Kent Film Club - Katherine Shannon (Thursday 13th June 2024)
This week Chris Deacy is joined in the studio by Katherine Shannon to discuss the films; Seven, In Bruges, The English Patient, and Shaun of the Dead.
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00:00Hello, and welcome to Kent Film Club.
00:15I'm Chris DC, and each week I'll be joined by a guest from Kent to dive deep into the
00:19impact certain films have had on their life.
00:22Each guest will reflect on the films which have meant the most to them over the years.
00:26And every week there will be a Kent Film Trivia, where we quiz you at home about a
00:30film that has a connection to the county.
00:33And now let me introduce you to my guest for this week.
00:37She is a writer, director and producer of films, and has worked on over 150 films, including
00:43works for BAFTA, the BFI and the BBC.
00:46She is Catherine Shannon.
00:49Great to have you on the programme, Catherine.
00:50Lovely to be here.
00:51Very impressive.
00:53So the first film that you've chosen is Seven.
00:57What made you go for this?
00:58I have loved it since the very first time I've seen it.
01:01I can't remember seriously how many times I've watched it.
01:04And I've actually taught it in schools as well, to A-level students obviously.
01:10But I remember at the time it was really slated for being so dark, literally dark.
01:15But I thought that was fantastic because I couldn't see everything.
01:18I didn't want to see everything.
01:21And as things kind of get more and more graphic, I thought that was the beauty of the cinema
01:26because it made your imagination go absolutely crazy.
01:29Because David Fincher, of course, made this.
01:32And like you, I saw it at the multiplex and didn't realise quite how dark it was going
01:36to get.
01:37A bit like Chinatown in the 70s had the whole thing about there's no happy ending, but the
01:42film's all the better for it.
01:43And with Seven, it doesn't go the way that you expected it to, but it's all the more
01:47rewarding for that.
01:48Yeah, I agree so.
01:51I mean, the thing is, we do not know who the character is doing these seven deadly sins.
01:57And it's only Morgan Freeman's work in the library that suddenly makes you go, oh, oh,
02:03I see.
02:04There is a purpose to it.
02:05It's not just sheer villainy.
02:09And also kind of a trivia fact is I love the fact that Kevin Spacey was never credited.
02:14He was always John Doe.
02:16And I thought that's really clever.
02:17Yes, because it was around that time that he won the Oscar for The Usual Suspense.
02:21But you're right.
02:22And of course, the identity there, it's all part of the game.
02:25This was sort of really, in so many ways, a golden age.
02:28And there are many others of Hollywood, because this was an era when, particularly David Fincher,
02:33who, of course, went on to do Fight Club.
02:35But that sort of sense of groundbreaking films which were mainstream, but which really tipped
02:42over the edge.
02:43It took the audience almost like literally over the cliff.
02:45But also, I mean, I think what's very clever about him is looking at American society and
02:50looking at the underbelly of it and go, what is frustrating us?
02:54What is annoying us?
02:55Why are we just angry all the time?
02:58So you reference Fight Club, and that's the same situation.
03:00I mean, obviously, it deals with masculinity more than anything else.
03:03But it is that kind of subculture which this is as well.
03:07And you mentioned Morgan Freeman, because, of course, there's that voiceover.
03:10Now, what he brings to that, obviously, there's the gravitas.
03:13But the scene that comes to my mind is the metronome that's going back and forth.
03:17And he's trying to say, well, he hasn't quite given up on humanity, but he's aware that
03:23it needs the sort of skills, a bit like, I suppose, Humphrey Bogart did in the 40s, that
03:28sort of the white knight in the world where everything is falling apart.
03:32But he's world-weary.
03:34He's aware that he can't control everything.
03:37But he brings a sense of decency and humanity while everything else is falling apart.
03:42And the way in which you have that relationship structure as well.
03:46And that, of course, goes very far from the way you expect it to.
03:50Well, I think the beauty of his performance is it's so understated.
03:54And we know from the get-go, he's retiring.
03:58And then this extraordinary case crops up.
04:00And he can't let it go.
04:01And he certainly can't let it go to Brad Pitt's character, who's just too enthusiastic for
04:07his own good and doesn't think.
04:10He just acts.
04:11So the balance of those two actors, I thought, was a beautiful casting choice.
04:15Absolutely.
04:16Really good.
04:17I'm just thinking of, because you've also got that element in there, it's almost a form
04:20of, it's like a detective story, of course, because Morgan Freeman is that detective.
04:23But using these clues, which almost look as though they've come from some other realm.
04:27Because of course, he's having to read all these texts.
