Pat Nevin's Scotland XI
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 Hello and welcome to this very special edition of the Scotsman football show.
00:14 My name is Mark Atkinson, Sports Editor.
00:16 And today, I'm at McLaren's on the corner in the south of Edinburgh.
00:20 I'm joined by our Chief Football Writer, Alan Petillo, and
00:23 former Scotland international, Pat Nevin.
00:25 And we're here to discuss the Scotland team that we think should be playing
00:29 against Germany on June the 14th, the start of the Euros in Munich.
00:33 From the list of the greatest football players that we've compiled here in
00:36 the Scotsman.
00:37 Those of you that have been following the Scotsman's top 50 will be aware that we're
00:41 now at the end of the series.
00:43 And we've brought in Pat here to try and
00:45 perm down that group of players into a greatest 11.
00:49 I'm gonna hand over to Alan here because he was given the slightly daunting task,
00:53 I think, of making the long list of this top 50.
00:57 Talk us through how it was, Alan.
00:59 >> Yeah, it was difficult.
01:00 I empathize with Steve Clark's job a couple of weeks ago,
01:06 going through all the current players.
01:08 Of course, we had a greater span of history going back 50 years, back to 1974.
01:13 Thought that might be the easiest way of doing it.
01:16 A Scotland top 50 of the last 50 years,
01:19 obviously encompasses some pretty special Scotland teams.
01:23 Also encompasses a time when Scotland weren't.
01:27 As successful as they had been,
01:29 they went through quite a dip in fortunes, obviously in the early 2000s.
01:34 So, but we tried to be fair, still pick a few players from that era.
01:40 Players that helped drive perhaps not quite so stellar Scotland side forward.
01:46 I'm thinking to be like Darren Fletcher, who amassed a great number of caps.
01:51 Barry Ferguson, some very, very good more recent players.
01:54 But yeah, it was a tough job to curate this top 50.
02:00 I'm sure we've left ourselves exposed to a measure of ridicule.
02:04 >> I know you've been concerned about that.
02:06 When you kept saying to me, how can I make 50 players?
02:09 There's hundreds of internationalists I can pick from here.
02:11 I'm gonna miss somebody out.
02:12 But that's the beauty of it.
02:13 It's always argument, debate, and that's kind of why we're here.
02:18 >> Well, yeah, absolutely.
02:19 One of the players, obviously, that we came into, I think, and was sitting here.
02:22 But I thought we had to start.
02:23 We thought we couldn't pick Pat.
02:25 >> I'm not in it, right?
02:26 I'm off.
02:26 >> [LAUGH] >> But Pat is certainly bubbling under.
02:30 He's always bubbling under.
02:31 And a wonderful player.
02:32 And it's a real privilege to have Pat here in Edinburgh with us to go through
02:37 this list and provide his expertise, much greater than mine.
02:40 I think I was talking to you, Mark, prior about our first Scotland matches.
02:45 I think mine was back in 1989, the last ever Scotland v England game at
02:51 Hamden when it was an annual fixture.
02:54 And yeah, that was quite a debut for me, given the trouble afterwards,
03:01 which actually led to that game being,
03:03 that annual fixture being stopped for a great number of years.
03:07 So yeah, that was quite a debut.
03:10 I think Scotland lost that game 2-0, actually.
03:12 >> Thanks for mentioning I was playing.
03:14 >> Well, well.
03:14 >> [LAUGH] >> It must have been a great game.
03:17 >> Steve Bools scored a couple.
03:19 >> Steve Bools scored a couple.
03:20 Do you know one of the worst things of playing in games like that,
03:23 Scotland v England?
03:24 I hated them.
03:25 Because you play against people you know.
03:28 See, we play international games.
03:29 The real joy of it is playing against people who don't know your style.
03:33 Whereas, playing against England, is it Stuart Pearce again?
03:36 You know, I remember swapping strips after winning that game with their
03:41 centre forward, who was my roommate at my club.
03:43 You don't want that.
03:45 You actually want something different.
03:46 So I was delighted we stopped doing the Scotland v England games then.
03:49 Because they lost it.
03:50 >> Who was that?
03:51 >> Tony Cotty.
03:51 >> That was Tony, right.
03:52 Wonderful time, yeah.
03:54 Yeah, well that was, yeah, I'm kind of glad we had a breather from those
03:58 fixtures for a while.
03:59 Marks, your first game, I think, your first Scotland match.
04:01 >> I actually wondered if Pat was involved in this too.
04:03 A little bit later on than yours.
04:04 I can't remember the exact date, but it was Scotland against Sweden.
04:08 It was at Ibrox.
04:09 And John McGinley, I think, scored in a 1-0 win.
04:11 And I was a wannabe goalkeeper at that stage.
04:14 And I loved Jim Whelton.
04:16 And I'm pretty sure Jim put in an astonishing performance that night to
04:20 keep the Swedes at bay.
04:22 So Pat, put me out of my misery, were you in that team that night?
04:25 >> I would almost certainly have been in the squad.
04:26 But I didn't go on that night.
04:29 Because there was that period where we played all the games at Ibrox.
04:31 >> Yeah.
04:32 >> And it was wonderful because there were some games up Aberdeen as well.
04:36 Around about that time, because Hamden Park wasn't being used by us at the time.
04:41 But oddly enough, a lot of the ones I didn't play in,
04:45 they've kind of all grown together in my mind.
04:47 Because I was in loads of squads where I was on the bench.
04:50 Remember, there wasn't five subs back then.
04:52 There was two subs, and you didn't always use them.
04:55 And I had 60, 70 squads, but only got 28 caps in the end.
05:00 So probably was sitting watching, but the important thing to underline,
05:04 sitting watching, but not with a bottom lip out.
05:07 Always thinking, come on, lads, one team to win.
