Scotland international Pat Nevin joins Scotsman sports editor Mark Atkinson and chief football writer Alan Pattullo to unveil his greatest starting 11 from the past 50 years
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00:00Welcome back to our special Scotsman football show where Pat Nevin names his greatest XI
00:18from the past 50 years of Scotland players. We know who is in goal and the back four for
00:24the match against Germany on Friday.
00:27Now for the midfielders then, so I'm going to go to a position that you'll know all too
00:32well, the right side of midfield, the right wing.
00:34Right wing, so we'll do the right wing next. I don't even think there's a debate on this
00:42one. I really don't. Again, it's my position, I've watched players all through my career
00:51playing in that position and there are very, very few that are geniuses and Jimmy Johnson
00:58was a genius and he was an absolute genius. Now the length of time he played wasn't as
01:04long as other people. There were certainly not as many Scotland caps. We have to remember
01:10back then there was an odd dynamic, a Celtic Rangers thing, there certainly was an odd
01:17dynamic then and the fact that he got, I don't know how many caps, you'll tell me.
01:2223 caps.
01:23I get more caps than Genki. See that's a joke, that's just a joke. And I'll tell you something
01:28about number of caps, don't gauge ever by number of caps because it was much harder
01:33to get caps years ago because there was less games, fewer games. But Genki, when I said
01:38to somebody recently, they were asking me about favourite players and best players that
01:42I'd watched, I said obviously Jimmy Johnson. To annoyingly being English, he said, who?
01:49And I said, I watch, I've got this thing, I watch every player and I kind of deconstruct
01:55what they do and their technical abilities and their styles and their ways to beat people
01:59particularly. Genki had some of his skills on Messi, he had some of his skills and that's,
02:05you kind of get higher praise than that. He's one of the best if not the best players I've
02:08played the game, argument over Maldon. But Genki had some of the skills, quite a few
02:13of them. Close balls, ball control, yeah, he had it, it was of that level. I learned
02:20more tricks from him than anyone else but couldn't do them as well as he could obviously
02:23because he was astonishing. But watch him destroy, I mean I'll show my age again here,
02:30I mean that was that European Cup semi-final in 1970. Watch him destroy a fantastic, filthy,
02:39Leeds team and he did, he destroyed them. Was he an inspiration to you? He was when
02:45he was younger, yeah he definitely was when he was younger but I was just seeing his best
02:51coming off his best and I was watching the new group come through at Celtic at the time
02:57and Danny and McGrane who were already mentioned, there was Louis McCarrie, there was George
03:02Connolly, there was a lot of good players coming through then. So I knew, right, he's
03:06special but I'm not going to try and bail it because you can't. There was other players
03:10that I thought, right, I'm going to try and be more, but at the time it was just the joy
03:14of seeing creative football, skills, beating people, doing it for the love of it and you
03:22can watch Jinkie and not think that. You really couldn't. So I mean, throw a couple
03:26of names at me and I'll bat them away if you like. I think it's an unarguable Jimmy Johnson
03:32and I'm quite excited to have a former Dundee player in this team. Of course, he's like
03:36pre-Everton. It took him 40 minutes I think to get Dundee in there. But a greatest ever
03:42Celtic player, you can't ignore the greatest ever Celtic player, can you? Jimmy Johnson
03:46was voted as 23 caps, as we said, four goals, six caps in 1974, I think those were his last
03:56caps. So he very much was on the way out in 1974, wasn't he? And it did end in slight
04:02ignominy, I think that's fair to say, over a drinking session in Oslo. He had a few there.
04:08Yeah, he did have a few. Perhaps that adds to his greatness in a way. We're talking about
04:12Scotland players and Jimmy Johnson had that dash of devilment, didn't he? Oh yeah, I mean
04:18I was very, very much the opposite of the kind of person I was. I used to look at people
04:23like that and go, can you not just behave a bit more and have a few less? I learned as
04:29I got older, there were certain players, one will mention in a minute, you take that devilment
04:34away and you take something away from the game. There are people like that and Jinkie
04:39was definitely one of them. Yeah, absolutely. Can you think about any other options for the right?
04:45I think it's quite interesting that we look at wingers now, right-side wingers, and we
04:51think, why is Scotland not producing enough players like that? Because obviously back
04:57in the 60s and 70s we had one of the world's best. And I also think, I look at wingers
05:03now and people with skills and tricks and pace like that, they're the most attractive
05:06players for youngsters to watch and potentially be inspired by. But in this country we definitely
05:11have had a dearth of those. And of course, some Scotland teams now don't play with wingers.
05:18Some teams are getting their width from their full-backs and wing-backs. So it's almost
05:22like a lost trade in some respects. I think if you were to put someone, I'd be fascinated
05:26to see if you put someone like Jimmy Johnson in modern day football, how would he get on?
05:30And how would he be played? How would he be deployed? Oddly, in very modern football,
05:35very well he would get on. Because there is a resurgence now. If you look down at some
05:40of the best players that people want to see. I mean, Foden down south, he's not a winger,
05:46but he'll play inside. Remember David Silva was playing down there. There are certain
05:50players down there that, the old idea of sticking you in the wing. You could be the best form
05:55of your life. See if nobody gives you the ball, you're stuffed. So, Jinkie or somebody
05:59like that, you wouldn't be a winger. You would move in. You would be more creative and you
06:04would be a 10 or an 8 or whatever. And you had an ability to float. So they would get
06:10on okay now. You have a look at the past 10, 15 years. Xavi, Iniesta, Messi. These people,
06:18they're tiny, but they were skilful. And the game is a wee bit more protected. I mean,
06:24I was at the very famous game where Celtic played at Atletico Madrid. And it was assault
06:30after assault after assault after assault. Not just Jinkie, but others as well. You never
06:35forget things like that. He just got on with it most of the time. Even though he knows
06:39that he's going to get assaulted again. And it wasn't a wee hard tackle. It was vicious.
06:45So, the bravery of the man as well. He would have been, certain players, I had a great
06:51one recently, somebody said to me. Players wouldn't get into the modern team. We were
06:56talking about Liverpool earlier and I thought, you're right, the game's moved on. Oh yes,
06:59it's moved on. So would Hansen get a game in the current team? Oh yeah, apart from Hansen.
