11th Hour | Waseem Badami | ARY News | 14th May 2024
#11thHour #JusticeBabarSattar #IslamabadHighCourt #AsimMunir #Establishment #QaziFaezIsa #SupremeCourt #ptileader #pmshehbazsharif #waseembadami
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Waseem Badami
Guests:
- Senator Humayun Mohmand PTI
- Senator Afnan Ullah PMLN
- Justice (R) Shaiq Usmani
- Basit Ali (Former Cricketer)
- Kamran Akmal (Former Cricketer)
Justice (R) Shaikh Usmani's analysis on Justice Babar Sattar's allegations
"Govt Ko Bacha Jamura Ban Kay Anay Ki Koi Zarorat Nahi", PTI Leader
" Judges Ke Kaam Mein Mudakhlat Bilkul Nahi Honi Chahiye.." Noon Leaguei Rehnuma Senetor Afnan Ullah
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Waseem Badami
Guests:
- Senator Humayun Mohmand PTI
- Senator Afnan Ullah PMLN
- Justice (R) Shaiq Usmani
- Basit Ali (Former Cricketer)
- Kamran Akmal (Former Cricketer)
Justice (R) Shaikh Usmani's analysis on Justice Babar Sattar's allegations
"Govt Ko Bacha Jamura Ban Kay Anay Ki Koi Zarorat Nahi", PTI Leader
" Judges Ke Kaam Mein Mudakhlat Bilkul Nahi Honi Chahiye.." Noon Leaguei Rehnuma Senetor Afnan Ullah
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00 In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
00:13 Assalamu Alaikum, this is Wasim Badami for Programme 11TAR.
00:16 Today, we have a very interesting, or a very sad, or an important, but a very honorable topic.
00:23 The role of the courts in the entire system of Pakistan is very important.
00:30 The history of interference in the judicial system of Pakistan is full.
00:34 I have not used the word 'Mubayyana' in this.
00:37 Because there are some things that are accused of being influenced by someone,
00:41 or maybe there was some decision under pressure.
00:44 But many things are established facts.
00:46 That is why I did not use the word 'maybe' in this.
00:51 For example, the highest profile case in the court of Pakistan,
00:54 from a political point of view, is that,
00:56 as a result of which, a former Prime Minister was hanged,
01:01 i.e. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
01:03 The court officially accepted that this case is not even worth referring to.
01:08 We are ashamed of this.
01:10 The relevant judge accepted that we were under pressure.
01:13 He came to the television and told us in detail what had happened.
01:17 Or there are many such incidents.
01:19 Let's go back to the past.
01:21 Imran Khan's government was in power.
01:23 There was a judge at that time, Qazi Faiz Isa, who is the Chief Justice now.
01:27 A reference was issued against him.
01:29 The people of the government at that time,
01:31 used to give a lot of arguments as to how this reference is based on truth and reality,
01:37 and why it is necessary to investigate it.
01:39 And why does this Faiz Isa not tell what the issue is,
01:42 and what are its foundations, etc.
01:44 And there was an impression at that time,
01:46 that perhaps due to a decision of Faiz Isa, which was the Faizabad protest,
01:51 perhaps due to the Faizabad protest,
01:53 someone is upset with him, and that is why all this is going on.
01:56 This was the impression.
01:57 The speculation on this impression ended at that time,
01:59 when the then Prime Minister, Imran Khan,
02:01 himself said after leaving his government,
02:03 that it was on the orders of Faiz and Bajwa Sahib that I had advanced it.
02:07 So now we know that there were institutions behind it at that time,
02:10 and there are many such cases.
02:13 Fast forward to the present day,
02:16 there is speculation that this is still happening.
02:19 Six judges wrote in the past few days,
02:21 six judges wrote in the past few days,
02:25 that we are being influenced,
02:27 cameras are being used, etc.
02:29 What is the purpose of discussing all this today?
02:32 Today another case has been presented.
02:34 Audio leaks are going on,
02:36 we will not go into the details of that case now.
02:38 There is a related judge,
02:40 who is neither from Islamabad High Court,
02:42 nor is he from Babur Sattar.
02:44 Various allegations were made against him on social media,
02:48 he wrote a letter on that,
02:50 and the case of the court of appeals is already being carried out on the basis of that letter.
02:53 That is a different matter.
02:54 Today he wrote another letter to his related Chief Justice,
02:57 in which he said that
02:59 the case of audio leaks that I am hearing,
03:03 I have been given a direct message from the top officials of the establishment,
03:08 that you should stay away from this case.
03:10 This is a big thing in both cases.
03:12 This allegation is proved right,
03:14 even if it is not proved right,
03:16 that a sitting judge,
03:18 a sitting Chief Justice,
03:20 without taking the name of the sitting official of the sitting establishment,
03:24 he is saying that I have been told about this existing case,
03:28 that you should stay away from this.
03:30 Although we have not spent much time in our recent history,
03:32 another incident has also passed.
03:34 When a sitting judge, whose name was Shaukat Siddiqui,
03:36 was also saying about the existing case of the sitting establishment,
03:40 that I have been told about this,
03:42 he wrote down the name, address, date and time of the house,
03:48 that this is my name, I am Shaukat Siddiqui,
03:50 I am the judge of this High Court.
03:52 These institutions have influenced my Chief Justice.
03:56 They have said that we should not put him in the case of Nawaz Sharif,
03:59 because we need decisions against Nawaz Sharif before the election.
04:02 And then he told in more details,
04:04 that this gentleman came to my house the other day,
04:06 his name was General Faiz,
04:08 he told me that the case of Nawaz Sharif will come to you,
04:10 what will you decide?
