Hardline diaspora affairs minister Amichai Chikli says he doesn't care about criticism of Israeli military goals, including an IDF spokesman's recent statements that "Hamas is an idea" and can't be militarily defeated. In an interview with DW's Tim Sebastian he states: 'It's our moral obligation to eliminate Hamas, whatever it takes.'
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00:00On Conflict Zone this week, our first interview with a serving Israeli minister since the Gaza war began,
00:06raising key questions on his government's tactics, human rights in its prisons,
00:11and US accusations that the country has been bombing Gaza indiscriminately.
00:16Amichai Chikli is Diaspora Affairs Minister,
00:19but he wants nothing to do with Jews who join anti-war protests abroad.
00:24We ask why he's accusing Spain's Prime Minister of anti-Semitism.
00:29Once again, talks on a hostage release get underway.
00:32But what are the chances of a breakthrough?
00:35The hostage families warn the government they won't let it torpedo another deal.
00:42Amichai Chikli, welcome to Conflict Zone.
00:46Hello.
00:47It seems that talks will again take place this week over a possible deal on releasing Israeli hostages
00:54and pausing the fighting in Gaza.
00:56What are the chances of a breakthrough this time, do you think?
01:00It's hard to tell until the last minute. It's hard to tell.
01:03I hope we will reach an agreement.
01:05Obviously, one of the main purposes of the war, one of the main goals is to bring back our hostages,
01:12120 hostages that are still kept in Hamas dungeons and tunnels.
01:18And I hope that we can reach an agreement.
01:21Apparently, your prime minister suddenly threw in a new list of non-negotiable demands
01:26just before the talks are due to start again.
01:28The Times of Israel said his move was met with anger by Israeli security officials and mediators
01:35who not for the first time accused him of trying to sabotage the deal.
01:39Is that what he was trying to do? But the last minute spoke and they will.
01:43No, I think that it's hilarious to say that the prime minister is fully committed
01:50to bringing back the hostages that are kept by the monsters of Hamas.
01:55We have set goals for this war and we are not going to withdraw.
02:00The goal is to defeat Hamas, is to annihilate his military capabilities,
02:07his political and government capabilities.
02:11And these are the goals that we've set and we're not going to move backwards from these goals.
02:19In order to reach these goals, the army himself, not the prime minister,
02:23the army themselves knows that we need to have a military control over the Philadelphia corridor,
02:32the Tsarim corridor, the perimeter, to allow the IDF forces full scale of movement
02:40all across Gaza Strip. And these are the demands that we cannot give up these elements.
02:53We can have a ceasefire and we can release terrorists, unfortunately,
02:59but we will do it in order to bring back our people.
03:01But we won't give up the conditions to complete the mission of annihilating Hamas,
03:07its militant and its leaders.
03:09The army says that you're not going to achieve your aims.
03:13Chief IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari said in an interview last month on Channel 13,
03:19whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is mistaken.
03:23Making Hamas disappear, it's simply throwing sand in the eyes of the public.
03:28Hamas is an idea. Hamas is a political party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people.
03:33Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood. It's been around for many, many years.
03:38Judging by the results so far, he's right, isn't he?
03:42First and foremost, Hamas is suffering heavily.
03:45It's lost one third of its terrorists, many of its commanders.
03:50It lost control over the Philadelphia corridor with dozens of tunnels.
03:57There are the main tunnels from these tunnels.
04:02He had weapons coming, explosives coming from the Sinai Peninsula.
04:09Hamas is an idea. It's not something that I care about.
04:15Just like Nazi Germany, that was also an idea. It was an ideological movement.
04:21You don't care what your own military spokesman says?
04:24I'm saying that we're not speaking about eliminating the idea of Hamas.
04:29We are speaking about eliminating the terrorist of Hamas.
04:33That's not going so well either, is it? That's not going so well either.
04:38The weapons factories of Hamas is military capabilities.
04:43This is what we need to eliminate.
04:45The idea, maybe there will be more people who believe in the idea of Hamas.
04:50I don't care as long as Hamas as a military organization does not exist.
04:56You talked about your aims of the war, but as far as the people are concerned,
05:03two thirds of the Israeli public say returning the hostages is more important than continuing the war.