07:05And then they kept on naming him. Yeah, apart from him. Ian Rush. Oh yeah, apart from him.
07:09And you kind of have to understand that real world class players in their era, you can't
07:15help when you were born. So I'm trying to be as fair as I can over that. I might have
07:20certain rose down to spectacles, but I'm trying to be as fair as I can. You're right
07:24Pat, to do what Jimmy Johnson did in that era and as you say, the amount of punishment
07:30you got from other players and the lack of protection from referees, it really was something
07:34very special. I'd hate to see the state of his shins at the end of a match. But you talked
07:40about, you're almost embarrassed to think you've got more caps for Scotland. Oh yeah,
07:45almost. You've got one more goal as well. I think Jimmy Johnson got four goals, you've
07:49got five, is that right? But you're right, there's different eras. I just wouldn't compare
07:54them. Everyone does. It's a big thing we do in the modern game, everyone compares stats
07:57all the time. They tell you nothing. They tell you a vague ball thing. Oh he scored
08:02X amount of goals, yeah, but that was Estonia and Malta. It's different, it really is different.
08:08So I don't take anything from that at all. Look at the quality of the player. We're talking
08:13about that, we've not even mentioned Weestrack. Gordon is an amazing player. Yeah, exactly.
08:18Absolutely brilliant, yeah, Dundee again. But a really, really, really special player.
08:24But in actual fact, it's hard to look past Genki. Yeah, well it's interesting because
08:28Gordon features highly in our top 50, top 10. Rightly so. Yeah, absolutely, top 6 in
08:33fact. But again, that feeds into the fact that we're talking about the last 50 years,
08:38Jimmy Johnson's very much at the end of his Scotland career. In 1974, you know, the 50
08:45years encompassed. If it wasn't what they'd done for Scotland, it's a different thing.
08:49The question I'm, I've had to focus the way I'm looking at it, if I had these players
08:54at their best, where would I put them? What team do I want to put out? And I'm putting
08:58out a team that's going to... You said you wanted to go for them as well. Yeah, exactly.
09:03Okay, right-sided centre mid. Right, unbelievably difficult, this one. Really, really difficult.
09:11There's so many. This man in front of me, Gary McAllister, really special for a long
09:17period of time. I think we're in a period at the moment where John McGinn, he's pretty
09:22spectacular, good for his... Slightly different position from one of two midfielders, although
09:27he can do that and often does it for Villa. Yeah, and did it earlier in his career as
09:31well. He was one of those players that could be strong enough to sit in that team and field
09:35and dominate. And do you know the joy of watching John coming through? You know, at that time
09:39I was watching his coach, he had us every week, and you just, you're just smiling at
09:44what he was doing. Did you think he'd be as good as he is? I told plenty of people down
09:50south. I remember the day, I was on BBC Radio 5 Live in Villa Bottom, and it's a classic
09:58one, they just don't know what they're getting at. And they asked me, what about this young
10:03lad, John McGinn? And I said, and I remember my phrases, Villa fans, you don't know it
10:09yet. Of course, Villa are in the Championship as well, isn't it? I said, you don't know
10:14it, you've just signed your new favourite player, and you don't know it yet. And they
10:18were going, really, really? I'm like, yes, I know this thing. It's not that I'm spectacularly
10:24knowledgeable and everything, I'd watched enough of the kid coming through. I remember
10:29Chelsea, I was working a lot with Chelsea at the time, and they were looking a wee bit
10:34but not really interested. And I'm thinking, actually Villa would be a better call for
10:38him. I think he made the best call in the world. I think you've maybe put over a face
10:44there, someone who might actually be talked about too. Fletch. I didn't like that strip
10:49by the way. For attitude, I don't think you'll get a better Scotland player. For pure attitude.
10:58And he'll tell you himself, a very, very, very Scott McTominay as well. Very, very similar
11:08in ways. But I have to go on to the ones I'd really strongly consider. Right, go on, I'll
11:14give you another chance. Go on, throw in who you'd be considering. I mean, the argument
11:18between Barry Ferguson or somebody. Barry as well, yeah. He's an exceptional player,
11:23I still remember watching him. Almost rule Wembley, that play-off game in 1999, the second
11:31leg, which Scotland did win 1-0. I thought Barry Ferguson just was supreme, that really
11:38came with age I think. Head up, played with his head up, I loved that. And just imperious
11:43and loved watching him. Again, didn't play in an era when Scotland were particularly
11:49successful, but really did give everything to the cause. And in the same way as Fletcher
11:55did, Darren Fletcher, 80 caps. He really became one of a stalwart after being brought
12:02in by Bertie Vogts I think. You mentioned Darren Fletcher, I'm going to go back to him,
12:05because I think you're thinking, oh, there's definitely a reason to be biased. But I look
12:09at Darren Fletcher's career, and also what he had to battle through. He won the European
12:13Cup, and he was a linchpin of a really successful United team. And we're talking about a right-sided
12:20central midfielder who could do a bit of everything. He could score goals, he could defend, he
12:23had an engine. And I know that there's probably, again, I'm looking at players that I've watched
12:28in my lifetime, I don't see many better than Darren Fletcher to play in that midfield role.
