"War crimes in response to war crimes are unacceptable to the international community", analyst says after ICC announcement
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00:00 live with the analysis Yossi Mecklenburg, Associate Fellow for the Middle East North
00:03 Africa Program at Chatham House. Yossi, thank you for being with us here on France 24. Arrest
00:08 warrants then. What's your take on this development in the story?
00:11 Good evening, thank you for having me. I think it's serious. This court case will never take
00:20 place because Israel is not a signatory to the home state. It's obviously not Hamas.
00:28 And as long as Netanyahu and Gallant are not traveling to any of the countries that are
00:33 signatory, they won't be arrested. But I think it sends a very clear message that while even if a
00:42 country has the right, there is a cause of bail and has the right to defend itself and go to war,
00:47 as was the case on 7th of October after the atrocity of Hamas, it doesn't mean that it can
00:55 use any means in its arsenal, in its possession. And committing war crimes in response to war
01:04 crimes is unaccepted by the international community. So starvation and other means won't
01:10 be accepted. So I think the message in Israel, you know, one understands that there are outrages,
01:16 and you more than understand even expect it. But at the same time, it's also a moment that should be
01:24 some sausage within Israel. There should be some kind of reflection. Is that what you're saying?
01:29 You think this should make Israel actually reflect on what is happening, what they continue to do?
01:32 Completely. And go back to when even President Biden warned Israel on the second or third day
01:39 of the war, look, what happened to you was terrible and it was horrific. And that's also why
01:46 the general prosecutor also called for arrest and arrest warrants for the leaders of Hamas. There
01:54 is no doubt about it. But at the same time, as President Biden said, learn from our mistake in
02:00 9/11, not go to revenge and the other thing, a liberal democracy can't fight, can't go to war
02:08 the way that the terrorist group is going. And Israel didn't listen to that. And A, it doesn't
02:15 achieve its objective militarily, not politically. And worse than that, it faces itself on one hand
02:22 in front of the ICJ with accusation of genocide and here for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
02:30 That's what the Netanyahu government led Israel to. And one of the reasons for this,
02:36 because you went into government with a far-right government. And by every time that they
02:44 comment about the war, they exactly justify this kind of accusation because they express the
02:52 intention of committing these kinds of crimes. And this is the problem, the crux of the matter
02:57 is that this coalition that Netanyahu is leading, the thirst from him to get back into power after
03:03 any number of kind of failed elections in Israel, finally hatches a coalition which is the most
03:09 far-right that Israel has ever seen. And here we have a situation where it is backing the continuation
03:14 of this, it's more or less a one-way bombardment of the Gaza Strip. 1,200 Israelis were killed by
03:21 Hamas on October the 7th at least, and that was an atrocity completely. 35,000 plus Palestinians
03:27 have been killed in the wake of all that. Israel, in the process of all of this Yossi, has really
03:32 given up the high ground, hasn't it? Because there's no way you can have the moral high ground
03:36 with that kind of equation. Yeah, it had the moral high ground at the beginning of the war,
03:43 and on October 7th there is no doubt about it. The atrocity of the Hamas was horrific,
03:49 and actually the way that they treat the hostages and cynically using the hostages
03:54 deserves any condemnation. And hence again they face arrest warrants as well. But at the same time
04:04 it should not have led Israel to conduct the war the way it conducted, which you have tens of
04:11 thousands, many of them are innocent people, children and women and elderly, paying the price
04:16 for this war. The idea of starvation, you know, that Gaza is devastated and by some accounts it
04:25 will take 20 or 30 years to rebuild it, let alone it radicalize the population of Gaza and way beyond.
04:34 And that's the difference. And Israel could have taken a completely different approach from day one.
04:39 War against Hamas, yes, looking for its leaders that were the perpetrators of the atrocity of
04:47 October 7th, I think the world was behind Israel, but not the way that it went with full force
04:55 and basically treating the entire Gaza Strip as collateral damage. Hamas of course has nothing
05:02 to do with the ICC. Israel is not a secretary, neither is the United States. Joe Biden has spoken
05:07 out to express his outrage that Netanyahu has been named as a possible subject of the arrest warrant.
05:15 Is the ICC also sending a message to the United States here that it really needs to up its game
05:20 and how it deals with Israel? I think the most important thing is to send a message that war
05:27 crimes wherever they are won't be tolerated. And I think they changed the international discourse.
05:33 You know, Israel is not the only one there, and not Hamas. There are war crimes taking place in
05:38 so many different places. And I think it is in a way within this terrible situation opportunity
05:44 to send a very clear message that there will be a universal approach to war crimes that won't be
05:50 tolerated. And whoever is committing war crimes or crimes against humanity, they will be eventually
05:59 prosecuted by the ICC. Again, in certain cases, because of the weakness of the international
06:06 community, if you're not a signatory, it's impossible, but at least it sends a message.
06:11 And it's also sent a message they won't be able to travel certain places and also be ostracized
06:16 in the international community if they won't adhere to certain standards of behaviour,
06:21 including at times of war. Yossi, thank you so much for joining us. Yossi Muckleburg,
06:25 Associate Fellow in the Middle East and North Africa Program at Chatham House. Thank you,
06:28 sir. As always, Yossi Muckleburg, our guest there. So, Netanyahu and Yossi.