04:12 I said that I will decide on the merit of the case,
04:14 he said that you should not do this,
04:16 if the decision comes in his favour, then all our efforts will be wasted.
04:18 So it is unfortunate, but our history is full of such references,
04:22 in which a new addition has been made today.
04:24 This allegation is true,
04:26 it is wrong,
04:28 only time will tell.
04:30 But there has been a reaction to this.
04:32 Both the law and the ministers have reacted.
04:34 You see that Azam Nazeer Tariq Sahib
04:36 and Attaullah Tariq Sahib are saying that
04:38 this allegation is wrong.
04:40 Actually, a letter was written,
04:42 which was not a secret,
04:44 which was not a threat,
04:46 which was not a message that you should stay away.
04:48 A letter was written that
04:50 there is a sensitivity involved in this matter,
04:52 so do it in camera.
04:54 They said something like this.
04:56 What did they say?
04:58 A message is given from the General,
05:00 it is written in a different way.
05:02 I am being told to step back.
05:04 This is not based on the facts.
05:06 A camera briefing was requested,
05:08 it was done for national security.
05:10 No one gave this message
05:12 that you should step back.
05:14 An impression was created,
05:16 that there is interference in the court.
05:18 A letter was sent to the six judges,
05:20 on their letter, the government
05:22 immediately made a commission,
05:24 that there should be a balance between milk and water.
05:26 It is the position of the institutions.
05:28 All institutions should have
05:30 some space for each other.
05:32 Any way, the court,
05:48 the work of the court,
05:50 the responsibilities of the court,
05:52 can not interfere in that.
05:54 I am not going to give
05:56 any impression of this.
05:58 I strongly deny this.
06:00 That letter,
06:02 since it is on social media,
06:04 please pay attention to its content
06:06 and see what they have said
06:08 that it was a violation of justice.
06:10 A message that has been
06:12 communicated from anywhere,
06:14 and I will elaborate on this
06:16 more,
06:18 that according to my knowledge,
06:20 no security establishment
06:22 officer has said
06:24 that the officer has not
06:26 contacted any kind of direct
06:28 and neither can they do it.
06:30 Welcome back to the program.
06:40 We have with us,
06:42 Pakistan Tariq-e-Insaf and Pakistan Muslim League,
06:44 the senior leaders of both the parties,
06:46 the people who are in contact with the leaders of both the parties,
06:48 Senators, Dr. Humayun Muhammad,
06:50 from PTI,
06:52 and Mr. Afnanullah Khan,
06:54 from PMLN.
06:56 I am very thankful to both of them.
06:58 Mr. Afnan, Assalam-o-Alaikum.
07:00 Wa-Alaikum-Salaam.
07:02 Sir, thank you very much for your time.
07:06 Sir, tell us,
07:08 this is a very
07:10 worrying thing for you,
07:12 if I may say so,
07:14 that in your party,
07:16 in the recent history,
07:18 and in the distant past,
07:20 you have been accused of being
07:22 influenced by the government
07:24 and of being affected by the judiciary.
07:26 And there was a lot of weight in those accusations,
07:28 whether it was Musharraf's era or the current era.
07:30 In your era,
07:32 the judges going to such an extent
07:34 that six judges are writing letters together,
07:36 one judge is writing letters again and again
07:38 that my character is being tarnished,
07:40 and on the basis of those,
07:42 that sir, there is interference here,
07:44 your government should not
07:46 investigate this further,
07:48 and you should come and tell us that
07:50 this is being given a wrong tone and
07:52 nothing of that sort, and end the matter.
07:54 Yes, in the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Merciful.
07:56 Look, the thing is that
07:58 there is no doubt in this,
08:00 that if a letter of this kind is being written,
08:02 then that is not a good thing.
08:04 And I understand that
08:06 if you look at the text of that letter,
08:08 then it does not seem like
08:10 we are being accused of doing something,
08:12 but the accusation that is being made,
08:14 that is also not a good thing,
08:16 that one institution is accusing another
08:18 institution of such a big crime,
08:20 and this is not the first time that
08:22 this has been accused,
08:24 it has a history.
08:26 So, the position of the government
08:28 in this is that,
08:30 as it has been said,
08:32 that there were not
08:34 any people from the establishment,
08:36 but there were some other people
08:38 who had written a letter,
08:40 and on the basis of that,
08:42 this matter has been raised.
08:44 If this accusation is as serious as you are saying,
08:46 and you are right that
08:48 we were not accused,
08:50 but the government has taken a side
08:52 that the minister of law came and
08:54 accused one institution of another,
08:56 and the minister of law came
08:58 and took a side of one institution
09:00 and said that brother, they are saying that
09:02 there is nothing like that,
09:04 so you should not be neutral
09:06 and conduct investigations,
09:08 instead of being on one side.
09:10 Look, I think that these investigations
09:12 will not be extended,
09:14 but the previous letter will be extended.
09:16 So, the cases that are being
09:18 brought up on the previous letter,
09:20 this case is already present
09:22 in the Supreme Court.
09:24 So, they will take up
09:26 and the decision will be made
09:28 on what they think is better.
09:30 But keep one thing in mind,
09:32 I respect Babar Sattar sir a lot,
09:34 but there are many judges
09:36 who do justice.
09:38 Now, for example, the accused in Lahore,
09:40 who is saying that these bikes
09:42 will be taken outside the girls' college,
09:44 and the boys will be taken outside
09:46 the girls' hostel,
09:48 and the boys will be taken outside
09:50 the girls' hostel,
09:52 this is not the work of the judge.
