed groups that
00:56day, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks against civilians and civilian objects,
01:02willful killing of persons in custody, cruel and other inhumane treatment, sexual and gender-based
01:08violence, hostage-taking, mutilation and despoiling or robbing of bodies, the use of human shields
01:15and pillage and looting.
01:17Human Rights Watch also lists crimes against humanity, saying the intentional killing and
01:22hostage-taking of civilians was planned and highly coordinated.
01:27The report identifies the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas as the orchestrator of the attack,
01:32but names several other armed groups that committed war crimes on October 7th, including
01:36Islamic Jihad.
01:39The reality is that it really wasn't civilians from Gaza who perpetrated the worst abuses.
01:44That was a claim made very early on by Hamas to distance itself from the events, and by
01:49Israel to justify its retaliation operation.
01:52In its report, Human Rights Watch says that over 815 civilians were killed in the incursion,
01:58while according to Israeli data, 1,195 people lost their lives.
02:05Of the 251 people abducted that day, 116 are still being held in Gaza, 42 of whom have
02:11been declared dead by the Israeli army.
02:14Israel's reprisal, airstrikes and grand invasion in Gaza has so far killed more than 38,700
02:20people.
02:21Most were civilians, including some 14,000 children.
02:25Hamas has reacted angrily to the report, demanding that the NGO withdraw it and apologize.
02:33Catherine Cater-Clifford with that report.
02:34Well, we saw her quoted in Catherine's report.
02:37Let's bring in Belka Zwiller, who's a senior crisis and conflict researcher at Human Rights
02:41Watch, joining us live from Kiev in Ukraine.
02:44Belka, thanks for joining us.
02:46Disturbing revelations, and clearly from what you were just quoted as saying, it seems that
02:51in some way, both sides are trying to make their own agenda out of this in terms of trying
02:57to mask what was really happening.
02:59Absolutely.
03:01This desire really within hours of the attacks taking place and within hours of the world
03:07starting to see that atrocities were taking place, including atrocities against civilians,
03:13there was this desire both by Hamas and by Israel to blame civilians from Gaza.
03:19That kind of rhetoric blurring the line between combatants and civilians is really so incredibly
03:24harmful in the context of this conflict.
03:26It was essential in our research to make very clear that what we were seeing was that it
03:32was armed fighters in uniforms who committed the worst atrocities and who came in in a
03:37highly organized fashion.
03:39It really wasn't civilians from Gaza who should be blamed for what happened on October 7th.
03:43So can I just ask, are you actually saying that it is Hamas that has kind of brought
03:48this on basically innocent Palestinian civilians?
03:54Listen, I think the claim that civilians were to blame is again one that suits Hamas because
04:03it allows Hamas to distance its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades, from the serious atrocities.
04:11Things like numerous war crimes, the indiscriminate and deliberate targeting of civilians and
04:17civilian objects, the killing of people in custody, hostage-taking, looting, pillage
04:23and crimes of sexual and gender-based violence.
04:26Of course, Hamas wants to distance its forces from having participated in those acts.
04:31But again, the evidence couldn't be clearer.
04:33These atrocities were committed by fighters who were well-trained and planned.
04:37And it's not just the Qassam Brigades of Hamas.
04:40We identified four other armed groups that were intimately involved in carrying out these
04:45abuses as well.
04:46And Belkis, the nature of what happened, there has been claim, counter-claim, there's been
04:50claims of fake news, claims that it's been exaggerated in order to gain a certain effect
04:55and a certain means and aim.
04:59In what you've found, was it exaggerated or were the atrocities as bad as people fear
05:05and as people have reported?
05:09You know, in the first days after October 7th, there was a lot of chaos.
05:14There was a lack of clear information coming out.
05:17Certain allegations were made that proved false, ultimately.
05:20Some of the groups that made those allegations have retracted them themselves and have acknowledged
05:24that at the time they presumed that they were seeing things that didn't actually happen.
05:29That being said, I do think, you know, instantly within the wake of October 7th, you had people
05:35also diminishing what happened, arguing that clearly what happened that day wasn't so bad,
05:42that civilians weren't targeted to the extent that they really were.
05:46And it was really in this space of miss and disinformation that Human Rights Watch felt
05:52it was so important that we produce a fact-based report from us, an independent and objective
05:59human rights organization, and an organization that really operates within the confines of
06:03a clear mandate, documenting violations of human rights and humanitarian law.
06:08We don't look at politics.
06:09We don't look at justifications for ongoing armed conflict.
06:13What we look at is how conflict is being fought, and how warring parties are or are not abiding
06:19by their obligations vis-a-vis civilians.
06:22Indeed, Belkis, and it is very clear from what has been found that there were appalling
06:26atrocities committed, which is horrific.
06:29And clearly getting to the truth of the matter is all important.
06:33Truth and reconciliation tend to go together.
06:35No sign of reconciliation on the horizon at all, sadly.
06:38And I'm wondering whether there'll be a similar kind of investigation by Human Rights Watch
06:42over Israel's behavior since October the 7th, 38,000 Palestinians dead and still continuing.
06:49Absolutely.
06:50You know, if you look at our website, we've published over 120 pieces of research, shorter
06:57and longer, about the ongoing situation in Gaza over the last nine months.
07:01We are dedicated to continuing that research.
07:04Of course, one difficulty is that we do not have access to Gaza.
07:07We have asked the Israeli authorities and the Egyptian authorities to let us enter Gaza
07:11to do our documentation in an objective manner, but we haven't been given that access.
07:17Instead, we've traveled to North Sinai to interview people from Gaza who were evacuated
07:22for medical reasons.
07:23And just two weeks ago, a colleague and I, we traveled to Doha in Qatar again, amongst
07:28other things, to interview people who had just come out of Gaza and were getting medical
07:32treatment there.
07:34And all of those initiatives are really aimed at the same thing that this report was, documenting
07:40the truth, documenting the plight of civilians in this ongoing conflict.
07:44Belka Sawilla, it's a pleasure speaking to you.
07:46Your work is essential.
07:47I wish you every strength in continuing your search for the truth about matters as they
07:51are unfolding in front of our very eyes.
07:53Belka Sawilla of Human Rights Watch, thank you very much indeed for joining us.