What is the secret to Harley-Davidson's mass-market success and why has Indian been the only brand to make a dent and lodge itself in the mind of the American rider? Technical Editor Kevin Cameron and Editor-in-Chief Mark Hoyer talk about Harley-Davidson and Indian and what makes these bikes so successful here and around the world. Bring the thunder...
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Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6CLI74xvMBFLDOC1tQaCOQ
Read more from Cycle World: https://www.cycleworld.com/
Buy Cycle World Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/cycleworld
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00:00 Welcome to the CycleWorld podcast. I'm Mark Coyier, Editor-in-Chief. I'm with Kevin Cameron, our Technical Editor,
00:05 legendary in the motorcycle business.
00:08 Today we're talking about Harley-Davidson's and
00:12 Indians and why
00:15 cruisers really are the mass motorcycle market in America. Why are there millions and millions and millions of beggars?
00:23 Not kidding. There really truly are.
00:28 Since 2003
00:30 the classic sportster, the air-cooled sportster, sold
00:34 something on the order of 1.2 million
00:37 just from the redo in '03 with the rubber mounting.
00:42 The peak of the motorcycle market in the United States in
00:46 recent, relatively recent times was
00:49 2006-2007.
00:52 Harley-Davidson sold something on the order of
00:56 3,000 bikes that year,
00:58 370.
01:01 The peak around that time for sportsters was about 70,000 units in one year.
01:07 Beggars, which you know, they're not all 20,000 to 30,000, but certainly
01:14 they're not inexpensive and
01:18 they just sell and sell.
01:20 We're here to kind of look at that phenomenon.
01:24 One thing, I think I'd kind of like to lay the groundwork,
01:28 but Kevin, do you want to say hi?
01:30 I don't want to talk for five minutes. Five minutes uninterrupted, no.
01:36 Well, I just, I've always seen this,
01:41 even though when I was say
01:45 12 or 15 years old, it was still possible to find
01:52 an old 45 that you could buy for 50 bucks,
01:56 whereas now those things are gold.
01:59 So I think that if anything, the whole process has intensified and
02:06 Harley-Davidson and their, initially at least, their trustee ad agency in Minneapolis,
02:17 they didn't say you meet the nicest people. What they said was it's not a technical device. It's a lifestyle.
02:25 And I think that that was a
02:28 super penetrating observation on their part. I think that was a brilliant piece of work
02:35 because Harley
02:38 management had gone in the technology direction. They imagined that their
02:46 V4 designed offshore
02:48 was going to compete with Japanese products. And I think that
02:55 people who weren't immersed in the brand
02:58 realized that flexible manufacturing and all that other stuff was just running wild in Japan and that
03:06 if you wanted to poke that bear with a sharp stick,
03:10 you might not like the result.
03:15 So what those fellows said was,
03:17 "Harley-Davidson, wake up.
03:20 You have something that no one else has. You have an
03:25 ironclad," and I use that metal
03:28 advisedly,
03:31 "hold on
03:33 what is basically
03:35 Americanism. There is a nationalist fervor about Harley-Davidson motorcycles and
03:43 people who ride them in other countries, notably Japan,
03:46 are not just riding them because they're big and go blub blub blub, but because they're American."
03:54 So
03:56 this just...
03:58 It was a revolution and it worked very well for Harley-Davidson and it continues to work for them because they address
04:06 how people actually feel.
04:09 Well, that's... yeah, but yeah, look, sound and feel has been the stock and trade there.
04:14 Highly technical in the background, maintaining
04:18 that feeling,
04:20 serving that feeling, all the work for emissions and rideability and cooling and more power, all the things
04:27 that they do
04:30 remain
04:32 encapsulated in that feeling. And that feeling,
04:36 where does part of that come from? Generational loyalty.
04:39 That's the thing. Formulating a loyalty for a brand and a feeling and an experience for a brand.
04:46 Your great-grandfather rode a Harley. Maybe he rode one in the war, your grandfather, etc. They've been around and
04:54 the imprinting of that sound, A) it's a great sound, like it's, you know, it seems
05:00 the 45 degree B-twin seems to
05:05 speak to us in a way that also the 90 degree V-twin.
05:08 There's something about the cadence and the space between the beats and then the not space between the beats and
05:14 you know, we're going after the potato potato sound. We're protecting that in court, in fact,
05:21 because it is so important. But that generational loyalty and that's what, you know, I think
05:26 observing the cruiser market, the motorcycle market,
05:30 over the last, you know, 30 years plus,
05:34 what you've seen is Harley-Davidson winning on a non-technical basis.