09:54 This is also a phase of the accused
09:56 which is clearly visible
09:58 that he is taking a different
10:00 approach against our government.
10:02 But let me talk to you briefly.
10:04 We have a former judge with us.
10:06 I will come to you again from Afdhan.
10:08 Let me talk to him.
10:10 Former judge, Mr. Shahid Qusmani,
10:12 who of course served in Sindh High Court
10:14 while being a senior judge.
10:16 Huzoor, Assalam-o-Alaikum, Mr. Shahid.
10:18 Yes, Wa-Alaikum-Salaam.
10:20 Sir, thank you very much for your time.
10:22 First of all,
10:24 please tell us
10:26 what is your opinion on this?
10:28 How important is it for you
10:30 that first six judges write a letter,
10:32 then one judge Babar Sattar
10:34 writes a letter repeatedly,
10:36 and then the top establishment official
10:38 asks you to separate yourself from the audio leaks.
10:40 So first of all, tell us how important is it for you?
10:42 And secondly, what exactly should be done?
10:44 Look,
10:46 every judge
10:48 has this problem.
10:50 Because our tradition
10:52 and our tradition is that
10:54 when there is a problem
10:56 or a situation,
10:58 they try to
11:00 put pressure on
11:02 the person who is going to judge.
11:04 This is our nature in Pakistan.
11:06 So this thing
11:08 every judge has to face.
11:10 But to face this,
11:12 every judge has all the powers
11:14 and can stop them.
11:16 First of all,
11:18 his own impression should be
11:20 that the person who wants to
11:22 approach him,
11:24 knows that by approaching this person,
11:26 nothing will be achieved.
11:28 First of all, his impression should be there.
11:30 Secondly, he has
11:32 so many powers that
11:34 he can correct him.
11:36 He can give him a notice,
11:38 call him,
11:40 arrest him without a warrant,
11:42 can do a thousand things.
11:44 Instead of using his powers,
11:46 if he starts writing letters
11:48 to the judge,
11:50 then it will not benefit the judge,
11:52 but it will ruin
11:54 his reputation.
11:56 And people's impression
11:58 will be that the situation abroad is very bad.
12:00 I think
12:02 this position is such that
12:04 if you can't take the pressure,
12:06 don't accept the job.
12:08 That is the point.
12:10 If you are given a job,
12:12 you need to accept it
12:14 so that you can take the pressure.
12:16 I don't think it is appropriate
12:18 for a judge to write such letters
12:20 that this happened to us,
12:22 that happened to us.
12:24 You take the action yourself.
12:26 And if you are not able to take action,
12:28 then it is not right.
12:30 And the action you are talking about
12:34 is to either give him a notice,
12:36 call him, or arrest him.
12:38 Did the court give you this authority?
12:40 Absolutely.
12:42 You see what powers you have.
12:44 This situation happens with every judge.
12:46 You give him a notice,
12:48 he doesn't come,
12:50 you issue a warrant of arrest against him,
12:52 a non-bailable warrant of arrest.
12:54 He will come running to you,
12:56 and you will arrest him.
12:58 You have to follow your own rules.
13:00 Does the government have any responsibility
13:02 in this?
13:04 No, the government has nothing to do with this.
13:06 The judge has nothing to do with the government.
13:08 The judge is a different thing from the judge.
13:10 The executive is a different thing.
13:12 There should never be any kind of conflict
13:14 between the two.
13:16 There have been many judges,
13:18 like Karni Jeffs, Hamood Rahman,
13:20 but no one has ever been subjected to such a situation.
13:22 There is a need for it.
13:24 If you cannot take the pressure,
13:26 don't become a judge.
13:28 Resign and leave.
13:30 The six judges who had complained
13:32 together,
13:34 was that the ideal way?
13:36 Or was that not the ideal way?
13:38 No, that was not the ideal way.
13:40 I said that the court has come under pressure.
13:42 I don't know if I said this on your channel,
13:44 but I said it on many other channels.
13:46 The court has come under pressure.
13:48 The court has come under pressure.
13:50 The court has come under pressure.
13:52 I said it on many other channels.
13:54 The six judges who had written that letter,
13:56 they could not have refused.
13:58 Writing a letter to them is a misconduct.
14:00 When they wrote a letter to the Supreme Judicial Council,
14:02 the Supreme Judicial Council
14:04 wanted that they should be called
14:06 and heard.
14:08 After hearing,
14:10 if they were in camera,
14:12 they would do the proceedings
14:14 and decide what to do.
14:16 They would call everyone and talk to them,
14:18 which the Chief Justice could not do.
14:20 The Supreme Judicial Council could have done it.
14:22 But instead of doing this,
14:24 the Supreme Court gave a
14:26 so-called notice
14:28 and it was publicly displayed.
14:30 This is a wrong way
14:32 of using it.
14:34 This happens in every country in the world.
14:36 And in no country in the world
14:38 does this happen.
14:40 It happens in our country.
14:42 Because people like this cannot be pressured.
14:44 And then they put the burden
14:46 on someone else
14:48 to get the justice done.
14:50 You have been on such an important post
14:54 in the Sindh High Court.
14:56 Did you ever have to face such a situation?
14:58 It has happened to me once or twice.
15:00 But I did not have any problem.
15:02 I took action.
15:04 And the result was
15:06 what I wanted.
15:08 What action did you take?
15:12 Warrant for arrest.
15:16 Was the person arrested?
15:18 No, he was not arrested.