05:10 Don't care about anything else.
05:11 It's not about what your country can do for you.
05:15 It's what you can do for your country.
05:16 And that's what makes Scotland, and that's what makes the Tottenham Army special.
05:21 >> You never officially retired as a Scotland player, I take it?
05:24 >> Yes, and that's the kind of thing I always used to say this.
05:27 Because the idea was people say, I'm retiring now, and you get a big applause.
05:31 I'm going, how dare you?
05:33 It's when your country needs you.
05:35 And so if you asked me to do it, I'd do it.
05:37 But they stopped asking after a while.
05:40 >> Can you play right back?
05:42 >> Right back.
05:43 >> We can do with you this interview.
05:44 >> We'll be fine.
05:45 Stevie Clark will come up with an idea, don't worry about that.
05:48 >> Before we go into the team, I want to ask you what your
05:51 favorite Scotland memory is as a player.
05:54 >> As a player?
05:56 Well, if I can be really selfish about it, I played a game at Potaudry,
06:01 and we beat Estonia 3-1.
06:04 But unusually, I was allowed to play centre forward.
06:07 And considering all the great centre forwards, and
06:09 we'll talk about a lot of them today.
06:11 My position role was being centre forward.
06:13 I'd never played in a league before I turned pro.
06:15 So I was playing in my own position.
06:18 And all the Scottish press were giving it, what's he doing?
06:20 It was a forward.
06:22 But the fact that I scored one, no, actually I didn't,
06:26 scored two and made the other one.
06:28 I just thought, yeah, I can do it all right.
06:31 So I was kind of happy with that one.
06:33 Scoring for your country is fantastic, and winning them was a decent goal.
06:36 And also, the players around us that day, McStay, Johnny Collins,
06:40 Boydie, my mate Brian McClure.
06:43 When you've got a good bunch of people you got on well with.
06:46 So it's a very, very special night for me.
06:49 >> Fantastic, fantastic.
06:51 Yeah, no, it's interesting.
06:52 We're gonna come to, obviously, to Pat's 11, Pat's Scotland team.
06:59 I just wanted to ask you, Pat, about this current Scotland squad,
07:04 provisional squad that was named by Steve Clark.
07:07 And you were involved in that, weren't you?
07:08 You were on the decks in the great video reveal.
07:13 >> I thought it was a good video.
07:14 It was really fun.
07:15 I mean, laugh at me, please.
07:16 I expect to be laughed at when I'm DJing.
07:18 Funnily enough, I was DJing again the next night after it was released,
07:23 down in London.
07:23 But no, it was a really fun way to do it.
07:26 It's been interesting the way squads have given it out.
07:28 Over the years, it used to be just built by paper, giving it to the press guys.
07:33 And then over the years, you start seeing,
07:34 maybe the Brazilians used to do it on telly.
07:37 And they'd have cameras and people were bursting into tears and all the rest of it.
07:41 Maybe not the best direction to go, but that idea of putting it out with a kind
07:44 of what looks like a TikTok-y kind of video, it's a bit of fun.
07:48 Gets the information out there and leaves people with a wee bit of a smile as well.
07:52 I thought it was really well put together.
07:53 >> Yeah, it was, it was.
07:55 And well, going back to your, obviously, your love of music as well.
08:00 A top 50, I mean, I helped put this top 50 together, curated it with a,
08:06 not just me, but a few of our, a few minds were put together,
08:10 a few of us on the sports desk to come up with this list.
08:13 Ask me again tomorrow, and it'll change.
08:15 And even while I was typing it out, I was changing, changing names and
08:19 putting names above other names and thinking, my goodness, I've missed out so
08:21 and so.
08:22 And in the same way as if we're deciding our top ten albums,
08:28 that changes from day to day, doesn't it, Pat?
08:30 >> Yeah, I, I, when I'm doing TV stuff, and I've got a Zoom camera on me,
08:34 those albums behind me, right, change every week.
08:36 [LAUGH] I put them up on the wall, and this is exactly the same.
08:40 And I looked through the list and I thought,
08:42 there's probably one that I'd kind of discussed with you that isn't in, but
08:46 there could have been five, six, seven, eight.
08:49 In the end, it's an opinion.
08:51 >> Yeah. >> And it's, you know,
08:52 opinion of a number of people.
08:54 I think most of the, the, the most obvious names are definitely in that,
08:58 the ones that you would want to be in that.
08:59 So, I'll be honest with you, I didn't find any difficulty finding an 11,
09:04 other than keeping it to 11.
09:06 >> Yeah. >> There's a hell of a lot of good
09:07 players in that for me.
09:08 >> Yeah, yeah.
09:08 Well, I'm absolutely intrigued to find out what your 11 comprises, Pat.
09:12 And I, and I love the fact that you haven't, you haven't given us any kind of
09:15 inkling. >> Nope, nope.
09:16 >> So this is all, this is all as it happens, live.
09:19 And yeah, I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued just looking at this list of,
09:23 of some of the names I've, I've got down here,
09:25 whether they do feature in your, in your top 11.
09:27 I'm obviously, I'm very interested about the Go Keeper, for example.
09:29 I think you're, that's a work in progress.
09:31 You're still thinking about it.
09:31 >> I am. >> Yeah.
09:32 >> I'm, I'm going to have to make a decision.
09:34 >> Yeah. >> Very soon in that,
09:35 as in imminently on that one.
09:38 It's a tough one, a really tough one.
09:39 >> Yeah, yeah.
09:40 And obviously, just the eras, I mean, that's the difficulty as well, isn't it?
09:42 I mean, obviously, Scotland teams were, were, they've been better Scotland teams,
09:46 and, and not so good Scotland teams, hasn't they?