05:40 Absolutely. A sporster sells, an air-cooled sporster from '03 to the last model that they sold,
05:47 more than a million units on an
05:53 entirely not technical basis. Yeah. I mean, they're good motorcycles. They're fun. They make a certain sound,
06:01 you know, and the exhaust ports didn't move, the intake ports basically didn't move,
06:06 the exhaust ports didn't move,
06:14 the intakes didn't move, the aftermarket was massive and you had a motorcycle that they made in many, many variations
06:22 that
06:25 the customer could then also make in many, many variations. And same with the big twins,
06:30 you know, we're going after that same thing,
06:32 that same look, sound and feel with all that technicality in the background. And I think
06:38 it's very interesting to me to see a
06:43 company like Harley-Davidson move in the technical direction, like let's get into adventure bikes,
06:49 you know, let's do the RevMax. And they seem to do that with relative ease. I thought that was
06:57 very praiseworthy. Well, those machines just came on the market and they got excellent reviews and so far so good.
07:07 Well, I think it was almost like,
07:09 it's always been a really technically oriented company and there are road racers all over it and
07:16 off-road enthusiasts, people, you know, the people who just love motorcycling. It's not, you know,
07:20 it's not just a bunch of guys in old t-shirts riding the Sturgis every year. It's much broader than that, the enthusiasm.
07:27 There's race engineers. And of course, you know, bagger racing is a
07:30 is a real powerful expression of the technical background of that company.
07:36 And I suspect it's still springtime in terms of that class. We don't know where that's going. Yeah.
07:42 But it was so interesting to me, you know, basically
07:46 Harley-Davidson put
07:49 most other cruiser makers out of business, you know. The Japanese built some pretty cool cruisers and good running bikes and they all, you know,
07:57 they worked pretty hard at it. But, you know, the number of large bore American style cruisers that are being sold from
08:05 Not Indian and Not Harley is really small. They kind of put them out of business and it's so interesting to me from a company perspective
08:12 that you would
08:15 expand your business into a technical market like adventure touring.
08:20 Well, I think they had finally evolved away from
08:27 the way they told me in the spring of '66
08:30 that they trained their engineers. They said
08:35 we like to get young men who have done well in high school drafting courses and
08:44 put them to work
08:47 drawing our product and after 10 years or so
08:52 when they show that they've got the flair for the way we like to do things,
08:57 they get some responsible jobs.
09:00 Now, it's not like that anymore and
09:04 the big change was the Evo engine which
09:08 was, it had a specific goal which was to overcome the loss of
09:15 brand reputation that occurred during the AMF years.
09:20 When an older design
09:22 encountered high-speed modern highways and the result was
09:27 noise, oil leaks, blown head gaskets and other calamities that
09:33 simply could not be tolerated. No amount of market
09:38 loyalty was going to overcome that and I remember in that period
09:43 being at
09:46 Aspen craze up at Lake George and
09:49 hearing a
09:51 man on a gold wing saying, "Well, yeah, I might like to ride a Harley again
09:58 but they're gonna have to clean up their act some before I can do that."
10:02 You make a really important point and it's a point that I make
10:06 with any manufacturer who will listen to me.
10:09 Not that I'm the ending expert on it, but it always goes back to the motorcycle.
10:15 You can say whatever you want about it, but the
10:18 fundamental goodness and the core qualities have to be expressed in the product. You can't just market it into existence.
10:26 Well, that was what England
10:29 took from their
10:32 investigation of American methods. They thought that promotion could sell anything and
10:39 they thought that
10:42 managers could manage
10:44 anything. They didn't have to know anything about the product. In fact, it was better if they didn't.
10:50 It was said in so many words and I remember going to those rah-rah meetings that Triumph put on
10:57 that just sounded like the Millennium was a coming.
11:01 It was a old-time
11:04 revival meeting spirit and it simply didn't work
11:11 because they weren't making what you described, a satisfactory product.
11:16 That's that
11:19 what does it do it it the product the successful product
11:26 satisfies the self-image of the buyer
11:29 and
11:32 and the and the attendant experience and I think
11:35 you know the trap the trap is
11:39 the trap for other manufacturers is Harley-Davidson sells
11:42 you know, they're sort of
11:45 180,000 units now, they're still in the you know, I don't know three to five billion somewhere in that range
11:51 for revenue and
11:54 Every manufacturer looks at that and says man if we could just get 10% like at the peak if you were looking at
12:03 2006 2007 and
12:06 180,000 units man. What if we just got 10% of that Wow, that that'd be amazing
12:12 But you have companies like Ducati like the Diavel
12:16 What a I mean what a fantastic motorcycle really interesting design and a very
12:22 very fun riding experience and it's you know, it's inspired by American cruisers and they're looking to get a percentage of that market and
12:31 They struggle to make the numbers that Italy wants
12:36 Because I don't know that they've ever just gone to Iowa for a month and gone to con to be twin rallies gone to a hearty
12:43 rally because
12:45 How does it satisfy the the mass American markets?