04:30He's reading, I think he may be Aquinas at one point.
04:33And he's trying to sort of work out the finality of the human condition.
04:36And of course, that's not normally within the pay grade of most detectives.
04:41Indeed.
04:42But this is something from a completely different dimension.
04:44Well, I think that's what's fascinating about the way Morgan helps him.
04:51And if you remember, he's got like a Religious Guys for Dummies or something, one of those
04:55books rather than, you know, Dante or what have you.
05:00But it's just a gentle education he gives him as a man as well, not just as a copper.
05:09And I was trying to work out because at one point I was using this film because I was
05:11drawing on David Fincher a lot when I was doing some work on Redemption.
05:15Some people said, of course, this is the most Redemption-less film you could get.
05:18But I'm not so sure about that.
05:19I'm not sure about that.
05:20Yeah, exactly.
05:21So I'm fascinated that you used it with A-level students.
05:23What was their take on this?
05:25Well, you're not allowed to show all of it because some of it is too disturbing, obviously.
05:33But it's really just trying to understand scripts, quality of lighting, framing, all
05:40of those things that you use in film studies, but also the narrative arc.
05:45What were their expectations of it?
05:47What did they imagine would happen in the end?
05:50And most people thought it would work out.
05:54And I thought, I can't say anything.
05:56I can't tell you anything at all.
05:59Have you watched this film on the big screen, the small screen?
06:03Both.
06:04Yeah.
06:05Do they both work equally effectively?
06:07Passionately, for me, because I love them and I've seen them too many times.
06:13But I would recommend anyone to go to the cinema to see a film like this.
06:16Absolutely.
06:17100%.
06:18Fantastic.
06:19OK, well, it's time now to move on to your second chosen film, Catherine.
06:22And you've gone for In Bruges.
06:26And now this, of course, we've had on the programme a few times before.
06:29Oh, have you?
06:30Yeah.
06:31I think twice, actually, this has come up.
06:33But this obviously deals with some of the same tropes from the first film, but in a
06:37much more comedic vein.
06:38Or is it?
06:39Because it's a while since I saw it.
06:43For me, I just think it's so beautifully written by Martin Madonna.
06:49And I just think the acting in it is outstanding.
06:53It's so affectionate to some seriously dodgy fellas.
06:59And there are so many inappropriate jokes.
07:02I'm not sure it could be made now.
07:04That's for sure.
07:05But I've, again, it's a film I've watched many, many times.
07:08I've introduced so many friends to it saying, you have to watch it, you have to watch it.
07:11And everyone's fallen in love with it.
07:13I could quote you probably half the script, but I'm not going to bore you.
07:16And most of the language isn't appropriate either, so.
07:19Because as I recall, so you've got these two hitmen, and of course, they don't know who
07:23their target is.
07:25And without giving too much away, of course, there is an unexpected, shall we say, alignment
07:31when they realize that they're both there to do the same thing.
07:34But actually, it doesn't go the way either of them expect.
07:37And I'm thinking that they then have to effectively rewrite their script.
07:41Not quite.
07:43Not quite.
07:44I mean, I think if you kind of look at it from the perspective that they've been sent
07:51there by their big boss to have this fairy tale adventure.
07:59He thinks Bruges is the most beautiful place in the world, and particularly Colin Farrell's
08:03character thinks it's the most boring place in the universe.
08:06It's just, it's the dynamic between two gentlemen.
08:10And what was an interesting fact for me was Martin originally wrote it for two English
08:14fellows.
08:15For me, that wouldn't have worked.
08:16It's the fact that they're Irish.
08:17It just, for me, it's the lilts, the tones, the mickey-taking, and the love.
08:23And the fact that underneath it all is our religious sensibilities, and that is the key
08:27to the film.
08:28Yeah, and that certainly links with Seven as well.
08:31It does.
08:32And I'm just thinking about that thing as well, because the whole fish out of water,
08:34I suppose Fishka Wanda dealt with it in a similar sort of way in 1988.
08:39But having that sense there about these people who are a bit sort of world-weary, certainly
08:43the Brendan Gleeson carry, and suddenly there's this sense that they're in a different environment,
08:48but they're renegotiating the very nature of their work.
08:52I mean, the film that's out at the moment, which is The Hitman, with Glen Powell, which
08:57deals with that sort of notion of somebody whose job it is to, in this case, is to prevent
09:02people from bumping off their spouses or the people they want to get rid of.
09:05But he's also a philosophy professor by day, and he has all these different sort of takes
09:09on this.
09:10So it's sort of, you know, what is the nature of the human condition?