05:10You are losing the faith of the hostage families.
05:14In a statement over the weekend, they said the people of Israel voted time and again
05:19in every poll that it's in favor of a full deal for the return of all the hostages.
05:24We will not allow government ministers to torpedo a deal once again.
05:29And they threatened that if the government fails to accept a deal this time,
05:32millions will take to the streets.
05:34They're not impressed with the government's performance, are they?
05:38Well, first, there are several groups of families of the hostages
05:42and also victims of the warriors who fell during the war with different voices.
05:48Some of them think that we need to go into a deal no matter what are the conditions.
05:53And obviously, we can have disagreement.
05:57And our goal is first and foremost to win this war.
06:02It's not going to be easy.
06:04We made a significant progress.
06:06As I've said, one third of the terrorists of Hamas were eliminated.
06:11Most of his military factoring capabilities, missiles capabilities,
06:17launching capabilities, he lost most of these capabilities.
06:21We can have a ceasefire and we can release some terrorists,
06:25but we cannot stop the war and we cannot allow Hamas to survive.
06:31While the war has gone on, Mr. Chickly, Israel's reputation has suffered greatly around the world.
06:37For now, a majority of Americans, your closest allies,
06:40disapprove of Israel's conduct of the war, 55 percent against.
06:44And so does their government.
06:46Despite all your protestations about protecting civilians,
06:49President Biden has accused Israel point blank of indiscriminate bombing,
06:54one of the most serious charges that can be leveled in wartime.
06:58He is in a position to know what he's talking about, isn't he?
07:01You have the closest possible intelligence connections between Israel and the U.S.
07:07First, I'm not aware of any other Western army who calls for civilians to evacuate
07:13the areas where attacks are going to be launched, air attacks,
07:18war raids against Hamas positions.
07:24The IDF is extremely careful in regarding to civilian lives.
07:33I think more than any other Western army.
07:36About the PR, I've seen the polls, many polls,
07:41Harvard Harris and others.
07:43Most of the population in America still support Israel.
07:47Yes, we do have a challenge with the younger generation,
07:50and we will need to do a lot of work of education and public diplomacy
07:57to have a better situation in terms of public diplomacy.
08:00But the main mission now is to win this war against jihadist,
08:08genocidic organizations who threatened to commit the crimes of October 7,
08:14raping, murdering, beheading, mutilating bodies again and again and again.
08:19So it's not that we have a choice here.
08:22And we did not choose this war.
08:27It wasn't our initiative.
08:29We were attacked, and this is a very natural response to these attacks.
08:35Under what circumstances is indiscriminate bombing not a war crime in your view?
08:42What do you mean indiscriminate bombing?
08:45This is what President Biden accused you of, indiscriminate bombing.
08:49He accused, but that's not the reality.
08:51The bombings are against Hamas targets.
08:56It's against Hamas targets, yes.
08:58He doesn't know what he's talking about.
09:00He's wrong.
09:01He's wrong.
09:03Mr. Shickley, you don't use 2,000-pound bombs if you want to go easy on civilians, do you?
09:09Which is why America has suspended some of those shipments to you.
09:13If you call the civilians to evacuate the territory before,
09:18and then you use heavy bombs because, in some cases,
09:23entire streets are being trapped by bombs of Hamas,
09:29I think it's absolutely legitimate.
09:33So you part company with the Americans on that.
09:36Biden himself said in May,
09:38civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs,
09:43the 2,000-pound bombs, and other ways in which they, meaning Israel,
09:47goes after population centers.
09:50The State Department also flagged its concerns,
09:53saying it was reasonable to assess that Israel had at times used American weapons
09:58in a manner inconsistent with international law.
10:02That's quite an accusation.
10:04Do you have other opinions?
10:08How can you target Hamas terrorists who are in tunnels at 20 meters, 50 meters,
10:16sometimes 70 meters beneath the ground?
10:18How can you do it without heavy bombing?
10:20You can tell me.
10:22How will you do it?
10:24Do you feel nothing for the huge number of casualties that you've caused?
