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00:00Obviously, you went with the Coens, who are executive producers, at least they have that
00:07credit.
00:08I don't know what their input is to you.
00:10You know, early on, this got set up, MGM controlled the rights, they sold it to FX,
00:15they didn't have a writer attached, Joel and Ethan signed on.
00:19They said, if we like the script, you can put our name on it.
00:21If not, you know where to send the checks, and luckily, they really liked that first
00:27script that I wrote.
00:28Every once in a while, I'll go to New York and I'll sit down with them and they'll say,
00:32you're still making that thing.
00:35But they're godfathers and supportive, but also not trying to tell me how to do it.
00:47So what if I do got to screw loose?
00:50Stress and the like.
00:52I'm holding up my end of the deal.
00:55They're man and wife, him and me, and he loves me.
01:01There are ways we could change that.
01:03The holy bond, revocation of the trust, and cut you both out of the will, see if that
01:09moves the marker.
01:10What are you saying?
01:11I'm saying I don't trust you.
01:15You're up to something, and I won't have you dragging my son down.
01:19So, best you make excuses, you go back to wherever it is you were before you met.
01:26If you go easy.
01:29I could even see my way to staking you for the first two years.
01:38Listen, bitch, I've climbed through six kinds of hell to get where I am, and no Ivy League
01:46royal wannabe is going to run me off just because she doesn't like the way I smell.
01:52If you want to tussle with me, you better sleep with both eyes open.
01:59Because nobody takes what's mine and lives.
02:06Welcome to Behind the Lens.
02:08Okay, so he is a novelist, written six novels, a filmmaker, creator, showrunner, writer,
02:16director, producer, Emmy, WGA, Peabody winner, and many others, and now season five of Fargo,
02:25which premiered all the way back in November, but people are still watching it.
02:30This is Noah Hawley.
02:31Welcome to Behind the Lens.
02:32Thank you.
02:33It seems like too much, right?
02:34Too many things to have to read out loud.
02:37It's after six novels.
02:38I know.
02:39I know.
02:40I'm tired.
02:41I probably look how I feel.
02:42So, did you start as a novelist?
02:44Did you start as a...
02:45I did.
02:46That was it?
02:47Yeah, I mean, I was going to be a rock star, and then it turned out I wasn't a night person,
02:50and I thought, what can I do creatively during the day?
02:53And, you know, my mother was a writer.
02:56Her mother was a writer, so I come from a long line of writers, and I started writing
03:01fiction in my 20s, and, you know, sold my first book.
03:06I was 27 or something, and then, you know, my mother's, what else can I get away with?
03:11And so, I ended up writing a...
03:13My first book got optioned.
03:15I wrote an original screenplay.
03:17You know, it started the journey.
03:19That's wild.
03:20Have any of them actually been turned into films yet?
03:22They haven't yet, no, and now, of course, it's up to me.
03:26You know, it doesn't make sense for anyone else to do it, but there is, you know...
03:30And so, you know, I think about it.
03:33I have a Before the Fall set up at Sony, and I'm talking to them about a film, and so I'll
03:38get to them eventually, but I have all these new stories that keep coming to mind, so I'm
03:43just doing that.
03:44Exactly.
03:45Well, you know, with other people's films, actually.
03:48Yes.
03:49I know.
03:50It's weird, right?
03:51You know, I sort of built this career as reinventing classic films, and, you know, from Fargo,
03:58and now Alien, and I was going to do Star Trek, and, you know, it's interesting, and
04:04yet somehow have managed to maintain my originality while doing it and being able to do my own
04:12thing under the auspices of making a Coen Brothers movie or a Ridley Scott movie.
04:17Yeah.
04:18Well, we haven't seen the Ridley Scott one yet.
04:19Not yet.
04:20I'm almost done with it.
04:21Are you?
04:22Yeah.
04:23Okay, because it got delayed and delayed.
04:24You know, everything got delayed last year, right?
04:25I know.
04:26So, yeah, we've got another month or so of shooting, and then you've got to do all the
04:30finished work you've got to do, but I'm very excited about it.
04:33You've been doing this for 10 years now, and you're still making that thing.
04:36I know.
04:37I'm still making that thing.
04:38Yeah.
04:39Every time I wrap it up, I go, well, that's got to be it, right?
