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00:00Welcome to Under the Light, the student protest movement demanding the end of the war in Gaza
00:21and the withdrawal of university investments in Israel, which started from American universities
00:26in April last year, including France, Canada, Switzerland, Ireland, Australia, and Mexico,
00:34as well as Arab countries such as Iraq and Lebanon.
00:37The protesters who set up a tent to protest inside their universities,
00:43especially with the end of the war that broke out seven months ago between Hamas and Israel in the Gaza Strip,
00:50as well as the outcry over the size of the blockade that these universities are monitoring
00:56for research and technology with Israeli internal parties.
01:01Will these protests affect the decisions related to the blockade?
02:20Welcome, Mr. Adam Joseph Ramey, Professor of Political Science at the University of New York in Abu Dhabi.
02:40Welcome.
02:42I will start with you, Mr. Adam, at the beginning, and talk today about the extension of the process of these protests
02:51in the mosques of American universities in the first place, as well as a number of European or international universities.
02:58These protests started with the demand for the ceasefire in Gaza,
03:02then the demands related to the cessation of investments in these universities in a number of Israeli companies and within Israeli territory.
03:13To what extent do you believe that this will meet the demands of these students?
03:21Well, I mean, I'm not that optimistic about this.
03:28The blockade and the cessation of investments have been going on for several years,
03:37even through the political circumstances that we have been through.
03:42But in fact, the cessation of this investment by companies is a distant matter.
03:48Companies and universities will not do that.
03:50So companies of different nationalities are dealing with Israel in one way or another.
03:56The protests do not mean that they are not useful.
03:59Yes, we saw how the protests at the graduation parties and inside the universities were spreading rapidly worldwide.
04:09They are making these issues known, not only at the level of Palestine or elsewhere,
04:18but the spread of these issues is known to the whole world.
04:22In the short term, some universities that announced last week that they could stop this investment,
04:32but so far I don't think that the University of Columbia or the University of Southern California
04:38will stop these investments soon.
04:44Let's move to Dr. Mohamed.
04:45Doctor, when we hear in general that the protests at the beginning of the matter were believed to be
04:52a demand to stop the investments of the United States or a number of parties or American companies
04:58with companies based in Israel or to stop their branches in Israel.
05:05But we discovered later that these universities themselves are investing in the field of research and technology
05:11with a number of Israeli companies, which is different from government ministries such as the Ministry of Defense.
05:16What is the nature of the investments that are required to withdraw or stop with Israel,
05:22specifically by the universities?
05:25Regarding the students' protest movement, they focus on withdrawing investments from Israeli companies,
05:30American defense companies, and any companies such as Google, for example,
05:35and Microsoft, which supports Israeli military efforts through cloud computing and artificial intelligence.
05:43So there are broad demands to withdraw investments in anything that serves Israel and the Israeli military.
05:50However, the position of the universities is very complicated.
05:54It means that universities, especially large universities, have investment books.
05:58Any investment company has its own technologies that it uses for investment.
06:03Therefore, it is keen to keep the way it invests surrounded by a lot of secrecy.
06:09Even the American media, which tried to stop the size of the nature of American investments
06:14or the investments of these universities in Israel, found that there is very little information
06:19and that it is possible to share information about small investments of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
06:23We are here to compare.
06:25We are talking about investment books worth tens of billions of dollars.
06:28Harvard University, for example, has an investment fund worth $50 billion.
06:34Texas University, which is the largest, has an investment fund worth $55 billion.
06:39These investment books do not contain accurate information about the nature of its investments in Israel
06:45and how to manage these investments, which are protected by several layers of secrecy.
06:50Of course, this is only related to Israel, but in general, the investment process.
06:53There are investments that are stored in transfer boxes.
06:56These are boxes that invest in several index boxes or several fields.
07:01Part of it goes to Israel.
07:03Even when it comes to large American companies, such as Alphabet, which is a Google company,
07:07it has several companies that follow it.
07:09Some of them invest in Israel, some of them provide services in different ways.
07:13Therefore, the protest movement calls for a symbolic way to stop these investments.
07:19However, the discussion about this issue will take years to prove that these investments have been withdrawn.
07:30Mr. Adam, Dr. Mohamed said that the issue is not related to the size of the investments.
