Journalist Zain Khan podcast with Pakistan Airforce Chief (R) Kaleem Saadat on Operation Swift Retort
Journalist Zain Khan podcast with Pakistan Airforce Chief (R) Kaleem Saadat on Operation Swift Retort for Tactical Talk.
Chief of Air Staff (R) Kaleem Saadat & Journalist TV Host Zain Khan podcast on the limited war battled out in aerial skirmishes between Pakistan & India after the Pulwama attack and Balakot incident on Tactical Talk.
Chief of Air Staff (R) Kaleem Saadat & Journalist TV Host Zain Khan podcast on the limited war battled out in aerial skirmishes between Pakistan & India after the Pulwama attack and Balakot incident on Tactical Talk.
Transcript
00:00Welcome to Tactical Talk, this is Zain Khan.
00:20Today the topic of our show is Balakot and beyond, Pakistan and India's limited war.
00:27After the Pulwama attack, both nuclear armed rivals, Pakistan and India, were on the verge
00:33of a full-scale war.
00:35They battled it out in skirmishes which some observers and think tanks labeled and termed
00:42it as a limited war, but in the age of hybrid warfare and information warfare, many are
00:47still confused as to what really happened.
00:51We were lucky enough to have one of Pakistan's previous air chiefs, Kaleem Sadat, he is also
00:55heading a leading think tank in Islamabad, Centre for Aerospace and Security Studies, CASS.
01:05To give us analysis about what really happened and what could have happened if things got
01:10out of control, let's head to our face-to-face interview with our senior guest.
01:18Thank you so much sir for being in our show, it was a pleasure having you and thank you
01:21so much for taking out the time to discuss this very important topic.
01:26Thank you for taking the trouble of coming from Lahore all the way, it's my pleasure
01:31to have you here.
01:32Sir, the pleasure is all ours.
01:34Sir, I wanted to get to the first question and ask you, you know since the recent escalation
01:40between Pakistan and India after the Pulwama attacks, they were mainly, the skirmish and
01:47the escalation that happened was mainly on the aerial domain.
01:51Why do you think that is so?
01:55It is because of the importance of air power.
02:01It is a weapon of first resort, whenever any tension takes place, the air forces are deployed
02:07first because they can act with great deal of rapidity and they can go long distances
02:14to attack their targets, so they have exercised a lot of flexibility.
02:18It is because of these traits of the air power that often they are called upon right in the
02:23beginning of any conflict to play their role.
02:26So that is why it started with the air power.
02:28Sir, let's get to the next question.
02:32What is India's grand design for the region?
02:38India's grand design is of course, it is on its way to becoming a superpower.
02:44In the South Asia region, it has already been a dominant power.
02:48It has been able to dominate all other countries in the region except Pakistan.
02:54So that is something very, something unacceptable for the Indians.
03:00So they want to, you know, suppress Pakistan.
03:04They want to impress upon Pakistan that whatever India says goes.
03:09Unfortunately, whatever India says is contrary to our national interest.
03:14So obviously we will not be able to accept that.
03:18So they have tried all kinds of things.
03:20They have tried to tell their public that they will bring into play doctrines that will
03:27be, with which they will be able to teach Pakistan a lesson and they will be able to
03:32harm Pakistan.
03:34In that, you have seen the advent of Cold Star Doctrine and now they were reorganizing
03:41their army into independent brigade groups that would be able to mobilize rapidly and,
03:49you know, travel across land and occupy territory rapidly, etc.
03:54So these are attempts at, you know, doing things in a manner that they are able to capture
04:03sizable Pakistani territory before the United Nations and other world powers come into,
04:09in an effort to mediate between the two warring parties.
04:13So this is their grand design.
04:17And they have not been able to do it yet.
04:24But their aspirations are the same that, you know, we can do whatever we want to and Pakistan
04:30will not have a response.
04:33It's very clear that Pakistan will have a response.
