In this edition, we look at what lawmakers' extracurricular activities mean for their core role.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly talk show about the news
00:17right here in Brussels and beyond. I'm Maeve McMahon, thank you for tuning in. Coming up
00:23this week, just weeks ahead of European Parliament elections, some startling revelations about
00:29what elected officials get up to in their spare time. According to Transparency International,
00:357 in 10 MEPs earn extra money on the side and, they say, many raise eyebrows for ethical
00:42reasons. We hear what impact that might have on their role as lawmakers and ponder why
00:47trust is so low between people and politicians. And happy Pride Week. It's that time of the
00:55year again, when Brussels is bedecked with rainbow flags to honour the LGBTQ community.
01:01Even the EU foreign affairs headquarters had embraced the mantra of safe every day, safe
01:06everywhere. But, with a new report showing that the queer community is experiencing more
01:11bullying and violence than ever, we're asking if there really is anything to celebrate.
01:16A warm welcome to our guests this weekend. Sofia Ruzak, senior researcher from CEPS.
01:22Petrus Vassilis, secretary-general of the European Movement International. And Anna
01:27Nalivajko, senior project officer from the Wilfrid Martin Centre. Thank you so much for
01:32joining us. But, as always, before we bring in your views, we just want to hear more about
01:37this new dirt NGOs have dug up about our members of the European Parliament.
01:42Seven in ten MEPs have worked outside this chamber. And a handful are earning big bucks
01:53for them. So says recent data from the campaign group Transparency International. And MEPs
02:01sitting on the right and centre tend to reap handsome financial benefits, compared to those
02:06on the left. And the news turns heads, but it's not illegal. MEPs can have as many jobs
02:14as they want and earn as much as they want, as long as they declare their income and they
02:19don't carry out lobbying work. With elections around the corner, we ask if this revelation
02:27will taint the image of Brussels and Strasbourg, or if more needs to be done to protect MEPs'
02:32reputations. So, Sofia, how big a deal is this, do you think? How come it's legal for MEPs to have a
02:41second job? Should they not park them so that they can focus then 100% on giving attention to their
02:45jobs as MEPs? Yeah, but I mean, it's not so unusual, right? We see this with parliamentarians
02:50all over the globe, I would say that they have side jobs. So I don't think that this is something
02:55specifically specific about the European Parliament. But of course, we can discuss whether that's a
02:59good thing. I mean, one element here is, of course, time, if you take your parliamentary duty very
03:05serious, then this is taking up actually all your time. And if you then have a side job, right,
03:09that's carving out time from your parliamentary work. Well, indeed, it's worth pointing out that
03:14many MEPs would have currently worked as lawyers, doctors, farmers, actors, TV presenters. And
03:20indeed, as you say, it's not just in the parliament. I mean, if you look at the UK, there's been a
03:24massive controversy over the last couple of years, and the government has promised to crack down on
03:28But Petros, are you not making fun of the whole idea of an MEP? So how will the public take these
03:34institutions seriously, if they're not taking their job seriously?
03:38It's important for them to have the opportunity to bring expertise from outside and engage also with
03:42the world outside of the chamber. An MEP or any parliamentarian should be in contact with the
03:48people that regulate the businesses that they have an impact on. So I think it is okay for MEPs to
03:54have side activities, as long as as your report mentioned, is transparent, declared, and above all,
04:01above board.
04:03These are big books, Ana, that some of them have been have been have been reaping for these side
04:07jobs. Some of them raise eyebrows, as I said, because they're linked to corporations or private
04:11businesses that therefore could be influencing their policies.
04:15Absolutely. But I do very much agree with what Petros said. I think that it's important to also
04:19understand that the larger scope of the work in the parliament, and that is the outreach of being in
04:24contact with industries, with business, with civil society, NGOs, etc.
04:27And I think it's important also to state that according to current rules, having a side activity or a side
04:32earning is legal, as long as it's declared, it's transparent, and it is in line with the code of
04:37conduct. And I think it's also important to separate that from corruption, because I think the risk here is
04:42to sort of allege that all MEPs who have a side activity are automatically corrupt. And that is
04:49absolutely not the case.