10:2838,000 dead, more than 80,000 injured, more than a million people displaced,
10:32thousands of Palestinian children dead?
10:35And who chose this war, Mr. Tim?
10:39No, I'm asking about how you feel about the Palestinians.
10:42No, but before, we didn't choose this war.
10:44This is life.
10:46Whether it's Israeli life or Palestinian life, it's still life.
10:49It's a war.
10:50You feel nothing for the loss of their lives?
10:53Hamas opened war.
10:55We didn't choose this war.
10:57What do you want us to do?
10:58You say, okay, you can get away with burning entire families alive,
11:05raping, murdering innocent people in a party, destroying entire villages.
11:12What do you expect us to do exactly?
11:15Well, President Biden expects you to listen to him.
11:19I'm not asking about President Biden.
11:21I'm asking you as a reasonable human being.
11:24I'm not here to answer questions.
11:26I'm here to ask them and to get your views.
11:28But Biden has repeated over and over again.
11:30I think it's our moral obligation to eliminate Hamas, whatever it takes.
11:38I think we are making huge efforts to prevent the killing of civilians.
11:45And that is despite the fact that hundreds of civilians participated in the murder,
11:53robbering, raping of innocent Israelis on October 7th.
11:58So, this is not about revenge.
12:00This is about the future.
12:02We must secure our villages and our people.
12:07What does Hamas operate from?
12:09Online infrastructures, schools, hospitals.
12:14He is operating from the civil population.
12:18So, it makes it very, very difficult to create a total separation
12:25and to have a situation in which there are no civilian casualties.
12:31This is the war.
12:32It's not a war against an army.
12:34It's a war against a terror organization who uses the population as a human shield.
12:41And you know it.
12:43You don't take kindly to criticism, do you?
12:47You said you're not interested in building alliances,
12:50even with diaspora Jews who take part in international protests
12:54against your military campaign in Gaza.
12:56Why is that?
12:57Are all Jews supposed to think the same way you do about this war?
13:00No, we can have disagreement.
13:02But if you are going with anti-Semite Hamas supporters, BDS supporters,
13:07so that's a problem.
13:09That's a problem, yeah.
13:10You called Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, an anti-Semite
13:14for saying he had genuine doubts about whether Israel was abiding by international law.
13:19Is President Biden also an anti-Semite for expressing his doubts?
13:24No, he isn't.
13:25So, why is Pedro Sanchez then?
13:27Not at all.
13:28Do you compare Sanchez to Biden?
13:32Both have concerns.
13:34Do you compare?
13:35Both have concerns.
13:36They are very, very different.
13:37You think you can get away with saying this about Sanchez but not about Biden.
13:41Is that it?
13:42Sanchez is a communist who thinks we need to reward the Palestinian with a state
13:51because of the events of October 7.
13:53Sanchez came to Rafah Corridor at the day of the hostage agreement to condemn Israel
14:00and took a PR round on the back of the hostages in the most cynical way possible.
14:08So, about Sanchez, really, I stand behind my words.
14:14That's an anti-Semite, an irresponsible, is not a serious leader.
14:21And Biden never said such things.
14:24He had criticism and that's okay.
14:26And we can have disagreement.
14:28But I would not compare Biden to Sanchez.
14:31It's like to compare Biden to Melenchon or Jeremy Corbyn.
14:36Do you think your comments about Sanchez are helpful to your country,
14:39insulting and ridiculing important people?
14:42I think it's helpful to say the truth.
14:46And when I see anti-Semites like Corbyn or Galloway or Melenchon
14:52who refuse to recognize Hamas as a terror organization,
14:56who refuse to condemn the massacre of October 7,
15:01we have nothing to debate with these kind of leaders.
15:04These kind of leaders are aligned with Hamas, terror organizations,
15:08BFLP, Palestinian Authority.
15:12You complain about anti-Semitism in the West,
15:15but the protests against your action in Gaza can't all be explained away
15:19as anti-Semitism, can they?
15:22I never said that any demonstration against Israel is an anti-Semite act.
15:27They can be criticizing of the state of Israel just like any other nation.
15:32And that's perfectly okay.
