• 6 months ago
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(Current Affairs)

Host:
- Maria Memon

Guests:
- Senator Hamid Khan PTI
- Raja Mohsin Ijaz (Reporter ARY News)
- Saqib Bashir (Journalist)

"Yeh judicial package lakar adliya par dabao barhana chahte hain," Hamid Khan

"Agar Aesa Hogaya Tu PTI Kay Baghair...", ARY News Reporter

Complete details of constitutional amendment for SC judges’ appointment


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Transcript
00:00 Assalam-o-Alaikum, I am Maryam Aiman, you are watching Aki Top Stories.
00:15 The government has given an order for judicial reforms.
00:17 The Parliamentary Committee has been formed on the basis of the judges' statements.
00:20 We will talk about this in the first semester of the program.
00:22 We will also discuss whether the path to political dialogue has been completely closed.
00:27 We can see that Bani PTI is slowly increasing its pressure on the institutions.
00:33 We will also discuss this in the program.
00:34 In the end, government agencies were already present to prevent cybercrime.
00:38 But a new body has been formed.
00:41 We will talk about this in the last part of the program.
00:43 But let's start with the judges' statement.
00:46 The government wants a judicial reform.
00:48 They have now made their intention very clear.
00:52 The Parliamentary Committee has also been formed on this issue.
00:55 Let me quickly tell you about the status of the Parliamentary Committee.
00:59 A Parliamentary Committee has been formed after a consultation with the opposition parties in the Judicial Assembly and Senate.
01:06 The committee consists of Khwaja Asif Sahib from Noon League and Anusha Rehman.
01:11 People's Party consists of Farooq-H Naik and Shazia Mari.
01:16 PTI consists of Hamid Khan and Mohsin Aziz.
01:22 The National Assembly will also have the support of Sunni Taat Council's Chief of Staff Lateef Khosa and Ali Muhammad Khan.
01:30 The Parliamentary Committee will approve the judges' statement and will also review the Judicial Commission's recommendations.
01:38 Before that, let me tell you that there is another rumor in the pipeline.
01:44 The rumor is that the Chief Justice of Pakistan's term of office should be extended to 68 years.
01:55 When Azam Nazeer Tariq Sahib was asked this question yesterday, he said that this task has not been given to him yet.
02:01 But if it is given, he will not refuse it.
02:05 What did the Minister of Justice say?
02:07 The Judicial package is that the Chief Justice's term of office will be extended to 3 years or the retirement of the Supreme Court judges will be extended to 68 years.
02:15 I will not do it because I have not been given this task as a law minister yet.
02:22 I will not refute it because if this proposal comes from any corner tomorrow, from any parliamentary party or from any reference, then they will have the right.
02:35 Before this, Irfan Qadir Sahib was in our show last week. He was not officially appointed as an advisor.
02:44 But when he was asked a question, is the judicial package coming, although he was not an office holder at that time, but he predicted that a judicial package would come.
02:54 The constitutional package on this is on the card.
02:57 And I am saying this from my experience, I think that the package is needed in the coming time so that there is an equilibrium in Pakistan between the institutions.
03:07 And in democracies, it is not like one institution starts fighting with another.
03:10 So I think this package is coming.
03:13 Hamid Khan Sahib is present in the first part of the program with us. He is a senior leader of Pakistan Tariq Insaaf. He is also a senator.
03:19 Thank you very much, Hamid Khan Sahib, for joining us.
03:21 Sir, the notification of the parliamentary committee has come out. Now, it is time to give the meeting.
03:27 But if we talk about it in principle, with reference to the statement of the judges, tell us that the current government thinking,
03:34 is it necessary at this time, immediately? If we talk about the timing, then the timing is interesting.
03:42 And at the same time, it is being said that maybe some issues of Tausi should also be looked at in the duration.
03:47 So far as the government judicial package is concerned, what is the first opinion on its arrival?
03:54 Is this the time, is this the opportunity, is it necessary?
03:58 I think it is not necessary and the time is putting us in doubt.
04:06 Because what is the hurry, what is the emergency in which a judicial package is needed?
04:13 It means that it seems that the pressure on the judiciary is already there.