12:34And actually when you talk about a 4-4-2, I think Darren could do that, because I think
12:38he had a bit of everything. But I know you're going to come out with somebody else. Again,
12:42this is where we talk about that era, what we're used to. Again, Darren, you would always
12:48want him on your team, if you get your team with him in it. And to be honest, early in
12:52his career, he was seen as a bit of a water carrier, but he was much more than that. And
12:57as his career went on, he became more and more and more of a player. And any player
13:01who improves, improves throughout their career. It's amazing how many don't. They get to a
13:05bit and then they stay there, and it's a high level. He improved and improved and improved
13:09all the way through it. But I'm afraid it's none of them. You can't ignore Souness. You
13:18can't ignore them. There was a period of time, Italy, playing in Liverpool. If you
13:26actually had a name for Scotland's team, and he was available and you didn't pick him,
13:31they'd get the psychiatrist to have a wee look at you. You need something hard in there,
13:36controlling in there. Could score as well. Okay, another one of the ones you say, what
13:41did he do for Scotland? Look, I'm playing against Germany. I need somebody who's got
13:46all the rounded capabilities. And he had it fiercely competitive, doesn't even touch
13:53it. And although some people don't like him or whatever, you don't want to be liked when
14:00you're in that position. Certainly in that game. And there was a long period where I
14:06think most people felt that top clubs in the world would all take him. Yeah, genuinely
14:11world class, isn't he? Number two in our top 50, I'm glad to say. If you didn't put
14:17him in, you would. Not even anyone with a certain age, he just looked stupid. Yeah,
14:22absolutely. Three World Cups, played in three World Cups. Football Writers Dinner a couple
14:29of weeks ago, Graeme was there, spoke about, you do wonder what might have happened if
14:35he'd played in that last game against Uruguay. He'd have been sent off. Probably. It would
14:42have been 10 v 10. Rightly. But yeah, you do wonder what might have happened. Strangely
14:48he was chopped for that game by Alex Ferguson, if you know what I'm saying. And Graeme was
14:52talking about it at this dinner when he was making this speech and he said, absolutely
14:57no complaints with Alex Ferguson because he was suffering terribly with food poisoning
15:01and he just couldn't do what was required that evening against Uruguay. But a real case
15:09of what might have been if Graeme had been there against the Uruguayans. As you've suggested
15:15Pat, absolutely just a wonderful, wonderful talent, so much skill, but knew how to behave
15:21himself. The other side of it, yeah. The other side of it. There's been a lot of hard men
15:25in the game, but weren't they as hard as they pretended to be? He was. See I think
15:31as soon as, I think in my era, as a manager and a pundit, I think that it's quite sad
15:36when you talk about players of a certain generation that you never saw and you hear people talk
15:42so oddly about them and you wonder, if I'd watched them for 15, 20 years, what would
15:46I think of them? But no, I think, I don't think you're going to have any arguments with
15:51what Graeme says. Perhaps your harder task is deciding who goes next to him. It is unbelievably
15:57hard because we've named a whole bunch of them already, none of whom I'm going to choose.
16:04I wondered if John Collins might feature for you. John may be considered wider, so we've
16:11got a left wide midfield. John could play in the central midfield as well, but in actual
16:18fact it comes down to two. One, I think, blindingly obvious, and the other less so.
16:25The blindingly obvious is Paul McTighe. Hart was, again, had he gone down south and all
16:34the rest of the work that he could have had, he could have chosen Man United or Liverpool
16:37or Arsenal, he could have done what he liked, no problem at all. But he controlled games.
16:43We're talking about people controlling games. Goalscoring, don't know how many he scored
16:47for Scotland, I don't know what his cap numbers are. 76 caps, 9 goals. Midfielder, controlling
16:55games, 1 in 7 for a central midfield controlling player. Again, not renowned at all for a tackler.
17:03Not renowned for having any great pace, yet he controls games. We have got a player, another
17:12Celtic player playing in the central midfield right at this moment, playing for Scotland
17:16who is just as important. In a similar way. I do look at various players and when you
17:24play alongside players you know when they're real, real quality. I'll be honest with you,
17:29over the years there's players I've thought are good players. Very, very few I think,
17:34oh you're special. We always called him Hart, but Paul was very, very, very special for
17:41a long time. Because you can't be that, I wouldn't call him slow, but he wasn't quick.
17:47And not known as a tackler, yet completely known to control games. Not only domestically,
17:54in Europe, and internationally as well. Paul was a really great one.
17:58Yeah, well you mentioned the goalie, Andy Gorham being dubbed the goalie, I think the
18:02public's day was knowing Celtic fans, particularly the Maestro. You don't get that name without
18:07being pretty special do you? Yeah. And here's the bad news, he's not getting in.
18:15Oh it's torture. I don't know, it's a toss up, right, and this is maybe, there will always
18:21be one that people go, oh what? Are you joking? And this will be my, what are you joking player?
18:29Alright, you're not even going to have a guess are you? I'm scared to, I'm looking on this
18:34board here and seeing that there could be somebody that might. I don't think he's here.
18:37No, no, no. I think it will surprise a lot of people. And, no, again, because I watched
18:45football a lot when I was younger, and I was always utterly gobsmacked by one player when
18:52I watched. And people forget, 1974 who was Scotland's captain? Oh, I'm going to embarrassingly
18:59say I don't know Alan. I think it was this David Haye. And David Haye, watched him play,
19:07he would play, at that time, every single top club wanted him. He ended up going to
19:12Chelsea, everybody wanted him. He turned down Arsenal, everybody knew how good he was. Within
19:18the game, everybody knew. Left back, right back, centre back, straight back, centre midfield,
19:24didn't matter. Just didn't matter, at all. There's very, very few players like that, that you
19:30just think, I'll stick you anywhere mate. Understated, again, I have to admit, hard as nails.
19:36But, one of these guys, one of the big things about playing football, you want to play with
19:41players that don't give the ball away. Never give the ball away. Made it look effortless
19:46sometimes. And I would say of all the players I've picked today, he'll be the most underestimated.
19:53I think a lot of eyebrows would go up and say, what? In front of Paul McStay? Or whatever.
20:00It's a big, big, big, big call. Then he got the injuries.
20:0627 caps, World Cup in Germany as you said, and obviously a serious knee injury.
20:13Eye injury, dislocated retina, had a big effect on his game.
20:19Again, there are some players that you watch that, not under the radar, because he was
20:25an international, I think he was the captain for that squad, but he was certainly vice-captain
20:29or whatever. But everybody wanted him, and everybody knew how good he was.
20:36David, big call, and it's painful to put him in front of Paul McStay, and John McGinn,
20:45and all those others. But in that I'm going to have four attacking players up there.
20:50I need a bit of power. And if I've got David Haye, and I've got Souness, I'm alright.
20:57You're going to win that midfield battle?
20:59I think so.
21:00I wonder if you might have given the game away then about your left-sided or left-winger
21:05when I mentioned John Collins. I heard you talk about John Collins earlier, and obviously
21:09hold him in high regard. Having picked Souness and Haye in that midfield, is he an obvious
21:15man to go wide left, or is he one of many?