04:42And then, you know, six months, a year, 18 months later, I'll wake up, and I'll go,
04:46oh, yeah, you could do that.
04:48Yeah.
04:49You know, there'll be an idea that'll come.
04:50It'll start.
04:51But there's so many elements, ideas, themes that go into a Fargo that it takes time to,
04:57you know, to add it up.
04:59It's going to be about debt.
05:00Okay, great.
05:01It's going to be a, you know, kind of game of telephone with the movie.
05:05Okay, so, and we're going to explore the idea of, well, what is a wife, right?
05:09In the movie, the wife gets kidnapped.
05:11You know, she's whisking.
05:12There's a bag over her head.
05:13She's dead.
05:14And in ours, it's like, well, so what if it was the wife is the story, and then exploring.
05:18And what if she wasn't the wife?
05:20Right, and what if she was more than one wife, you know?
05:23And the idea of debt, and what do we owe?
05:25And so there's just a lot that goes into it.
05:28You're talking about season five here, the one that, the most current, is veers, I think,
05:33from your previous seasons.
05:35And I can see why you still are interested in this format.
05:38Yeah.
05:39Because it's allowing you, not as a television series, but as almost something new.
05:43It's an anthology, but you're taking it, we're seeing bits and pieces here, you know?
05:48Yeah.
05:49And what if that is, we're seeing Fargo One, the movie, and we're not?
05:53Well, it's cumulative in a way.
05:55I mean, I like that you could watch it in any order, you know, from year to year.
06:02And even throw the movie in there, you know what I mean?
06:05Like, you can watch it in any order, and sometimes there are connections from one thing to another.
06:10And sometimes it's just a thematic connection.
06:13And I would hope at the end of it, there's sort of a sense that we've engaged with this great American experiment, you know,
06:20and really wrestling with this idea of, like, decency versus cynicism,
06:25and how do we stay good and fight evil at the same time?
06:29I thought that was so interesting, theme-wise, of this season,
06:33because this country has gone to a dark place, darker than it's ever been.
06:38But you're doing a show that is as dark as it's ever been, but it has humor.
06:43But what it has is optimism.
06:45Right.
06:46Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at where we ended season three, for example, which was in 2016,
06:54we ended with a question.
06:57Like, the door was going to open, and either the good news was going to enter or the bad news was going to enter,
07:02and then we cut, right?
07:04And it was sort of up to the audience to decide, is the future going to be good or bad?
07:08But here I really, you know, we start with this definition of Minnesota nice,
07:12which is this concept that Joel and Ethan coined for the movie.
07:17And then, of course, we immediately show you that Minnesota nice doesn't really exist,
07:21because we're at this melee at the school board meeting,
07:24and it really is, you know, what is civil society anymore if we've stopped pretending in order to get along
07:32and we're just going to be at each other's throats?
07:34How do we get past that?
07:36Are we just going to Hatfield and McCoy this thing for the rest of our lives,
07:40or are we going to come to some kind of, like, truth and reconciliation?
07:44Yeah, it's the America that we never thought we'd see.
07:47Yeah, yeah, and where everything is said out loud.
07:50And, you know, I always say that you can judge the moral spectrum in Fargo by who is selfish.
07:58The most selfish person is usually the person who's saying, I'm the victim here.
08:03Right.
08:04And then there are people who think about other people, and they're usually the ones who are the heroes,
08:09because that's kind of how the world works.
08:12If you're just in it for yourself, you know, how is that a society?
08:17Do you think of Trump a lot when you're doing this?
08:19Because Jon Hamm's character is a very interesting one.
08:23He's complex as he can be.
08:25But, you know, he's also somebody that's a complete narcissist.
08:29You know, I try to engage with these issues in a way that isn't political, if that's possible.
08:36Right.
08:37And I live in the middle of the country.
08:39I live in Austin, and I want to tell stories to everyone.
08:42And, you know, in creating Roy's character, you know, I didn't want to make a mockery.
08:47Right.
08:48And I was aware as I was doing it that for some portion of the country, Roy is the protagonist of the show.
08:54Exactly.
08:55Right.
08:56And so we have to sort of present him as he is and then let his actions inform, are you still rooting for him?
09:02It's the Walter White thing.
09:03Are you still with him?
09:05Yeah.