07:36In general, the size of the investment boxes is large, but the size of the investment in Israel is about ten times larger than the size of the entire box.
07:45He says that the problem is in limiting the nature of the investments because they are not classified.
07:50If these investment boxes belonged to universities and are listed in the financial markets,
07:55they must be transparent and public, as well as announcing the nature of their investments.
08:02How do you monitor these investments?
08:09Well, I mean, look, at the end of the day, if you read the documents,
08:12and I read the documents, and I used to read about the movement of these companies that call for a stop to investment in Israel.
08:21It's not just a matter of getting away from individual projects.
08:29It's a matter of getting away from companies like Google and Apple,
08:35to really move away from supporting Israeli companies and the government through any kind of services.
08:41That's just not logical.
08:43If you want to work in any university and you really want to do what you require,
08:49divesting companies like Google and universities,
08:55you've got a long list of companies that call for a stop to investment in Israel before the protests.
09:03No.
09:05Even Harvard University, from a logistical point of view,
09:09it's very difficult for them to do that.
09:11It's difficult for them to deal with a situation like this.
09:15The purpose of the protests against Palestine is that they realize how complicated these things are.
09:21And if they take this step, it means that many companies will withdraw their support.
09:27Whether this is logical or not, whether this is true in the future, I doubt it.
09:31Dr. Mohamed, has there been a change in political decision-making at the historical level
09:41of student unions or student movements at universities,
09:45at the level of wars or other things?
09:47How important is it for students today to carry out these movements?
09:51Because they know very well how long these protests will last.
09:55This is an important question, in fact.
09:57There are two or three examples.
09:59In the 1960s, there was a protest movement at American universities
10:03against investments in South Africa, which was under the rule of the racist apartheid regime.
10:09There was also a protest movement to withdraw investments from defense companies that supported war in Vietnam.
10:15This protest movement continued for several years before its results emerged.
10:21As for the South African regime, the protests continued from 1965 to the late 1980s.
10:27It succeeded, but this success was due to international support.
10:31There was an international position, even from the Commonwealth Group,
10:35which South Africa was a member of, that put pressure on the apartheid regime in South Africa.
10:39For example, investments in defense companies that supported the war in Vietnam
10:43continued for several years.
10:45The University of Columbia, which was the first university in 1968,
10:49announced the withdrawal of investments from research centers that support defense production.
10:53The third example is a contemporary example that has been going on for several years.
10:57There is pressure at American universities to withdraw their investments from everything related to the fossil fuel sector.
11:01This is, of course, due to the issue of climate change,
11:04the issue of paying for alternative energy,
11:07and the investment in electric cars, and so on.
11:10The third example is that it took several years.
11:13There was also international consensus and local consensus on the importance of these files.
11:19In the current situation, the war began in October and may continue for a few more months.
11:25But this is an example of a war in months.
11:28In the future, there will be results in the direction of the protest movement during a few months,
11:34especially since the political process is approaching its end.
11:38This is a different opportunity.
11:41There is also an important example that some US states are issuing legislation
11:47or are beginning to issue legislation to prevent cooperation with organizations
11:51that call on Israel to cut and withdraw investments from them.
11:55The US issued this law in 2017.
11:58It came to power.
12:01Because it may be considered a hate speech against Samia and so on,
12:04and you want to stay away from any of these accusations.
12:07I will be with you, our two guests, Dr. Mohamed and Mr. Adam.
12:11After the break, we will return to Under the Light.
12:14When we talk about these American universities,
12:17or even the universities in France, like Sorbonne, Columbia, New York, Yale,
12:22and there is a lot of trust in these universities.
12:25We know very well that most of the students in these universities are not only rich families,
12:30but also families with decisions, or even members of the US Congress.
12:37What is the importance of the diversity of these students on US government and international decisions?
13:00Under the Light
13:30Under the Light
14:00Under the Light
14:05So, in addition to the fear of these demonstrations inside the US and even international universities,
14:13to influence decisions that may be taken by cities and states against these universities,
14:18if they have indeed decided to cut or withdraw investments,
14:22to also cut these universities or expropriate them,
14:25according to a new concept related to standing up against anything that goes against the reputation or even hate speech.
14:32I will go again to another research.