21:18He's one of many. He's one of many, many. I actually think it's one of the toughest
21:23positions to pick. First of all, for the first time I'm going to choose a player who's
21:30outside the list.
21:32We were waiting for this. It's only taken us to that point.
21:36As I say, as a wide player and an attacking player, I would always try and work out everyone's
21:41trick. Their best tricks. There were two players whose tricks I could never get. One was Tam
21:45Burns. I couldn't figure out, he didn't seem to do anything. He just glided and people
21:51would fall over and he just walked by. Another player who wasn't quite that beautiful footballer.
21:56But in actual fact, John Robertson of Nottingham Forest. Now, his trick was ridiculous, because
22:06he would just walk up to you. You're thinking, the way you look. You can't go from a stand
22:12and start. I tell every attacking player, if I'm coaching anyone, you need to be moving.
22:18Because when you're moving, he's moving backwards and if he tries to go to you, you've got the
22:22advantage. Not Robbo. No, I'll be stationary. And then I'll wait for you to move and I'm
22:27gone. He was extraordinary for a period of time. But not a huge amount of caps, it has
22:32to be said.
22:3328 caps, John Robertson.
22:36Basically made the goal in the European Cup final for Nottingham Forest. If you ask anybody
22:41like Croffey and all the rest, you'd just think he was a genius. And because he didn't
22:45look the right part and he was sitting on a flag and all that stuff. All that stuff
22:50almost plays into the Scottish thing. Weird, different. If you met him in a pub, drinking
22:57a beer and having a fag, you wouldn't be surprised. It's one of them. What a talent. But I'm not
23:03picking on him.
23:05Giants, he's another one as well.
23:07David Cooper, we spoke about.
23:10Really a very special talent, I think. But the argument possibly is he didn't quite do
23:16it enough for Scotland. Again, didn't 22 caps over an 11 year span.
23:22I remember one game playing.
23:2413 years actually.
23:26Again, some players didn't always want to be available. I'm not sure Cooper always wanted
23:31to be available. I remember one game, some people might remember it, playing for Scotland
23:36against the Republic of Ireland. We had to win at Hampden Park. They beat us 1-0. I was
23:42in one wing, Cooper was in the other wing. Honestly, we must have put in about 40 grosses.
23:47Cooper was slinging them in from everywhere. He was a genius player and a fabulous player
23:54to watch. At the time, after Rangers, you ask any Rangers fan about him, they'll tell
24:00you all that sort of stuff. Even when he goes to Motherwell, he's just incredible when he's
24:06there. I have to say, I'm utterly struggling with this one.
24:12Are there any others? You're jumping out there.
24:15Because those three alone, I'm finding very difficult.
24:18It's funny because I think wrongly of John Collins, but I could see him in central midfield
24:25If I was picking my left winger, I would go with David Cooper because I think he was outstanding.
24:31Not of my era, but actually somebody that I've watched enough clips of to go, my goodness,
24:37you would have been a tremendous addition to the current Scotland's set-up. You just
24:41have to talk to people who watched him. They speak very fondly of him. That's probably
24:48where I would go. I also like my wingers to be very across the ball and actually whip
24:54that ball. That's where I would go. But I'm not the manager.
25:00A Brazilian in a Scotsman's body, I think, describes David Cooper as...
25:05How many are described like that?
25:07Not many Scots.
25:08But I've got a feeling Pat's going to go somewhere else.
25:12No, it's extraordinarily tough. Names keep on absolutely jumping into my mind.
25:19And I think we can't ignore Fadi.
25:22Okay.
25:23Fadi is considered by many as a striker.
25:28Fadi would disagree with me. He would come through at Motherwell when I was there as
25:33I finished my career and as chief exec. Fadi was better running with people.
25:38He could do the job holding up and being a 10 and all that as well. Very, very good
25:42at that as well. But see Fadi with the ball in a wide area. He was extra, extra special
25:48as well. And maybe in another time, in another era, Fadi would have been stuck out there.
25:54He wouldn't have moved more central. He went there particularly when he was at Everton.
25:58It's also given Scotland fans of a certain generation one of their greatest ever moments
26:04which can't be discounted either when you're so iconic.
26:08I'm all over the place for this one, I have to say. I almost want three of us to have
26:14a vote on it. They're so different.
26:17They are different. I suppose it's what you're looking for from your left winger in such
26:21a game. Was McFadden more mercurial than Cooper?
26:26At the moment, in all seriousness, if it was during my career, I would give it to Cooper
26:34probably because I've got an attack mind inside. John Collins was probably my favourite player
26:38I played with in my Scotland career. My favourite to play with. That's how highly I rated John.
26:44But I'm going to give it to Fadi.
26:47I like that, I like that. As you say Mark, he really was another Tartan Army totem figure
26:55wasn't he? He really gave Scotland fans of a certain age to cling on to and gave such
27:01excitement. The goal against France...
27:05Hold as well, the goal against Holland as well.
27:07Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
27:09Let's not talk about second leg.
27:10It didn't go so well in the second leg. A great solo goal, I remember at Hamden against
27:15Macedonia, one of the great goals ran from his halfway line I think.
27:21His numbers are great, they're fine.
27:23Absolutely, absolutely. We talked earlier, we like that Scottish, we went missing one night
27:31didn't we, on the Scotland tour?
27:33After a night out in Hong Kong. I think that quite appeals to the Tartan Army as well.
27:37We have that dash of devilment as we mentioned earlier.
27:42It's interesting that he, there's an era, almost like a no man's land for Scotland,
27:48the Scotland national team. We talked with Darren Fletcher, he was part of that one.
27:53I wondered if anybody from that era would actually trouble the team because it's actually
27:58a maligned era, we didn't achieve very much. It speaks volumes for James McFadden that
28:04he was in such a difficult time for Scotland yet...
28:10I think you've nailed that and that's in my thinking as well. You can't choose when you
28:16were born, you can't choose when you were playing. Sometimes you just find yourself
28:22in the wrong systems. I played for Scotland and we played 3-5-2, there was no winger.
