The Senate Foreign Relations Committee held a hearing on Thursday on countering transnational criminal networks.
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Committee on Western Hemisphere Transnational Crime, Civilian Security, Democracy, Human Rights, and Global Women's Issues
00:06 will come to order. It's a pleasure to welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses.
00:11 Today's hearing focuses on the U.S. strategy to counter
00:15 transnational criminal networks and corruption in the Western Hemisphere.
00:18 As always, I want to thank Ranking Member Senator Rubio and his team for their excellent partnership and for their help framing up this hearing.
00:27 The work that we've done on the region together is something I'm very proud of.
00:31 The U.S. and our 34 neighbors in the region in this hemisphere share deep ties,
00:36 close history, family connections.
00:38 Crime and corruption pose a growing and present threat to our friends across the hemisphere and to the safety and security of
00:46 Americans right here at home.
00:48 Transnational criminal organizations, TCOs, use corruption,
00:53 intimidation, violence as tools to influence government officials and create a more favorable
00:58 environment for illicit activities.
01:01 We've seen time and again that this type of insidious erosion of public trust in government and
01:07 democratic institutions has led to political instability and a surge in migration flows toward America's southern border.
01:15 It also creates avenues for encroachment by foreign adversaries like the PRC and Russia that brazenly
01:22 exploit these weaknesses. In December 2021,
01:26 the White House released a U.S. strategy on countering corruption,
01:30 which establishes five pillars. First,
01:33 modernizing, coordinating, and resourcing U.S. government efforts to fight corruption. Second, curbing illicit finance. Third,
01:40 holding corrupt actors accountable. Fourth, preserving the strength of multilateral anti-corruption networks. And finally,
01:48 improving diplomatic engagement. The administration's national security strategy released in October
01:54 2022 pledges to accelerate global U.S. government efforts against TCOs and integrate law enforcement efforts with diplomatic,
02:02 financial, intelligence, and other tools in coordination with our foreign allies and partners. These are ambitious goals. Today,
02:10 we're going to talk about how we're doing, how they're being implemented, and what more we need to do together.
02:15 It's not an abstract issue.
02:17 Transparency International's 2023 corruption perceptions index
02:22 highlights citizens perceptions of public sector corruption around the world in several
02:28 Western Hemisphere countries. The scores for 10 countries in the region ranked among the bottom third of the 180 countries
02:36 included in the index. Among the worst performing countries in the region are Venezuela and Nicaragua, where corruption is entrenched in
02:45 autocratic regimes; Haiti, where violent gangs threaten to overthrow the government; and
02:50 Mexico, where the cartels have expanded their reach and influence.
02:53 U.S. assistance and engagement are critical to countering these threats to our national security.
02:59 We have an essential role to play in bolstering the stability of the region in the face of these challenges.
03:04 Every crisis faced by the region and its people deeply and directly impacts the U.S. The U.S. can't stand on the sidelines.
03:11 It's essential that we work in partnership with our neighbors to strengthen democratic institutions and the rule of law.
03:17 We owe it to those partners and allies and to our friends and family in the region and here at home to take the initiative
03:24 and bring the fight directly to pernicious actors who are creating these threats.
03:27 Now let me turn it over to Ranking Member Senator Rubio for his remarks before I introduce the panel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
03:34 Thank you for holding this hearing and and thank you all for coming in to talk about this as it continues to grow and
03:40 masticize as a problem in the region. We can take a
03:42 trip through it real quick. I mean in Colombia, they've made tremendous progress over the years. It's a
03:48 nation that lived basically through cartel wars in the 90s and
03:53 and at a time when bombings were going on and then they've had to confront all these groups.
03:58 But after that there were the successors of that group, not to mention the FARC and the ELN and all these
04:03 other criminal and terrorist organizations that have operated there for a long time. And now they face
04:09 particularly the clan del golfo, which was kind of a I guess the heir to some of the
04:14 cartels of the 90s as they continue to link up.
04:19 Colombia remains the largest producer and exporter of cocaine in the world and they've now created these lucrative markets and
04:26 that they have linked up with these Mexican cartels
04:29 with a cooperation, unfortunately, of the Venezuelan regime, which itself has been caught in
04:37 cooperating with the transport of cocaine out of Colombia.