04:37Pakistan has considerable capability to cause damage.
04:40If India has a larger economy as compared to Pakistan, it is also liable to suffer greater
04:48dislocation, economic dislocation as a result of Pakistani action.
04:52So that is a lesson that must not be lost on the Indians.
04:57There have been various costs calculated about how much a war, how much a conventional war
05:04will cost India and the cost estimates have gone as high as half a trillion dollars, you
05:12know, the type of damage that it can do.
05:15So this is not, there is not going to be a free walkover for India.
05:21This India must understand.
05:23I'm sure they're thinking, not their hawks, but their doves do understand this.
05:29And some of the thinking leaders that you understand, they admit this that Pakistan
05:36cannot be defeated militarily, you know.
05:39So that is why they indulge in hybrid war, you know.
05:42After 27th of February, what you're seeing is that the subversive actions are increasing.
05:50The terrorist acts, what happened to Hazaras, you know, what happened to the Levis, what
05:55happened to the Khasadas, etc.
05:57All this activity has picked up after, because they suffered a setback in Kashmir.
06:05They could not respond in the same domain, you know.
06:08So they brought into play what they call cross-domain deterrence, that in the hybrid
06:13domain they are trying to cover up what they lost on the conventional domain.
06:19So this is, of course, Pakistan is aware of it and Pakistan will have to do everything
06:27in its power to defeat this design.
06:30Sir, you know, many experts in the West and also in Pakistan believe that the recent Pulwama
06:36attacks were basically, they call it electioneering by the Indians.
06:41Is that the case, that, you know, the elections are near and this false flag operation happened
06:46to help a certain political party in India to win the elections, or do you think that
06:52this is basically the evolution of India's cold start doctrine?
06:59No, I think it was basically the objectives were political.
07:05Before the elections, Mr. Modi's poll numbers were in low 30s and after the Pulwama action
07:16and after what they did on 26th of February and subsequently it went up to 60-62%.
07:23So obviously these were the objectives that they were wishing to achieve and they did
07:28achieve those.
07:29However, political objectives were achieved, the military ones not necessarily so.
07:37And this has been a constant, you know, because the government, what Mr. Modi promised to
07:42the public in terms of achievement, in terms of employment, in terms of further improvement
07:47in their life style and all, like in sanitation and other basic facilities that they were
07:54to provide to the poor people or lifting people out of poverty, he failed on those fronts.
08:03And the only way that he could get re-elected was by playing with the sentiments of people.
08:09And those sentiments are best done when they want to show their dislike for Pakistan.
08:18Because Pakistan is always an issue in Indian elections, unlike the opposite.
08:23In Pakistani elections nobody talks about India.
08:27But there every prospective candidate makes sure that he appears to be tough on Pakistan
08:34and he also promises that once elected, he or she will teach a lesson to Pakistan.
08:41So it is that larger scheme and a constant scheme that has been played out every time.
08:46And this time because Mr. Modi was in deeper trouble than the other predecessors, so he
08:54went about it in a very overt manner.
08:57And that's what we saw.
09:00Sir, I want to get into the details of this whole event and the limited war that some
09:05experts say that Pakistan and India had after the Bulwama.
09:11India claimed that it striked a terror camp in Pakistan, supposedly, that killed around
09:18300 people.
09:19Their home minister came up and made that claim as well, backed it up.
09:24But then all of a sudden their air chief came and he said that, you know, we don't
09:29count any casualties, we don't have that data.
09:34What is your opinion?
09:35Why is there so much paradoxical statements coming out from the Indians?
09:41What's your analysis?
09:43Actually, what happened was that they did not manage to strike the intended targets.
09:52The bombs fell from that Madrasa that they were trying to attack about 300 to 500 yards
09:59on either side and even ahead of it.
10:02And the reason for that is that these weapons were launched from very high altitude, perhaps,
10:07and because of strong winds, they could not find their target.
10:11But for the consumption of the public, they had to make claims and they made these false
10:16claims.