14:35I remind you of my guests, of course, Mr. Adam Joseph Ramey,
14:38Professor of Political Science at the University of New York in Abu Dhabi,
14:41and with us also from London, the researcher in political economy, Dr. Mohamed Saleh Lifteih.
14:45I welcome you again.
14:47I will start with you, Mr. Adam.
14:49This time, when we talk about the top ten universities in the US,
14:54let's exclude from the list of students, students of different nationalities,
15:00who came across the borders to study and return to their homelands.
15:03And here I am only talking about American students,
15:07whose parents are actually working in the US government circles,
15:12or they are decision-makers, or they are members of Congress.
15:15And it was said that there is a fear that these students will affect their relatives.
15:20Are we close to this possibility?
15:24I think it is a serious tipping point moment.
15:29In the 1960s, there was a big movement against the war in Vietnam,
15:36as the guest mentioned.
15:38And today, we have a similar movement,
15:42occupation of buildings, and also the harm of the universities,
15:46and the establishment of camps and camps.
15:50These are very similar points.
15:52And in the same way, they were able to affect their relatives.
15:58And today, we are also facing this possibility.
16:01The main test in the United States of America today
16:05is that, as mentioned, we have the graduation and the end of the academic year.
16:11Will these camps and camps continue or not?
16:14If they continue, this will lead to a rise,
16:17and this will leave a big impact on the students and their relatives.
16:22And therefore, even on their graduation process after graduation.
16:26Time will tell us that.
16:28Dr. Mohamed, the circle war between Israel and the Gaza Strip
16:33has been going on for more than seven months now, or almost seven months.
16:38Why only in April did we start hearing these voices from inside the universities?
16:45In fact, there was a progression.
16:47The protests started in the American streets, as is the case in many Western countries.
16:51But they were limited to the streets and turned to educational institutions
16:58and institutions that could be classified as elite,
17:01where political and cultural discussions usually take place.
17:05But in April, there was a break, and it was a discussion in the American Congress.
17:11I think the president of the University of Columbia attended on April 17th.
17:16The Congress agreed that the university would cancel the protests in the University of Columbia.
17:23The result was that the students moved the same day towards the protests
17:27and set up tents in the university grounds.
17:29And in a consistent way, student movements in many other universities came together
17:33and began to set up tents and protests in some buildings in these universities,
17:38in more than 50 American universities.
17:40So, the break started on April 17th.
17:43But we are talking about a few weeks until the end of the academic year soon.
17:47The form of the protest movement is likely to change again.
17:50It started in the streets and turned to the universities,
17:52then it turned into a movement of protests,
17:54a movement that is similar to the movement of the occupation of Wall Street
17:57during the global financial crisis.
18:00Now, it can go in another direction,
18:02it can be limited to the universities and turn to social media, for example.
18:06But the question is, will this discussion have a long-term impact on the university discussion in the United States?
18:15There is a problem that this discussion benefits and harms at the same time
18:20the differences between the parties of the Republican and Democratic parties.
18:23Specifically, since the beginning of the presidency of President Donald Trump.
18:26Republicans say that the universities that are close to the Democratic Party
18:31have become extremist in their progress,
18:34they have expanded the issue of sexual liberation,
18:38sex change, the issue of the culture of discrimination,
18:41and the denial of American history, and so on.
18:43Democrats say that Republicans have become more conservative,
18:47they refuse a lot of things, all these things.
18:50The current discussion highlights again the competition between the parties.
18:54That is why Congress intervened.
18:56That is why Congress pressured the presidents of the universities
18:59to use the Gaza war,
19:02to support the previous agenda, the differences between the parties.
19:06Let's move on to Mr. Adam.
19:08Mr. Adam, who is internationally known,
19:11not just a year or two ago,
19:13for decades,
19:15that the United States of America is a democratic country,
19:18and allows protests,
19:20and allows giving or starting opinions.
19:22And so far, what we see from the students' side are peaceful protests.
19:26But thanks to these protests,
19:28there is a kind of violence.
19:32And we have not seen any kind of resistance by the protesters.
19:38These are students,
19:40and they have a high culture,
19:42and they were raised in a way that respects the law.
19:46And so we do not find any passion in the nature of the protests
19:50and the protests by these students.
19:52They want to reach their message at the end of the day.
19:55I will not talk about the lack of these protests and others.
19:58I am now talking about the nature of the global view
20:01of the democracy of the United States of America.