04:41 It's part of Maduro's revenue sources for the regime. In fact, I believe
04:47 just a few days ago there was another conviction of a high-ranking official who had been a member of that cartel de los solos.
04:53 He was convicted in, I believe, in Manhattan for the work they've done. A new entity, which is
05:00 transnational now, unfortunately, is the gang Tren de Aragua. This is a vicious gang. It's established itself
05:06 initially in the prisons of Venezuela, but then became endemic in Peru,
05:10 in
05:12 Ecuador, Panama, Bolivia, Brazil. They all face these elements and now we are seeing evidence that they have made it into the United States.
05:18 Every single day we're seeing reports from Chicago, from South Florida, from New York, that these gang members are here.
05:24 And this is a particularly vicious gang that
05:26 specialized in extortion and kidnapping and rape and murder for hire and everything else you can imagine. And so
05:34 another significant problem that we face.
05:36 Moving on, I mean, I think it's important to note that Ecuador, which was a place we didn't normally associate with
05:42 problematic, they have become a transit point. And so what happens is these localized gangs start killing each other,
05:47 but also start attacking the state as they become
05:50 transitors, as they become sort of the middlemen between the cocaine that comes across that border from Colombia and
05:56 the Mexican cartels. And
05:59 they threaten the state. You saw very recently, it came to a point of crisis and I believe they're still operating under a state of
06:05 emergency as a result of that.
06:07 Nicaragua is an interesting
06:10 dynamic.
06:11 It's a transit country for cocaine trafficking. We know that. But in addition, and there's a strong Mexican cartel presence in Nicaragua,
06:19 but adding to that, it's become a human trafficking hub.
06:21 Particularly when they listed all their visa requirements, people know if I fly into Nicaragua from anywhere in the world, I can go there.
06:28 There won't be a visa requirement and from there I can be trafficked into the United States. So that becomes a problem.
06:33 I think it's well known the challenges we face in Mexico where
06:37 both the cartel in Sinaloa and Jalisco
06:40 honestly control
06:43 significant amount of territory.
06:45 I know it's not transnational in nature,
06:49 but I think it's important to mention what the chairman already mentioned and that is today Port-au-Prince, 80% of Port-au-Prince,
06:55 maybe more at this point, is controlled
06:57 by criminal gangs, a combination of criminal gangs.
07:00 There's not a single elected official in Haiti. There's this transitional commission that's coming together.
07:05 But there are now rumors that a couple of them who are on it may actually end up leaving the country because of how unsafe
07:11 it's become. I think it's important to note that both the
07:15 small armed forces of Haiti and their police department, despite limited resources and inability to be resupplied, have shown extraordinary courage and bravery in
07:24 confronting these gangs. That's not being reported enough, but they've got no weapons. They've got no ammunition. They've got no body armor.
07:30 They've got no way to resupply them.
07:32 And I hope we're looking at ways to do that because no matter what Kenya or other countries decide to do,
07:38 they better have somebody to link up with on the ground. They better have an airport that's open.
07:41 I know there's a prohibition right now
07:44 on exporting
07:47 weaponry and equipment to the Haitian
07:51 Army, National Army.
07:53 And I understand the history of our armies have played out in the history of Haiti,
07:57 but they have been a quite capable force over the last few weeks. And right now,
08:01 without them, I don't know if the police could have withstood some of the challenges that they have faced.
08:06 And I hope we'll reconsider that because there's countries that I believe are willing to step forward and
08:09 provide them some of the equipment they need, but are scared off by the US prohibition. So there's a lot to cover.
08:15 I'm not sure we can cover it all today.
08:16 But the bottom line is that all this becomes endemic in our national security because ultimately whatever happens in the region,
08:23 it finds itself here. It finds itself here in our banking system.
08:25 It finds itself here in our streets, both in the presence of drugs and these criminal organizations that migrate towards here.
08:31 It is part of the driver of a migratory crisis. One of the reasons people leave these countries is because they feel threatened by these
08:36 criminal groups. And
08:38 it's a growing problem.
08:40 Whereas 25 years ago, we could pinpoint one or two places where we had these. Now, they are in multiple countries.
08:46 And they are operating like a vertically, in some cases like the cocaine trafficking, a vertically integrated industry.