10:17But subsequently, when the public did not believe them and they had to come out and
10:23address a press conference, a joint armed forces press conference, the people, the press
10:28that is media, wanted proofs or evidence that, you know, this Madrasa was attacked or this
10:35militant hideout was attacked and that so many people had been killed.
10:41So in response to that, the air chief had to then, you know, retrace his steps and say
10:48that we are not into the business of counting bodies, it's for the government to count bodies.
10:54I mean, how can the government also count bodies across the border?
10:57The fact of the matter is that that structure stood before 26 February and it is still standing.
11:04And all they managed to do was to create some craters on the mountainside and maybe uproot
11:10a couple of trees and that's all they were able to manage.
11:14So it is because of their failure that they had to retrace their steps and also indulge
11:24in falsehood to hide their feelings.
11:28Sir, after the so-called Indian strikes on Pakistan, so-called, Indians started to gloat,
11:36they started to, you know, their media went really berserk.
11:41But the very next day, the Pakistan Air Force, it made its own strikes and it also downed,
11:51you know, Indian jets and etc.
11:56Do you think, you know, this will help deter future conflict and, you know, with India?
12:05And will the Indians stop underestimating the Pakistan Air Force?
12:12I think so.
12:14It is evident that they suffered a setback both on the 27th and on the 26th.
12:21On 27th, because they failed to engage the target that they intended to.
12:27And on 27th morning, they lost two fighters and one of their pilots was captured.
12:35And the PF also demonstrated that it had the ability to attack any target that it
12:41wanted to.
12:43What ultimately transpired was that intentionally, at the last moment, the weapons were made
12:49to shift a little bit so that we don't cause damage onto military targets and prevent escalation.
12:56So we, rather the Pakistan Air Force, did an excellent job.
13:05And of course, it is because of many factors that we could talk about later.
13:11Sir, we've seen in history, how does the Pakistan Air Force manage to always deter and compete
13:20with a bigger adversary?
13:24Tell us more about what's in their training.
13:27What's the key behind their success?
13:31I think historically, Pakistan Air Force has always enjoyed a technological edge over India.
13:40Earlier on, it was American weaponry and American aeroplanes in the hands of Pakistani pilots,
13:49while Indians had Russian weaponry and Russian aeroplanes.
13:55Also, the American tactics and other things, training is much more sophisticated and much
14:05more effective than it has turned out to be in the case of the Russians.
14:10Whether it is engagement here or it is engagements in the Middle East, when all the Arab countries
14:16were being supported by the Russians and Israel was being supported by America, Israel indeed
14:23had an upper hand.
14:25So it's always, like in the 1965 war, we had air-to-air missiles.
14:31Indians did not have those or if they had on some, they were not as effective.
14:37We had the Starfighter and there was no comparable aeroplane in the Indian inventory.
14:41So whenever the Starfighter F-104 appeared on the horizon, the Indians ran helter-skelter.
14:49In the 71 war, we had the Mirages, which had been inducted about 3-4 years back in 1967
14:57and so that gave us a strike capability.
15:01So despite numerical inferiority, there was this slight technological edge which makes
15:10a difference.
15:11Even in today's, this thing, Indian Air Force is not weak in terms of their equipment, in
15:18terms of their strength, number of aeroplanes, etc. and the infrastructure layout, the bases
15:25that are lined up across the border, yet psychologically I think they feel at a disadvantage because
15:35In the end, both their Air Force and their Prime Minister lamented that if we had the
15:42Rafale, it would not have happened to us.
15:45So there is perhaps a little bit of psychological pressure.
15:48Earlier on it was the F-104, these days it is the F-16 and the weaponry that it carries
15:55that has a bearing on their morale, etc. and it is because of that that perhaps we came
16:02out much better than them.
16:05Sir, I have recently been seeing that the Indian Air Force's planes have been crashing
16:13their fighter jets either while they are training or either by Pakistan's Air Force deterring
16:19their aggression.