12:49 self-image when your self-image is
12:53 tied to
12:55 You know, like do we have to dress like Keith Richards? No pirates. No, I mean but
13:00 There's a sense of style and a feeling that's the thing like choppers
13:05 You could you can malign choppers for being terrible motorcycles and a lot of times they are
13:10 But you can also design a pretty good chopper, you know
13:13 There's a guy sugar bear who was making front ends that had that actually paid attention to geometry
13:19 And so you could have this massive rake, but you could have steering that wasn't completely suicidal. I mean fine
13:25 But jockey shift and all that other stuff and people like why why would you even ride that like what a terrible motorcycle?
13:32 what a piece of yet and
13:34 you know
13:35 there's a feeling associated with it and
13:38 You know it it echoes through the entire beat twin experience all those custom bikes
13:47 Inform your feeling about
13:50 Riding the stock bike it has the sound and it inspires you and I think you know the American customer
13:56 we're still a love market right the first thing that happens with a motorcycle is love and
14:02 everything else is a secondary or tertiary or
14:05 13th on the list a justification for having it. Oh it you know what it does get good mileage, doesn't it?
14:12 Oh, I can get to work faster
14:13 Oh, you know, there's hey, babe, we can ride this together or this bikes for you or you know, whatever all of that stuff
14:20 But it starts with love and if you don't have the love
14:23 Like where do you go? And and the love is also like you have that generational loyalty
14:28 But also that self-image and that feeling like, you know
14:32 There's the accessory that's sort of bubbled up around here in Southern, California
14:37 Is the bedroll right and it's an accessory like once it was, you know
14:42 There are plenty of guys still doing that but you go and you see a perfectly clean
14:47 Blanket tied to the front of a diner at your local biker hangout and it's not that we are
14:53 Going to you know ride free or die
14:57 It's not that we are all gonna live off our pan head and go camping and just live on the road and you know
15:03 Whatever. It's not that we're gonna ride our adventure bike to Alaska and it's not that we're gonna set the lap record at Laguna Seca
15:10 But we sure like to think we could and
15:14 We that that love and that feeling of self-image is how other manufacturers
15:23 They they fall into the trap. I mean the BMW r18 is a beautiful cruiser
15:29 It is beautifully made in a very specific riding box that it it's fun to ride
15:35 But it's it's so cruiser that it doesn't have some of the flexibility that's actually in the Harley product and
15:43 Their their grandfather didn't have that bike. It doesn't culturally resonate with the mass market
15:51 Well
15:53 We used to see a
15:56 Kind of ceremony when we had to try a dealership
16:00 Several fellows would come in maybe two three of them
16:05 We knew them they were customers and they had someone with them. We hadn't seen
16:10 And they would go over to a bike talking among themselves
16:14 Maybe a single carburetor 650. I don't know what I
16:19 don't recall but
16:21 They would stand around the bike talking and at a point one of them would say to the new boy
16:28 Why don't you get on it? See how you like it?
16:32 and
16:35 We would notice after these sessions that the rearview mirrors were adjusted so that the rider could see himself
16:42 and
16:45 He would sit on there and you could see that he was going through this
16:49 Transition of well that belongs to somebody else. I mustn't touch it -
16:56 This could be mine. I've bagged enough groceries to pay cash for this and
17:02 It was it was a group
17:07 Immersion in
17:11 Motorcycling and soon that young man
17:13 Would be would own a new Triumph motorcycle and I think
17:18 That's a that's a powerful thing
17:21 but Triumph messed
17:24 with their own identity because they imagined they could compete with Honda by
17:31 installing computers and American style management and
17:35 they came out with the oil and frame models and
17:40 Guys would come in and say kid can I get those?
17:44 You know the mufflers like they used to have I really like those mufflers. No, they're not available
17:49 Do you have to have them shiny fork bottles I like the ones that are you know painted black
17:57 Because that's the way it Triumph looked
18:00 That's what they wanted to buy was that identity
18:05 and
18:07 Yet we've seen manufacturer after manufacturer mess with it
18:11 At their peril. Yeah. Well the the audience the owners the current owners
18:17 Are your greatest asset in terms of you know, we could call it marketing, but it's not marketing. It's proselytizing, right?