15:34But when you are blocking the entrance of Jewish students
15:39to go into the campus because they are Jewish,
15:43that's anti-Semitism.
15:45And when you are calling from the river to the sea,
15:48Palestine will be free, meaning there will be no Israel,
15:52meaning ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Jewish people,
15:56then you're an anti-Semite.
15:58So this is anti-Semitism.
16:00And saying that please stop the bombing in Gaza or something like that,
16:08that is something else.
16:10And we can draw a line in between the two.
16:16As this war has gone on, you and other leading politicians,
16:20as we've seen, continue to claim the moral high ground.
16:23Your own human rights organizations have a very different view.
16:27Your Public Committee Against Torture slammed your army's treatment
16:31of detainees at its Ste-tay-ment prison in the Negev
16:35and at other facilities.
16:37And an Israeli doctor who was stationed there
16:39confirmed a collection of reports citing appalling treatment
16:42of detainees, much of it amounting to torture.
16:44Just this week, he said in April, two prisoners had their legs amputated
16:48due to handcuff injuries, which unfortunately is a routine event.
16:52We're all complicit, he said, in breaking the law.
16:55Do you care?
16:57So Israel is a vibrant democracy.
16:59As you can see, there are human rights activists,
17:02there are discussions in the Supreme Court.
17:05The Ste-tay-ment base is now closed because of complaints
17:09of these organizations.
17:11And this is the state of Israel.
17:13Have you heard any criticism coming from human rights activists
17:17about the conditions in which the hostages are being held?
17:21Have you heard something from the Red Cross about the conditions
17:25of the hostages or the killing of hostages inside Shifa Hospital
17:32or in the Hamas tunnels?
17:34Have you heard anything like that coming from Gaza?
17:39How much did we hear about the conditions in Ste-tay-ment
17:43and other prison facilities since there was no public authorization
17:47for people held there until the 45th day,
17:50and the Red Cross wasn't allowed to visit?
17:52Families were not informed of where their relatives were.
17:56These were forced disappearances, weren't they?
17:59Ste-tay-ment is being closed because of complaints
18:02that the conditions were not good enough.
18:06I don't think we need to give the Hamas terrorist deluxe treatment.
18:13They need to receive the minimum that we owe by international laws,
18:19and we stand by the international laws.
18:23And, well, if there's any situation in which there is a problem,
18:29then we have our legal system to make sure we stand
18:34according to international law.
18:36You don't like human rights organizations, do you?
18:39You have in the past dismissed them as anti-Semitic
18:42and anti-Zionist, whose purpose, you claim,
18:45is to undermine Israel's legitimacy and spill the blood
18:48of its soldiers and citizens.
18:50You actually said that at a conference two years ago.
18:53Are you really so scared of their criticism
18:56that you have to kind of construct this dark, malign character
18:59to delegitimize them?
19:01When you're saying human rights organizations,
19:03some of them have a clear political role,
19:06pro-Palestinian organizations.
19:08For instance, the Shah, for instance,
19:11B'Tselem breaking the silence.
19:13These organizations are heavily funded by European states.
19:21They're part of that democracy that you're so proud of.
19:25Well, I am proud that these organizations can operate,
19:29but some of these organizations are hostile.
19:31Some of these organizations will fight for the Nuhva prisoners,
19:36but they won't fight for the rights of their own people.
19:40So, therefore, I also have criticism to some of them,
19:43and I distinguish some of them operates in a fair way
19:49and not just regarding to the rights of terrorists,
19:56but those who are doing everything to protect terrorists
19:59but remain silent when our people are being butchered,
20:04massacred, raped.
20:06These organizations, and I mentioned some of them,
20:08breaking the silence.
20:10B'Tselem, I think these organizations are political organizations,
20:16and they are operating against the state of Israel.
20:20Mr. Chikli, let's look at the day after the war ends,
20:23whenever that is going to be.
20:25Secretary of State Antony Blinken says there has to be
20:28a clear political plan, a clear humanitarian plan,
20:32in order to ensure Hamas does not in any shape or form
20:35resume control of Gaza.
20:37You're never going to agree to Palestinian statehood
20:40next to you, are you?