16:21Their planes have been basically crashing.
16:25Now they are eyeing, as you have said, the Rafales.
16:30In your opinion, can you give us a little more information about JF-17 Thunder's Block
16:373 and tell us, will it give a good competition to the Rafales, the Block 3?
16:45I am not privy to the total capability of the Block 3 right now.
16:52But historically, if we look at it, that every time any side, any of the protagonist
17:00has enhanced its capability, the other party has had to improve their capabilities also.
17:07That has been going on.
17:08So if India inducts the Rafale or the S-400, Pakistan will have to do back borrow or steal
17:17and get the equipment that will negate or neutralize these capabilities.
17:22Sadly, all these events like these, these conflicts or semi-conflicts or non-conflicts,
17:32they do nothing but accelerate the arms race in the region.
17:37In a region where there is so much of poverty, in a region where there is so much of deprivation,
17:43it is madness to keep spending on arms, etc.
17:47And if you look at it critically, even in the present case, who do you think are the
17:54gainers in this whole skirmish?
17:56It is the arm manufacturers, you know, on both sides.
18:00India will go to France, it will go to the USA, Pakistan per force will have to go to
18:04China, you know.
18:06So in the end, the arms manufacturers will gain.
18:10They will get Rafale, we will get the J-10 or maybe something else, whatever the Chinese
18:15latest equipment is, to keep up with India.
18:20So that is why it is important that Mr. Modi and, you know, his cabinet understand that
18:26what are the economic implications of this arms race.
18:30Just because you want to teach Pakistan a lesson within inverted commas, you go to these
18:36lengths to deprive your people of, you know, the basic necessities of life, sanitation,
18:42clean drinking water, enough food, etc.
18:47Imagine that the Rafale that they have signed is going to cost them 1300 crore Indian rupees
18:55per aeroplane.
18:57Can you imagine that with 1300 crore rupees, how many villages, how many towns, how many
19:04cities and the facilities that can be turned around over there?
19:08And just because they want to have a slight edge over the Pakistan Air Force to browbeat
19:15them, to scare them and all, they go to these lengths.
19:19In my judgment, this is not what the region needs.
19:22Neither Pakistan nor India, we don't need more sophisticated, more capable, more costly
19:28weapons.
19:30We need to live in peace, you know, and learn to coexist as a good neighbor and not make
19:38efforts to undermine the other or to weaken the other or to destroy the other.
19:45So it is sad, actually.
19:47Sir, obviously, as you've said, that the region does not need any escalation.
19:52I would further want to ask you, after the Pakistan Air Force obviously internationally
19:58embarrassed the Indian Air Force, we've heard our government also telling us and through
20:06different think tanks that India basically deployed their BrahMos missiles.
20:12If that was the case, if, God forbid, an attack happened on Pakistan, what is your analysis?
20:22What would Pakistan's response be?
20:25How would it all put off?
20:28Actually, the launch of BrahMos or any other surface-to-surface weapon, longer range, would
20:38have been a very critical escalation.
20:43It would have been madness to escalate it to that level.
20:46Because when missiles are launched towards one another, it is difficult to differentiate
20:53whether they are nuclear-tipped or they are conventional.
20:56Because there is not enough time, nobody will wait for the impact across the border to decide
21:02to launch one or the other.
21:10But why they chose or why they wanted to do this was that after the setback that they
21:14suffered on 27th February, they could not send a large number of Indian aeroplanes across
21:20the border to attack our deeper targets, to get sort of even with us.
21:28Because if they had crossed the border in large numbers, 20, 30, 40 aeroplanes, they
21:33may have lost 5-10 aeroplanes to our interceptors.
21:38So they didn't want to take that risk.
21:39It would have piled up more misery on them.
21:42So instead they decided that it is safe to launch a surface-to-surface weapon or air-to-surface
21:48weapons over long distances because the carrier platform or the launching pad is beyond the
21:58range of the opposing side's weapons.