09:06He's going to do that thing.
09:07Now he's beating, like, still he's your guy?
09:09You know.
09:10He can shoot somebody in the neck.
09:11You can watch it and then watch him justify it.
09:13Yeah, exactly.
09:14Exactly.
09:15But he's charming.
09:16And, you know, but the thing is, this isn't, you know, the moral majority that we remember from our youth.
09:21Right.
09:22This is Tiger King America.
09:23This is weird sort of hedonistic morality.
09:28Right.
09:29Where in order to to maintain the moral high ground, they've had to redefine what morality is to include their behavior.
09:37Right.
09:38And so and so that's the thing.
09:40I mean, you know, one of my favorite moments of the whole season is Jennifer Jason Leigh saying, so you want you want no responsibility and all the freedom.
09:49You're fighting for your right to be a baby.
09:51Yeah.
09:52You know, that's only babies have that.
09:54That's it.
09:55Although she loves the Federalist Society.
09:56Yeah.
09:57You know.
09:58But one of the things I mean, you know, if you look at a political lens that that I tried to do in this in this season is basically to say, well, what if they're all Republicans?
10:07Right.
10:08That I thought was interesting because they're really if you're an MSNBC rabid fan.
10:13Yeah.
10:14There's nobody there for you.
10:15No, I mean, you could argue that even, you know, Lamorne's character or Rich's character were like, look, we're not touchy feely progressive.
10:23We believe in law and order.
10:24We believe in these things.
10:26And even Dodd and her husband, they might be like, well, you know, we're we're we're maybe socially conservative, fiscally conservative, you know, but that party used to include all shades.
10:39Right.
10:40And so, you know, I thought that that was an interesting place to have the conversation.
10:44It's very interesting.
10:45You know, there's so much in this, which I love about it is you've managed to do this series and find so many new things.
10:51So it's always new.
10:52And I think that's what attracts the kind of cast that you can get.
10:56Jon Hamm.
10:57We have never seen Jon Hamm, at least I can't recall, play this kind of a role.
11:02No, I mean, I've seen him play villains and I think I think he's great doing it.
11:06And obviously his most iconic role, you know, you weren't sure.
11:10Is he a good guy or a bad guy?
11:12And I think that Jon can really hold that duality really well.
11:16And, you know, I mean, I've known him for a while and I said, you know, I really want you to do this.
11:22I said, it's not handsome on a horse, though.
11:24That's not what we're doing right.
11:26This is a character role and you have to go all the way.
11:29And and he did.
11:30You know, he bulked up a bit.
11:32He you know, he became, you know, American in a more Midwestern way.
11:37Despite the nipple ring.
11:38Yeah. And then and then, you know, the voice and the and the gruffness.
11:42And and, you know, he went to a very dark, a dark place for this role there.
11:46And he's so good. Yeah.
11:48You know, I mean, he's has another moment for him, too, because Morning Show is completely different.
11:53And he's really good. And he shot them at the same time.
11:55He would get on a plane from Calgary and fly to L.A. or New York and make the morning show and then get back on a plane and come to us.
12:04So talk about putting on a different hat.
12:06That's amazing. Yeah. Juno Temple is just extraordinary in this, too.
12:11Yeah. Right from the first episode where you're watching her and, you know, you're just going like, oh, my God, what's going to happen here?
12:19Yeah. I mean, my feeling was if you cast this wrong, you're you're calling Child Protective Services.
12:24Right. Because here's this woman and, you know, she's living in this denial.
12:29This thing happens to her. She escapes a kidnapping.
12:31She goes home. She pretends it never happened.
12:33They come for her again. She allows that to happen while her kids are in the house.
12:37But, you know, I needed someone who was fun and mischievous and playful and a fun mom.
12:43And and, you know, Juno just brought those elements to it where no matter how bad things got, like she was always she stayed positive.
12:52She stayed constructive. She's an amazing character and fighting munch old munch, you know, and he's amazing.
12:59Sam Spruill. Yeah. You know, and you're watching his hairstyle.
13:02And I kept thinking of Javier Bardem in No Country for Old Men.
13:05I know. I say God bless Sam for letting us do that to his head.
13:10And at least when he wasn't on set, he could brush it back.
13:13But yeah, but you can't not kill this guy off.