18:25 You're you're living an experience and you're demonstrating that experience
18:30 And if the market is big like Harley that experience is is everywhere it echoes everywhere it echo it echoes in movies
18:38 You know, I mean, you know growing up in the 70s and 80s and watching chips and all these TV shows
18:43 There were a lot of criminals on motorcycles
18:47 but they loved using dirt bikes and making like two-stroke sounds for four strokes and four stroke sounds for two strokes and just all the
18:54 all the horrors
18:56 but
18:57 you know that particularly into the 80s the image of freedom and all the showings of
19:05 Riding v-twins to you know to be free is
19:08 Is really powerful and it's there's millions of them around
19:13 There's just millions of them go to go to Wisconsin go to Iowa go to California go to Maine
19:19 They're just everywhere
19:21 well, the
19:23 the durability of their look
19:25 Has its origins way back before World War one
19:32 because
19:33 Motorcycles were the cheapest motorized transportation you could buy and so motorcycle sales were very
19:40 strong before World War one
19:43 which began in 1914 in Europe and the US joined in
19:48 1917 but
19:51 at that time
19:53 America had its own oil fields
19:57 Texas Pennsylvania, etc. And so fuel was fuel was cheap
20:02 So engines could be large in Europe. All the fuel was important. It was expensive
20:08 So the emphasis was on getting all the performance possible from the smallest engine and the lightest motorcycle
20:17 Conditions in the US mostly dirt roads a lot of farm roads a lot of pounding
20:26 rigid frames large section squashy rear tires provided the only
20:31 suspension other than the seat springs and
20:35 That became the American motorcycle and then that course after the war there was a boom
20:43 but it didn't affect motorcycles because in
20:48 1913 Henry Ford came out with his Model T and it took the whole transportation market
20:56 leaving
20:57 motorcycles to athletic young men and police forces, so
21:02 Those were the markets they had to deal with when the Depression started in
21:08 1929 and the remarkable thing is that when the Depression started to ease up
21:14 Harley Davidson
21:18 Did a remarkable thing they built
21:21 Their first production overhead valve motorcycle as a completely modern
21:26 design and
21:29 that design has been
21:31 Modified and elaborated ever since we're still selling knuckleheads
21:38 still
21:39 Essentially, we're drawing that line from the rear axle that straight beautiful line all the way up to the steering head. It's still there
21:46 That's what a soft tail is what a soft tail is. We're still drawing that line
21:50 We still have the V in there
21:52 but
21:54 that motorcycle was a
21:56 technically advanced
21:59 Design because they couldn't afford to fail
22:02 So it had Harley Davidson's first pumped recirculating oil system and
22:11 Aside from making sure that all the parts get lubricated such a system also tends to level
22:20 the temperatures inside an engine and
22:23 That would shortly include the cylinder heads which are the hottest part
22:29 so
22:31 You will see from that beginning in 1936
22:36 through all the steps of
22:39 And all the
22:43 Substantial updates in the big twin that have occurred since then with a lot of little changes made between those steps
22:50 Continued theme of improving the cooling
22:54 Increasing the durability of parts and
22:59 increasing power to keep up with
23:02 the rising quality of American highways
23:06 and it was a
23:08 Harley Davidson's a specialist in Harley
23:12 iron motors who made that point to me very forcefully and I think it's an excellent one that
23:19 Harley's had to increase in power and deal with the greater heat that power produced by
23:26 improving cooling
23:29 steadily
23:30 since
23:32 1936 and it's still going on today because we see that the classic designs are
23:38 cooling the hot parts
23:41 Like between the two exhaust valves of the new eight valves
23:45 with liquid and
23:48 Riders are putting up with having those bathroom heaters in front of their knees
23:54 To guarantee that they can get from one side of Death Valley to the other with zero problems
24:01 And it wasn't always so
24:05 Cars and trucks are moving faster on the highways now, they're just
24:11 Rush hour is a is a mad
24:13 contrast between lock up zero motion
24:17 Two minutes later. You're doing 90 miles an hour to keep up with traffic and
24:22 On-ramps and passing these motorcycles are big and substantial
24:28 To keep up with that traffic