28:29Thanks, I'm not going to get many games. Because you think, unless you play me up front,
28:34and as we'll get to in a moment, we've had a few good strikers over the years.
28:39I'll be honest with you, these have all been hard, but I think leaving Paul McStay out
28:47and leaving John Collins and Koops, I think they've hurt me more than anything else in this.
28:55Those three have really hurt. They're on the bench, but they've hurt.
28:59I think it would be interesting to see if you put 10 people in and asked them, and I think
29:03you'd find there would be more people with McStay and Collins, but that doesn't make it
29:09the wrong call far from it.
29:10And they're mates of mine, and they're people I've played with, so it's not a bias in any way whatsoever.
29:15You just think, what do I need for this team?
29:18They'll have a big bench, Pat.
29:20It just needs to be.
29:21So, we talked about embarrassment of riches in the last four positions, maybe even the
29:26last nine positions we talked about, but Scotland fans of a certain generation, in particular
29:31my generation, will look at the next two positions, the Strikers, and go, where do we start?
29:36There's so few options, but actually when you go back further, there are plenty.
29:42I wonder though, was this perhaps the easier decisions to make in terms of who to be your front two?
29:47Upsettingly, yes. It is easy, and I think some of our watchers and listeners will be ahead of us
29:53slightly here.
29:54Look, I can remember, I prefer being sent forward, but I'm playing, and I've got Brian
30:01McClure, and I've got Coystie, and I've got Morris Johnson.
30:07I could actually just go on for ten minutes probably.
30:10We had a number of Strikers for a long period there, and before it.
30:15You go to Joe Jordan, totally iconic as well.
30:19You mentioned earlier Paul Sturrock, I don't know, we didn't mention him in talking about
30:23wingers, but where would Paul Sturrock feature as possibly could have been a Striker?
30:28Paul Sturrock, had it not for one specific individual, would have got an awful lot of
30:35caps for Scotland, and there was a period at the time with Dundee United where I thought
30:39he was really pushing on towards world class, which is amazing because another player who
30:46not thought of him in those terms because he'd never played for the old firm and all
30:49that sort of stuff, but in actual fact for the technical player that he was, and consider
30:55his real genius was he'd get the ball slightly deep almost to the ten, and turn on it, and
31:01dummy, and those days they'd just come right through him, and he got that time and time
31:06and time again, but he got up, he got on with it.
31:10Another player I think, if you're from Dundee, you get it, because you've watched it all
31:15the time, but out with that I don't know if people knew how brilliant he was, I really
31:21do think he was a brilliant, brilliant player.
31:23I think the fact that he featured at recent BBC series of programmes, sort of cult heroes
31:28I think, or icons, or cult heroes, but you know, Paul Sturrock was one of those and you
31:32think yeah, he possibly was a cult hero, but possibly should be more because he did obviously
31:40play, got to the European Cup semi-final, did so well with Dundee United, but yeah,
31:46might have benefited from going elsewhere, but yeah, Jim McLean wouldn't let him, would
31:51he?
31:52Exactly, and I nearly fell into that one myself, because I nearly said he was for Dundee United
31:55when I was younger!
31:56You'd still be there now!
31:58But he's a beautiful player, brave, not hugely tall, but sadly there was a player in the
32:05same position as him, who was maybe a wee bit better!
32:09That's just the upsetting situation!
32:11And that man would be?
32:12Oh, come on, Kenny.
32:13Kenny, you know Kenny.
32:14And of course, the joy of Kenny, if you, I mean basically if we were through this and
32:19I didn't put Kenny on the team, you wouldn't show this!
32:24Because he wouldn't go out!
32:25Right, and rightly so, but if you looked at me, again, there's no bias, because there
32:33is no bias, but I watched him break into the Celtic team, I used to go and watch him
32:37play in the reserves, just before he got through, and then just thinking, wow, the stuff he
32:43used to do there!
32:45And it was amazing, the time at Celtic was amazing, he gets the 100 caps for Scotland,
32:51then he goes to Liverpool, changes as a player, technically changed, what I found, I found
32:58him a more exciting player at Celtic than he was at Liverpool.
33:02Did he have more restrictions at Liverpool?
33:04Why was that?
33:05Because he's super intelligent, and he got rid of the edges a wee bit, and just done
33:12the right things all the time.
33:14Whereas I like the edges, you know the faddy edges, where you'll do something a bit daft?
33:19Nah, no, Kenny did everything right.
33:22If there's a ball on, you'll find it.
33:24He's creating for you, he's scoring for you, he's controlling everything.
33:29There was, honestly, a backside that's never been seen since, well, until John McGinn.
33:35And it was true.
33:37That trick that John's got, that's just one of Kenny's.
33:41He had a whole bunch of others as well.
33:43Left and right foot.
33:45You could tell your stories all day, but I mean, Kenny, the day he scored the winner
33:50as player manager at Liverpool to win the league, I was quite in a miff because I was
33:57only 10 yards away at the time.
33:59Because I was trying to get back to Zagreb, because we were playing down at Stamford Bridge
34:02for Chelsea.
34:03And you remember things like the European Cup winner's goal, the dink.
34:07To have that well with all, in the biggest moment, in a terrible game, with all the pressure
34:13on, and I'm going to dink.
34:16Beautiful.
34:17You go through the career, the numbers, everything, there is no argument at all.
34:21And really sort of relayed the joy of football, I think.
34:24You talk about that goal against Bruges in the 1978 European Cup final, wasn't it?
34:29Even the way he celebrated it, didn't he?
34:31He ran off and jumped over the hoardings at Wembley and just absolutely radiated joy,
34:36the joy of football.
34:38And for someone like myself, very much my era, a young seven, eight-year-old getting
34:43into football, I have to say Kendall Leash was the reason I'm sitting here, probably,
34:47because he made me fall in love with football.
34:49And he is, in fact, he was the first, he scored the first goal I saw with my own eyes.
34:56Anfield, I was taken down to Anfield for a treat to see Liverpool against West Bromwich
35:01Albion, 1982, April 1982.
35:04And he scored the winner and I won the win for Liverpool.
35:07Sticks with you.
35:08Yeah, absolutely sticks with you.
35:10And just a wonderful player and I'm glad to say number one.