04:18 As you have seen, the judges of the Islamabad High Court said about 70 percent.
04:25 And then, as the rest of the High Court said in response, how is the negotiation going on?
04:31 The reason for giving judicial package to all these backgrounds is that they want to increase this pressure on the judiciary.
04:39 And the intention is not good. On one hand, they are trying to give greed that they will allow you.
04:46 And on the other hand, to increase the pressure, they are trying to make more and more jokes in the way of appointment.
04:54 Therefore, if the package comes in front, then we can comment in the correct sense.
04:58 But the effects that are visible, the instigators, it seems that there is no good intention.
05:06 So, is the problem of intention or the problem is essentially the principle matter that the case of the judge's appointment should be further democratized.
05:14 And further consultation process should be extended in it.
05:18 Is it a matter of intention or the principle agreement?
05:24 I have talked about intention because the package has not come in front yet.
05:28 Therefore, when the package comes in front, then we will see what is specific.
05:33 There are some things in which we also understand that there is a need for change or improvement.
05:39 And in fact, many of our suggestions, at the time when I was a member of the Pakistan Bar Council,
05:46 at that time, we approved the Judiciary Commission and that was my drafted resolution.
05:54 They later changed it to two parts. That is a part of history.
06:00 I just say that there is a scope for improvement.
06:04 Because the current method of High Court Judges in Article 165A requires a lot of improvement.
06:13 But all the cases that are visible so far, the conditions that are in front of us,
06:22 we have a doubt that when they were going to make a rule, there was a meeting of the Judiciary Commission yesterday.
06:31 And it is very important to frame the rules because the rules have to be made according to the constitution.
06:37 So there was a need to make a transparent method.
06:41 You have stopped everything and the law minister says that you should stop it.
06:45 We are sending a package.
06:47 Let the rules be made, let transparency come in the form of an appointment, in the form of a correction.
06:55 By stopping it, they are opening up a new way.
06:59 When I see all these cases, I have a doubt that who is being pressured more on the court.
07:06 They are trying to take over the court more.
07:10 So Mr. Hamid, what will be your principal position in the meeting that will be held when this committee is formed?
07:15 Will you be able to refute the references of this package?
07:19 Will you give your recommendations in this?
07:22 Will you give your suggestions on how to improve the package?
07:31 Or do you want to stall it?
07:36 There is no need for a package at this time.
07:38 We reject the idea of changing the age of the judge.
07:45 How to give an extension to the age of the judge.
07:49 How to give a useless year to the chief justice.
07:53 So that he can give a different sentence to the other judge.
07:59 This is not our history.
08:09 It is a big debate.
08:11 Whenever an attempt has been made, the results are bad.
08:14 In 1970 and 1970, when the fifth and sixth amendments came, the condition of the judiciary was bad.
08:22 There was a lot of division between the two sides.
08:30 The results were very bad.
08:33 But Mr. Bhutto was not harmed in the form of a hanged man.
08:41 It annoyed the judges so much that all the appeals against him were cancelled.
08:46 In 2002, Musharraf tried to give a three-year extension to Sheikh Riaz.
08:56 But the entire Mukla movement followed.
08:59 In the end, he had to stay in the 70th amendment.
09:02 I want to make it clear that Mukla should be given an extension in any form.
09:10 Whether it is a term of office or an age of retirement, we will not accept it.
09:17 There is no excuse for this.
09:19 They want to create a conflict between the judges.
09:24 They want to give an extension to the judges of their choice.
09:27 They want to give a punishment to the other judges.
09:30 If you appoint a term, the next judge will not have a chance.
09:39 The result will be a severe division in the judiciary.
09:43 I am saying this because I do not see a good intention in this.
09:50 The legal path is also very vague.
09:55 Will there be a legal amendment?
09:58 Will it have to be done?
10:00 Will it have to be done through a legal amendment?
10:04 Or can the government bring an ordinance?
10:06 No, that cannot be done.
10:09 It can be done through a legal amendment.
10:12 There is no other way.
10:14 It can be passed with a two-thirds majority in every house.
10:19 But there is a PTI opinion that the 8th February elections were so big.
10:28 The national assembly and the Punjab assembly are not representative assemblies.
10:38 They should not be allowed to make a common law.