24:31 They're constantly making the engines bigger as they get the heat problems under control
24:37 They're able to raise the compression ratio which boosts torque at all rpm compression is
24:43 wonderful
24:46 if you have the means to deal with it and Harley Davidson have
24:50 Mastered all of the technology that they need to accomplish these goals
24:56 Yeah, there's a big there is a big change in say the last 20 years
25:02 For the Harley Davidson touring bike and also I want to talk about victory in Indian shortly, but
25:08 one thing I've noticed from testing motorcycles for a long time is
25:12 the really technically
25:15 Technically competent
25:19 Motorcycles can be rushed
25:22 So you can take a Yamaha MT07 to a photo shoot and whip it back and forth
25:30 Quick shifting double down shifts brake slide hackers do the u-turn get the photo do the wheelie do whatever you can just go back and forth
25:36 You can go like man
25:38 I got to get I got to get down this road and you just rip down the road and charge the corners you do
25:42 All this stuff you shift fast you do all these things and the motorcycle doesn't know it doesn't care
25:47 It doesn't change it just does what it's doing and you know 20 years ago
25:51 If you rushed a Harley touring bike the gearbox was going to tell you something
25:57 The brakes were not really up to task the suspension not so much
26:01 Oh wait, when they changed the touring line, they they updated the frame
26:06 they did a ton of work on them there and they got rid of the
26:09 Mostly got rid of the wiggle you're still rubber mounted
26:13 but you there was always a
26:15 Concerted wiggle in a corner on a Harley touring bike that if you pushed it a little hard it would start to kind of go
26:22 No, uh-uh and anymore you can get on, you know
26:26 you can get on any new bagger and just
26:29 Just whip it, you know do any of the soft tails just hammer them and they just don't care and
26:36 It's a it's a big big difference and you know, it is here in Southern, California
26:42 You're looking at easily 80 85 miles an hour on any freeway that that there isn't a traffic jam
26:49 Yeah, and it's no problem. Just click it in and if you want to go faster get the 135 and
26:55 technically competent motorcycle
26:57 Watch the scenery blur the crate motor 135 cubic inch crate motor. It's amazing and you can just bolt that in
27:04 Generational loyalty
27:09 Victory motorcycles came out
27:12 I want to say it was 4th of July
27:15 So 1994
27:18 Polaris launches victory
27:23 They're looking at the the big twin cruiser market and you know for for a time
27:28 They had the new American motorcycle, etc
27:30 Technically competent company and
27:34 Started building pretty good motorcycles and they got a lot better and victory
27:41 Victory was moving along pretty good 15 years after
27:45 You know after it had been launched. Yeah, but they were struggling to make 10,000 units
27:52 You know to sell 10,000 units
27:54 and when far from that 10%
27:57 right, and so
27:59 What's you know, what's the mystery? Well my grandparents, you know, my grandfather didn't have a victory
28:05 So you might like the bike but you don't have necessarily a generational or spiritual connection to it
28:10 And you don't see him around that much. It's a neat alternative
28:13 They worked pretty hard to sell them and they got to a certain point and then Polaris, you know
28:21 intelligently
28:23 Saw the Indian name available for purchase and bought it. I'll have that well
28:28 You know and you have that generational loyalty and you have all those Indian
28:34 Cues all those visual cues
28:36 They did a beautiful job
28:39 You know relaunching the brand
28:41 Paying homage to the flathead the basically the you know, the 53 chief
28:45 Putting the putting the swoopy fenders on it and and designing a motorcycle
28:50 designing a modern overhead valve the 111
28:52 Thunderstroke
28:55 a modern
28:57 you know heat shedding thing that you know looks looks flathead ish and that echoes the
29:02 the history of the brand and then the first year
29:05 Of having Indian Polaris doubled motorcycle sales
29:09 Yeah
29:11 And it was just that was it and so then when you look at well, we need a new engine
29:18 Are we going to put victory on that or we spend 20 million dollars or whatever it takes to build a new power plant to
29:23 To forge the brand ahead for 10 years to be the powertrain for 10 to 15 years or whatever you're planning on
29:29 And we're going to get
29:33 This dollar back. Well, what if we could get three dollars back or four dollars back on that investment?