04:50Well, we of course have a transparency register. Does it work though?
04:54It's not always as robust as we would like it to be. And there have been efforts to strengthen it, in
04:59fact, and unfortunately, they were watered down. And this is where our attention should be. How do we
05:04make sure that the necessary watchdogs have the appropriate amount of power to step in if an MEP or
05:11any other civil servant crosses the line and does something that is not according to our values?
05:18Because you mentioned trust. We are indebted to trust and we need to maintain it.
05:23There are loopholes. I mean, there are MEPs that are lawyers. And of course, they have to be
05:29transparent who they meet as lobbyists in their function as MEPs. But they don't have to do the
05:33same when they do this in their function as a lawyer, right?
05:37Indeed. And it's just worth pointing out that in that study by Transparency International, six
05:42lawmakers we understand were earning more than 120,000 per year. That's even more as their salary
05:47as MEPs. But to get a little bit more insight into that study, we also wanted to catch up with
05:52Transparency International and to some of the people that were working on that research. So we
05:56had a chat with Rafael Cargeno.
05:59We've been doing this kind of research in MEP side jobs for around 10 years now. And every year we
06:04find high income activities, we find activities that are problematic. And one of the key problems
06:09and sort of where it's really disappointing is that there was an opportunity for proper reform
06:13inside the European Parliament. This happened after the Qatarigate scandal where MEPs worked for
06:17practically a full year to reform the internal rules. And what we see at the end is a reform that
06:22is more cosmetic where there's some small changes. But overall, on these side activities, the system
06:28remains the same. When we look at these side activities, one key demand for MEPs is to really
06:32adopt a culture of integrity. And that means that we're calling on all candidates to adopt some of
06:38our recommendations and to push in the next parliament to make sure we don't have scandals
06:42because as a reminder, every scandal damages trust, and that we then see the results of the elections.
06:48Rafael Cargeno there making the point that of course, scandals damage trust. And of course,
06:52scandals always make the headlines. And according to Follow the Money, the organisation and a couple
06:57of investigative newspapers, seemingly 163 MEPs out of the current 704 have been implicated in some
07:04kind of scandal this term, whether that be harassment, fraud, and nepotism. How do you root out
07:09those bad eggs, Sofia?
07:10I think the culture so far is more a culture of impunity. That is a problem, right? I mean, we have
07:15we have rules in place, but they were not strict enough in the past. They are stricter now as a
07:19consequence of Cathargate, but could certainly be stricter. But also, they're not enforced properly.
07:25And I think that is the problem.
07:26That's the thing. You say they're stricter, but are they? I ask myself this question all the time.
07:31Has the parliament, Anna, really changed since that huge corruption scandal last December?
07:35I think that Cathargate was this watershed moment in the parliament, you know, and it shook really
07:39the parliament and sort of what was happening resurfaced. And I think that steps were taken in the
07:45direction we I mean, here, I mentioned the 14 point reform plan put forward by Roberta Metzola.
07:51Therefore, the parliament has taken forward steps to sort of tighten the rules and to limit
07:56corruption and boost transparency as well as the adoption of a stricter code of conduct. But I
08:01think what is important here also to say that at the end of the day, the parliament is not an
08:05investigative body and personal responsibility of MEPs is very important.
08:09Indeed, at the end of the day, it will be all about self-regulation, Petrus. Will that work? I mean,
08:13we have to go to the source. How do we select our candidates? Who are the people that we put forward?
08:19Because the parliament, any institution can go only this far. It is down to political parties and the way
08:25they vet their candidates, the way they select the people they will put forward. So to make sure they're
08:31more representative and above all, more transparent. We need to have more young people, more women,
08:36people from all backgrounds, a diverse parliament, not just the few that are there, perhaps to enrich
08:42themselves or to influence power.
08:44Petrus there calling on our viewers there to vote very wisely in these elections coming up on the
08:486th to the 9th of June. But Sofia, I know you studied this very carefully, the reaction of the
08:54parliament to this corruption scandal last year, Roberta Metzola, the president was a bit late,
08:59perhaps coming, many would argue with her reaction. She also blamed external factors, as opposed to
09:05looking inside the European Parliament to see where the problems were. Was that the right way to go?