13:15No. And he, you know, it you know, these roles like David Thewlis's role or Bokeem Woodbine in season two, this real act of invention.
13:25Right. Where on some level you're playing a real person and on some level you're sort of playing this elemental figure.
13:32Thewlis was this Faustian Willy Loman. Right.
13:35And and, you know, and for Sam to be this eternal figure, this, you know, 500 year old man hasn't talked to anybody in a century.
13:44Yeah. Who owns nothing. If he wants a cigarette, he's got to find it on the ground.
13:49You know, we had all these rules for him and and and, you know, the idea that that he's sold his soul.
13:56And so there's no me. There's left. He never says I or me.
14:00And, you know, it's Sam went all the way, which he really does.
14:04You know, and he becomes in the end, you know, he's on some level the scariest figure who becomes the most heartbreaking.
14:11You end it with him. Yeah.
14:13It's I'm always interested in what's the last image.
14:16Yes. In a movie. And, you know, yes.
14:19And I know there was a moment where the where there was a suggestion, I won't say from from who at the at the network,
14:27that maybe we want to end on Juno's reaction to his smile.
14:30That would be the normal. That's a terrible idea.
14:33You want to end right here on the feeling. Right.
14:35And and, you know, luckily I have Final Cut that you did.
14:40Yeah. But sometimes that's like an ego thing with the star.
14:43You know, you've got to end on the star's face.
14:46Well, what I found is as someone who's an ensemble storyteller, you know,
14:50is that you tend to weed out the egotists because everyone's showing up knowing that there's six, you know, six stars of the show.
14:57You know, and and so I've been lucky, you know, I haven't had the real diva experience yet.
15:02And I also think that now that it that Fargo is what it is, people show up and, you know, even they're a little intimidated.
15:09Even Ewan McGregor's a little, you know, it's like, you know, Chris Rock.
15:13He's like, they don't want to be the ones that I know they killed it.
15:16I remember working with Chris and I was like, what's up?
15:18He's like he's like there's a rhythm to the dialogue and in Fargo and I can hear I'm not.
15:22I'm like, don't think about that. Like, just be the guy in the moment.
15:26And he was great. Yes. You know, I mean, you have amazing cast throughout this entire series.
15:31Yeah. And you direct the first two episodes.
15:36You write them all. Yeah. But you you direct just the first two.
15:39Is that to set a template or what? What is your reasoning on just doing the first two?
15:44Well, children, family. I want them to like me and remember me.
15:51Yeah, it's I do. The first year I wrote them all solo.
15:55I've had writer's rooms ever since. And I'll write and co-write.
15:59You know, I always start it off because every every year is it's a new movie.
16:04Right. It's a it's new world building.
16:06And and I found like if I can remove all the layers between the vision and the screen,
16:14then I can get exactly what I see on the on the screen.
16:17And so it became it just became the way to do it.
16:22And and and, you know, now, of course, with Alien and Legion or whatever, it's like that's that's the template is to get in there and create the world, create the rules cinematically.
16:32How are we shooting this? How's the camera going to move? What's the aesthetic?
16:36You know, and and and then hand it off to other directors because that's how television works.
16:41Yeah. You know, normally. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it it has to.
16:46And I talked to Sam Esmail about it or, you know, and he's like, I got kids now.
16:51Like, you know, it's it's it's not sustainable. Yeah.
16:54You know, Leslie Lincoln Glotter. I had a dinner with her.
16:57She's doing all six hours of this De Niro thing and she's on day forty five of one hundred and twenty.
17:02It's like who can stain that it's it's television works the way it works for a reason.
17:07Yeah. And your direction is not typical television.
17:12There's a lot of silence. Yeah. First episode. There's not a lot of dialogue.
17:16We're watching the camera. Right. Move in such interesting ways.
17:20It's almost Hitchcockian. Yeah. You have the yarn, the role of yarn you're playing, which I thought was really a clever device.
17:27But the camera is so important here of what you're doing all throughout.
17:31Yeah. And look, I have no formal training. Right. So I just make it up as I go along.
17:35And it's all about trying to create a feeling in in the audience.
17:39And and, you know, everything from Len's choice. I'll do theatrical lighting cues.
17:43We do things like when she's kidnapped. If you notice when she's fighting the guys off upstairs,
17:48the wallpaper is this jungle scene. She's out in nature.