09:48 And we're thinking back to 1974, which is when we're starting this, this, this debate.
09:53 The team that went to Germany, of course, again for the World Cup there.
09:59 A particularly good side, good squad, full of, well, some world class players,
10:04 and the same applied to 1978 as well.
10:06 So yeah, it's fertile, fertile ground for debate, I think, Mark.
10:11 >> Well, without further ado, let's start.
10:13 I think you talked about how Pat's given us no clues.
10:16 I was trying to get a wee insight before we went on air, and I said, Pat,
10:19 what about the system?
10:20 Give me even a little hint.
10:21 >> Good question.
10:22 >> And Pat made a good point.
10:23 No, I'm going to keep you on, on, on ten hoops throughout this.
10:25 But the big question is actually, you're playing Germany.
10:29 It's a huge match.
10:31 Eyes of the continent and the world upon you.
10:35 And you're the manager, and you go, right, I need to find a way to get all these
10:38 players to perform well within a system.
10:40 So before we name the team, let's get that out of the way first.
10:44 What, how are you going to play?
10:45 >> I'm going to get at them.
10:47 >> Yep. >> I'm going to go at them.
10:48 If you go back to 1992 when I was in Euros for Scotland,
10:53 we had the Dutch with Van Basten, Hulot, Rijkaard, and all that.
10:58 We had the Germans who I think were the world champions at the time.
11:01 They'd won the World Cup before that.
11:03 It was kind of a tough group, right?
11:04 But we should maybe have gone at them more than we did.
11:08 By the second half when we did have a go at them, we gave them a bit of a doing.
11:12 We really hammered into them.
11:14 And I kind of think, nothing's expected of us, so let's have a dig.
11:20 And I don't see our current players.
11:22 I don't see anyone like McTominay, McGinn, being fearful.
11:27 See if you let them off and you go at them.
11:29 We've done Spain, and we've done good teams.
11:32 And we've suffered against other teams, but generally only in friendlies.
11:37 So I would have a go.
11:38 So with that caveat- >> Two, three, five?
11:42 >> No.
11:43 >> Yeah.
11:44 >> No, I'm going to call it a 4-4-2.
11:47 >> Okay. >> Which has been out of favour for
11:49 a long time, but this season has come right back into favour.
11:53 >> Absolutely.
11:54 >> The likes of Bayern Munich have been playing that way,
11:55 Real Madrid have been playing that way, watch Manchester City often.
11:58 The good thing about 4-4-2 is it's very easy to be a 4-2-3-1.
12:04 It's only move one centre forward back ten yards.
12:08 And that will become important as we go on here, right?
12:11 So that's what I'm going to do.
12:12 I'm going to go for a 4-2, I'm going to call it.
12:17 That means there's one guy behind it, and it's the keeper.
12:20 >> Well, let's start there.
12:22 I know you've said that you've been agonizing over your number one.
12:25 And there's been many tournaments where there has been a lot of agonizing over
12:28 Scotland number one over the years, potentially the one coming up.
12:31 But for this task, Pat, who's your goalkeeper?
12:34 >> Right, I'm going to be very, very quick and tell a couple of things.
12:37 My roommate at the time was Jim Leighton, we were in Scotland, and
12:40 we got on really well.
12:41 He was battling the team with a goalie, Andy Goro.
12:44 I worked with Andy at Motherwell and knew how brilliant he was,
12:48 because I watched him in training all the time.
12:50 And that's a really tough call.
12:54 Let's forget the fact that I once played in a game that was 6-5 between Aberdeen and
12:59 Motherwell, and 11 goals, and those two goalies were a goal.
13:03 Not a good look, it has to be said.
13:05 But between the two of them, I would go with Andy as the best.
13:11 The shot stopping was unreal.
13:13 I played with some amazing keepers through the years.
13:16 But in actual fact, Neville Souther was probably the best.
13:20 He was extraordinary, just weirdly, weirdly good.
13:24 So of them two, it's Goran.
13:27 He gets into the final now against Craig Gordon.
13:30 >> Okay.
13:31 >> Because Craig is extra special.
13:34 Now, he's taller, obviously, incredibly agile.
13:39 What he's come back from in his career, this isn't a sympathy form.
13:43 This is a man who, remember, before he came back again up to Celtic, etc.
13:48 Remember, he had an injury, he was going to finish him.
13:50 I remember doing a TV program with him.
13:53 He did a lot of punditry with me for a while.
13:55 And his phrase to me was, that's it, this is my last chance.
13:59 I'm going to the last go of this weird operation, this American surgeon.
14:03 It worked.
14:04 And he's had a huge career since then.
14:06 So I'm sitting here really struggling.
14:12 >> We've got an assistant coach at Allen, if you want to go there early.
14:14 >> [LAUGH]
14:16 >> And to be honest, I've given you three names there.
14:20 Quickly, would you say any others, or would you go for either?
14:23 >> I think just off the top of my head, in the top 50, it was David Harvey was
14:29 included, I think, 1974, Scotland goalkeeper went to Germany.
14:33 And I think, I'm right in saying, picked up goalie of the tournament.
14:36 >> He did, that's right.
14:37 >> Which was extraordinary,
14:38 considering Scotland didn't make it through the first stage.
14:42 And I think I'm right in saying,
14:44 I'd won the title that year with Leeds United as well.
14:46 So it really was a goalkeeper in his pomp.
14:49 And was an exceptional goalkeeper in the mid-70s for Scotland.
14:54 But Jim Leighton, I had in my top ten.
14:59 So I think if it came down to my choice, I'd have Jim Leighton in my team.
15:03 Just because, as Pat was talking about,
15:05 I mean, these goalkeepers really are a special breed, I think, aren't they?
15:08 In terms of just having to be a bit more, I think, mentally strong.