29:38 And that was that was the business decision
29:40 To say like yep, we're going all in on Indian and that's a generational loyalty like it
29:46 You know, they have a they respected the brand they connected themselves to the history
29:51 They did technically everything, you know that you should do
29:55 to
29:57 treat
29:59 Treat the brand with the respect that it deserves and then they used all of that experience making a technically good product
30:05 But it finally clicked into a self-image
30:10 that someone had
30:12 about
30:13 riding a big twin
30:15 I went out to
30:17 Bonneville to see them Indian
30:20 people
30:22 Go for a record. Um, and they had a number of executives there who rode in on those very large
30:29 uh
30:32 bikes with the
30:33 with the waffle iron heads
30:35 And I noticed
30:39 that one of the bikes had
30:41 was painted a kind of
30:44 pale green cream color that was the same as my uncle's
30:48 1948 Buick
30:51 And it attracted me
30:54 Now that's not an accident those guys did their studying
30:59 They studied that because
31:03 In marketing courses that
31:06 Are trying to be effective
31:10 One of the most effective things you can do is to find out what part of your product is already
31:16 resident in the customer's brain
31:18 And speak to it
31:22 Wake it up
31:23 And start a conversation as they say nowadays
31:27 well, I was impressed with that pale green cream color which
31:32 awakened an emotion because
31:35 my sister my cousin and myself
31:39 Would jump into that car my uncle would drive us to the swimming pool
31:43 Even though he'd arrived in the middle of the night and was dead tired
31:47 He would say keep me awake shout do something crazy. Keep me awake
31:53 And we'd go swimming
31:55 And there would that car be waiting to take us home again
31:58 Lovely thing. Yeah, peter. You can tell us a story about buying his road king. He bought a road king. I think uh
32:05 I think it was an 0-9
32:08 and um, you know, he's uh
32:10 peter egan has to be one of the
32:13 Richest motorcycle customers. I don't mean I mean rich in experience. Uh
32:19 You know, he never uh, he never
32:22 Called the manufacturer and was like, hey, could I get a deal on whatever he just he's lived the experience
32:28 He's authentic and that's why you know, that's why peter is who he is. He's he's authentic
32:33 And he said, you know, he would go to the harley dealership and he would hang around and he would talk to the guys
32:38 and he would go to the you know, he'd go to the local triumph dealership and the honda and he just you know,
32:42 He'd go see lyle share down at the triumph, you know
32:46 And he'd he's see all his friends
32:48 And he said he went into harley dealership and he looked at this kind of it's I was like a a burgundy
32:53 You know this beautiful wine
32:55 color
32:56 And it had all the all the deep chrome. I mean if if you want to know, uh,
33:01 A big part of harley davidson's success. It's fostering and partnering the supply chain
33:06 That can make the chrome that does what chrome's supposed to do that can make the paint that does what paint's supposed to be
33:12 That has the depth and has the sheen
33:14 All those services textures colors contrast cut fins. You name it all of that stuff
33:21 Feeds into that beast and because carly had such a has such a volume
33:27 Suppliers really are motivated to do the job for them and to give them all those colors and textures
33:32 and that variety so you you know, you you harley's business model has been so great because it's like
33:39 Here's the base unit
33:41 And we can make all of these different things. Here's the touring model and it's it's an ultra
33:47 It's you know, grandma and grandpa going on a tour
33:51 It's the bagger. It's the slammed bagger with very little rear suspension travel to get the look
33:57 It's the long suspension travel for the comfortable touring bike and it's every color and texture and you see
34:03 man, you see the jukebox versions right where it's
34:07 It's springer front ends and it's candy colors and it's all those things and that clicks in as you said
34:13 It resonates with something that's already in you then you have this whole blacked out
34:19 Uh satin finish, you know, i'm tough i'm quiet. I'm the classic american hero, right?
34:24 and you can just keep doing that you can you know, there's like
34:29 A-panger version beach bar version all these things and they just iterate on that
34:36 and
34:38 Heart anyway going back to peter peter walked in and he you know, he was not shopping for a harley
34:45 But he looked at that bike in the burgundy color with the chrome and it was the new touring version
34:50 So the chassis was updated it still had the straight cut fifth gear which which made a whining sound that they went helical on I think
34:57 in 10 in 2010
34:59 um anyway
35:01 He said I had to have it
35:03 I had to have it and that
35:06 Is how it works like that
35:08 Fundamentally, that's how it works. I had to have it it
35:12 It evokes that feeling and whether i'm, you know, if it's a sport bike, I want to set a lap record at laguna
35:18 I want to ride a ride to alaska
35:21 on my adventure bike or
35:24 I have this vision of myself feeling great rolling down the highway and I know how I look because
35:30 I have been imprinted with
35:33 And memories of the coolest people riding by not everybody looks great on a harley
35:38 But you forget about the ones you don't like and you remember the ones you do and that's how you look
35:42 That's why we all wanted to look like don kane man. Don kane has perfect style on a bike. It's beautiful and he leans
35:49 More than anyone like he can he can take a bike to the very limit and drag fairing panels, you know
35:56 It's just amazing and we envision ourselves that way and that's that's it. Peter had to have that motorcycle
36:03 And that's that variety of silhouette and color and texture and all the things
36:08 Expressing being expressed in the product that resonate with us and our self-image
36:14 Yes
36:16 You know you look at some of the early diablo ducati diablo marketing materials
36:21 and
36:22 The the bike looks great. The finishes are great. It's it's got all the ducati sounds
36:27 trellis frame big beefy tires and
36:31 Tail pipes and all the stuff. It's got that great 11 degree motor that they 11 degrees. Yes, the very short overlap
36:38 So massive torque right off the bottom
36:40 You could just hit that thing and go
36:42 And then they had this like beautiful italian boy in a super tight leather jacket with a silk scarf
36:48 and you know
36:51 We don't I have I have not seen that guy in iowa
36:53 Ever no and I wouldn't confuse him with teddy roosevelt either, right?