22:00So that is why they chose this strategy.
22:05But through our common friends, we told them very clearly that if this happens, we will
22:11also do whatever we can and we will not sit idle.
22:16We will not sit back and accept this even though it may be a conventional weapon.
22:21So I think the international powers, they intervened and they knocked some sense into
22:28the Indians that this is not required.
22:33But I guess the bottom line was that we did not cross the nuclear threshold that they
22:39were trying to launch BrahMos, etc. at us.
22:43We had probably crossed their embarrassment threshold that they had such a big country,
22:50such big armed forces with such great numbers and capabilities and yet in the first engagement
22:57they suffered a setback.
22:58It was very embarrassing.
23:00And that is why in all press conferences, whether it was the Joint Armed Forces press
23:06conference or it was the Indian Air Force Chief himself, whenever the press asked for
23:11details, they refused to comment on this particular engagement by saying that these
23:16are ongoing operations, we don't comment on it.
23:19So they were trying to avoid the subject that was being agitated and so they perhaps have
23:31a difficulty reconciling to the embarrassment that they faced.
23:35Sir, has this become like a new normal in the subcontinent that whenever any attack
23:41happens in Kashmir, Indian occupied Kashmir, India starts to blame Pakistan and then tries
23:47to attack Pakistan.
23:50Do you think this has become the new normal?
23:52And if it is the new normal, what do you think, what is your analysis that, how would Pakistan
24:00respond to such behavior from its neighbor?
24:05Actually, they were trying to make this a new normal.
24:11But because of what happened on 27th of February, it has suffered a setback.
24:17Because they were trying to browbeat Pakistan, to scare Pakistan.
24:25Even in this mobilization during the 2001-2002 crisis when the Indian Parliament was attacked
24:32and Pakistan Air Force was deployed for about 9-10 months, at that time also they had mobilized
24:41in a hurry, brought all their troops to our borders, deployed their aeroplanes etc.
24:47But yet they could not take the risk of indulging in an open conventional war.
24:56And so their troops stayed in their positions for 9-10 months with nothing happening.
25:03You know, they were flying training missions on their side, we were flying training missions
25:06on our side.
25:08And then they wanted to now withdraw their forces.
25:12But they needed an excuse to be able to withdraw their forces.
25:20And that excuse would have been that similarly like they tried to do in Balakot, to try to
25:26attack an alleged terrorist training camp and present to its public that, you know,
25:33they had gotten even with Pakistan, they had taken revenge for whatever terrorist incident
25:38had taken place.
25:41And then they could have gone back.
25:45Intermediaries from other countries came to us and they said please allow them to do this,
25:50you know, they will drop some bombs here and there and so just don't react and, you know,
25:57they will withdraw their troops.
25:59So we told them, look, they brought these troops of their own free will.
26:05We didn't force them.
26:06We didn't start it.
26:07We deployed in defense.
26:09It was their initiative to start the mobilization.
26:13And now perhaps if they don't want to do anything or they can't do anything, it is up to them
26:17to take them back or it is up to them to keep them over there.
26:21But they said, but what will you do if you, if they were to do something like this?
26:29I said, I will not answer your question because we have our own strategy and tactics.
26:33But I will help you understand what we could possibly do.
26:38I said, you notice that when across the LOC in Kashmir or elsewhere, when there is small
26:47arms fire from the Indian side, what happens?
26:51He said, you do the same.
26:54I said, when there is a mortar shell thrown across, what do you do?
26:58He said, you do the same.
27:01I said, if they fire long range artillery, what happens?
27:05He said, you respond back.
27:08So I said, if they were to launch a standoff weapon, we will do the same.
27:13So we are not going to accept it lying down.
27:18With all our capability, with all our power that we have at our disposal and the capability
27:23at our disposal, we will react to it in the manner that we think is right.