15:12 And Jim Leighton, I mean, how many knockbacks did he come back from?
15:16 >> Yeah.
15:17 >> I'm just thinking, obviously, being dropped for
15:20 a FA Cup final by Alex Ferguson in 1990.
15:24 And to come back from that blow again and again, he came back.
15:28 And to reclaim his place in the Scotland team, Mark,
15:30 you mentioned earlier a man of the match performance against Sweden at Ibrox.
15:35 And he, which led to him being the number one at the World Cup in 1998 in France.
15:42 And for his longevity, I think, as much as anything.
15:45 And I think I would go for Jim, but
15:49 Pat's making a very persuasive argument with Andy and Craig.
15:55 >> We're talking about three really, really top quality goalkeepers.
16:00 And it's funny, Craig Gordon did press a couple of weeks before
16:05 the tournament and you're looking at this guy, 41 year old,
16:07 who's battled back from not one but two horrific injuries.
16:12 And he looks brilliant, and he looks agile, and he's big and he's imposing.
16:15 And he's got those, you look at Craig Gordon's hands and the fingers and
16:18 you go, he can make saves that no other goalkeeper can.
16:22 And I think, while maybe the fact that we're in the era where now,
16:28 it sometimes makes it easier to pick a goalkeeper that's still playing ahead of
16:32 one that isn't, some of Craig Gordon's saves are outstanding.
16:36 And they're all different types of saves, they're long range.
16:37 There's that one for Sunderland where he turned the ball over the bar from two
16:40 yards.
16:42 So yeah, it's a difficult one between Craig and Andy,
16:43 because Andy was, as you say, the saves he made.
16:47 I know I would probably go with Craig personally, but it's a very difficult one.
16:50 >> You're right, Mark.
16:51 And also, I just think it's important for a goalkeeper, and
16:53 Craig certainly has this, to look good, to look.
16:56 And you need, obviously, you have to do it.
16:57 You have to be agile and make the great saves.
16:59 But he comes on to the park, and you just think, yeah,
17:01 we're in safe hands here.
17:03 Tall, lean, athletic looking.
17:06 And yeah, I get that sense.
17:09 And I have to say, I get that sense with Angus Gunn,
17:11 has that same bearing, I think.
17:14 Looks lean, looks commanding in his box.
17:17 And I think that feeds into a decision as well, doesn't it?
17:21 >> They all do.
17:22 Longevity is big.
17:24 Longevity at the very top is big.
17:26 And I also think the goalie, no longer with us, obviously, much missed.
17:33 Ended up with Man United as well.
17:35 You can't be called the goalie and not be a great goalkeeper.
17:39 That's how we called Andy Gorham.
17:42 But I can make this now, absolutely decided.
17:45 I have to be absolutely honest about it.
17:46 And for a hippie, it may be difficult to say, it's Craig Gordon.
17:52 And it's rightly so, because not only brilliant goalkeeper,
17:57 ultra, ultra professional, the perfect pro.
18:02 And if it would come near the end of the game, and
18:04 it was a desperate save needed to be made, you needed to have somebody on.
18:07 I would probably go for Craig.
18:10 >> Craig Gordon would have 100 caps easily by now.
18:14 >> Yeah.
18:14 >> If misfortune hadn't come in the way.
18:17 So, okay, so we have our first player.
18:19 >> We have. >> It's Craig Gordon.
18:20 And you said that was one of your harder calls.
18:22 >> It was, yes.
18:23 >> How the next one goes.
18:24 I'm going to go through the team, so from right to left.
18:27 >> Yes, go for it.
18:27 >> Let's start at right back in terms of defenders.
18:31 >> Well, quite a few.
18:31 I mean, first of all, what would jump out at yourself?
18:35 Because I was interested in that list there.
18:37 There's not a huge amount of right backs in there.
18:39 Alan Hutton's one that jumps out from that year you were talking about,
18:42 where we weren't maybe as successful.
18:45 >> Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true.
18:47 Alan Hutton was, yeah, he did come to mind.
18:50 And I thought was a superb player for Scotland down that right.
18:53 He really was one of the kind of, we talk about wing backs now quite freely.
18:58 But Alan really seemed like a modern, very modern player,
19:03 perhaps almost before his time, the way he sort of bombed down that right flank.
19:08 And really did impose himself in an attacking sense as well.
19:12 Although I don't think he did actually score a goal.
19:14 I remember being quite surprised at it in a way.
19:17 >> He's not the only one of these right backs that could play, but
19:19 couldn't he score?
19:19 >> No, no, no.
19:20 >> But that wasn't-
19:21 >> It was the engine, wasn't it, of Alan Hutton that was so impressive.
19:24 >> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
19:25 And going back a bit to full backs, it'll be Sandy Jardine and
19:28 another, well, world class, world class player.
19:33 >> So am I allowed to pick up one of these ones in front of me?
19:36 >> Of course you can, yeah.
19:37 >> Yes.
19:38 >> Yes.
19:40 >> Not even close.
19:41 >> [LAUGH]
19:42 >> Danny McGrain.
19:44 I mean, the good thing about me picking this a wee bit to some degree is,
19:48 the 50 years is perfect.
19:50 Because I was watching as a kid, Scotland and at that time Celtic,
19:56 about Hibs because they were an amazing team at the time.
19:58 Rangers, they're a great team at the time, getting in European finals.
20:01 And the Scotland team as well.
20:02 '74 was an amazing time.
20:06 Over the years, I haven't seen anything like Danny McGrain.
20:10 I mean, don't use the phrase often.
20:13 He was world class.
20:14 Absolutely world class.
20:15 Without a doubt, maybe the best in the business.
20:18 >> What made him so good, Pat?
20:19 >> Brilliant tackler.
20:21 Read the game brilliantly.