10:42 They should be allowed to change the constitution.
10:45 Because there are people sitting in the middle who were defeated by the losing party.
10:56 This is a big question.
10:58 You cannot touch such assemblies.
11:01 In which there are people who have lost the elections.
11:07 So, Hamid, this means that there will be no legislation?
11:13 Common legislation will be done.
11:16 The need for it will be done.
11:19 But changing the constitution is a big question mark in such assemblies.
11:32 Such assemblies should not be touched with the constitution.
11:38 Let's move a little further.
11:39 There are legal challenges in the judicial system.
11:41 The party has its own signature and its own party's signature.
11:51 There are legal challenges in that too.
11:53 How far has the matter reached?
11:55 An inter-party election has also taken place.
11:57 The PTI bat will be filed on Monday.
12:03 Do you think the bat will be back?
12:06 This matter is pending in the review.
12:11 We have not seen any news yet.
12:13 It is a pity that the Supreme Court has no cooperation with the PTI.
12:21 You can guess from this that two very important cases
12:25 that I have petitioned on behalf of the lawyer, Imam Khan,
12:30 one for the judicial inquiry of the 9th of May incidents
12:36 and one for the change of the election results on 8th February,
12:42 both these petitions are pending.
12:44 One is due to be filed on 25th May, it is almost a year.
12:49 The second has been two months.
12:52 It is beyond our understanding that such important petitions
12:56 which are depending on the legitimacy of the government of Pakistan,
13:07 why the Chief Justice is not fixing them?
13:11 Why the Judges Committee, which has to fix the petitions of Article 184,
13:21 is not doing it?
13:23 This is a big problem for us.
13:25 We are facing many doubts.
13:30 It is a question of legitimacy of the 8th February elections.
13:35 The case should be fixed as soon as possible.
13:39 But the case of the specific petitions has been fixed on Monday.
13:43 Yes, on 8th.
13:45 So how much hope do you have in that?
13:48 Our bench is relatively better.
13:55 We hope that a decision is made in this.
14:00 Okay, legally, you are not so hopeful about the ballot.
14:05 I thought you were a little hopeful about the specific petitions.
14:09 The political engagement, the talk of moving forward,
14:14 we are seeing some clear signs in that.
14:19 You meet Imran Khan, you are usually a part of this process.
14:24 So, is there any progress in the political engagement with the different parties and stakeholders?
14:32 We are always ready to talk to those parties who have not stolen the election.
14:39 We have a meeting with the leaders of Jamaat-e-Salami in Mansura.
14:49 We have told them that we will work together for the protection of the constitution.
14:58 And in the future, we will work together in the functions and seminars.
15:02 We have already on-boarded other parties, like Ajay Zahid's party and Raksha Menon's party.
15:12 We are also talking to JUIF because they have not stolen our seats.
15:20 We are not negotiating with just three parties because they have stolen our mandate.
15:26 We have also talked to PMLN, People's Party and MQM.
15:32 We are always ready to talk to the other parties.
15:34 But the problem is that you are ready to talk to Muqtadara, but not to the political stakeholders.
15:40 Is this the difference between the two?
15:42 No, it is not like that.
15:45 We just don't want to talk to those who have stolen our mandate.
15:50 But you want to talk to those who are being accused of stealing our mandate.
15:58 No, I don't think this is the right thing to do.
16:02 We want to talk to the government that is not a government.
16:12 What will be the way forward?
16:23 You don't want to talk to the parties that have stolen your mandate.
16:26 Muqtadara is on the fringes.
16:31 Will the issues remain in limbo?
16:36 Until the elections are not properly audited, it is not possible to talk about this.
16:55 Because in our opinion, they have not even been elected.
16:59 The Prime Minister has lost the elections in his circle in Lahore.
17:07 Similarly, the PM of Punjab has also lost the elections.
17:15 Nawaz Sharif is losing a lot of votes.
17:20 How can you give such people power that they have not even been elected?
17:28 Thank you very much.
17:29 Senator Hamid Khan was with us.
17:31 He was talking about bringing a judicial package.
17:33 He was talking about the position of Tehreek-e-Insaf.
17:37 He said that the judicial package is not needed at the moment.