09:09Well, we see that she I mean, they have improved rules, indeed, when it comes to reporting
09:14requirements, when it comes to financial, laying open your financial situations before and after the
09:18office and so on. But to be honest, none of these things will help will prevent another cut target
09:23because and here we have, I think, to distinguish between the classical lobbyism, right, this is
09:28private interest trying to influence your law, and for interference, right, which is states trying to
09:34interfere. So and the second, so the cut target and all the espionage cases that we have seen popping up
09:42in the last weeks and months, I don't think anything that the parliament has done is preventing future
09:48scandals of such sort.
09:50And you both meet MEPs on a regular basis in your job, do you get the feeling they're representing you and
09:55the public good, or they're representing corporate interests?
09:58Well, I mean, I think you can have both. But I think that luckily, we live in a democracy, there is an
10:02election approach. And so we have a great tool to vote down those who we feel failed our, our trust and
10:09their responsibilities and to put in place people who we think will represent us best. So I think voting
10:15actually, that is coming up in June is a great way to to speak against those who we think failed their
10:21responsibilities.
10:22And it is also the role of all of us citizens, but also civil society to really scrutinize those that are
10:28elected and ensure that they do represent the citizens that put them there, rather than interests that
10:33might be not so benevolent.
10:36Well, as it is just a few weeks to those European Parliament elections, we took to the streets of
10:42downtown Brussels to ask locals if they trusted politicians take a listen out to their answers.
10:50Absolutely not.
10:51In a way, how you say, I think they can do better with transparency.
10:56I think I trust them. But I don't know everything about what they do behind the scenes. So it's like in
11:02between.
11:03I do but not all of them. I'm not really a big fan of like the extremists or parties.
11:10I don't believe that they actually are there for the people. I don't trust the state.
11:14I start to trust anything. I don't trust anything.
11:19So there you go. That is the reality. If you go outside any of the political bubbles of any of the
11:24European capitals, they're the kind of responses you'd be hearing.
11:27Yes, but then again, if you look at Eurobarometer data, interestingly enough, after Katarga, there was a bit of a
11:32dip in trust in the EU institutions, but it has then recovered again and remained stable since then.
11:38And I don't think that it's because people don't think this was a bad thing. But I think there's too little
11:41interest and too little scrutiny, which is a bigger problem of the European Parliament.
11:45That the scandals they leave people's mind quickly because they don't care so much.
11:50If you dig a little bit deeper, you see that the trust actually in EU institutions is higher than in national
11:55institutions. And of course, there is not a competition, you know, we need to have trust in politics across the
11:59board at every level. But again, as Sofia mentioned, I think the EU is still seeing as a bastion of transparency
12:06and values.
12:07There's not a competition, but sometimes there feels like there is a competition, no, between national
12:11governments and the EU institutions.
12:13Well, for sure. But I think that indeed, trust in EU institutions is higher than that in national
12:20parliaments or national governments. But also to what extent what we heard is influenced by
12:25disinformation, because we know that a lot of there are a lot of disinformation and misinformation
12:28campaigns out there against the EU are trying to damage the EU's image. So I think that we also have to look
12:34at that aspect, to what extent disinformation influences the trust of citizens towards the
12:40representatives in the EU.
12:41And the situation, of course, different across Europe, we were taking a look at studies in Norway,
12:46Iceland, Sweden, trust is very high in politicians. And whereas in countries like Slovakia, it's still
12:52very low. So there's still a lot that needs to be done, perhaps culturally, in many countries, Sofia as
12:56well.
12:57Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's there's great differences among the EU countries, and especially in
13:01those countries, in which, you know, the democratic culture is still has to be, you know, manifested and
13:07strengthened. Of course, those trusted processes often less and also the elections and the electoral
13:12process, right, we also see this in turnout, right, which is in some countries, I think in Slovenia, the
13:19election turnout was 16%, for the last EP elections, if I'm not mistaken, but very, very low in any case.