08:53 The Mexicans have basically, the cartels have basically vertically integrated the business. Where they were once just the traffickers over the border,
08:59 they are now basically everything but the producer of the actual cocaine. And in the case of the fentanyl,
09:04 they are the producer and of the meth. So
09:06 there's a lot to cover. And but I appreciate you coming in and talking to us about it.
09:10 And I did want to know, we did ask the DEA to be a part of this. They were not allowed to come.
09:14 I don't know if that's a jurisdictional thing because we don't have oversight.
09:17 But I think it's impossible to really focus in on any of this. And if you travel anywhere in the region,
09:22 and they hold meetings for us, there's DEA officials there because they are at the front lines of a lot of this.
09:26 I think it's pretty difficult for us to
09:28 really confront this challenge without having testimony from the DEA. And I hope that in a future hearing, they'll reconsider that
09:35 prohibition on coming before us. So, thank you.
09:39 Thank you, Senator Rubio. I now want to introduce the witnesses. And in the order I introduce you, you will then move into your opening statements.
09:47 We'll then do questions.
09:48 I'm going to defer my questions since I'm going to be here the whole time. And I'll start with Senator Rubio and Senator Shaheen.
09:54 We have a hard stop today at 1045 because we need to go to the Senate chamber so we can
09:58 attend the address given to, the joint congressional address given by Japanese head of state.
10:04 So now it's my pleasure to introduce our witnesses.
10:07 Richard Nephew. Richard is the Department of State's coordinator on global anti-corruption since July 2022.
10:14 He was a senior research scholar at Columbia University's Center on Global Energy Policy. Prior to that,
10:19 he's a published author on sanctions, deterrence, and nuclear proliferation.
10:23 He was also just here for a global anti-corruption hearing before the committee last month. Mark Wells,
10:29 career Foreign Service officer with the rank of Minister Counselor and
10:34 currently serves as the principal Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Department of State's Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs.
10:40 Previously served as Deputy Assistant Secretary in Western Hemisphere Affairs covering South America and regional economic policy and
10:49 briefly covering the Caribbean. Mr. Wells also serves as the Deputy, as the DCM in Bogota, Colombia, and Lima, Peru. And finally, Chris Landberg.
10:59 Chris is a career in Foreign Service officer with the rank of Minister Counselor, currently serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Bureau of International
11:07 Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs at State. He previously served as principal Deputy Coordinator
11:13 for the Bureau of Counterterrorism, performing the duties of acting coordinator and acting US Special Envoy for the Global
11:21 Coalition to Defeat ISIS for all of 2023. He served tours at US embassies in Colombia,
11:28 Ecuador,
11:29 Argentina, and Ghana, among others. We are very glad to have you all here. And now I will turn it to you, Mr.
11:36 Neff. You can find your opening statements to five minutes, and we'll look forward to having a good dialogue.
11:39 Thank You, Mr. Chairman. Chair McCain, Ranking Member Rubio, members of the subcommittee,
11:46 thank you for holding this hearing to discuss how we are addressing transnational organized crime and corruption in the Western Hemisphere.
11:53 It's an honor to be back just a few weeks ago after I was
11:57 attending a hearing with the full Senate Foreign Relations Committee to discuss our implementation of our anti-corruption strategy.
12:03 Though my purview is global,
12:05 I recognize the unique importance that countering corruption in the Western Hemisphere has for US national security.
12:10 Corruption crowns out good investment and fair competition,
12:14 potentially forcing young people toward criminal activity as a form of livelihood.
12:18 Corruption also devastates the state's ability to deliver basic services for their citizens,
12:24 including to confront criminality and violence effectively in a way that respects the rule of law.
12:28 These factors, in turn, can drive irregular migration and human smuggling, which are again compounded by corruption and impunity.
12:35 Corruption also creates opportunities for terrorists, narco-traffickers, and other criminal enterprises to operate.
12:41 That is why the United States has made countering corruption a foundational part of our approach across the Americas,
12:48 alongside efforts to encourage new, positive economic investment, strengthen the rule of law, and support vibrant democracy.
12:54 Like citizens across the region,
12:56 we reject the false premise that people must sacrifice their rights in order to enjoy security or curb corruption.
13:03 Rather, rule of law and civil liberties can and must go hand in hand.
13:08 Through my work in recent travels,
13:10 I've observed several notable trends, which my team is working on with the Department to confront head-on. In the interest of time,
13:17 I'll mention just a few of these here and ask that my written statement be entered into the record.