17:41 The government is bringing this package with the intention of increasing pressure on the court.
17:46 To create a division in the court, a special method is being used to give some explanation.
17:53 As a result, the succession of Chief Justices can be changed.
18:00 The government has made this committee.
18:04 If there is any kind of expansion in the tenure of Chief Justice, then Tehreek-e-Insaf will oppose it.
18:10 When we come back, we will talk about the court report.
18:13 We will talk about the court report.
18:20 We will talk about the court report.
18:24 Welcome back.
18:28 Before the program, Hamid Khan was with us.
18:31 The government is talking about bringing a judicial package.
18:33 The committee has been made.
18:35 Tehreek-e-Insaf has said that the judicial package is not needed at the moment.
18:40 If there is any kind of expansion in the tenure of Chief Justice, then Tehreek-e-Insaf will oppose it.
18:50 As per Hamid Khan's position.
18:53 The government is also asking about the timing of the judicial package.
18:58 We have with us Saqib Bashir, senior journalist, and Raja Mohsin Rijaz.
19:03 We will talk about the court case and what is happening behind the doors.
19:11 Thank you.
19:12 Let us start with you, Saqib.
19:13 The judicial package was a huge issue.
19:16 The Law Minister has confirmed it.
19:19 Is it ready?
19:21 According to your information, the consultation will be fine-tuned.
19:28 The government has agreed on some points.
19:33 The government is talking about extending the tenure and reforms.
19:37 The committee has confirmed it.
19:43 The judges did not ask for any compensation.
19:53 They asked for a period of two weeks or 15 days.
20:01 Although it is not possible.
20:05 There are two ways of doing it.
20:10 The parliamentary committee had a problem.
20:16 The committee was not effective.
20:24 The government wants to merge the committee.
20:31 The committee should be merged.
20:39 The committee will be divided.
20:46 The age is a simple question.
20:55 If it is 65, then it should be 68.
20:58 If it is a reform package, then what will be the result?
21:04 The age is very specific.
21:09 If you want to hide a person's age, then it is very difficult.
21:16 You can't give everyone a benefit.
21:24 It is not logical.
21:26 The government should not go this way.
21:29 If they go, then there will be issues.
21:34 The people's party will support it.
21:39 The Muslim League is going on.
21:44 There are two major issues.
21:51 The High Court judge's ruling was with the Rules Committee.
21:57 The Rules Committee had a problem.
22:02 The Chief Justice had been with the Rules Committee.
22:09 The committee was called after a long time.
22:14 People came and sat.
22:17 It would have been better if the rules were seen.
22:20 It is a future plan.
22:22 The government should see how it is.
22:27 There are many issues.
22:30 There are many problems.
22:33 The Supreme Court will decide on the special sessions.
22:39 The Senate is incomplete.
22:41 The KP assembly is not represented.
22:45 The reform package is a wider consensus.
22:49 Is it a wish list?
22:54 It is difficult.
22:56 The problem is that the current government...
23:02 ...and the Chief Justice...
23:05 ...are in a relationship with the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
23:12 Without their consent...
23:15 ...it is difficult to amend the constitution.
23:21 If there is a doubt that this is a person-specific issue...
23:27 ...then look at the recent elections.
23:30 The election symbol, the level playing field...
23:35 ...and the decisions on Pakistan's justice system.
23:40 If there is a person-specific amendment...
23:48 ...then there are many questions on the justice system.
23:54 The 139th number in the index is an old issue.
24:00 If you look at what has happened in the last two years...
24:11 ...the attacks on the justice system...
24:18 ...started two years ago.
24:21 It was very violent.
24:25 The elections case was in the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
24:30 The judges were attacked.
24:34 The hearing of the Supreme Court of Pakistan...
24:38 ...was very important.
24:40 We have heard a lot about the judges.
24:44 There were some references and some proceedings.
24:47 Some were just statements.
24:49 Some of the judges are writing letters.
24:52 Some are in the Justice Inspectorate.
24:55 Justice Atar Minnala said that...
24:58 ...when a judge takes a stand, there is a reference.
25:02 The Chief Justice said that...
25:05 ...judges are the ones who listen to the references.
25:09 But everything is interconnected.
25:12 If you connect dots, the system will start.