20:22 A brilliant dribbler.
20:25 An amazing dribbler.
20:26 He wouldn't have been a flying down the lane all the time kind of.
20:30 But he could take it inside and he would just walk through people.
20:33 And I mean, he couldn't score for Toffey.
20:36 And Danny told me that himself.
20:38 But he would create situations.
20:40 And the times, the amount of times that he got to the byline.
20:43 And remember, he had good players ahead of him for Scotland and for Celtic.
20:46 He was unbelievable and created goals for people and stretched defences.
20:49 But no one ever seemed to get by Danny.
20:54 But an unbelievably fair player as well.
20:56 Utterly classy.
20:58 And of all the people we'll talk about, and if you ask any Celtic fan,
21:02 they'll tell you world class.
21:03 We all get that.
21:05 And lots of Scotland fans and people will remember and will say that.
21:08 But see, when you think of some of the biggest names,
21:11 the very, very famous ones that you still see in a telly all the time,
21:15 Danny's name's not mentioned.
21:17 But it ought to be.
21:18 He was that brilliant.
21:20 Now at the time, there was players like John Brownlee,
21:22 who was a very good player as well.
21:25 You talk a bit about Sandy Jardine.
21:28 I played against Sandy very late in his career.
21:31 And he was utterly, completely, total class act as well.
21:36 But honestly, if I was looking in the world,
21:41 I'm not seeing a whole bunch of players that are better than Danny McGinn.
21:46 He was one of the greatest players we ever made in this country.
21:48 It's interesting, Pat.
21:50 I'm glad I've got him high up in my top 50, number three.
21:53 He deserves it, trust me.
21:54 He does. Yeah, absolutely deserves it.
21:56 Although you're absolutely right about perhaps not getting the acclaim now
21:59 that he deserves, purely because time moves on and people...
22:04 I mean, I saw him play with my own eyes.
22:07 He was a Celtic, fantastic player.
22:10 But Mark, you wouldn't have, for example.
22:13 So this is what we're talking about.
22:15 Our age is factored into this as well, and our years.
22:18 But I read out my top 10 players to my friend who runs a cafe
22:23 actually quite nearby here, as I was in for my morning coffee.
22:26 And I showed him my top 10.
22:27 And interestingly, this is somebody who grew up south of the border.
22:32 Of all my top 10, he'd never heard of Danny McGinn.
22:36 And is that because Danny had played all his career in Scotland?
22:40 Possibly.
22:41 I still was quite taken aback.
22:43 But you have to accept that perhaps because he's played his entire career
22:48 in Scotland that Danny McGinn's name is not more widely known.
22:54 But, yeah, certainly, as Pat said, I know that.
22:58 Feared as a fullback on the world stage for that time.
23:02 And played in a World Cup, but missed out
23:06 in '78 because of injury in '97 to '98, I think.
23:08 And you wonder what might have been.
23:10 I mean, a beautiful player.
23:12 A really beautiful player.
23:13 I mean, how often do you say that about a fullback?
23:16 Not just a really good player, a beautiful player that's classy.
23:19 And one of my favorite things about--
23:22 these days, it's, oh, a score to go, and you
23:24 point to yourself in the back, and your name, and all that stuff.
23:28 Precisely the opposite.
23:31 He's underselling himself all the time.
23:33 Funnily enough, a bit of it's not doing TV.
23:36 I'll be honest with you, or radio.
23:38 Out of sight, out of mind.
23:39 Yeah.
23:40 He didn't-- it's not that he didn't do it.
23:42 I remember once, when we were accompanying,
23:44 I got-- and we get Danny's alongside me in the studio.
23:50 I don't think he enjoyed it.
23:52 So he was not going to carry on doing that.
23:55 But honestly, I can't say enough.
23:58 And it's nothing like the way--
23:59 I mean, this is the big thing to talk about.
24:02 I don't care about who you play for in your domestic team.
24:04 Don't care.
24:05 You just have to see these players.
24:07 And I don't think many people that
24:10 live through that era, and the era since,
24:12 would argue against Danny McGree.
24:14 OK.
24:15 So we have our number two.
24:17 Let's get to the center halves.
24:18 Go right-sided center half first.
24:21 So real tough stuff.
24:23 You have your big legs.
24:24 You've got one Miller.
24:25 You've got all sorts of players that are in there.
24:30 I don't-- and this is--
24:32 a lot of people disagree.
24:33 And this is important.
24:34 I'm a bit picking the players that played best for Scotland
24:37 or are best players.
24:40 And that's a tough one.
24:42 Because if it was the players that
24:43 played best for Scotland, I'm not
24:45 sure I would pick my first pick in Alan Hansen.
24:49 But in terms of quality, you stick him in any era,
24:55 and I promise you he's playing.
24:57 Any era at all, he's there.
24:59 Number one pick, and he should be, and probably
25:02 would be a better player now in the modern era
25:05 than he was then.
25:07 You look at Van Dijk.
25:08 You look at other players that just read the game beautifully.
25:11 And the one that reminds me of--
25:13 I mean, maybe not to quite that standard, but really close--
25:17 Tiago Silva.
25:19 Never-- always reads it, and passes it out beautifully.
25:24 Comfortable on the ball all the time.
25:27 You need somebody strong beside him.
25:29 I mean, he could put an attacker on a header.
25:31 But I've played against Hansen a lot for Chelsea
25:33 against Liverpool and Everton against Liverpool.
25:37 And you're thinking, right, doesn't look that quick.
25:40 And if I can get him one on one, I can do him.
25:43 Never got him one on one.
25:44 He never allowed himself to be isolated.
25:48 That stuff.
25:49 Was that the hardest centre half to play against?
25:51 The forward.
25:51 One that maybe wasn't the most rugged or physical,
25:55 but mentally played the game--
25:56 They're the best ones.