13:21 First, I've seen and heard from so many anti-corruption defenders who are facing significant and increasing threats, some of which are physical.
13:28 These include individuals in and out of government who are fighting to investigate and claw out corruption,
13:33 promote accountability, and support the rule of law. In response,
13:37 one of the major lines of effort that my team and I have been focused on is how we can better support these defenders,
13:43 which includes working with interagency partners to think creatively about what resources we have available and what else we can do.
13:49 I'd be eager for any of your ideas as well as to what we might do to utilize and maximize existing support mechanisms or
13:57 identify new ones.
13:59 Second, I've heard many times from both government and non-governmental partners about the real impact and need for continual and
14:05 coordinated U.S. attention to help reinforce partner efforts and to provide accountability.
14:11 Each element of our government plays a crucial role. U.S. sanctions and visa restrictions are critical accountability tools.
14:17 Diplomatic engagement and foreign assistance are vital
14:20 complements to these actions, and each of these efforts works best when conducted in coordination with criminal law enforcement action.
14:27 Given our close ties as neighbors in the hemisphere, U.S. action plays a particularly important role in our action or
14:33 inaction, as closely watched by both bad actors and those we are trying to support.
14:38 Lastly, I continue to observe the increasing risk of strategic corruption, and I raise it regularly at home and abroad.
14:43 We governments are often prime targets for foreign authoritarian actors seeking to exert their corrupt influence in new regions.
14:50 My goal is to make committed partner and ally institutions and systems more resilient
14:55 to attempts at weaponized corruption and for the department to continue considering all options to address it.
15:00 Though most of my comments today focused on the significant, and in some cases worsening, challenges related to corruption and transnational organized crime in the hemisphere,
15:08 there are places of hope.
15:09 My most recent trip was to Guatemala, where I participated in the inaugural March 18th high-level economic dialogue.
15:16 This is our first economic dialogue in Central America, which demonstrates just how important Guatemala and its economic success is to the United States.
15:24 The dialogue also highlighted that anti-corruption is key to inclusive economic growth.
15:29 We are now working on concrete plans to take forward the ideas for collaboration discussed there, in partnership with President Arabalo's administration,
15:36 the private sector, and Guatemalan civil society.
15:38 We face many challenges in our region in confronting corruption and organized crime.
15:42 I look forward to hearing your ideas and thoughts on these challenges and what more we can do. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Rubio,
15:48 thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today, and I look forward to your questions. Thanks so much, Mr. Wells.
15:53 Chairman Cain, Ranking Member Rubio,
15:57 esteemed members of the committee,
15:59 thank you for this timely hearing to discuss how the Department of State addresses corruption and transnational organized crime in the Western Hemisphere.
16:06 Mr. Chairman, since the beginning of the Biden-Harris administration,
16:09 our approach in the Western Hemisphere has focused on making democracy deliver for the region's citizens and addressing the challenges that threaten the foundation of that democracy.
16:19 President Biden and Secretary Blinken have prioritized countering corruption globally, using all tools at our disposal.
16:26 The Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs, in collaboration with Department and interagency colleagues,
16:32 has taken concrete actions against corruption in the Americas using diplomatic engagements, sanctions, visa restrictions, law enforcement cooperation,
16:42 justice sector programming, capacity building for journalists and civil society organizations, and other mechanisms to promote accountability and dissuade future acts of corruption and undemocratic actions in our hemisphere.
16:56 Since 2023, we have designated over 40 former and current foreign officials in the Western Hemisphere and their family members as ineligible for entry into the United States
17:07 per Section 7031(c) of the Department of State Foreign Operations and Related Programs Appropriations Act.
17:13 We reiterate that merits of the case and not political affiliation direct our implementation of Section 7031(c) or any of our other visa restriction or sanctions authorities.
17:26 To give some examples from the region, the United States imposed visa restrictions against individuals in Honduras, Guatemala, and Venezuela for engagement in corruption under INA 212(a)(3)(c).
17:37 In Nicaragua alone, we have taken steps to impose visa restrictions under several authorities on more than 1,200 individuals and to sanction 51 individuals and 11 entities for undermining rule of law through corrupt acts and obstructing democratic processes.