25:15 When the constitution was first amended...
25:18 ...and the elections were not held within 90 days...
25:22 ...the system starts from there.
25:24 If you take that whole issue...
25:27 ...and why the elections were not held in 90 days...
25:30 ...and the things that were brought up outside the Supreme Court...
25:36 ...and the references were made...
25:38 ...and more allegations were made...
25:40 ...and if all this ends with a constitutional amendment...
25:46 ...I was listening to the Minister of Justice...
25:49 ...and he said that he will not support...
25:52 ...any of the extensions or other things.
25:56 The amendment was made in the government's meeting yesterday.
26:01 The extension and other things have been going on for a long time.
26:07 But nothing like this will be right for the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
26:13 We have seen in the case of the six judges...
26:17 ...that if you listen to the remarks of Justice Atar Minnalla...
26:21 ...in the first and second hearings...
26:24 ...you will hear the Supreme Court of Pakistan's sitting judge.
26:31 We have seen the campaigns against Justice Atar Minnalla on social media.
26:36 But there are two different things.
26:38 One is the intention of the government.
26:40 The decision to make a wider consensus in the case of the judges' statements...
26:45 ...is problematic.
26:47 There are two separate things, to improve or change this process.
26:51 Is there a need for improvement of this process?
26:55 Is it just a matter of timing or intention?
26:58 Or is it a matter of method?
27:00 Or is it a matter of secrecy?
27:02 Because when the practice and procedure bill was brought up...
27:05 ...everyone agreed that it should be done.
27:07 But there were objections to the way it was being done.
27:10 Is this also a similar matter?
27:12 Absolutely.
27:13 One thing is certain.
27:15 When the PTI is saying publicly...
27:17 ...and they have agreed yesterday, they were saying it before...
27:20 ...and now they have said it.
27:21 Now they will say it in the committee.
27:23 They will make noise in the opposition.
27:25 Timing is very important.
27:26 No one stops the reforms from being stopped.
27:29 Then this committee was formed.
27:31 I was seeing that it was notified on 10th, 11th March.
27:34 The representatives of the Bar, Azam and others were there.
27:38 Now the new parliamentary committee was looking at all these things.
27:44 Timing is important because in the recent past there have been events.
27:49 Some cases have been decided.
27:51 Then all those people connect.
27:53 Then how did the two-thirds majority come?
27:55 There are many such questions.
27:57 Then they keep connecting.
27:59 I think that if the Chief Justice is taken consent...
28:04 ...then what will they say?
28:06 Because there has been a debate going on for a long time.
28:09 There has been no objection till now.
28:11 Before that, if anything is said publicly in their favour...
28:16 ...then they clarify it in remarks, observations.
28:19 Or a press release comes from the registrar.
28:23 Nothing has come from the Supreme Court on this issue yet.
28:27 That is why there is more confusion.
28:29 That is why all these things have been formed.
28:32 So you think that if clarity comes from there that this is not acceptable...
28:37 ...then the debate will end here.
28:39 Until clarity comes, this debate will continue.
28:42 This debate will be held everywhere.
28:44 Like the case of the six judges' letter.
28:47 The hearings that are taking place there.
28:49 A division is being seen there.
28:51 A bench division is being seen.
28:53 There are a lot of influences in the lower courts of that division.
28:56 I tried to check what influence the judges of the district judiciary are having.
29:01 Are they having negative effects?
29:03 Even at such a high level, if that matter is being confused...
29:09 ...if a defensive stance is being taken...
29:12 ...or the influence of the division in the bench increases on them too.
29:15 When they face pressure and such interference...
29:20 ...they see their elders.
29:22 If they are not able to tolerate the elders, then the situation is already like this.
29:25 So basically you are saying...
29:27 I think when all these things are linked...
29:30 ...the case of the six judges should be settled once and for all.
29:35 And with consensus.
29:38 It should not be that we see that a judgment is coming from two or three or four judges.
29:42 That will also be a wrong impression.
29:44 But there is another interesting point in this whole aspect, Mohsin sir.
29:47 There are elections of these Mukla bodies next year.
29:51 So the politics of the time will also be hot with this.
29:54 Let us see how this plays out in this whole matter.