13:25But Petra, what would you say to people who feel disappointed, and we get a lot of viewers writing to
13:30us here at Euronews saying they're genuinely disappointed, they really don't feel and reap the
13:34benefits, even though I know you're talking about the Eurobarometer, trust has gone up, etc, etc. But
13:39this is the reality what people really are feeling.
13:41And we have seen this in our polling, people feel disempowered, they think that their voice doesn't
13:45matter. And I think it's important to support a little bit participatory representative democracy and
13:51add the participatory element to it to give citizens the opportunity to be part of the democratic
13:56process, not just once every five year by casting the ballot, but every day, every month of the year to
14:01make sure that their voice at the local, at the regional, the national, the European level is echoed, not
14:07just once every five years, but regularly.
14:09Indeed, because now when people see politicians, they're mostly being chaperoned around cities, in
14:14motorcades, they have, it looks like they have a great life and access to everything, lots of
14:19privileges, and lots of services at their at their toenails. And of course, very little access to real
14:25people. That's the problem. They feel very far away.
14:27Absolutely. Sometimes politicians are detached from reality. And you know, we are sitting here in Brussels, and we
14:34are part of the Brussels bubble, and sometimes that feels detached from reality. So I think, indeed, bringing
14:38citizens closer and making them part of democracy is very important, as well as just for politicians to
14:45embrace sort of society and embrace citizens and be very forward and transparent in what they
14:51represent and what is happening. So I think also communicating better what is happening in Brussels,
14:55what is happening in politics is very important as well.
14:58Very important. And did you all follow the so called Russiagate scandal earlier this year, which alleged
15:02that certain MEPs were under the influence of sources close to the Kremlin, allegedly receiving money
15:07according to the Belgian Prime Minister here, Alexander de Kroot. Spies proved that there was actually
15:13transfers made. And this is also very problematic, Sofia.
15:17Yeah, absolutely. And we see this across all parties. And we see this in the EU level, and we see this on
15:21the national level. And again, the problem is that, well, you basically would need a European Intelligence
15:26Service on the EU level to prevent these things. So the national level, they have their intelligence services
15:32to deal with these things. But the EU, we are dependent on the on the Belgian authorities, right? So I think
15:37there's, there's more than new transparency rule inside the parliament to prevent future corruption
15:43scandals of such scale.
15:46Indeed, very, very challenging times. And also Petros, you've been in Brussels for a long time. There's also the
15:51problem of revolving doors. We have a major issue as well with that people who leave politics and within a week
15:57they could be sitting on a board of a corporation or I remember Nelly Cruz a couple of years ago, the former
16:03commissioner in charge of digital.
16:05Yeah, it's very important. Again, we must not forget that there are relationships, of course, that develop and
16:10people have a career beyond politics. And they should have a career beyond politics. They shouldn't stay in
16:13politics for all their lives. But yes, rules are very important. Distance needs to be created. And above all, you
16:19know, we always go back to this, the silver bullet is having a structure and a method to select the people that
16:25actually represent us to ensure that the right individuals, whether they are from whichever party, are there to
16:31serve the citizens that elect them rather than anybody else. So we need a robust system that starts from the
16:36root. How do we select candidates? And how do we help them get into positions of power, diverse, multiple sources
16:43and above all, transparent?
16:44So you're talking about political will, we need political will, you need to see real, proper political muscle in that
16:51incoming set of MEPs coming in this, this term, do you think that could be possible? What kind of new European
16:58Parliament do you foresee?
17:00Well, there's hope that it's going to be possible. And I think that the question of personal responsibility, once
17:06again, is very important, because MEPs have to act ethical, of course, there is a bit of a fear of the parliament
17:12shifting to the right. And once again, you mentioned Russia, Russia's outreach is very big. And it looks like those
17:19on the extreme right are more likely to have links to Russia. So I think we have to be very careful about the
17:25influence that these MEPs could potentially have from foreign agents that are trying to, to undermine the EU from
17:31within.
17:32What's your take on that? Do you think that the parliament will be able with this?