17:54 Across Latin America and the Caribbean, transnational criminal activity has expanded to include firearms and human trafficking, irregular migration, and illegal mining.
18:03 From Mexico's Sinaloa cartel to Venezuela's Tren de Aragua, we are keenly aware that criminal groups destabilize governance throughout the region.
18:13 In Colombia, Clan del Golfo, a powerful criminal organization involved in drug trafficking, violence, and corruption, has developed a lucrative income stream from smuggling irregular migrants through the Darien Gap.
18:25 Since 2021, the United States and Mexico have held three high-level security dialogues under the Bicentennial Framework to guide binational actions in pursuit of the security, health, and development of our societies.
18:39 The Central American Regional Security Initiative and the Caribbean Basin Security Initiative build community, local, and national crime and violence prevention capacity,
18:47 as well as provide critical social, educational, and economic opportunities to youth to reduce their risk of involvement in crime and violence.
18:56 In recent months, Ecuador faced unprecedented violence and instability at the hands of gangs and other actors.
19:03 In March, the Department of State held the fourth U.S.-Ecuador high-level dialogue, where the United States expressed strong support for the Attorney General
19:11 as she prosecutes violence committed by transnational criminal organizations and investigates far-reaching corruption among the judiciary and political class.
19:21 As has been mentioned, nowhere is the threat to democracy from gangs and pervasive corruption more acute today than in Haiti.
19:28 The deployment of a multinational security support mission remains a critical part of our strategy to restore security, laying the groundwork for a democratic transition of power.
19:37 We've also leveraged both U.S. and U.N. sanctions authorities, as well as visa restrictions, to promote accountability for gang leaders and those who support them.
19:47 Chairman Kaine and Ranking Member Rubio, by fostering a culture of accountability, promoting anti-corruption measures, and bolstering security cooperation,
19:57 the Department of State remains committed to creating a safer and more resilient hemisphere.
20:02 Thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee, and I look forward to your questions.
20:06 Thank you, Mr. Lindberg.
20:09 Chairman Kaine, Ranking Member Rubio, distinguished members of this subcommittee,
20:15 thank you for the opportunity to testify today on how the Bureau for International Narcotics Affairs and Law Enforcement works in the Western Hemisphere
20:22 to build the rule of law and counter corruption, counter transnational criminal organizations, and also illicit drug trafficking.
20:28 Countering the flow of illicit drugs, especially synthetic drugs, is a top priority for this administration.
20:34 INL is employing a comprehensive counter-narcotics approach.
20:38 Through training, equipping, technical assistance, and bilateral and multilateral diplomacy,
20:43 INL builds partners' capabilities to disrupt TCO drug trafficking and other illegal activities that are a source of instability throughout the hemisphere.
20:53 Combating the fentanyl crisis is critical to our counter-narcotics effort, and our work with Mexico is an essential component.
21:00 The U.S.-Mexico Bicentennial Framework is the foundation for our mutual efforts to protect our people,
21:05 prevent transborder crime, and pursue the criminal networks.
21:08 INL provides training and equipment to Mexican justice sector and security personnel to improve border and maritime port security,
21:16 and assist in identifying and safely dismantling clandestine laboratories.
21:22 INL also supports specialized units in Central America to strengthen interdiction capacity.
21:27 For example, the INL-supported DEA vetted unit in Costa Rica dismantled the country's first fentanyl trafficking ring last November.
21:35 The threat of synthetic drugs requires a global response, which the United States leads through the Global Coalition to Address Synthetic Drug Threats,
21:43 bringing together 151 countries and 14 international organizations so far to share best practices, detect emerging threats, and promote public health interventions.
21:53 While INL has ramped up efforts to combat fentanyl, we continue to work with partners to counter cocaine trafficking as well.
22:01 INL's approach has expanded to focus not just on drug supply reduction, but also on promoting rural security, addressing corruption, and countering money laundering and other financial crimes.
22:12 INL is working throughout the region to build anti-money laundering investigative capacity to deprive TCOs of their illicit profits.
22:19 For example, last year an INL-supported anti-money laundering task force in Colombia made 24 arrests and seized 202 assets.
22:27 Also a top priority, INL works to combat endemic corruption and impunity by strengthening institutions
22:34 and the capacity of justice sector partners to identify, dismantle, and prosecute the main drivers of corruption.