15:20 He came running to apologize.
15:22 Who was he?
15:26 I don't want to say who he was.
15:28 It's a very old story.
15:30 Now it will be on record.
15:32 It will not be with any secrecy.
15:34 I don't want to talk about it.
15:36 It's a very old thing.
15:38 But this action was taken
15:40 and I did not have any problem.
15:42 I never had any problem.
15:44 If you could tell us
15:46 where our guest came from?
15:48 Wabda, Pakistan Cricket Board.
15:50 Which one?
15:52 There is no need to tell you.
15:54 He came from some executive.
15:56 But when I took action
16:00 the matter was over.
16:02 He did not belong to the establishment?
16:06 He belonged to the establishment.
16:08 He did?
16:12 Yes.
16:14 Earlier, Mr. Shaukat Siddiqui
16:16 gave an example.
16:18 Was that the right way?
16:20 He was against it.
16:22 Mr. Shaukat Siddiqui's way
16:24 was also wrong.
16:26 He went to a speech
16:28 and said, "What is the need to say?"
16:30 "This is a personal matter."
16:32 "Someone has said this to you."
16:34 "You take action against him."
16:36 "You don't need to talk about it
16:38 elsewhere."
16:40 "You don't need to do it."
16:42 "You don't need to display it publicly."
16:44 If it is that simple
16:48 then I think, as an outsider
16:50 I want to understand
16:52 if it is that crystal clear and that simple
16:54 then why don't judges adopt this method?
16:56 That he has threatened,
16:58 call him and arrest him.
17:00 The problem is
17:02 that there are many judges
17:04 who cannot take pressure
17:06 and they want to
17:08 move forward and tell others
17:10 so that
17:12 there is nothing against them.
17:14 They say such things.
17:16 "You don't need to do it. You have the power."
17:18 "You take action. End this matter."
17:20 We will go into the history
17:26 but I will continue the discussion
17:28 with other guests.
17:30 The highest profile case
17:32 in the entire judicial history
17:34 in the sense that a former prime minister
17:36 was hanged.
17:38 The judge himself came and told about it.
17:40 Naseem Hasan Shah in an interview
17:42 and many other places that this was the pressure.
17:44 Should they just go scot-free?
17:46 Or should there be a process
17:48 that you are agreeing
17:50 that you are a former prime minister
17:52 who was the center of hopes of millions of people
17:54 and a representative of millions of people
17:56 and because of giving pressure to someone
17:58 and taking pressure from someone, he was hanged.
18:00 How can you? And you are agreeing.
18:02 You are admitting it.
18:04 You can go home and sleep after cleaning up.
18:06 There will be punishment.
18:08 Shouldn't this be done with the one who is giving pressure
18:10 and also with the one who is taking pressure?
18:12 Yes, I accept that action should have been taken
18:14 against him.
18:16 When he wrote in his book
18:18 that he should have taken action
18:20 against him.
18:22 He did not take action
18:24 in the time of the government.
18:26 What can you say about that?
18:28 Action should be taken against such people
18:30 who say such things.
18:32 This is the pressure we were given.
18:34 This is an individual thing.
18:36 Thank you very much, sir.
18:38 Thank you.
18:40 Yes.
18:42 Yes.
18:44 Thank you very much.
18:46 Justice Shahid Ghusmani
18:48 who himself was a judge in Sindh High Court
18:50 was telling his side of the story
18:52 and his opinion.
18:54 Humayun Mohammad is a Pakistan Tariq-e-Insaf
18:56 and of course a senator.
18:58 Humayun, what will you say?
19:00 And again, I expect the same
19:02 from you as I did from Mr. Afnan.
19:04 I am repeating this again and again
19:06 in my presentation that if we want to
19:08 correct the system,
19:10 then everyone should speak the whole truth.
19:12 I expect that if you
19:14 misunderstand this today,
19:16 then what about what happened
19:18 with Mr. Shaukat Siddiqi yesterday
19:20 when you were in power?
19:22 So, please give your overall opinion
19:24 on what you will say in this case.
19:26 In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
19:28 Thank you Mr. Badami.
19:30 You raised a very
19:32 important issue
19:34 and gave me
19:36 an invitation.
19:38 I have heard Justice
19:40 Mr. Faiq
19:42 Shahid Ghusmani
19:44 Mr. Ghusmani
19:46 Mr. Shahid Ghusmani
19:48 Sabir Singh Justice in Sindh High Court
19:50 Yes, and I have also heard
19:52 Mr. Afnan.
19:54 But let me tell you one thing.
19:56 The biggest problem
19:58 is that we easily
20:00 lie.
20:02 You are right, what is wrong
20:04 today was wrong yesterday, was wrong the day before
20:06 and will be wrong in the future.
20:08 Now, the biggest thing
20:10 in this is that
20:12 look at the beauty of Imran Khan
20:14 that he
20:16 came to Saryam and said
20:18 and accepted his mistake.
20:20 We have people here
20:22 who have not made a mistake
20:24 and have not accepted it.
20:26 Whether we
20:28 forced the judges
20:30 to go and
20:32 try to buy the judges
20:34 and bribe them
20:36 and sent them with a briefcase
20:38 to do this.
20:40 That is also a kind of pressure,
20:42 money pressure or
20:44 some other pressure.
20:46 If you do this or not, then take this money
20:48 and do this.
20:50 And today,
20:52 the judge is trying to defend
20:54 the line.
20:56 This is a strange thing.
20:58 But as you said
21:00 just now,
21:02 you talked about Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
21:04 in front of Mr. Usmani.