35:15I don't think there's much debate, is there?
35:17No.
35:18The complete package that we have.
35:20You talked earlier about how some players, you can only just have careers when it's finished.
35:25Would anyone from Scotland get close to what Kenny has achieved in terms of his numbers,
35:30his style of play, his reputation, his iconic nature?
35:35It's hard to see anyone getting close.
35:37It's really bordering on impossible.
35:39I remember, he used to be sometimes a little bit midfieldy in his early days,
35:44but he could be wide midfield, he could be tent, which he was best at.
35:48Striker, absolutely no problem at all.
35:50Every part of it, he would not only play one version of that,
35:54he would play three or four different versions of that.
35:56And you just thought, ugh, really?
35:59Is there anything you can't do?
36:00There was a period of time, I remember watching a period of time,
36:03particularly the early days at Celtic, but he did the same at Liverpool.
36:05He used to score the same goal.
36:07Remember the one against Spain?
36:09The one where he slew into the corner.
36:12Celtic fans are going...
36:14Yeah, we watch it every week.
36:16And he did it every week.
36:18Now you look at it now, and you see that goal scored quite a lot now.
36:21Particularly in the English Premier League, there's a lot of players.
36:25They'll score maybe one or two, unless they're Mo Salah.
36:28One or two a season.
36:29Kenny was bringing them in all over the place all the time.
36:32On the touchline, I remember I gave him a goal against Belgium,
36:35it was a lovely goal.
36:36He danced along the byline, in the top corner.
36:40Yeah, just an absolutely extraordinary child.
36:44It takes nothing away from the fact that,
36:46and then add what he did afterwards.
36:48Yeah.
36:49I mean, you talk about the player-manager thing, goodness.
36:52Coming into a really difficult time at Liverpool,
36:55and to become player-manager,
36:57and winning the double, I think it was, wasn't it?
36:591966, with that goal you mentioned against Danford Bridge.
37:03I think he chested it down and volleyed it in, didn't he?
37:05That was Royal Rovers.
37:07Everything about his career, he has got the perfect Royal Rovers career.
37:11You just sit there.
37:12I'm at his 100th cap I've played.
37:16And this is the weird bit.
37:17So somebody you've sat and watched as a kid,
37:19and you're amazed by it, and you think it's amazing,
37:21you're fantastic, you're learning so much off him,
37:23and then suddenly,
37:24alright, I've got the ball, where's Kenny?
37:27And we all gave the ball to Kenny that night,
37:30because he needed one more goal to be Scotland's outright top goalscorer.
37:35And he never got the goal that night.
37:37Kenny was near the end of his career,
37:39and we'd done everything to get him a goal that night.
37:42It was a 3-0 win, I think.
37:44I think it was Franz Beckenbauer was in the crowd.
37:46That's right.
37:47He presented Kenny with an award for his 100th cap, wasn't it?
37:51Wearing a long brown trench coat, I remember, Franz Beckenbauer.
37:54Yeah, I still remember, they've got the poster,
37:56had the poster up.
37:58I don't know if it's in my mind, it was my first game,
38:00I was in my debut that day.
38:01It was your debut.
38:02Yeah, it was my debut that day.
38:04It's a wonderful, wonderful thing.
38:06Honestly, we could go on forever and ever about Kenny,
38:08but all he'd done afterwards.
38:10I was 10 yards away from him when he chucked it at Liverpool.
38:14I was playing in that game, Everton against Liverpool.
38:174-4.
38:18And the shock of everyone in the game is,
38:21it can't happen, Kenny can't go away.
38:24And it was extraordinary.
38:27Programs have been done, books have been written about Kenny,
38:30and rightly so, and he is officially number one pick in this team.
38:36Undisputed.
38:37But still needs some more.
38:39I say, could we just go with 10 and let him go on his own?
38:42No, we need another one in there.
38:45I mean, not many candidates from my era to even get close to that.
38:50I'm wondering, does Joe Jordan get in there?
38:54The number nine, you're looking for the number nine, aren't you?
38:58The only one I could think of that would maybe come close from guys that I watch
39:01would be someone like Ali McCoy, but I think Joe Jordan probably would be ahead of him.
39:06But we'll see what we draw on.
39:08Even Kenny Miller perhaps deserves a mention.
39:11You think about his stats, 69 caps for Kenny,
39:18and I think it was 19 goals, 18 goals.
39:21Again, not a stellar Scotland team, but he scored against some stellar sides.
39:26Germany, Italy, a great goal against England at Wembley.
39:29It's funny, the stats, they're great stats for a Scotland striker.
39:34It's just not somebody that I could elevate anywhere close to the guys that I've mentioned.
39:39And that's really unfair because Kenny was such a hard-working forward.
39:42He played in games where he got no service.
39:46He was always there, and look at his playing career.
39:49Very, very strong.
39:50But for me, I wouldn't have him.
39:53Despite being a very good striker, I would keep getting goals.
39:56Yeah, you're right.
39:57The recent year, we've been discussing it long and hard the last few weeks,
40:02haven't we, in terms of Scotland going to Germany, striker.
40:05What would we do to have a Marcus Rashford,
40:08who's been considered surplus to requirements by Gareth Southgate at England?
40:12It just shows that we're not quite of the standard.
40:15It's been a problem for a while.
40:18Hardest job in the world.
40:19Scoring a goal at an international level, I would suggest.
40:23You'll find a lot of these players, if you look through this list,
40:26you'll be surprised how few of them have got double figures.
40:30Very, very few Scotland players.
40:32Which is what makes Kenny Miller's achievement so impressive.
40:35Absolutely.
40:36Emo Johnson, 14 goals in 38 games.
40:40But wow, what a player.
40:42Is he close to your team?
40:44Yeah, actually, yeah.
40:46Played with him.
40:48We played against each other when we were 10.
40:51We played for the school's association when we were 10.
40:54Went all through the career.
40:56Ended up together again at Everton and with Scotland as well.
41:00Emo's work ethic.
41:02He's got a great overhead kick at that ball.
41:04I can't remember who he was against.
41:06Great overhead kick for Scotland.
41:08Somebody would have been shouting at me just now.
41:10But no, Emo was fabulous at that.