17:37Well, we will see again, a high turnover of MEPs, we will again, probably see 60% new MEPs. And, but what you know, and I
17:46think we do see a chance here to maybe take those fresh transparency rules, which are only in place, some of them, by the way,
17:54can only be really in effect with with a new next parliament. And maybe that is a chance for transparency, then that to have
18:0060% of fresh
18:02and where those rules really have teeth, talk us through those rules.
18:05Well, and so for instance, when it comes to meetings with lobbyists, I think this is a big point, right, that MEPs now have
18:13to always declare when they meet with lobbyists, even if those do not regard the reports that they are working on in that
18:21very moment, as it was before. Also, for instance, their assistants, they also have to if they meet lobbyists, they have to
18:27declare and make transparency meetings. And we know how important these assistants are for their work. And again, as I said,
18:34they also have to declare how much money they have in the beginning in the in the end of the mandate, although not in between. So
18:41I mean, yeah, I mean, many of these rules could have had much more teeth, to be honest, if there was not so much resistance from
18:47the centre right and the right spectrum of the European Parliament. If you look at the left, the Greens and the left, I mean, they
18:53asked for much stricter rules. They, for instance, also want to abolish the opportunity of having side jobs altogether. But there
19:00is a very strong conservative majority still of different kinds of parties that are intertwined too heavily with with the lobby. And so
19:10they prevent deeper change from happening.
19:13And that's a major concern as well of Emily O'Reilly. She is the EU ombudsman. And she's worried that in the future, we're going to see a
19:21lot of EU climate laws delayed or diluted even because of many MEPs being linked to lobbyists. But with that conclusion, we can
19:28conclude that conversation. Thank you so much to our panel. And you stay with us because after the break, we'll be hearing how more and
19:35more people here in Europe are coming out but how also attacks and hate against this community are spiking. See you soon.
19:42Welcome back to Brussels, my love with me Maeve McMahon. Now this week, Brussels celebrated annual Pride Week, the display of colour and
19:59diversity aspires to raise awareness about the challenges for the LGTBIQ plus community. According to extensive new research from the
20:07Fundamental Rights Agency in Vienna, the good news is more people are coming out of the closet in Europe. But the bad news is violent attacks
20:15are going up over one in two are open about who they are. But one in three face discrimination every day. And half of young LGBTIQ have suicidal
20:26thoughts. And most were also bullied in school. So this is quite worrying data because this is a very extensive report, as I said, that was
20:34carried out by the Fundamental Rights Agency. Is Europe getting more homophobic? Sophia?
20:40Well, it is alarming, right? And I think while there is this, there is still this East and West divide, right? I mean, the situation in Eastern
20:47European countries such as Hungary and Poland, but also Bulgaria, as this has also shown, is with the worst across the EU. But you know, also in
20:56Western European countries, this kind of violence is increasing. And I think what is interesting in this study is and equally alarming is this
21:03differentiation between gays and lesbians on one side, which seems to be increasingly seem to be increasingly accepted. But then when it comes
21:10to trans, intersexual people, and you know, more widely speaking people, you know, gender, less gender, or non gender conformative, they are
21:22facing great aggression across the European Union.
21:27And a lot of hate, a lot of hate online as well. And off Petrus, what more could the EU and of course, EU governments be doing here?
21:33Yeah, there are two elements. Of course, legislation can go only this far. Education is very important. The way the cultural change that we need to
21:41implement in across the European Union is what will make the difference, how we bring up our children, the kind of values we teach them, the tolerance,
21:48acceptance, openness, because the more diverse society is, the richer it is. And it is very encouraging that we have seen people coming out and really
21:58being proud of who they are. But this is also why elections are very important. You know, we want all communities, minorities, especially to come forward,
22:07stand for office, so they can make our politics more diverse too. But the far right, the extremes are attacking them online and in person exactly because they
22:16want to keep them away. They want to minimize their voice and their role in society. And that's where we have to come up with legislation to protect them, enable
22:26them to take office, shape their society and our politics, but also stand by them as individuals and tell them that we are with you. You know, your voice
22:34matters. Your difference is a strength. We will support you.