21:06 Justice Sabdar Shah was also there.
21:08 He deferred it.
21:10 He did not take pressure.
21:12 He left Pakistan.
21:14 But he did not
21:16 let himself be involved
21:18 in that deep crime.
21:20 Now the question is
21:22 that all those judges who took that decision,
21:24 should they be
21:26 tried for murder or not?
21:28 Because they
21:30 technically killed a person.
21:32 Now they
21:34 took advantage of that system and killed.
21:36 Now when that system
21:38 was killed,
21:40 those who pressurized them,
21:42 those who pressurized them,
21:44 those who pressurized them,
21:46 the question arises
21:48 that were people
21:50 equally involved
21:52 when they were forced to kill?
21:54 When they were forced to kill,
21:56 when someone forced
21:58 the Supreme Court bench
22:00 to do all this,
22:02 are they involved in that deep crime?
22:04 Yes or no?
22:06 If they are all involved,
22:08 then in the name of all those people,
22:10 they should be
22:12 officially removed
22:14 from their positions.
22:16 If we cannot
22:18 punish them,
22:20 at least we should
22:22 strike down their name from those positions.
22:24 Number two,
22:26 in the entire
22:28 history that you told us,
22:30 in that history,
22:32 one thing is common
22:34 that one institution
22:36 is continuously involved in pressurizing.
22:38 Now, Mr. Usmani
22:40 has his own point of view
22:42 that the one who does not pressurize,
22:44 should not come.
22:46 That is one way of skinning a cat.
22:48 But there is more than one way of skinning a cat.
22:50 This is not a wrong way either.
22:52 If you are a judge
22:54 or a group of judges,
22:56 they understand
22:58 that there is pressure.
23:00 So, the senior
23:02 most judge of their institution,
23:04 now Mr. Usmani
23:06 is the Chief Justice,
23:08 so who did he have to say?
23:10 He was the biggest head of his institution.
23:12 So, they say that there the
23:14 bug stops with him.
23:16 Here, they are not the senior most,
23:18 it is the Chief Justice, Amir Farooq
23:20 who is the High Court Judge,
23:22 so it is very right
23:24 to write a letter
23:26 to the Chief Justice
23:28 because he is the head of the department.
23:30 So, I think...
23:32 And is the responsibility of the investigation
23:34 on the Chief Justice or on the government
23:36 of Mr. Afnan?
23:38 Look,
23:40 the government should not have
23:42 interfered in this.
23:44 It was not their job.
23:46 They should not have
23:48 tried to be a part of this.
23:50 That is why
23:52 the segregation of power,
23:54 the trichotomy of power,
23:56 has been segregated.
23:58 And let it be segregated.
24:00 Now, you go and
24:02 tell them the same thing
24:04 as Mariam Nawaz said,
24:06 it is a very easy job,
24:08 you can do it and welcome them.
24:10 So, for God's sake,
24:12 leave all this now.
24:14 Now, you are at that age,
24:16 remember that all this leadership
24:18 has been from 1984.
24:20 It has been 30 years, 40 years,
24:22 from there to here.
24:24 For God's sake, after 40 years,
24:26 at least change your thinking
24:28 and get out of these things.
24:30 Let me take a short break.
24:32 Then I will come to Mr. Afnan.
24:34 He is not accusing you,
24:36 he is saying that
24:38 the government should not
24:40 have done anything.
24:42 Where are you?
24:44 You have come as a representative.
24:46 One has accused the other,
24:48 where are you?
24:50 I will answer this after the break.
24:52 Welcome back.
24:54 Mr. Afnan, you tell us,
24:56 again,
24:58 you used to taunt them,
25:00 and you used to taunt Othi,
25:02 that a judge has given a decision
25:04 against a former Amir.
25:06 He used to press-confirm that
25:08 the judge has gone mad,
25:10 or that it was an article 6 matter,
25:12 and the role of the government
25:14 was to give evidence
25:16 that why article 6 should be applied.
25:18 It has been done the other way round.
25:20 He is giving evidence that
25:22 why article 6 should not be applied.
25:24 Today, you are being taunted,
25:26 and rightly so.
25:28 He is saying that the government
25:30 should not have done anything.
25:32 The government can be held
25:34 responsible in this way,
25:36 to some extent,
25:38 because the executive
25:40 has been accused,
25:42 so the government
25:44 had to give a response.
25:46 But we have not said
25:48 that the judge is like this,
25:50 and has accused his family,
25:52 or has revealed his past,
25:54 and has given one press-conference,
25:56 then another,
25:58 then a third.
26:00 This culture of 'Baccha Jamora'
26:02 is the biggest in the history
26:04 of this country.
26:06 I still think that
26:08 the inquiry should not be done.
26:10 So, let them be.
26:12 Why are you trying to replace them?
26:14 Don't take such a step
26:16 that they are being replaced.
26:18 Look at Mr. Talhar,
26:20 he has kept the tone low,
26:22 but he is still doing the same thing.
26:24 Babar Sattar was a green card,
26:26 and all the talks will be open.
26:28 Is this the same thing?
26:30 There is no such thing
26:32 as being a green card.
26:34 The Pakistani law does not
26:36 stop anyone,
26:38 so you will have to create
26:40 a law for it.
26:42 The thing is that
26:44 the judiciary should definitely
26:46 look at this.
26:48 I am not talking about
26:50 a particular judge,
26:52 that they should not interfere
26:54 much in the matters of the executive,
26:56 or in the case of Shaukat Aziz Siddiqui.
26:58 This is also a part of our recent history.