36:59 And it's it's just a you know, it's just a different vision, right? It's just a different vision of what's going on
37:05 So it's you know, um, I gotta have it. Yes, it fits my self-image and it's been imprinted
37:13 And it's no bad thing that
37:17 the sound of the engine
37:19 Reminds you of a p47 that has just been started up
37:25 Sure, and they're going to taxi out to the head of the strip. I tell you what
37:30 If if i'm if i'm working at product planning in indian and or i'm working at product planning in harley davidson
37:37 I'm going to go to eaa. I'm going to go to oshkosh
37:42 Yes, and i'm going to look at cessna 195s
37:46 I'm going to look at art. I'm going to look at art deco aircraft and radial aircraft engines
37:51 Because it's we're still
37:55 Taking that feeling with us
37:57 my dad
37:58 Took me with him to new york in
38:00 1947 or 48 and we flew on a convair 240
38:06 And
38:10 Boarding that airplane you look at the engine
38:13 on your side
38:15 And it has these these beautifully curved fins
38:19 Covering it everywhere
38:21 and the engine
38:24 its shape
38:26 Reproduces the shape of what is inside
38:30 It is shrink-wrapped
38:32 The cases and the other parts are shrink-wrapped
38:35 Onto the functional parts so that those the shape of those parts is revealed to your eye
38:42 It's honest
38:44 This this is this is real stylists haven't
38:48 poured heavy cream on this
38:52 It's beautiful in a way that I find irresistible
38:56 and
38:59 the fellows that uh at victory said well, you're not going to like this thing because
39:04 Because I had told them that I believed
39:07 That this shrink-wrapped functional look was essential
39:11 But when they built their engine the stylists were allowed a pretty free hand and it looked like
39:19 Soviet realism of the 1920s with skyscrapers presented as jutting out at angles
39:25 And it just didn't resonate with me
39:30 but
39:32 I think
39:34 Harley davidson when you when you read the chronology you see fin depth increased to one inch
39:41 Or oil circulation increased by a larger oil pump and you know
39:47 That these are symptomatic of gradually increasing power
39:51 And the opportunity to ride faster and longer
39:55 which creates more problems with heat so
39:59 I feel that the whole story is very
40:03 authentic because
40:06 If it weren't they wouldn't work, right?
40:09 And they've been working right for for a good long time now
40:15 There was a time the amf years and before that
40:18 but
40:20 Again, those problems had a technical origin
40:23 why did the gaskets leak not because the gaskets weren't good, but because
40:28 The cylinders were base bolted
40:33 There was very little springiness in those bolts. So when the parts expanded as they got hot
40:41 Fasteners were stretched permanently
40:43 So that when it cooled down
40:46 There was less preload on the gasket and that process went on until it leaked
40:51 And that's why the evo has through studs
40:55 You should explain that so that we you know, we have a short you have a short thing. That's like an inch long
41:01 It doesn't have the opportunity
41:04 It doesn't have the opportunity to have any not any but it has little elasticity
41:09 But if you make the bolt or a stud
41:11 nice and long you have the ability to stretch and you have some flexibility and you have a uh, let's say a
41:19 More constant clamping force over a temperature long the long fastener can
41:24 uh stand the stretching without
41:28 uh
41:29 Yielding. Yeah, take a look at it this way 10 of this or 10 of this. Absolutely
41:36 Right. That's the story
41:38 And that's why that decision was made for evo and that's also why the evo has a short
41:44 exhaust port
41:46 because um
41:48 Among others harry ricardo observed that half of the heat taken up
41:54 from combustion by the cylinder heads
41:57 Comes in through the walls of the exhaust port because the conditions for heat transfer are tremendous
42:03 extremely high velocity
42:06 very high temperature
42:08 I gotta say
42:10 Yeah, when you say when you say that I have to say jim fueling and now jim fueling
42:14 Made an entire career doing many many many creative things
42:18 But he built a career
42:21 On making exhaust ports as short and as small in diameter as would be
42:27 Uh able to accommodate flow. Yep
42:32 Keeping the heat from going into the head. He did it. He did it for harley more than once helping them
42:37 uh
42:39 Get the heat
42:40 He had the science of it. The pioneer before him was jaco johnson
42:45 I I answered the phone one evening and the voice said
42:50 Hi, this is jaco. Johnson and I thought
42:54 hot rod magazine in the 1960s
42:57 What jaco johnson did was?