27:30So nobody should get away with this idea that, that, you know, they can do anything
27:37or even they can just to show the public they can do a small little action and Pakistan
27:42will accept it as, you know, that look the other way and let it be bygone.
27:48This time also, one of the theories floating is that they did not hit the target and they
27:54chose that remote area again for the reason that they may have told our common friends
28:01that we will not cause any damage.
28:03It is a non-military preemptive strike.
28:06This is the name that they gave it and they might have impressed upon others that tell
28:13Pakistan not to react and the matter will end over there, you know.
28:19But for obvious reasons, Prime Minister Imran Khan also told them that if you attack, we
28:25will have no option but to respond.
28:28So there was no going back for Pakistan, despite the fact that they may have attempted to do
28:34this.
28:35So Pakistan responded and fortunately, it turned out well for us.
28:41Sir, you were the former Air Chief of Pakistan.
28:44You're also heading a very big think tank.
28:49My question is very important.
28:51A lot of think tanks across Pakistan are working on this subject.
28:57India is about to acquire Rafales.
29:00They're also about to acquire the S-400s, the Russian missile defence system.
29:07After they acquire both of these things, do you think India will be, it will embolden
29:15and if they do, how will Pakistan or how can Pakistan balance the power, balance the power
29:25strategy in the region?
29:28Well, whenever there is a capability gap between two adversaries, the one that has a slight
29:37edge tends to get emboldened.
29:40That is why the anti-missile systems were never allowed between NATO and Warsaw Pact
29:50countries because when you have this idea that I can thwart all their attacks and then
29:59I'll be able to launch one of my own, then it provokes you towards aggression.
30:07So similarly, if India was to feel secure that with the defensive capability and the
30:13offensive capability that they have or they would have, that they will not let Pakistani
30:19armed forces come close, then they would be emboldened to do some things which are irrational,
30:26I would say.
30:28So like I said earlier in one of the other answers that it is sad that they are going
30:37into this capability enhancement because Pakistan will have to follow suit.
30:46And what can happen is that we can, we will have to go to the Chinese for emergency, you
30:55know, strengthening.
30:58You know, they have capabilities.
31:01Some are known, some are not known.
31:02So whatever best we can get to neutralize or reduce the gap between us and the Indian
31:09armed forces or Air Force specifically, we'll do that.
31:14We will not sit idle.
31:16And that is also not to say that there are no options available.
31:19It's just a matter of deciding what capability suits us best and inshallah we will do it.
31:30Sir, I'm not being biased, but I've spoken to many people from different think tanks,
31:36many international journalists, observers.
31:39They actually consider Pakistan to be a militarily, a regional power within Asia.
31:46I mean, I talk to think tanks and they tell me that Pakistan makes its own aircrafts.
31:52Pakistan is about to, you know, make its own naval warships.
31:58Pakistan is also a nuclear power.
32:00I mean, I don't want to sound threatening, but India keeps on talking about teaching
32:06Pakistan a lesson.
32:09Why do they undermine Pakistan's capability when everybody else could see that capability
32:15in Pakistan's military?
32:18You bring up a very good point.
32:21I missed it out in my other questions.
32:26The advantage Pakistan has always enjoyed is that the decision making in the military
32:32domain has been superior in terms of how we re-equip, what procurements we must do.
32:38In India, you have noticed that this plan to acquire 126 fourth generation, fifth generation
32:46aeroplanes, it has been going on for the last 20 years.
32:50They have still not received one, you know, aeroplane of that kind.
32:56The efforts are ongoing.
32:58Similarly, if you look at it, the development of Tejas in India and the JF-17 in Pakistan
33:05again indicates better decision making in Pakistan.
33:09Pakistan decided that it will take a proven engine and build the aeroplane around it and
33:15put the weaponry on that aeroplane.
33:18The Indians in their ambitious program decided that they wanted to build the engine of the
33:25Tejas also themselves.
33:29We need to understand that the engine is even more complicated than an aeroplane.