25:58 Without a doubt.
25:59 I mean, that's why Willie Muller will say the same thing to you
26:03 and others.
26:04 And maybe it's also--
26:05 I'll be honest, it's the ones I'm impressed by.
26:07 I'm impressed by the fact that you need to be strong.
26:10 Yeah, you can make a tackle.
26:12 But see, if you don't need to make a tackle,
26:14 that's even better, because you're not
26:15 putting yourself in any danger.
26:17 And reading the play, that's the real intelligence,
26:19 the reading of play.
26:20 And you'll often find some of the very best at that
26:23 are not particularly quick.
26:25 So they need to learn that side of it.
26:27 See, the quickies, the really fast centre backs,
26:29 see when they lose their pace, bang,
26:31 they just fall off the edge of a cliff.
26:33 But people like Hanson, how long were he at the very, very top?
26:37 You know, he moved from Thistle, and he was a Liverpool legend
26:41 for a long, long time.
26:42 And it was just-- and you have to get it out there.
26:45 Scotland fans didn't always take to him.
26:47 No, of course they didn't.
26:49 So contrast, actually, interestingly,
26:50 with Danny McGray and what we talked about earlier.
26:53 You say he didn't want to become a pundit.
26:55 He didn't want to be seen on television.
26:57 Alan Hanson, perhaps for people of a certain age,
27:00 might be more associated with being a pundit than a player.
27:02 Because he became such a feature of our living rooms
27:05 as a match of the day for such a long, long period.
27:08 But as a player, Pat, you're right.
27:11 In terms of part of the holy trinity of Scottish players
27:14 at Liverpool, of course, with Graham Stunis and Kenny Dalglish
27:18 and Hanson, and I have to say that I was quite attracted
27:21 to that as I was growing up.
27:22 Very much my era.
27:23 And I would go down to Anfield on a few occasions
27:26 to watch Liverpool play.
27:27 And it was a great privilege to see Alan Hanson in the flesh.
27:30 And just stylish, wasn't he?
27:32 Such a stylish centre half.
27:35 I placed him quite far down in my top 50
27:38 just because what we were discussing there, Pat.
27:41 Perhaps Scotland fans didn't take to him quite as much
27:44 as they took to someone like Gordon McQueen or somebody who--
27:47 and Alan, injury as well, suffered because of injury.
27:50 Suffered because of just the standard of centre half
27:53 Scotland had at the time and were able to--
27:55 I mean, also, you sometimes wanted duos.
27:58 I mean, Aberdeen had Miller and MacLeish.
28:00 Yeah, exactly.
28:01 You wanted to put them in a working shot.
28:03 You got that.
28:04 But I have to go back to your initial question.
28:07 We're going to play against Germany.
28:09 What team do you want to put out?
28:11 Well, if I'm going to be playing against Germany,
28:14 I want very, very good, very good,
28:16 the best technical players.
28:19 And they don't come much better than him.
28:21 Liverpool were, for a period of time,
28:23 the best domestic club in the world.
28:25 And he was central.
28:27 OK.
28:28 Hard to argue against that.
28:29 Except at Hotsas, I never told you.
28:30 But it can't go wrong.
28:33 OK, so we've got Alan Hanson locked in.
28:35 Who's playing next?
28:36 And that's probably maybe the harder choice,
28:39 who goes next to him.
28:39 Oh my goodness.
28:41 I agonised over this.
28:43 I mean, you go back everywhere.
28:46 You know, there's so many.
28:47 I mean, go back to Billy McNeil.
28:48 You go back to all sorts of--
28:51 McLeish, you know, Miller.
28:53 You start to think about--
28:55 and there just were loads and loads and loads and loads came.
28:59 And I think, again, as I mean, you would--
29:01 what are the ones getting there that you can see--
29:04 I'm making it more recently, perhaps David Weir,
29:08 I thought was a very good player for Scotland.
29:11 Of the more recent times, David Neri,
29:14 that we've mentioned.
29:15 I mean, a wonderful, wonderful technical player, wasn't he?
29:19 We're talking about technical players.
29:20 Yeah, he was, definitely.
29:21 And obviously, scorer of one of the great goals
29:25 that we've scored with Scotland.
29:26 One of the great toe pokes, yeah.
29:27 Yeah, one of the great toe pokes.
29:28 But it's still great.
29:29 I wasn't going to go down that route, but apparently you said--
29:31 No, I'm wrong.
29:32 People never get this.
29:33 A toe poke is a good skill.
29:35 Yeah, absolutely.
29:36 And it hurts as well if you don't hit it right.
29:39 Well, the thing is, I mean, remember you used to talk
29:41 to other keepers about this.
29:42 Do you have a toe poke?
29:44 They can't read it.
29:45 They always want to read your body shape.
29:47 Toe poke, can't read it.
29:49 There's no bite left.
29:49 So, hey, never diss that goal, because it was a cracker.
29:54 Yeah, other options.
29:55 We talked about Christian Daly, again, more recently.
29:58 Colin Hendry, going back.
30:00 I mean, what a great Scotland--
30:01 And Gordon McQueen, of course.
30:02 Gordon McQueen was featured high up in our top 50, I think, Mark.
30:06 Gordon McQueen, one of the totemic centre-halves
30:09 of the last half a century, for sure.
30:12 And yeah, 30 caps, five goals, not bad for a centre-half.
30:17 Yeah, absolutely.
30:18 Does goals come into it at all?
30:20 Partially, maybe.
30:22 I don't know.
30:22 The guy I'm going to choose, I don't know how many goals he's got.
30:25 But I'm not going to pick big Gordon for this one.
30:29 Look, you're going to have to have somebody who's strong.
30:32 I want good technical ability as well.