09:12Well, I think it's the notion, as you say for both films actually, a notion of morality.
09:18You might have the worst job in the universe, whether it's a police officer or a hitman.
09:23It depends on your perspective.
09:25But the notion that morality cannot leave you if you're a reasonable person.
09:32When it does leave you 100%, that's when you're lost.
09:35And of course, in Seven as well, you have exactly that same trope.
09:39And of course, both of these films are good in that sense, and I suppose Pulp Fiction
09:44somehow took the world by storm in 94 when it did that, with that sense of the people
09:49who are often in film the villains, but they're the most rounded, three-dimensional characters.
09:55And you're thinking, OK, these are not the people you'd normally relate to in a film
09:59like this, but they're the protagonists, and that kind of wrong-foots us.
10:04You actually like them, because they are funny, they have a sense of humour about themselves.
10:12And although, again, it's a pretty aggressive job, they like people.
10:19They don't necessarily want to do this, but it's a living.
10:24Yeah, that sort of notion of finding humanity in spaces where the humanity is kind of missing,
10:30but somebody, or whether it comes from within or without, has to find a way of reinserting
10:35it or rediscovering it.
10:36Exactly.
10:37I mean, for me, obviously the big speech from the Bible, the Sam quotes, is so powerful.
10:47And it's not often anyone's going to, and I know you teach religious studies, so forgive
10:51me, but it's not often people really think about what they're reading.
10:55But that speech is just extraordinary, and it does make you actually feel passionate,
10:59really passionate.
11:00So do you find that a film like this is able to sort of tell you, to subvert you, to wrong-foot
11:06you, to take you somewhere that you didn't expect to go?
11:08All my favourite films do that.
11:09If I know within the first ten minutes what's going to happen, I'm not that interested.
11:14And it's the same when you write a script.
11:16You have to engage in the first couple of pages, otherwise it's not going to be read.
11:20So you have to kind of just intrigue all the time, so your characters are not fully fleshed
11:26out at the beginning, but they become so through rhyme or not reason.
11:29Well, I can't wait to find out what your next choices are.
11:32Well, that's about all the time we have for this first half of the show.
11:35However, before we go to the break, we have a Kent Film Trivia question for you at home.
11:40Which award-winning film was shot 90% in Ramsgate?
11:44Was it A. Juliet Naked, B. Leave Now, or C. Dom & John?
11:51We'll reveal the answer right after this break.
11:54Don't go away.
12:05Hello, and welcome back to Kent Film Club.
12:08Just before the ad break, we asked you at home a Kent Film Trivia question.
12:12Which award-winning film was shot 90% in Ramsgate?
12:16I asked, was it A. Juliet Naked, B. Leave Now, or C. Dom & John?
12:22And now I can reveal to you that the answer was, in fact, B. Leave Now.
12:26While 90% of the film was shot in Ramsgate, the remainder of the film was shot in Broadstairs,
12:31Margate, and Kingstown, making it 100% shot within Kent.
12:36Did you get the answer right?
12:38Well, it is time now, Catherine, to move on to your next chosen film.
12:41And maybe a slightly different change of pace here.
12:45You've gone for The English Patient.
12:49What made you choose this?
12:52Well, first and foremost, it was one of the most amazing books I'd ever read.
12:58It just knocked me out, completely knocked me out.
13:01And then when I saw it, it just transported me.
13:09I didn't watch it as a film critic or anything.
13:15I was just a human being watching it, crying my eyes out,
13:20finding the cinematography just astonishing.
13:24And for my dissertation, I actually contacted Anthony Minghella and said,
13:29could I spend some time with you?
13:32And he said yes.
13:34So I was very lucky.
13:35I worked with him on one of his films.
13:38And we talked a little bit about it.
13:43And for me, the most meaningful thing he said to me was, in the very first shot
13:48that you see, he wanted the sand dunes to look like a female body.
13:54And they do.
13:56And suddenly, it just gives you a sense of what
13:58this film is going to do to you.
14:03And you can criticise the morality of the couple concerned with their behaviour.
14:08But the fact they fall in love like that is just wow.
14:12And it just makes you either never want to fall in love like that
14:16or to do it 100%.
14:18And I thought Gabriel Yared's music was wow, just incredible.
14:25And he always works on set with Minghella.
14:27So he's there all the time.
14:30So he sees the rushes every single day.
14:32And then we'll decide what to add at that point, rather than do it at the end.
14:37He did the score, I think, for Message in a Bottle, which
14:39was out around that period.
14:41And again, very sort of breathtaking, very epic.
14:43And I saw the English patient on the big screen
14:46when I was living in Wales before Lawrence of Arabia.