20:43First of all, if you examine the situation in Jordan
20:50in terms of the population, most of the populations
20:55are Palestinians, around 70%.
20:59It was established on British Mandatory Palestine.
21:06And I'm not sure that you can say that Palestinians
21:11don't have rights there.
21:12So they have rights, the Queen is even Palestinian,
21:14and we have a peace agreement with Jordan.
21:16I think we can afford autonomy in Judea and Samaria.
21:21I think we can afford autonomy in Gaza.
21:24We cannot afford a full state with an army.
21:27I think this is the biggest lessons of October 7th.
21:31Actually, de facto, the Palestinians had a state,
21:36a small state in Gaza.
21:38We evacuated 21 villages that we have destroyed,
21:43our own villages.
21:45We evacuated 10,000 people from their homes
21:48in order to bring peace, in order to allow the Palestinians
21:52to govern Gaza.
21:55And you sat outside and guarded everything that went in
21:59and everybody that came out.
22:01You were like prison guards outside the prison
22:04instead of in it.
22:05Prison? Why prison?
22:07Because nobody could leave without your say-so.
22:10Nobody could enter without your say-so.
22:12They have a border with Egypt.
22:15An Arab state.
22:17With whom you cooperated closely.
22:19With Egypt.
22:20Yes.
22:21With Egypt. They have a border with Egypt.
22:22They can go.
22:23Thousands of them were able to walk in Israel
22:27and to bring salaries back home.
22:30There was trade with Gaza.
22:33And we received October 7th.
22:35So what is the lesson?
22:37Do you want us to evacuate more villages?
22:40The lesson is more from the fact that you facilitated
22:42the funding of Hamas in order to divide and conquer
22:46the Palestinians, didn't you?
22:48To prevent them from speaking with a single voice,
22:51knowing that Hamas and the Palestinian authorities
22:54would be at each other's throats.
22:56You promoted that.
22:57It didn't go so well, did it?
22:58They chose, the Palestinians in Gaza chose,
23:01in elections, Hamas.
23:03And you chose to have them financed.
23:05They chose Hamas.
23:07They chose Hamas.
23:08They chose, according to the Shkaki Research Institute,
23:11to support, even now to support,
23:14October 7th massacre.
23:16They do not regret the massacre of October 7th.
23:19They are responsible human beings.
23:22They could have chosen otherwise.
23:25They could have turned Gaza into Singapore.
23:29They could have invested not in manufacturing missiles
23:33and 900 kilometers of tunnels beneath the ground,
23:37but to build towers, hotels, factories.
23:44They didn't do it.
23:46They wanted a state on the same land that you want a state.
23:51And as your first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion,
23:54100 years ago, there is no solution to this.
23:59Both of you want the same land.
24:01Both of you want to have it as states.
24:04There is no solution to this.
24:05The last 100 years have proved David Ben-Gurion right,
24:08haven't they?
24:09I think that what we've seen is that Israel
24:14is a culture of life, of prosperity,
24:21of no hatred towards the Palestinians.
24:25You can go into every single kindergarten in Israel
24:29and ask the kids about the song,
24:33I was born for peace to arrive.
24:35In Hebrew,
24:36Ani nolati la shalom shirak yagia.
24:39And you can go to any kindergarten in Gaza
24:43and ask the kids in Gaza,
24:46what have they taught about the Jews,
24:48about the state of Israel?
24:50To eliminate them.
24:52Go, attack.
24:55This is the Palestinian education.
24:58And by the way, it's not just Hamas,
25:00but also the PLO.
25:02This is the big difference between Palestinians and Israelis.
25:06We cherish life.
25:08We cherish life.
25:09They cherish death.
25:11That's a fanatic ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood,
25:15of al-Qaradawi, of Hassan al-Banna,
25:18of the Mufti Amin al-Husseini.
25:21A genocidal ideology, racist ideology,
25:26antisemite ideology.
25:28That is the reality.
25:30They can choose to create in Gaza
25:33a state, a flourishing state,
25:37with an economy.
25:39They didn't do it.
25:40All right, Mr. Chikli, we've run out of time.
25:43Thanks very much for being on Conflict Zone.
25:45Thank you.