30:34 I also want one or two players who, if I need to adapt it,
30:37 I can put them somewhere else.
30:39 So I want an all-round player who's doing a job at full-back, centre-back,
30:43 strong, leader, and seemed--
30:47 and I think was, in his time, probably a one-world-class player in his time.
30:53 Maybe there was one or two others I could argue.
30:55 But Richard Gough, at that time, the Rangers period,
31:00 down at Spurs, and Scotland.
31:03 I played with him in Scotland.
31:04 And he just thought--
31:06 I'll tell you the best thing I could say about him.
31:08 I'll give you a question.
31:09 Who do you not like playing against?
31:10 You hate playing against him.
31:12 You really hate playing against him.
31:13 Lightning quick.
31:15 Unbelievably strong.
31:18 Loved a tackle.
31:20 This is my slight embarrassment of this team.
31:23 It's really hard.
31:25 Not that many shrinking violets in it.
31:27 But you need to be, certainly, at the back.
31:29 And creativity will come later.
31:32 But Goughy, I don't know.
31:35 I never thought-- again, another player, not always ultra popular.
31:41 And I think maybe, I guess, you may have thought that, too.
31:44 Because he wasn't effusive, and he wasn't very given at the time.
31:48 But when you had him in your team, you'd much rather have him
31:52 in your team than against you.
31:54 And I suspect almost any country, had he been--
32:00 I'm sorry, born elsewhere, he was.
32:04 But any team in any country at the time,
32:07 he probably would have got in any team.
32:09 He would have been in England team.
32:10 He'd probably get in Germany and all that.
32:12 He'd have been fine.
32:13 You mentioned goals.
32:15 Six goals.
32:16 Richard Gough, not bad.
32:17 Some good headers.
32:18 Six goals.
32:19 A goal against England, I think we'll remember.
32:22 And one v Cyprus that was so late, it was almost the next game.
32:26 It was eight minutes into injury time, back in the days when you very rarely
32:29 had more than a minute or two minutes of injury time.
32:33 But yeah, I think you've won back favor with Evertonians as well, possibly.
32:37 Yes.
32:39 I'm not trying to favor anyone, because you'll never make mates doing this sort of thing.
32:43 But I've got certain memories, and everyone will have memories of certain players
32:47 that stick out.
32:48 And that German game I mentioned, where we played in Euros, the second half.
32:52 You could see the German defenders going, what is he doing to us?
32:58 He was getting in everything.
33:00 We remember Big Gordon, McQueen scoring at Wembley, and all that sort of stuff.
33:03 He was terrorizing them, coming up from every corner.
33:06 And you could see his passion to win in games was extraordinary.
33:11 That game, looking back on it, you think, people had to get out of his way.
33:16 I think there was at least one, and maybe two players that were carried off
33:19 to get tackles with him.
33:21 So certainly, Goughy was a very, very talented and very special player.
33:27 Was he a leader as well?
33:28 Yes.
33:29 Yeah.
33:29 Funnily enough, we had a couple around him.
33:31 Gary Mack was in the cast, he was the leader.
33:34 What people misunderstand about national teams, right?
33:37 So you get a national team, you probably name a captain.
33:42 It's so unimportant in the national team.
33:45 They make a big deal out of it.
33:47 Particularly in England, they make a big deal out of it.
33:49 You're saying, there's probably six captains in that team.
33:52 A lot of the players will have been captains in their team.
33:56 I remember playing, after striking, who'd have been captain in his team?
33:59 Sometimes McAllister would have been captain in his team.
34:01 McStay would have been captain in his team.
34:03 Goughy, you just go through them, they're all captains.
34:06 A lot of them are captains.
34:08 The centre-back's everywhere.
34:09 So, it's a leader, but you need a bunch of leaders.
34:14 And certainly, Goughy, as much by example as anything.
34:19 The battle we needed.
34:21 The Tartan Army demand, you absolutely give everything.
34:26 And that's why, when we ever have success, we've got good players,
34:29 but we need that too.
34:32 Speaking of captains though, we're on to the position where,
34:35 currently, the Scotland captain is at left-back.
34:37 I wonder if he's going to feature in your team here.
34:41 Let's complete the defence, Pat.
34:43 Who is your left-back in this match?
34:45 Really tough one.
34:46 Remember, I played against left-backs.
34:47 For the last part of my career.
34:49 To have a very specific view of them.
34:53 There was a period there with Tien, it was unbelievable.
34:56 Injuries and various things have had an effect,
34:58 but he was a fabulous, fabulous player.
35:00 Robbo, same.
35:03 Maybe not as good a defender as he is.
35:05 An attacking wing-back, he's out.
35:07 But he has to be considered.
35:09 I'll admit up here, right here in the...
35:12 I'm a wee bit unfair in the current players.
35:15 And when I'm picking this team.
35:16 The reason being, the careers are not finished.
35:20 There's not enough to say, "Right, okay, you are that fantastic
35:24 over a whole body of work."
35:26 A year or two's time, one or two of the current lads
35:30 will be more in your mind.
35:32 And five years down the line, they may be getting in.
35:36 But at the moment, Robbo is not getting there.
35:40 Again, I'll pass it on to you, T.
35:43 What are you thinking?
35:44 I'm actually quite surprised that you've ruled Robbo out this early.
35:47 Because he's been part of a Liverpool team that has won
35:52 almost every trophy it can.
35:55 His career trajectory has been outstanding.
35:58 From the very bottom to the very top.
36:00 We all know his story, we don't need to put it on camera.
36:03 And also, he's now at the peak of his career.
36:07 He was linked with Bayern Munich recently.
36:09 He's a player that I think almost every club in the world would want right now.
36:13 And he's now part of the Liverpool leadership group.
36:16 And I have to say personally, I struggle to look past him.