14:50I don't mean on the same day, but of course.
14:52No, you couldn't either.
14:52You could not.
14:53You probably literally couldn't.
14:54But there was something about that that it was suddenly
14:57this reimagining almost, this sort of breathtaking, great sort of spectacle,
15:02the sort of films that we didn't think were being made anymore.
15:04And a very, you know, because Juliet Binoche won the Oscar,
15:07perhaps against the odds.
15:08I think Lauren Bacall was expected to win for The Mirror Has Two Faces.
15:12But this film kind of did maybe what Chariot Sapphire had done 15 or so
15:16years earlier, which is to show that there is this real sparkle,
15:20this real sense of very character-driven film set
15:23in exotic locations, which are very powerfully wrought.
15:27But I mean, also, you obviously have the background of the war.
15:30So Juliet Binoche's character, obviously, being a nurse, I mean,
15:34she's seen some terrible, terrible things.
15:37But then you got that beautiful scene where her lover
15:40flies around the hospital.
15:43And I'm just like, I'm a soppy girl.
15:45So I just kind of went, wow, I wish someone would do that for me.
15:49But I just thought that was beautiful and just those moments of joy.
15:54But I'm sure, I mean, today, obviously, with the celebrations of D-Day,
15:57you think you have to find a glimmer of hope in everything.
16:03And did you contact, then, Anthony Miguela after this film?
16:06So was it through seeing this?
16:07Or had you established contact with him before The English Patient?
16:12No, afterwards.
16:13Afterwards, I was aware of his first AD, Steve Andrews,
16:19who's also a producer.
16:21And I contacted him in the first instance and said,
16:24can I talk to you about what it was like to work on the film?
16:27He said, no problem whatsoever.
16:28But then he said, well, why don't you speak to Tony?
16:31You should spend some time with him.
16:32And I went, really?
16:35And so I did.
16:36And in his studios, I mean, God rest him, he's gone.
16:40But he had this huge dinner table.
16:45So everybody had lunch together, very Italian.
16:49And it's just a pleasure.
16:50And then you'd work.
16:51And I remember my favorite story about him.
16:54We were watching The Rushes.
16:56And to concentrate, he put bubble wrap on his head.
16:59And during the bits he liked, he'd leave it alone.
17:01And then the bits he didn't like, he'd start popping the bubbles.
17:04And he was going, but you're Anthony Miguela.
17:06What the heck?
17:08So those sort of wonderful eccentricities.
17:10It sounds, because also, I find, because obviously, you're
17:12a filmmaker as well.
17:13But I suppose sometimes, in order
17:15to create those masterpieces, I suppose
17:17you need a particular vision that perhaps nobody else could
17:20have crafted that sort of film in that kind of way.
17:23And he sounded a phenomenal character.
17:25I mean, and he was taken way too soon as well.
17:28Way, way too soon.
17:30But his dedication to stories was extraordinary.
17:36I mean, he'd work longer hours than any of the crew.
17:41And his work with his editor, Walter Murch, in the studio
17:45I worked with him on, the pictures,
17:48literally every single frame, every single frame,
17:52kind of put up.
17:53And then they decided which order to put them in
17:55and to create the movement of the film.
17:59And this detail is just extraordinary.
18:02And tell me about the very first screening.
18:04So that was obviously on the big screen.
18:06And was that the sort of moment you just
18:08came away and thought, wow?
18:10Yes.
18:12Yes, I feel like it was.
18:13Can you remember where it was?
18:14No, I actually can't.
18:16I think I was in London at the time.
18:17But I just remember just my heart kind
18:22of exploding through my chest because I thought
18:24the whole thing was so beautiful.
18:27Yeah.
18:27No, that comes out so clearly from what you're saying.
18:29Well, it's time now to move onto your final chosen film.
18:32And goodness me, from the sublime to the ridiculous,
18:34you've gone for Shaun of the Dead.
18:38Brilliant.
18:40Great order in which to have picked these.
18:43So very different British comedy.
18:46Yes, indeed.
18:47Hybrid.
18:49No, I think it's still comedy.
18:51I think what I love about it, and again, it's
18:55a film I've seen too many times for my own good, really,
18:59is that you know that Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg
19:03wrote these three films.
19:04So they're called the Cornetto trilogy.
19:07And in every single one is a joke about Cornetto.
19:10So once you know that, then you start looking for it,
19:12which you probably shouldn't.
19:13But what I liked was the blissful innocence
19:18of his relationship with Nick Frost,
19:20and the fact that they're both so lazy,
19:22and ignoring the girlfriend, and just fellows playing games.