27:00 All this has happened in this country.
27:02 And this is a very shameful matter.
27:04 So, this has to be stopped.
27:06 And of course,
27:08 there should be no interference
27:10 in the work of judges.
27:12 There should be no interference
27:14 in the work of judges.
27:16 Because the judge has to do justice.
27:18 If there is interference,
27:20 then he will not be able to do his job.
27:22 And as far as Justice Usmani
27:24 is concerned,
27:26 the judge should issue a warrant
27:28 against the person who did this.
27:30 And he should be called and asked
27:32 how he did it.
27:34 If the matter goes to this extent,
27:36 then I do not see any other way.
27:38 Mr. Momin,
27:40 you have told us one side of the story,
27:42 I will not repeat the details.
27:44 But does Mr. Usmani agree
27:46 that you should ask for the person
27:48 who threatened you,
27:50 or who sent you a message?
27:52 My point of view
27:54 is slightly different.
27:56 I do not disagree with that.
27:58 But the person
28:00 who should execute
28:02 that matter,
28:04 that should be the Chief Justice
28:06 of the High Court.
28:08 Chief Justice.
28:10 The Chief Justice of the Mutalka Court,
28:12 be it the High Court or the Supreme Court.
28:14 Because he is the head of the department.
28:16 Because he is the head of the department.
28:18 Now, if every judge
28:20 starts doing this,
28:22 I think that would not be
28:24 the right way.
28:26 Or in other words,
28:28 it may not be the right way,
28:30 but it will not be the best way.
28:32 The best way is
28:34 that if I am a judge,
28:36 then I will first
28:38 tell my senior judge,
28:40 who heads the department,
28:42 that these wrong things
28:44 are coming to me.
28:46 They are pressurizing me.
28:48 They are pressurizing me.
28:50 So, since you are the head of our department,
28:52 you should talk to them
28:54 on our behalf and say,
28:56 "Don't interfere in our work."
28:58 We are not one of those judges
29:00 who will listen to you
29:02 or will make their decisions
29:04 freely.
29:06 Or, there can be judges
29:08 who can say, "Yes, you tell us.
29:10 We will take money for you.
29:12 We will take a briefcase.
29:14 You tell us what to do and what not to do."
29:16 But, what you said in the beginning
29:18 that the people of
29:20 justice had also
29:22 done it on someone's behalf.
29:24 But, at the end of the day,
29:26 there is one thing here.
29:28 We didn't know about the
29:30 property agreement until today.
29:32 We didn't talk about it because
29:34 it was something else.
29:36 But, the important thing
29:38 is that,
29:40 the real important thing
29:42 is that,
29:44 Pakistan's course
29:46 that was ruined
29:48 in the 1954
29:50 Judgment of Nazir-e-Zarurat
29:52 and the decision
29:54 that Chief Justice
29:56 Munir Sahib took
29:58 and the
30:00 continuous interference
30:02 that was happening after that,
30:04 whether it was in 1971
30:06 where they removed
30:08 the winner of 160 seats
30:10 and put the winner of 80 seats
30:12 under Form 47.
30:14 That was the first
30:16 Form 47 in the history.
30:18 And after that, we saw that
30:20 in 1984,
30:22 without
30:24 the political party,
30:26 they installed a man
30:28 without any merit.
30:30 Now, the whole history is like this.
30:32 There were many such incidents.
30:34 Now, Pakistan
30:36 has come to the point
30:38 where Pakistan has to
30:40 correct itself.
30:42 Because it has become so bad
30:44 that when you are very bad
30:46 and the place starts to break,
30:48 you have to correct yourself.
30:50 This is by nature a correction.
30:52 So, now Pakistan has come to such a place
30:54 where the judges,
30:56 the people,
30:58 even the government
31:00 are saying
31:02 that this is wrong.
31:04 This should be corrected.
31:06 And I think that
31:08 this is the right thing to do.
31:10 I will stop here.
31:12 I want to conclude.
31:14 Mr. Afnan, do you agree
31:16 that there is a lot of
31:18 overstepping
31:20 that is politically
31:22 suitable for us today.
31:24 But we are part of the political system.
31:26 We will be on both sides.
31:28 If there is so much overstepping,
31:30 then we will start to be the target of this.
31:32 This needs to be corrected.
31:34 Or, your answer is that
31:36 everything is going so well
31:38 and everyone is working in their own fields.
31:40 One or two incidents must have happened.
31:42 It will be sorted out.
31:44 What do you have to say on this, Mr. Afnan?
31:46 The thing is that
31:48 the course correction that he has mentioned,
31:50 when Iftikhar Chaudhary
31:52 was hanged by a police officer
31:54 on Constitution Avenue,
31:56 you must remember, when he was the Chief Justice.
31:58 9th March.
32:00 Because of which,
32:02 9th March.
32:04 Because of the course correction,
32:06 the court,
32:08 there was a movement for it
32:10 in which Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif
32:12 had made a great contribution
32:14 and the court was exonerated.
32:16 And
32:18 because of that course correction,
32:20 we thought that this issue of
32:22 need for a theory and
32:24 this issue of politicians
32:26 has been over to some extent
32:28 or has become very less.
32:30 But fortunately, you saw
32:32 that the PTI used the Constitution
32:34 against the political opponents.
32:36 And the way the judges
32:38 used to come to their galleries
32:40 and raise slogans of Imran Khan
32:42 the day Panama was declared.
32:44 This was also a wrong course correction
32:46 that was brought by the PTI
32:48 in this country.