43:02 He looked at a at a mopar
43:04 cylinder head exhaust port and he said
43:07 The roof of the port was all all these parallel lines. He said you could you could just imagine the flow just
43:14 Rushing past there and then they looked down at the floor of the port and it's all these little swirls
43:20 It reminds you of the eddies where a stream makes a corner
43:23 And he said nothing happening down there. I'm going to fill that in
43:29 And then he would raise the top of the port and that's where we get raised and brazed
43:34 The raised and brazed exhaust port was worth four tenths of a second
43:39 In the quarter mile, which is an incredibly large chunk in drag racing. And
43:45 Of course he made the port smaller
43:49 And jim fueling realized I could sell this to detroit because those guys don't have a clue
43:57 And he went to he described to me being in a boardroom with the people who had hired him
44:03 And seated at a table and all turned to look at him the row of engineers
44:08 many of them from
44:11 prestigious offshore universities
44:13 and
44:15 the big man turns to fueling and says
44:17 Our engineers tell us
44:22 that your
44:23 Plans to alter our cylinder head do not lie on the line of best practice
44:28 Tactic diplomacy engage tactic diplomacy. How do we deliver this message without
44:36 Delivering it well
44:41 fueling then said
44:43 It comes down to a question of which you would rather include in your engine the superior performance that you have
44:51 Yourselves measured in the parts designed as I suggested
44:55 or the curve of best practice
44:58 Well, I thought it was wonderful, yeah
45:03 Well if we're going to be authentic
45:07 We gotta you gotta pay attention to the truth stick to the truth. Yes. Yep
45:14 Then alternative reality is a hard thing to maintain
45:20 Yeah
45:21 But this is it's a it's a good time to say
45:24 Um, the reason that big twins are the american motorcycle market is because it suits the bulk of our riding desires
45:32 It has a generational impact on our psychology
45:36 Our family life our social life
45:39 Our living they really they suit what we want to do in a in a bulk way and they evoke
45:45 They evoke our dreams in a way that america is big
45:50 The roads are long
45:52 Europe is small
45:54 The roads are winding. Yep
45:56 Uh, these differences are built in
45:59 America has the legend of the man alone the high plains drifter, etc
46:05 He don't say much but don't mess with him. Yeah
46:09 We see in the advertisement
46:12 Harley davidson parked in the in the
46:19 Light of evening under a street light and in the background
46:23 Is a defunct factory
46:26 There's no person in the image
46:28 Is the rider in that factory
46:32 If so, what is he doing there?
46:35 We don't know
46:37 But something adventurous for sure
46:39 Oh, come on. We're all going to eat
46:43 But that's the image that's one of the images that I see in advertising over and over is a
46:49 presentation of a motorcycle
46:53 With an industrial building. Yep
46:55 We're getting stuff done
46:58 Yeah
46:59 well, you know what I love i'm we're going to finish on I love that the uh,
47:03 The the bagger silhouette and
47:09 The thirst for performance and big block power and all those things that are happening has been extended into moto america road racing
47:17 and as
47:18 It's resonating with a huge audience outside of normal road racing audience. It's the it's a beautiful outreach marketing play
47:26 People who love racing, you know, hey, we've seen your comments. Some of you don't like it, but
47:31 More people like it than don't a lot more people like it than don't and I think um
47:37 What a beautiful way to extend
47:39 Uh the image of american riding and that we you know in america, what do we do we will race
47:46 anything
47:48 And uh, this stands as proof
47:50 Yes
47:52 I agree
47:53 Thanks for listening everybody
47:55 Uh hit us in the comments
47:58 Let us know what you think of this episode what you think of harley davidson and indian
48:01 versus other companies building, uh
48:05 Big bore cruisers for the american market and the american mind
48:08 American metric cruisers we do. Um
48:12 You know like we appreciate your support here we've uh watched podcasts grow we're uh, really glad to have you along for the ride
48:21 And uh, we'll see you next week. Thank you. You bet