41:14Him and Jockey, Brian McClare, were great together.
41:17Let's not ignore Charlie.
41:19Charlie Knick.
41:20Charlie, top 50.
41:21Did make a top 50.
41:22Again, what a wonderful player.
41:24You mentioned earlier, I think, players perhaps in different eras.
41:29They struggle to...
41:32The team they're playing with perhaps doesn't go with their qualities.
41:37Charlie Nicholas had that great decision to go to Liverpool or Arsenal
41:41at the time when he was scoring so many goals at Celtic.
41:44Chose Arsenal.
41:45A lot of people were thinking, if he'd gone to Liverpool,
41:47that might have been the wise choice.
41:49Playing with Kenny, possibly.
41:51And the new Kenny.
41:52He was seen as the next one to take over from Kenny.
41:55Which is a big call and a big ask.
41:57But hey, Charlie did well down there.
41:59We actually went down the same week.
42:01He went to Arsenal the same week as I went to Chelsea.
42:03It was weird because he took all the publicity.
42:05I'm going, yeah, you haven't, mate.
42:07But no, a really good player.
42:10We didn't have the same tastes, I don't believe, at the time.
42:15I think he was at nightclubs more.
42:17But hey, Charlie was a big character.
42:19And a big character in the squads we were in as well.
42:23But, you know, look, he's up against...
42:26In a way, he's up against Kenny.
42:28Because he's, you know, one off a striker.
42:31I mean, there's lots of mad...
42:33It feels as if you're dissing...
42:35You give no respect to certain guys
42:38who have been astonishing players for Scotland over the years.
42:42It really isn't that.
42:44But I'm afraid...
42:46Everyone's ahead of us.
42:48Aren't they? Come on.
42:50There can't be an...
42:52Yes, there can be an argument, but...
42:54Oh, you've got to...
42:56Yeah, well, that is the...
42:59For younger people out there, Dennis Law.
43:02Right.
43:05Right at the end of his time for this period.
43:07Yes, of course.
43:08I grant you, yes.
43:10I think it's only just squeezed in as well.
43:12It was maybe the last year of his Scotland career.
43:15He was 74.
43:17Yeah, I mean, look, an incredible forward.
43:19Incredible striker.
43:21What makes him stand out
43:23above guys that we've just talked about?
43:25Well, the younger people, I'd just say,
43:27have a look at his numbers.
43:29When he was playing.
43:31At the top level.
43:32The players he was playing with,
43:34he was up there with the best in the world
43:36at that time.
43:38You know, with Manchester United,
43:39then Man City afterwards,
43:40but Manchester United.
43:41It was extraordinary, his numbers.
43:43When he goes over to Italy,
43:46I don't think he was very happy over there.
43:48It didn't last a long time.
43:50But in all seriousness,
43:52sniffers of goals,
43:54I just saw a very late period of his career.
43:58There's an old phrase,
44:00we've never had a better national goal scorer.
44:02That's it.
44:03And I don't know if we've had a...
44:05In fact, I'll rephrase that.
44:06We've never had a better national goal scorer.
44:08Period.
44:09Now, maybe before that,
44:11maybe way back to the 30s,
44:13the 40s, the 50s, whatever.
44:15I didn't see them.
44:16I don't know.
44:17We've never had a more natural goal scorer than Dennis.
44:20Would you try and argue that?
44:22Was there anyone who'd come close?
44:24Coistad was a brilliant goal scorer.
44:26Ali McCoistad is the name I would throw up
44:30in terms of national goal scorer.
44:33Knowing where to be.
44:34Yeah, absolutely.
44:3661 caps, 19 goals.
44:38I think I might have seen the last striker
44:39to score in a major finals.
44:40In Switzerland?
44:41For Scotland, yeah.
44:42Well, there we go.
44:44Wrong game for us.
44:46Difficult to argue, obviously, with Dennis Law.
44:49Played three times in 1974,
44:52so kind of sneaks in.
44:53Sneaks in.
44:54He was taken to the World Cup by Willie Ormond, I think.
44:57Perhaps, I don't know,
44:59was that sort of an emotional decision,
45:02thinking perhaps that he deserved to go to the World Cup?
45:04I think you need the wild cards.
45:05And we've got wild cards this year.
45:07And we need wild cards now and again
45:09that, alright, we're stuffed.
45:11There's 25 minutes to go.
45:12Who's going to create our scoring goal first?
45:15And I mean, at that point as well,
45:17even his career probably on a downward trajectory,
45:20he still knew he had it.
45:22He's got it in his locker.
45:23It's not something a striker loses
45:25in an act to score goals.
45:26And as you say, there's so few.
45:28And that's a real lament of mine.
45:30Like when we talk about
45:32Kenny Dalglish and Dennis Law,
45:34and we're talking about
45:36maybe a 20, 30-year period
45:38where we've just not had anything like that
45:40in the four areas.
45:41And that's ultimately what quite often
45:43separates the top international teams
45:46from the good international teams.
45:47There have been teams that
45:49have not necessarily had that.
45:51I mean, I particularly like Shea Adams.
45:53Shea's numbers are not great
45:55and people look at his numbers,
45:56you know, not as in wonderful, right?
45:59But if I was playing now,
46:01I'd want to play behind him
46:03because he's creating everything for me.
46:05He's creating space.
46:06He's dragging people away.
46:07He's, you will get more goals
46:09if you're John McGinn
46:10if Shea Adams is in front of you.
46:11He works the centre-halves harder.
46:13Works them harder, draws space,
46:15intelligent runs,
46:16and will play you in as well.
46:18Very, very badly underrated
46:21by a lot of people
46:22just because the numbers.
46:24We want somebody who scores loads of goals.
46:26But in actual fact,
46:27the guys behind him,
46:28just ask any of them.
46:29They'll love him.
46:30Lawrence, we were just down there.
46:31Lawrence Shanklin to Pat.
46:32Obviously, talk about numbers,
46:33talk about natural goal scorers.
46:35Perhaps Lawrence has learned
46:37to become a natural goal scorer.
46:39I don't think he probably was
46:40at the start of his career,
46:41but it really does look like
46:42somebody who can take chances
46:45all around the box now.