20:04If you do not want the United States of America, as a government,
20:07to listen to these demands,
20:09then why do you oppose the establishment of this kind of protests,
20:13which is a democratic phenomenon?
20:17Yeah, I mean, look, you're right.
20:21Most of these protests are peaceful.
20:25And there was a situation in the case of Columbia University
20:29where students entered the university and caused some harm.
20:33But most of the protests are peaceful.
20:36The situation is complicated.
20:38The United States of America, according to its constitution,
20:41gives the right to freedom of expression,
20:45and at the same time the students have the right
20:48to say what they want to say.
20:51But the biggest problem here is that this problem
20:55points to the division of generations.
20:58The 18 to 22-year-old youth are university students.
21:05They have a different position towards this conflict
21:08between Israel and Gaza.
21:11The nature of the economy and the environment,
21:14especially in these institutions,
21:16compared to the positions of their parents and grandparents.
21:20This division has become apparent today
21:23through the protests of these students,
21:26where the older generation,
21:28which runs the universities and the police,
21:31this generation stops them.
21:33And you're right.
21:35The whole world is watching them.
21:37The heads of universities today are afraid of this.
21:41They see how the police respond strongly
21:44to these peaceful protests.
21:46This doesn't send a good message
21:48to other countries,
21:50especially countries that don't live in democracy.
21:54Dr. Mohamed, perhaps Mr. Adam will agree with me on this.
21:58Most Americans enjoy a local culture.
22:03And if I asked them about what happens in the Middle East
22:06they wouldn't know where it is.
22:08They'd think it's the United States.
22:10I'm not talking about historical and geographical ignorance.
22:13Their interest is more in the internal affairs.
22:16Do you think that this educated class of students
22:19will ignore their parents and neighbors
22:22who worked and worked hard for a living
22:25and so they ignore what happens outside the United States
22:29and what is the reality of the Middle East
22:32and how will this affect them as electors in the next elections?
22:38In fact, unfortunately, it will.
22:40This is due to the size of the American media
22:45that pushes the debate in another direction.
22:48What happens in American universities
22:50and the debate within American universities
22:52is a youth debate that lacks American public opinion.
22:55And what happens there
22:57is dismantled by American media.
23:00The American media process
23:02and the protest movement and the police's dealings with it
23:05have transformed the debate
23:08from being about freedom of expression
23:11to a debate in detail
23:13about the size of the movement
23:16that violated the laws in some details
23:19such as the transition from protest to siege
23:22from siege in the squares to siege inside buildings
23:25and what was the real damage to these buildings
23:28such as the arrest of some people
23:31who committed violations and then released them.
23:34The debate has been transformed
23:36into the details of the minute details
23:38that the debate loses with it.
23:40It loses with it the protest movement
23:42and its ability to influence public opinion.
23:45Public opinion is naturally affected
23:47by icons and simple images
23:49that leave an imprint on the memory.
23:52But when the debate is transformed
23:54into the details of the minute details
23:56it loses the interest of the public.
23:58Especially when we talk about the issue
24:00that usually doesn't attract the attention
24:02of the American media.
24:04What happens in the Middle East
24:06what happens between the Palestinians
24:08and the Israelis.
24:10What is the Gaza Strip
24:12and its relationship with the Palestinian Authority.
24:14All these complicated details
24:16are lost in the crowd.
24:18Especially in the United States
24:20the investigation that works on public opinion
24:22is the case of the presidential elections
24:24that took place 5 months ago.
24:26Therefore, the possibility of leading
24:28the current event in the American society
24:30to a wide change is actually weak.
24:32I thank you for your time
24:34dear guests
24:36and your analysis.
24:38Dr. Mohamed Saleh Al-Ftaih
24:40is a researcher in the political economy
24:42he was with us from London
24:44and also Mr. Adam Josef Rani
24:46a professor of political science
24:48at the University of New York in Abu Dhabi.
24:50With this our viewers
24:52we have come to an end.
24:54This week we talked about
24:56the expansion of the gatherings
24:58in the universities.
25:00Starting from the big American universities
25:02and extending to many
25:04European universities
25:06and also in the Arab region
25:08to demand the withdrawal of the investments
25:10of these universities in Israel.
25:12Thank you for watching.
25:22Music
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