30:02 Do you think that Mukla's internal politics will also be affected in this?
30:08 This is a very sensitive issue.
30:11 We have seen that a particular political party of Mukla...
30:17 ...we can see their bars too.
30:20 We can see their position on various issues.
30:25 I remember that there was a campaign against the journalists.
30:28 In fact, there was a campaign against Mr. Babasaheb Sattar on such a large scale...
30:31 ...that he did not get any press release.
30:33 The problem is that we have seen that...
30:36 ...as I was saying, this is a very sensitive issue.
30:39 The legitimacy issue of the present assembly is a very serious issue.
30:43 Elections have never come in such a large number in courts.
30:46 There is such a big respect and so many evidences.
30:49 In Pakistan, everyone used to say that they are not losing the elections.
30:54 Opponents always used to make such allegations.
30:57 But this time the situation is different.
31:00 If there are 245 polling stations in a circle, then the accused has 245 forms.
31:07 If someone has made a form 45 at home, then he knows the consequences of it.
31:13 And a person who is already feeling so bad, will not present a wrong form 45 in court or tribunal.
31:20 This is the legitimacy issue.
31:22 Secondly, the case of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, the special seats of the Sunni Council of the Supreme Court of Pakistan...
31:30 ...and the benefits of the government, as you know, are of every government.
31:35 In such a case, the Supreme Court of Pakistan will have a case related to a political party...
31:39 ...which will have a direct effect on the judicial system.
31:41 Let's say, if the decision of this case comes in favour of the PTI, and the special seats are given to it...
31:46 ...then the judicial system of Pakistan will be impossible without Tehreek-e-Insaf.
31:50 And if the Supreme Court decides against the special seats, then it is a very sensitive issue.
31:59 You see, the PTI, already Hamid Khan has said that the legitimacy of the current parliament is a very serious issue.
32:08 There are a lot of questions on it.
32:11 And if it makes such a judicial amendment, which will have a great impact on the current court system...
32:18 So, it is a difficult position for the PTI.
32:21 It is a difficult position and a lot of questions will arise.
32:24 Thank you very much, Raja Mohsin Nijaz and Saqib Rashid for your time.
32:28 We will talk about the BCO law enforcement agencies.
32:34 But why is the government making a completely different body to deal with cyber crimes?
32:41 The government is going to do that.
32:43 The notification has come in front.
32:44 We will talk about it in the break.
32:45 Welcome back.
32:51 The powers that the FIA had regarding cyber crimes were not enough.
32:56 That is why the government has announced the establishment of a new agency in place of the FIA.
33:03 The notification has been issued.
33:05 And what is that agency?
33:06 According to the notification issued by the government, a new agency has been established under the name of the National Cyber Crime Investigation Agency to stop cyber crimes.
33:15 The NCCIA has been established under the section 29 of the PICA Act.
33:20 The government will establish the NCCIA's DG for two years.
33:25 The DG NCCIA will use the powers of the IG under the Police Order 2002.
33:30 And the Ministry of Internal Affairs will handle the NCCIA's matters.
33:35 All the authorities will be transferred from the FIA to the NCCIA through cases, inquiries and investigations.
33:42 All the crimes related to cyber crimes will be sent to the National Cyber Crime Investigation Agency.
33:49 The NCCIA will handle all the cases, inquiries and prosecutions related to cyber crimes.
33:55 The NCCIA will have its own police stations.
33:57 The officers will be trained in cyber crimes.
34:00 The NCCIA will handle all the cases related to social media and mobile apps across the country.
34:05 The problem is that all the agencies that you establish have laws.
34:09 Pakistan is probably one of the most over-legalized countries in the world where there are a lot of laws.
34:14 But there is no implementation.
34:16 You have created a new wing to control cyber crimes.
34:20 But there are still a lot of questions about the implementation of the laws and their capacity.
34:27 And the biggest intent of this is to increase political victimization and censorship.
34:33 It was not established to maintain the atmosphere of pressure.
34:36 There are a lot of questions related to this.
34:38 And the establishment of this is being seen by the digital right activists and social activists in the society.
34:44 to watch.
34:45 Our time is up, don't forget to give your feedback.
34:47 Take care, bye.

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