22:41 INL also works with other partners such as civil society to shed light on the corruption and impunity-threatening communities.
22:48 With INL technical assistance and advocacy, Ecuador launched the Specialized Court for Corruption and Organized Crime.
22:56 In just over a year, it successfully convicted 165 individuals, including from high-profile TCOs such as Trinidad Agua and Los Choneros.
23:06 We are supporting similar opportunities in Guatemala and are committed to supporting President Arevalo's intent to make rooting out corruption a top priority.
23:14 The department is acutely focused on the violence and instability in Haiti stemming from criminal gangs.
23:21 We're working to support the launch of the Multinational Security Supporter, MSS, mission
23:26 and strengthen the Haitian National Police's ability to re-establish security conditions conducive to holding free and fair elections.
23:35 This is a critical time and we look forward to continuing to work with Congress to address this humanitarian and security crisis that is destabilizing the region.
23:43 Transnational criminal organizations and corruption in the Western Hemisphere are deeply rooted challenges and pose a serious threat to regional stability and our own national security.
23:52 Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and I look forward to your questions.
23:57 Thank you, Mr. Landberg.
23:58 We'll now begin five minute rounds of questions.
24:00 We'll go in this order, Senator Rubio, then Senators Shaheen, Murphy, Chairman Cardin.
24:05 I will follow Chairman Cardin.
24:07 Senator Rubio, I hand it to you.
24:09 Thank you.
24:09 I'm, um, Mr. Wells, you know, I'm pleased I've seen the written testimony, especially that you and Mr.
24:22 Landberg both have labeled Trinidad Agua a transnational criminal organization.
24:29 I sent a letter along with 21 other members of Congress, both House and Senate, requesting that they be labeled as such.
24:36 Do we have any update on whether that's going to happen?
24:41 Mr. Wells?
24:44 Sir, we're closely tracking Trinidad Agua and have similar concerns to you.
24:49 We understand you sent that letter.
24:51 We're working very closely on the internal process.
24:56 I, we don't want to discuss the details of our internal deliberations on sanctions or designations, but I will be working very closely with your staff to give them regular updates.
25:09 Yeah, the sanctions will be tough.
25:11 I don't know what we would sanction, but in terms of designations, obviously it opens up the ability to, in an organized fashion, at least confront, um, not, not just what they're potentially going to do in the United States if elements are continuing to come in, but what they are already doing in some of these other countries where they've been an enormous challenge.
25:26 Um, and a bunch of places, Brazil in particular, has had some horrifying instances that are tied to them.
25:31 Um, the, the situation that, uh, let me ask about another one.
25:39 Um, well, you know, one of the things I don't think gets enough attention is how long Hezbollah has had a presence in our hemisphere.
25:44 Primarily, I would say as a place that they generate revenue from, the tri-border area, the, the, that they've been operating from as a revenue source.
25:54 Although, although clearly if you're present for re- revenue purposes, I don't think it's a large, uh, there's not a big leap there to say they could at some point have the aspiration of operationalizing it, or at least having that as a, uh, an asymmetric capability that in essence they can conduct attacks against, uh, US targets, uh, in, in case of a broader conflict around the world.
26:14 But we know for a fact that they've been here making money to send back to the organization.
26:20 And one place in particular where that's been going on for a while is in Chile.
26:23 And, um, maybe this is best for you, Mr.
26:28 Lamberg, but, um, cause we've seen most of the multiple instances of these TCOs partnering with foreign terrorist organizations in our hemisphere.
26:37 Columbia's had this issue.
26:39 Paraguay's had this issue, but Chile, and in particular, Chile's had, and I think the reason why that's concerning to me is because under Boric, they've had been pretty harsh rhetoric about Israel.
26:50 Uh, they refused to accept the credentials of Israel's ambassador going back to 2022.
26:55 Uh, they've in fact, under Boric, one of the leading anti-Israel voices of Latin America, even before October 7th.
27:01 So I think there's reason to be concerned that they're not doing enough to crack down on these financial networks from the Chilean side.
27:07 Um, despite our sanctions and others, uh, identifying Hezbollah for what it is, Hezbollah, um, we've got these, we have, I believe we have sanctions on Chile based Hezbollah,
27:19 uh, run companies, but Chile has refrained from designating Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
27:25 Is it our view that they are doing enough to crack down on Hezbollah operations in the country?