32:50 So now,
32:52 when our government has come,
32:54 they planted a seed
32:56 and went.
32:58 Bani PTI,
33:00 the one page
33:02 and the whole game of hybrid,
33:04 has now become a tree.
33:06 Now that tree will not
33:08 die, right?
33:10 You have to take care of
33:12 that issue.
33:14 You have put the head of the goat
33:16 in the tent.
33:18 It is not so easy to remove it.
33:20 So this is not a case of a case.
33:22 They are eating the fruit of this
33:24 or the fruit of the same thing
33:26 that they had done.
33:28 The course correction will be done again,
33:30 God willing.
33:32 Because the country's system
33:34 can only work properly when
33:36 everyone is working together.
33:38 And will the course correction
33:40 be done with them or will you do it
33:42 yourself?
33:44 You are saying that they have planted
33:46 the root, now we are cutting the branch
33:48 and then we will come to the root again.
33:50 I have been saying this for a long time
33:52 that all major political powers
33:54 should come together under
33:56 one way forward.
33:58 And I think we will have to do it.
34:00 After that, the country
34:02 can come to the right track.
34:04 But if they run such
34:06 cases,
34:08 that somehow they come to power,
34:10 as you know,
34:12 as was the case with Imran Khan,
34:14 that somehow power is grabbed,
34:16 somehow the government is found,
34:18 somehow the Prime Minister, at any cost,
34:20 then the whole nation is suffering.
34:22 You are also suffering, Mausoof.
34:24 Okay, noted.
34:26 Mr. Momin, I just want to wind up.
34:28 These are the last few seconds.
34:30 Yesterday, a friend of PTI
34:32 agreed to our program that
34:34 the Charter of Democracy,
34:36 he criticized it,
34:38 but he agreed that something like
34:40 the Charter of Democracy is required
34:42 if we want to do the course correction.
34:44 Do you agree that we will have to
34:46 bring such a document on which
34:48 all the worst political opponents,
34:50 including Imran Khan and Nawaz Sharif,
34:52 will not agree? Final word.
34:54 Look, I 100% agree
34:56 that such an agreement
34:58 should be made,
35:00 but not only political parties
35:02 in the Charter of Democracy.
35:04 For example, the Charter of Democracy
35:06 that they have signed,
35:08 I think it was in 2006,
35:10 they do not even
35:12 act on
35:14 Article 22
35:16 of that.
35:18 And that is that they will not
35:20 give the document and they took it.
35:22 In fact, after 10 months of signing,
35:24 they were already in talks with the
35:26 establishment. Now here we have
35:28 to talk about
35:30 the role of the establishment
35:32 in this. Whether we agree or not,
35:34 whether someone says it or not,
35:36 it is definitely. In this,
35:38 the judiciary has also played a very bad role
35:40 because every time
35:42 they have been
35:44 wrong, they have been told
35:46 that yes, it is right,
35:48 it has been ratified. All these people
35:50 will have to do it, but it should be
35:52 larger than a simple Charter of Democracy.
35:54 You can understand this
35:56 that it should be the Charter of Constitution.
35:58 The role of those
36:00 who are written in the Constitution,
36:02 if it is the role of Wasim Badami
36:04 in the Constitution, he should not come out of it.
36:06 The role of Afnan, the role of Humayun,
36:08 the role of someone, they should not come out of their role.
36:10 Because the Constitution
36:12 is that one document
36:14 that is the way to run
36:16 the state. It is the manual
36:18 to run the state.
36:20 I give an example, if according to the Constitution,
36:22 last year,
36:24 elections were held in March and April,
36:26 both were held in that year,
36:28 and according to the need,
36:30 Article 224
36:32 2 should not have been
36:34 violated, then neither would it have been
36:36 9th May, nor would all this have happened,
36:38 nothing would have happened in this way.
36:40 Thank you very much sir.
36:42 So you are saying, yes, it is the Charter of Democracy,
36:44 a big version, in which the political
36:46 units are one class,
36:48 all the other classes are also there, and everyone is
36:50 agreeing and signing that we will not overstep.
36:52 Thank you very much sir. Thank you very much to both the guests.
36:54 We have talked about politics.
36:56 But before going, we have a few minutes
36:58 so we will talk about this with two great players of Pakistan,
37:00 that is, Basit Ali and Kamran Akmal.
37:02 We have given them trouble
37:04 because, thank God,
37:06 Pakistan has won the series against Ireland.
37:08 When the series was about to start,
37:10 I was thinking, what should I watch in this match,
37:12 because Pakistan vs Ireland is there.
37:14 But when the series was about to end,
37:16 I tried to watch the whole match.
37:18 Now Pakistan vs Ireland, let's see what happens.
37:20 And now we have won, so we are celebrating.
37:22 You see, we are doing a segment on this,
37:24 that congratulations, we have won against Ireland.
37:26 So there is Basit and Kamran.
37:28 When is the World Cup ahead?
37:30 After 20-22 days, now we are going to England,
37:32 4 matches are there.
37:34 So Basit, first you tell sir,
37:36 this is the defeat of one match of Ireland,
37:38 you will say that, okay,
37:40 it doesn't matter, it's not a big issue.
37:42 Or, you are worried that
37:44 the World Cup is held after 25 days or less,
37:46 and the team's condition is bad.
37:48 Thank you very much, Mr. Vashan,
37:50 for your contribution.
37:52 I think there should be breaking news,
37:54 that we have won the bilateral series after 2.5 years.
37:56 First thing.
37:58 As you said about Ireland,
38:00 now in C20, even in such a small team,
38:02 they have become dangerous.