46:47A lot of them are debating
46:48whether they should start
46:49against Germany.
46:50Tough one.
46:51Tough one.
46:52I would just go with
46:53Clarke's thoughts on it.
46:54Really.
46:55If he started,
46:56I would say, yeah, good.
46:57Fine with that.
46:58I actually think
46:59it's particularly difficult
47:01for a scorer,
47:03a striker scorer.
47:04He's got more of his game now.
47:05That other side of his game
47:06has worked well.
47:07But if you're a striker scorer,
47:08you will be judged
47:09if you score against Germany, right?
47:11You've got the best defender
47:13in the world marking you.
47:14Rudiger's the best defender.
47:16I'm not saying
47:17he's the best player.
47:18He's not the best player.
47:19He's the best marker
47:20there is in world football.
47:21And he's been for a long time.
47:23Watched him for years
47:24and years and years.
47:25The ball and the player
47:27never go by him.
47:28Ever, ever, ever, ever.
47:30It doesn't matter who you are.
47:31So it's going to be tough.
47:33Maybe it's better
47:34to have somebody
47:35who runs them,
47:36runs them, runs them,
47:37runs the lines,
47:38drags them away,
47:39pulls them away
47:40to allow that space.
47:41So people are saying
47:43start Lawrence.
47:44And I actually think
47:45maybe he's not the right one
47:47to start there.
47:48Maybe you need somebody
47:49to pull the Rudiger's
47:50away from him.
47:51It's no coincidence
47:53that Scotland's goals
47:55don't come from the forward line.
47:56That's right.
47:57And if we take away our 11,
48:00because this 11 is going to win
48:01the Euros.
48:02It's not just going to beat Germany.
48:03It's going to take the tournament.
48:05But when you actually look
48:06at how Scotland
48:07do get their goals,
48:08guys like Scott McTominay,
48:09John McGinn
48:10breaking into space,
48:11finding that.
48:13Shea Adams is a very
48:14underrated player.
48:15You look at the forwards,
48:16Shea Adams has moved
48:17for a lot of money.
48:18He's well regarded
48:20by clubs in England.
48:21He's out of contract.
48:22People will be looking at him
48:23because of those qualities
48:24that are different
48:25than what he offers.
48:26I've worked with players
48:27like that over the years.
48:28Like that.
48:29Their numbers aren't great.
48:31And I'm pleading with them
48:32to be in.
48:33I'm not saying it to the manager
48:34but I'm saying
48:35please play him this week.
48:36You know.
48:37And guys that wouldn't
48:38be very well known.
48:39If he's playing,
48:40I get space.
48:41My life gets much,
48:42much better.
48:43And this is coming back
48:44to the one thing
48:45that's away from players
48:46here as well.
48:47The coach has figured this in.
48:50Clarke has figured it.
48:52He's got so many good things
48:54that he's sussed
48:55what this team needs.
48:57And sometimes we
48:58raise our eyebrows
48:59and go,
49:00surely Shanklin scored
49:01or what are you doing
49:02doing that?
49:03And it's very rarely,
49:05maybe only one or two times,
49:07I've thought,
49:08I'm not sure about that one,
49:09Clarke.
49:10And usually it turns out
49:11he was right after all.
49:12But all managers
49:13make mistakes.
49:14All coaches make mistakes.
49:15The stuff that he's come out with,
49:17we take it for granted now.
49:18Yeah, absolutely.
49:19The whole Tierney-Robertson thing.
49:21To work that out.
49:23And now it looks
49:24the most natural thing
49:25in the world, doesn't it?
49:26And then when we're in trouble,
49:27them two go and fly up.
49:29And they've destroyed
49:30teams on their own
49:31because we have got that option.
49:33I was saying to a few people,
49:35I think what we need
49:36over in Germany
49:37is we need a pitch on a slant
49:39going down towards the left
49:40so the ball goes out left
49:41for us all the time.
49:42Because that's where
49:43we are unbelievably
49:44strongly created.
49:45And would you be comfortable,
49:47Steve,
49:48managing your 11,
49:50your Scotland 11
49:51for the last 50 years?
49:52I think you would be.
49:53I think Steve would be
49:54a good manager for that.
49:55Funnily enough,
49:56you need somebody
49:57who's absolutely respected, right?
49:59We've had some good
50:00Scotland managers over the years.
50:02And with Jock and Sir Alec,
50:05they're the best.
50:06With Jock and Sir Alec,
50:07they're the best in the business.
50:09And they absolutely
50:10were the best in the business.
50:11So, you know,
50:12you're talking,
50:13this is Ancelotti stuff.
50:14This is way up there
50:15in the world standards.
50:16So we've been lucky
50:17in that sphere.
50:18And Clarkie wouldn't
50:19do a bad job at all.
50:20He would love that.
50:23Well, Pat,
50:24that's quite a team,
50:25quite a job you've had
50:26in creating it.
50:27I hope you've had fun.
50:28I had fun
50:29and I look forward
50:30to the abuse
50:31or more importantly,
50:32the discussion
50:33and the debate.
50:34And to be honest,
50:36I was willing
50:37to be talked round
50:38on some stuff.
50:39And like you said,
50:40right at the top,
50:41ask me again tomorrow
50:42and one or two
50:43of them might change.
50:44Yeah, absolutely.
50:45And it does change,
50:46doesn't it?
50:47And what's your favourite album?
50:49What's your favourite album?
50:51Today?
50:52I'll go back to
50:53Closive by Joy Division today.
50:55But it could be
50:56something else tomorrow.
50:57Perfect.
50:58Well, Pat,
50:59thank you so much
51:00for joining us.
51:01It's been great
51:02to have you on.
51:03Thank you all
51:04for coming to the
51:05Scotsman Football Show.
51:06As you know,
51:07Euros are right upon us
51:08and we hope you're going
51:09to stay with the Scotsman
51:10every step of the way.
51:11We'll have the best coverage.
51:12Alan heading over to Germany
51:13to cover
51:14certainly the first
51:15three group matches
51:16and hopefully a few more
51:17will be on.
51:18From myself,
51:19Pat and Alan,
51:20it's goodbye for now.
51:21Thank you.
51:34.