33:36So it is a very complex exercise.
33:41So they failed in that endeavor with the result that their whole program of Tejas, it was
33:47started much before JF-17, but their aeroplanes are still not operational, whereas Pakistan
33:53has 6, 7, 8 squads operational and they are actually participating in the operations as
33:59we speak.
34:00So Pakistan certainly is part of considerable strength and not only to India, but we have
34:14proven to other people also that way before, about 20 years ago, other air forces like
34:23the French Air Force, the Belgian Air Force and several others who used to fly the Mirages
34:29gave up flying them, you know, because they didn't have the industrial capacity or their
34:37budgets didn't allow to maintain these old aeroplanes.
34:41Pakistan till today is flying the Mirages.
34:44They were scheduled to be phased out in 1995 and today we are in 2019, 24 years hence they
34:53are still flying.
34:55It speaks about the efficiency and the effectiveness of Pakistan Air Force and its personnel that
35:01we are able to do this and that is why the world recognizes that Pakistan is a considerable
35:09power.
35:10Sir, let's conclude our show.
35:13I'd like to ask the last question.
35:15What lessons should Pakistan learn from the latest escalation between India and Pakistan
35:21and some may call it a limited war?
35:23What lessons do we learn?
35:25The number one lesson is that the air force has to be strengthened.
35:36What we saw on 27th February was not a fluke event.
35:44If you go back, fortunately for me, I was at the time in my office, a credit must go
35:54to General Musharraf that he launched in consultation with the three armed forces, Armed Forces
36:01Development Programme 2019.
36:03It was launched in 2004.
36:06We started briefings and analysis etc. in 2003 but in 2004 it took final shape.
36:15Air Force got the bulk of the money out of that allocation because there was a realization
36:22the Air Force capability needed to be enhanced.
36:27But the good thing is that the decisions that we took at that time, it was a corporate decision.
36:35The list of items that we decided that we needed to procure, whether it was Airborne
36:39Early Warning, whether it was area refuelers, whether it was additional F-16s, whether it
36:44was GF-17, surface to air missiles, drones etc.
36:50Every item in that list is in operation with the Pakistan Air Force today.
36:56It speaks of great institutional strength of the force that like elsewhere, when the
37:03regime changes, things don't change.
37:07They pursued the objectives, force goals that had been fixed at that time.
37:12Also, the weaponry that we had, some of the weapons that we used were as old as 25 years.
37:23So the Air Force performed.
37:28The reasons I told you are that the command decisions that were taken were consistent
37:36and unchanging.
37:38The training that was imparted to our combat crew was realistic.
37:43The morale of the pilots especially was high.
37:52And finally, the technical reliability that whatever was supposed to be used, it was used
38:01and it was effective and it performed.
38:04A short while ago, you gave the example of the Indian case where around the time of 26-27
38:13February, two of their aeroplanes collided in the air, two aeroplanes or one was lost
38:19to bird hit, one was lost to a technical fault and two aeroplanes were shot down and
38:27one helicopter was shot down by their own forces.
38:31Within a time span of one week, they had lost 8-9 aeroplanes.
38:37And on our side, mashaAllah, we were okay.
38:41So there is a stark difference in the philosophy, there may be plenty of reasons because India
38:48is now into IT and all, maybe the best guys don't come to the Indian Air Force, it's not
38:54a preferred choice.
38:55In Pakistan, the best guys still come to the armed forces and the motivation that they
39:05get is strong and that is why perhaps we have a slight edge over them.
39:12Thank you so much, sir, for giving us this interview.
39:15It was a pleasure, it was an honor and it was great to have your analysis on this important
39:21event that took place.
39:23This was our face-to-face interview with Pakistan's previous Air Chief, Kaleem Sadat.
39:28We were discussing the topic, Balakot and beyond, Pakistan and India's limited war.
39:34Until the next episode of Tactical Talk, this is Zain-ul-Khan, take care and goodbye.