17:52And when she's captured, she's down in the kitchen and it's bars, stripes. Right.
17:56So. So is the audience noticing that she's gone from freedom to jail?
18:01They're probably not. But there's a feeling. Right. You're you're feeling it.
18:04And then if you notice, she fades away. She doesn't. We don't cut.
18:08She fades away and you're left with just the bars.
18:10And that was just me on the day looking at it and going, oh, so we're locked off.
18:15And if we pull her out and then we can just do that, it's all about trying to create creative feeling.
18:20And you do it within the confines of television, having commercial breaks. Right.
18:25On FX, but not on Hulu. So if you watch it on Hulu, the breaks are there.
18:30And it has a different kind of feel. But you've written for that.
18:34Well, so I don't write act breaks. You know, we we I write it seamlessly.
18:39And then I figure we'll figure it out in the edit,
18:42because I also don't believe that if the last thing the audience sees isn't maximum drama,
18:47they're going to turn the channel. Right. Like you either have them or you don't.
18:50Yeah. But then I also get FX to do a seamless version,
18:54which I suppose is for iTunes or or buying it where there are no breaks in that, you know.
19:00And I just think that people watch it in so many different ways.
19:04And we need to finish it for each of those different ways.
19:08I wanted to ask, we're doing an event coming up, Sound and Screen.
19:13It's all about music. And a lot of people don't think about the music in television.
19:16But I noticed in the first episode, it's so important. Yeah.
19:20The way you use music. How do you approach that?
19:24Well, every year, you know, I've worked with Jeff Russo, my composer at the script stage or even the outline stage.
19:30You know, what is this year sound like? Right. What are the elements to it?
19:34I always put together a playlist, which is both, you know, which is needle drop songs, classical music,
19:42whatever things that feel like they're filling the sonic, the sound of the show, the state of mind of it.
19:49And and and then and then we talk about the characters and he'll write themes for each of the characters.
19:55And sometimes those themes will be applied in the finished cut to those characters or sometimes they're used in other ways.
20:01But but, you know, we were one of the first shows to really sort of bring the full orchestra back to television and and use the scale of it in the drama.
20:12And, you know, I think my days as as a musician, I think I have a very good sense of how to use music.
20:19Right. And often the answer is don't use music.
20:22And especially if the tone is you're doing drama, you're doing comedy, you're doing violence.
20:27Which do you score? Because if you score the comedy, it undermines the drama, et cetera.
20:32So often it's don't score. You know, where do you put the music is is just as important as what the music is.
20:39Yeah, I've really noticed the not the use of music in things coming back from the Cannes Film Festival,
20:46watching these films from all over the world, the directors who don't use music at all.
20:50And then suddenly at the end there's music and I go, oh, there was no music.
20:55Yes. Well, music tells you how to feel right.
20:58Yeah. And that's why, you know, in the old days of broadcast television, it's like the sad piano music starts before the sad moment.
21:06They don't even wait for the sad moment. Right. But if you don't tell people how to feel, then they're on their own. Right.
21:13And then, you know, the the example that I would give quickly is in season three, Carrie Coon has this thing where the door sensors don't don't recognize her.
21:23You know, the sink like she's beginning to think that she's not real. Right.
21:27And she's at her lowest point. She has the scene with her co-worker and she's saying all this stuff.
21:32And it's so emotional. And there was plenty of places I could have played music. Right.
21:38And I didn't. And then she goes to the bathroom and because she's owned up to it now, the sink works for her.
21:44And and that's where the score went. Right. Yeah. It was the it was the uplifting moment.
21:50And I think because I hadn't used music before, it's so much more powerful.
21:53Yeah. Yeah. So important. And thanks. I have to ask you, we talked a little bit about Alien, but everybody's waiting for this.
22:00You know, this is another roll of the dice to get those fans who love.
22:04Yeah. What alien the first two aliens are just beyond brilliant.
22:08They aren't version. Yes. And Ridley Scott. How closely do you work with somebody like Ridley Scott in this?
22:15Well, I just try to keep up with Ridley Scott. I mean, the guy, I mean, every time I would talk to him, he's storyboarding his next thing or he's in France or this vineyard or whatever.
22:24I mean, I think it's taken me five years to to get the show off the ground and into theaters.