22:38Well, we want to hear as well from ILGA Europe. They're of course, the voice of the community here in Brussels and hear more really on the realities that
22:46they're facing in 2024. So we caught up with their director, Shaber. Take a listen.
22:52The situation for LGBTI people in Europe is a very mixed bag. Too few countries protect against hate crimes and hate speech. Too few recognize rainbow
23:01families. Barely any countries have any protections for intersex people or asylum seekers. And many of those are within the competence of the EU. So within
23:12this coming election, we really need candidates to step up to the challenge and to commit freedom of movement, which is at the core of EU values, is not
23:20secured for trans people, for intersex people, for non-binary people, for rainbow families. So the new commission and the new parliament really needs to
23:29prioritize filling those legislative gaps. And that really needs to happen soon.
23:35So the director of ILGA, Shaber, speaking to us on a reaction to what you heard there, pretty troubling.
23:40Absolutely. I mean, I think that looking at the EU as a whole, it's a place where there has been the biggest leap in legislative and societal changes when
23:49it comes to LGBTQI rights. But is it uniform across the EU? No, absolutely it's not. It varies very much from member states. I think what is
24:00important is that both the European Parliament and the Commission stand behind LGBTQI communities. And here I'm referring to the fact that when Hungary
24:10and Poland put forward the quote unquote LGBTQI ideology free zones, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen spoke very harshly against that and an
24:19infringement process was started against these countries.
24:23We have seen the Foreign Affairs Department, the EEAS here in the EU quarter, they have put the rainbow poster up this week. So they're taking a stance. But what
24:30they really need to do as well is use the leverage that they have when they're negotiating, especially with aspiring EU countries, Petros, many of those
24:38countries, really not fulfilling their commitments and stalling back in the introduction of legislation in this field, according to that ILGA report.
24:46Indeed, the EU is a bastion of fundamental values, and we need to project them both inside but outside. But if I may, I'll take a step back and still focus what's
24:56going on in the EU. You know, we've seen in Italy, for example, where far right political party has taken power, might be playing ball in Brussels, engaging in
25:06constructive politics, as we understand it in the EU bubble. But at the national level, they're undermining fundamental rights of minorities, including those
25:15rainbow families who are seeing the rights being taken away. So it is very important to be able to put pressure on national governments, the EU must have the
25:25instrument to put pressure to ensure that they don't violate their values.
25:28But no one's speaking up to them about that. You can be sure that Ursula von der Leyen, the Commission President when she meets Giorgio Maloney, that is not a topic
25:35on the table, Sofia.
25:37No, indeed. But I'd like to pick up the point that Petros made. The importance is so important. And to bring together the LGTBIQ community and general
25:46society more at large and to kind of dismantle this enemy picture that some politicians drew, and especially right wing politicians indeed drew.
25:56And what about the situation in Ukraine, an aspiring EU country, of course?
26:00Yeah, well, I think that EU there leads by example. And specifically on the on the example of Ukraine, Ukraine has held its first gay pride in 2013. Before that, there
26:11was no there was no gay pride in Ukraine. And in 2013, so we are talking slightly before Maidan, there have been a lot of protests and resistance from society
26:21for the for the gay pride, but it has been held. And then if you fast forward to 2019, 2019 saw the biggest gay pride in Ukraine and the most peaceful one.
26:30So I think that kind of shows that EU does lead for examples, and that countries who aspire to become EU members follow that lead. And I think we see a lot of
26:39improvement there.
26:40Okay, well, that is a very interesting discussion that we will have to keep an eye on, of course, as we follow EU enlargement, which has been slightly put
26:47on pause now as those elections take place. But with that, we can conclude this conversation. Thank you so much, Sofia Ruzak for being with us and also
26:55Petros and Anna for being our guests. And thank you for watching, as always here on Euronews. For any more information on any of our stories, and for more
27:04insight, in fact, into that rainbow map by ILGA Europe, you can check out our website, Euronews.com. But for now, thank you so much for watching. Take care. See you soon.