36:20 But again, is that potentially bias coming in?
36:24 I mean, Alan, you've seen more left-backs than I have.
36:28 Even some would say Kieran Tierney is a better left-back than Andy Robertson.
36:31 There is that argument out there.
36:32 And I think it's a fair argument at times too.
36:34 Yeah, yeah.
36:35 I mean, I suffer from what Pat's likely got.
36:37 Sort of an anti-recency almost.
36:40 You know, the players that I'm currently watching,
36:42 I reflect back to the 80s and 90s.
36:45 And I think there were probably better players back then.
36:47 But in this case, in the left-back case,
36:51 I think I proved that by putting Andy Robertson so high up in my top 50.
36:56 I think I've got him as four.
36:57 I mean, I have to go with Andy Robertson.
36:59 I think he's been superb.
37:00 And not just for his country, but for his club as well.
37:04 I mean, you watch Liverpool playing, you watch Andy Robertson,
37:07 you think, yeah, that's one of the best players in the world playing just now.
37:10 So I would put Andy Robertson in my team.
37:14 Other full-backs that we, I think, mentioned earlier was Maurice Malpass.
37:19 Yeah, played with Maurice, and another roommate of mine who was...
37:22 Yeah, absolutely.
37:22 He couldn't stand being my roommate.
37:24 I was always telling him jokes.
37:26 But he was a really, really ultra-dependable Scottish player.
37:29 Ultra-dependable.
37:32 It's not to diss any of these players.
37:34 There's no disservice to them.
37:36 You're not saying you're not a good player.
37:38 You're saying the standard to get into this team is extraordinary.
37:42 So if I'm saying already, Robbo's...
37:45 And Robbo and Tierney are just not making it.
37:48 They're there, but they're tiny.
37:51 They're just there.
37:52 Yeah, yeah.
37:52 I'm fascinated to see who you put ahead of them.
37:54 Tom Boyd and another...
37:55 Well...
37:55 We can mention that.
37:57 Not dissimilar to Robbo.
37:58 Yeah, yeah.
37:59 Not dissimilar to Robbo in his time.
38:00 Yeah, yeah, really.
38:01 I mean, really, really was, again, very dependable full-back for Scotland.
38:05 And also hammered up that line.
38:07 Wade Hutton did on one side, in his era.
38:10 Tom Boyd was exactly the same.
38:11 And left-wing back or left full-back, didn't matter.
38:14 Understanding Wade Jacy, John Collins was extraordinary.
38:17 And I played with him a couple of times in Scotland.
38:19 And that was probably my favourite two players to play with.
38:23 Right, right, right.
38:24 Because Jacy got it, really.
38:28 But you're not getting that, you're not seeing him go for it, are you?
38:31 No, I'm put aside by my injury, Pat.
38:33 Who is it?
38:34 Sandy Jarvin.
38:35 OK.
38:35 So Sandy Jarvin, I played against him very, very early in my career.
38:41 I was 17.
38:41 Rupert Clyde, he was at Jambos at the time.
38:45 He'd had a career with Rangers.
38:46 I'd watched him at Rangers.
38:48 And to actually not pick him at right back, with Danny McGrain.
38:54 Now Danny and Jarvin could both do that.
38:58 It's good to ask you.
38:59 Yeah, both could do that.
39:00 Both could play right and both could play left.
39:04 And I know certain left-backs, like Kieran, he's gone right back.
39:10 But it didn't work quite as well.
39:12 It wasn't bad, but it didn't work.
39:14 Robbo, you wouldn't even think of putting him on the right.
39:16 You wouldn't even consider it.
39:17 Right.
39:18 Them two?
39:19 Not a problem.
39:20 Absolutely not a problem.
39:21 It's the width of the game, the knowledge of the game.
39:25 It was a tough one, I have to say, between the two modern players.
39:29 I think once those two come back to when their careers are finished,
39:35 then you re-look the whole career and the whole thing.
39:38 But Sandy Jarvin was, again, I think he was up there
39:42 with a beautiful player, very creative at the back as well,
39:47 gorgeous on the ball.
39:48 And as I fell into my course, even as a young whippersnapper,
39:52 hell of a hard to get by.
39:54 Tell you one story about him.
39:56 Played at the end of his career and I played against him.
39:59 And at the end of the game, I said, "How do I get by him?"
40:01 I said, "How can I get by this old man?"
40:05 And he walked off the pitch telling me what technically I'd done wrong against him.
40:10 When does an opponent do that to you?
40:12 And what he said to me is, "Look, you're not going to be here long.
40:15 You're going to do okay.
40:17 Pass on stuff to all the other Scottish people you know.
40:21 We need to make our country better."
40:24 Who thinks that in a game played against hearts?
40:27 It's a sign of class, isn't it?
40:29 Class is the word.
40:31 So, Sandy Jarvin, again, great master of Scottish football
40:35 and Scottish life. I thought he was a fabulous player.
40:38 It's a tight one. I'll grant you that.
40:40 But Sandy's getting back on.
40:42 Okay. Okay. Well.
40:44 That's a back four. Not a bad back four.
40:46 Oh, look, I mean, it's still a fantastic defence.
40:51 You look at it and go, "Right, brilliant. That's the bedrock to move on."
40:55 And what I like about that back four as well is it feels dependable.
41:00 You go into a game of such magnitude, you look around you and go,
41:04 "Right, I'm pretty confident that all five of those players
41:07 can bring their A game at the biggest stage."
41:10 So there you have it.
41:11 The first set of players picked by Pat Nevin for his Scotland team
41:16 from the 50 best players in the last 50 years.
41:19 Join us for part two where Pat will go through his midfielders
41:23 and strikers, the men that will get the goals in that game against Germany.
41:27 Until then, bye for now.
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