22:30I think he's made nine movies in that period of time, including Napoleon and Gladiator two and everything.
22:36So, you know, I don't have spend a lot of time with Ridley. I have, you know, like with Joel and Ethan, I have his buy in.
22:43And I said to him, look, I'm adapting your film that that's what I'm doing.
22:47I think the the aesthetic of it, the sensibility, the retro futurism, like, you know, that's that's that's what inspires me.
22:56You know, and of course, James Cameron's movie, one of the great action movies of all time.
23:00And and I feel like those elements are available to me as well.
23:04And then, you know, I mean, I'm doing my my own thing with it.
23:08You know, just like I've heard Denis Villeneuve say like he couldn't have made Dune unless he'd made every other movie.
23:14Oh, yeah. Right. To get him there, each one slightly bigger.
23:17Yeah. I would say a similar thing, which is, you know, it took making all these things, scaling up, making Legion, making Fargo, Lucy, all those things.
23:26Lucy in the Sky, which is your theatrical film.
23:29Yeah. And and, you know, the sort of experimental phase of Legion going into Lucy in the magic realism astronaut movie that I made.
23:37And then, you know, I think you see with this year of Fargo, like I was a great story.
23:42Well told. That's what I'm doing. It starts with a bang.
23:45Every every episode is forty two to forty four minutes like we're not messing around.
23:51It's not indulgent. You know, I think I think audiences are watching differently now than they did even three years ago or four years ago.
23:59And and, you know, I I want to bring people the horror and the action and and the thematic elements that are in those two movies.
24:09And then, you know, I also have things I want to talk about.
24:12Yeah. And it's set like in a different time period. It's a prequel, I guess.
24:16Well, it said it's set within the the time.
24:20First, second movie in there.
24:22So those elements, the whale and Yutani, all that stuff exists in this world.
24:26And it plays with some of those themes, the, you know, blue collar, you know, corporate power, all of that.
24:33And, you know, it brings these these elements to Earth.
24:37And and, you know, it's amazing after six films how little mythology there is. Right.
24:42You know that there's a whale in Yutani. You don't know how Earth is is politically.
24:48Are we unified or, you know, none of that stuff is there, which gives me a lot of leeway to sort of explore what I wanted to explore.
24:54And not go with so much of the technology that's appeared towards the end of the other things.
24:58You know, it's just a choice. Right.
25:00And and and when I think about Alien, I think about the green ASCII.
25:05I think about those keyboards. You know, I mean, that that's what Alien is to me.
25:09I think about the thing popping out of John Hurt's stomach.
25:11Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.
25:13And that's one of the scariest things I've ever seen.
25:16I mean, we got to do that, too.
25:17And of course, you know, the actors didn't know that that was going to happen.
25:21I mean, they knew that something was going to happen, but they weren't prepared.
25:24You know, their reaction to that blood hitting him in the face.
25:27They were not prepared for that.
25:29You know, I talked about taking on your novels and things.
25:33Maybe you'll do another theatrical motion picture.
25:36Are you looking to do another one? Yeah, I'd like to.
25:38I'd like to. You know, it's interesting working with with stories of different lengths. Right.
25:43I mean, there's something about a limited series.
25:46You know, it's a very compelling format. Right.
25:48Because it's not a two hour story and it's not a series.
25:51It's it's it's you know, we're not allowed to say 10 hour movie anymore.
25:55But but on some level it is because it has a beginning, middle and an end.
25:59But when I did Lucy and, you know, wrestling with that finite object. Right.
26:03You can't do that thing that you do in TV where you're like, well, this doesn't really fit here.
26:07But I'm going to use it later. There's no later.
26:10No. Right. And and and you've shot what you've shot.
26:13And, you know, unless you're in in the big tentpole movies, you're not going back to get pickups or any of that.
26:19And so, you know, I think that that there's a reason that a that film is a real movie star,
26:27you know, that you want to be with one smaller number of characters, you know, to really live.
26:32And, you know, here and and, you know, I'm excited to do another one.
26:37You know, that would be great. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us on Behind the Lens.
26:41Noah Hawley. And if you haven't seen it yet, all 10 episodes are on Hulu streaming now.
26:48It's Fargo season five. Thanks for joining us on Behind the Lens. Thanks so much.