19:26And I found that really, really funny.
19:28And then this chaos ensues.
19:30And there's a shot that happens just
19:32before the apocalypse kind of starts kicking in,
19:35where he's just a bit hung over.
19:37And he goes to the shop.
19:38And you just see people walking around looking
19:40like death warmed up anyway.
19:43So when it happens for real, you don't notice, really.
19:46You're going, is he biting someone's neck?
19:49Is he?
19:50And you just don't notice, because in London, that's not
19:52sort of thing.
19:53You know, you just walk on.
19:54You just kind of get on with life.
19:56Yeah, and you've also just hit the nail on the head,
19:58because you've got those tropes from a sort of horror,
20:02vampire sort of dynamic.
20:04But placing them, I suppose an American werewolf in London
20:06did that similarly.
20:07But placing it not just in the UK, as I recall,
20:11but in a very kind of small scale,
20:13you know, English village type sort of scenario.
20:16Was this set in Somerset?
20:19No, it's all London.
20:20It is all London.
20:21It is all London.
20:21No, you're thinking of Hot Fuzz.
20:23Hot Fuzz, for the greater good.
20:27So this is all in London.
20:29But what makes this so sort of, there's
20:32something very sort of quintessentially
20:33British about it.
20:35Probably, mainly because it's set in a pub,
20:37and that's their first choice of escape.
20:40And I think a lot of people can identify with that
20:42and just go, yes, that's where I like to be.
20:44And the fact that that's where they go for a sense of escape.
20:48But Idiot Boy puts on a jukebox, and suddenly all the zombies
20:52kind of congregate, and it all goes horribly, horribly wrong.
20:57But there's some, I mean, there's some sublime moments.
20:59They happily nicked from Romero, and they told him.
21:04And he loved it, apparently.
21:05He absolutely adored it.
21:08But I thought, I haven't seen a zombie film
21:09for a really long time.
21:10I mean, now you can't go anywhere
21:12without seeing a zombie film.
21:14And I'm just thinking that, obviously, the films
21:16that you've chosen, maybe The English Patient
21:19is the exception, but there's certainly
21:21an engagement with something showing the more
21:24venal sides of human nature.
21:26But this one is obviously more comedic.
21:28So do you find that, is this the sort of go-to?
21:32I don't like using the word guilty pleasure,
21:33because sometimes you think, well,
21:35you know, what's there to be guilty about?
21:37But I'm intrigued that sometimes when a film can,
21:40and Bruges has the comedy element as well,
21:43but it sort of like does a better job sometimes
21:46when you've got that hybrid kind of structure,
21:49when you've got a film that can offer,
21:51use comedy as a conduit, as a way into something, which
21:54does what all three of previous films
21:57have done, which is to say something really insightful
21:59about the human condition.
22:02Yes, I think it's almost teaching by the back door.
22:06You are trying to say something more profound.
22:09But by using comedy, it doesn't feel like you're being lectured.
22:13So it's easier to kind of swallow, I guess.
22:17And is this the sort of film that you
22:18can watch many times over?
22:20Because, yeah, I think all of the films
22:23here you've watched several times over,
22:25but this one is, is this sort of more like a Friday night
22:29type thing?
22:30Not a Friday night, actually.
22:32More a Sunday afternoon.
22:33Yeah.
22:37Myself and my partner, and he's a film producer,
22:39we watch films like constantly, constantly, constantly.
22:43But if you like, the guilty pleasure
22:46is watching something you don't have
22:48to think about the lighting or the set design or whatever,
22:52because both of us just do that a lot.
22:55We come out of it and not be a punter.
22:58We're a critic.
22:59And I just love sometimes just being an audience member.
23:02Do you find that if you watch a film more than once,
23:04do you get something different out of it each time?
23:06Yes.
23:06Or is it the comfort of saying, I know where this is going?
23:08No, every single time I find something new, which I love.
23:11I'm also such a geek because I read books on things
23:14that I love.
23:14So I've got a beautiful book about Shaun of the Dead
23:17called You've Got Red on You, which
23:18is just funny and illuminating on how hard it was to make.
23:23I mean, there were so many times it wasn't going to happen.
23:25It just was not going to happen.
23:27But they just stuck to their guns, and it did take 10 years.
23:31Brilliant.
23:31Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today.
23:35Many thanks to Catherine Shannon for joining us
23:37and being such a brilliant guest.
23:39And many thanks to you all for tuning in.
23:41Be sure to come back and join us again at the same time
23:44next week.
23:45Until then, that's all from us.
23:47Goodbye.