38:04 Because their style of playing
38:06 is a change compared to Pakistan.
38:08 In this series, Pakistan
38:10 showed a good intent in batting,
38:12 that the batsmen changed their strike rate.
38:14 Now we have to see
38:16 that a good team, as you said,
38:18 4 matches from England,
38:20 if this intent comes,
38:22 it should be visible against them too.
38:24 So it's a good thing, if it's not visible,
38:26 then it will be very difficult to reach the Pakistan World Cup
38:28 semi-final.
38:30 Oh, Kamran Akmal sir,
38:32 Basit gave a very precise analysis.
38:34 What is your opinion,
38:36 what will you use for this series?
38:38 If Pakistan played well or not,
38:40 what was the problem?
38:42 Look, if Pakistan
38:44 had won 3-0 here,
38:46 then it would have been very good.
38:48 And confidence would have been good too.
38:50 Before the big series,
38:52 we had England.
38:54 This series will depend on
38:56 where we stand in the World Cup.
38:58 What type of cricket we will play in the World Cup.
39:00 So, winning against England
39:02 and playing with intent,
39:04 showing impact performance,
39:06 which is very important for the Pakistan team.
39:08 And the last two matches
39:10 won by the Pakistan team in Ireland,
39:12 like Basit brother is absolutely right,
39:14 that a little better in batting
39:16 was seen, the intent was seen,
39:18 the impact performance was seen,
39:20 the power hitting was seen,
39:22 the strike rate was better,
39:24 and the team did a strong comeback,
39:26 did not let it get close.
39:28 So this is a good sign for the Pakistan team.
39:30 And I hope that with England,
39:32 Dharji, later,
39:34 if cricket is good,
39:36 if we see a fight,
39:38 if we see confidence,
39:40 then we will see the benefit
39:42 of playing the big series
39:44 before the World Cup.
39:46 What will that series play?
39:48 And the question is,
39:50 do you think we should
39:52 still play with all the squads,
39:54 try some rotation,
39:56 or do you think that
39:58 it will be just 4 matches,
40:00 or should we play the final squad?
40:02 And the 2-4 players,
40:04 they should apologize to them
40:06 that they will see the matter after the World Cup.
40:08 Wasim brother,
40:10 I will just say one thing,
40:12 the rotation policy, the experiment,
40:14 the remaining Pakistanis,
40:16 they have gone to Ireland,
40:18 what else does the team need?
40:20 I think we should end it now.
40:22 Let's finish the experiment.
40:24 And now only
40:26 the main team,
40:28 the boys, should play the series
40:30 against England.
40:32 They should get the best 11,
40:34 looking at the condition,
40:36 the team, their bowling,
40:38 what should be our batting,
40:40 what should be our batting,
40:42 what should be the intent,
40:44 all these things will depend on this series.
40:46 Wasim brother,
40:48 the rotation policy is done,
40:50 Shadab was given a match
40:52 and asked to rest,
40:54 it's a small ground,
40:56 we played against Bengali and saw the rotation policy,
40:58 it was in the stand-by
41:00 before the World Cup,
41:02 Babar said it in a press conference,
41:04 and today he played that match.
41:06 So where is Harish Rao,
41:08 who will be your main bowler?
41:10 It means he is unfit.
41:12 Otherwise he should have played.
41:14 Why didn't he play?
41:16 Now he came against England,
41:18 will we see?
41:20 But Wasim brother,
41:22 I want to ask a few players,
41:24 Aamir is playing in the World Cup,
41:26 what do you think?
41:28 Aamir played well today,
41:30 so we should wait for 4 matches,
41:32 we will decide on the milk and water.
41:34 Ok.
41:36 Ok.
41:38 Ok.
41:40 Kamran brother,
41:42 I want to ask you about 2-3 players,
41:44 Azam,
41:46 Saim,
41:48 and Shadab.
41:52 It is very difficult for Saim,
41:54 and if you go with Saim,
41:56 as his form,
41:58 your combination will be very
42:00 disrupted, the team will be very
42:02 disrupted. I think Babar should
42:04 be offered,
42:06 and Niazi should be brought
42:08 at number 4, Irfan Niazi,
42:10 so I think our batting depth
42:12 will be long, like you
42:14 have raised a very valid point
42:16 in this big channel,
42:18 in this big program,
42:20 Harish Rao,
42:22 what base has he taken him to?
42:24 And his selection,
42:26 did you see
42:28 the match fitness,
42:30 when was the domestic one day cup
42:32 going on, did you see it?
42:34 He has only bowled in the net,
42:36 and has taken him with the Pakistan team.
42:38 I don't see any good thing in this policy,
42:40 I see the same thing that we have
42:42 been saying for the last 4-5 years,
42:44 his rehab is happening with the team,
42:46 so this is the biggest mistake,
42:48 and we have not grown up yet,
42:50 I mean to say, when will we
42:52 grow up, when will we become professionals,
42:54 so who is going to see these things?
42:56 And Basit Bhai,
42:58 30 seconds, you also think that Babar
43:00 and Rizwan should be open, and Saim
43:02 does not have a place in the world cup?
43:04 100%, 100%,
43:06 if you want to make Saim a bowler,
43:08 then you can have a big setback
43:10 in the world cup.
43:12 Thank you very much sir,
43:14 and Allah has wanted
43:16 to meet you and the team,
43:18 and we will be with you in 15-16 days,
43:20 with a lot of enthusiasm,
43:22 and we pray for your health and well-being,
43:24 and we will meet tomorrow, till then,