27:13Welcome back to Brussels, my love. I'm Maeve McMahan. And along with our panel, we're just sifting through the news of the week. And one that we could not let pass was this, the 68th
27:31edition of the Eurovision Song Contest that took place last weekend in Malmo, Sweden. Around 160 million viewers tuned in from all over the globe to witness
27:41Switzerland win with the song The Code by the artist Nemo, the first non-binary winner of the competition.
27:48I want to say thank you so much. I hope this contest can live up to its promise and continue to stand for peace and dignity for every person in the world.
28:01So who tuned in to the Eurovision Song Contest, Anna?
28:04Well, actually, I think I'm one of the very few people not watching Eurovision, but I never ever, but I'm very well informed on all the way, and especially of this one.
28:13And Sophia, did you watch it?
28:14I watched parts of it, but also not the whole show.
28:17I watched the whole thing. It was actually the first time I watched it together with my daughter, who is nine years old, and is finally getting into it. And it's great fun. It's also has been a
28:26tradition for me and my friends. It represents unity, diversity. It's a great occasion to celebrate the things that really make us European.
28:34So do you agree with that? Or do you think it's a little bit outdated?
28:36No, I don't think it's outdated. I mean, it's a 68-year-old tradition, right? I think it's quite amazing. It's a bit like a cultural stage of the EU or something like this. I mean, when do you ever have so many people watching the same thing on TV, right? What was it? 160, 170 million or something? I mean, it is quite remarkable.
28:53And I think it's also a source of pride for the countries that are participating. I think countries are very proud to have their representative and their performers singing on stage.
29:00Yeah, and you can see that the energy in the crowds is unbelievable. And of course, united in music. That was the motto for the contest. And politics, of course, it was always meant to be left at the door. But the contest always gets political. But lots of people in Brussels this weekend got very upset because of course, the EU flag was not allowed in. And we saw Margarita Skinas, the Vice President of the Commission, taking to Twitter to express his frustration that, you know, the EU flag is a symbol of this
29:30diversity and talent. And a month before the European elections, the EU flag perhaps should have been let in. Sophia, what would be your take on that?
29:37I must agree, I think with this. I think they went maybe a little step too far in attempting to be not political. Because in the end of the day, I understand that they want to make a case of we are only entertainment and we are not politics, right? Because once you open this Pandora's box, it's difficult to stop. But it is it has always been political.
29:55Of course, and this year, the music attracted less attention than the protests against Israel's participation, for example, Petros.
30:01Indeed, it's impossible to separate society from everything that's happening around. Entertainment is actually part of who we are. And whether we like it or not, it is important for artists to also voice their ideas and contribute their thoughts about the issues that matter to people. We want that we want that engagement. Again, the Commission recently called to Taylor Swift to come forward and encourage people to vote.
30:24And then we cannot just say, no, no, you're an artist, all you have to do is go on stage, sing, entertain us, and please keep your opinions to yourself. There is a contradiction there. On the contrary, we need to make sure that art, culture are part of our society and engage with the issues that really affect our lives.
30:40And last year's contest, I think was dominated by flags, the Ukrainian flags, in fact, and won the crates.
30:45Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, it is for Ukraine. Ukraine has taken home quite a few wins at Eurovision. It's a great source of pride for the nation to be part of this contest.
30:54And but going back to the politics, I think it has always been political. I think it's impossible to take politics out of of events of such magnitude and also sport is sport is political.
31:03So whenever we have so many countries participating in one event, unfortunately, as much as we want to leave the politics out of it, I don't think it's possible.
31:10And just briefly on Margarita Skinas' silk this week about the EU flag, do you think he's gotten over it by now?
31:17I don't think he should. He really should pass on the point with the EBU and ensure that because at the end of the day, what the European flag represents is something that a lot of Europeans relate with.
31:27And asking them to keep that flag out, it goes against what they feel is them.
31:33I'm going to wrap up this discussion. So, Fioruza, thank you as well for being with us. Petros and Anna Nalyvayko as well.
31:39And thank you so much for watching, as always. If you've any comments on anything you've heard today or any points as well you'd like to make on these upcoming European Parliament elections, please reach out.
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31:59Take care and see you soon.
32:03Bye.