27:30 And what are we doing or what are we communicating to them about what we hope they will do?
27:36 But let me start, Senator.
27:38 Thank you for the question.
27:40 Um, you know, President Boric has been a strong advocate on human rights issues around the world.
27:46 He has a rather large, um, uh, Muslim population there that, that, that does, uh, speak out, uh, with regard to, uh, issues on Israel.
27:56 Um, we have been working, uh, both behind the scenes and publicly with, uh, the Israelis and the Chileans to encourage them to find a way to cooperate.
28:06 Um, we certainly do have cooperation with Chilean law enforcement across the full spectrum.
28:11 A lot of that is in building capacity as well as, um, sharing information with regard to investigations.
28:16 That is Hezbollah as well as, um, Trinidad and Oaxaca.
28:19 We, we are very concerned about the operation of, of Hezbollah throughout the region as well as in, um, as well as in Chile.
28:27 And perhaps INL has other points.
28:30 Let me just be clear about my question.
28:31 I, I get, I don't like the rhetoric.
28:33 I don't agree with this rhetoric.
28:34 I don't agree with some of the stances he's taken on Israel, but I asked about the rhetoric in connection with, if that's how he feels about Israel.
28:41 Hezbollah is an enemy of Israel.
28:43 My question is whether that rhetoric translates to a lack of willingness to confront Hezbollah as a foreign terrorist organization and the threat it poses in the region and ultimately internationally.
28:54 So, um, really that's the, I don't like, I strongly disagree with everything he has said, and I hope that we are, um, expressing that as well.
29:03 And I don't care what his internal politics may be with regards to that.
29:07 I don't agree with his rhetoric on Israel.
29:09 But I asked the question in specific as to how, if that's how you feel about Israel, I think it would lead some to conclude that maybe Hezbollah is not a priority for them.
29:18 And my question is, are they making Hezbollah, but they haven't designated them as a terrorist organization.
29:22 Are they a willing and cooperative, uh, government when it comes to confronting Hezbollah and Hezbollah run companies in their own country?
29:31 So, uh, I, I understand.
29:37 Um, and as I said, the, you asked about the messaging that they're getting from us, you know, and we're unequivocal about our, uh, opposition to Hezbollah and I, and we are cooperating.
29:47 Uh, they do cooperate with us with on all cases of international terrorism, uh, um, probably in their law.
29:54 And I, I do not know this for a fact, but most countries don't have a foreign terrorist organization designation in their law.
30:00 Uh, but we, uh, we do work with them.
30:02 Uh, we consider them a, an important partner on all counter terrorism activities.
30:07 And, um, does he have anything else?
30:10 Well, given that it came from the counter-terrorism bureau, don't speak for them anymore, but I was very involved in all of our extensive counter Hezbollah activities worldwide.
30:20 Uh, we have a specific focus on the law enforcement side, which is looking at attacking in a coordinated law enforcement approach, their illicit proceeds from all their, um, illegal activities.
30:33 A number of, uh, countries in Latin America are part of this overall effort that we, that we have globally.
30:38 Um, I'm not specifically sure about Chile and we'll have to go back and find that out, but I know a number of countries have designated in Latin America and many countries in Latin America are working very closely with this, uh, global effort to counter Hezbollah.
30:51 Mr.
30:56 Weinberg, I'm gonna stick with you and I'm going to ask you a question.
30:58 I hope you'll be candid rather than diplomatic.
31:00 So, uh, what grade would you give Mexico in their cooperation with the United States on fentanyl interdiction?
31:08 You mean like a letter grade?
31:14 Well, Senator, I think I'd give a pretty high grade for effort.
31:24 Um, I think obviously given that this is the number one source or cause of death for Americans between 18 and roughly 50, we have a huge amount of work to do.
31:36 And none of us can sit back and say that we deserve an A grade on countering fentanyl.
31:40 However, the relationship with Mexico is key and we are working with them on every level.
31:47 We're working with them internationally through the global coalition.
31:50 We're working with them trilaterally through the Trilateral Fentanyl Commission with Canada and bilaterally.
31:56 And we're just, for example, the fact that they are on the verge of buying a billion dollars from U.S.
32:04 companies of port scanning equipment shows the commitment to trying to address both the flow of fentanyl precursors, much of which comes from the United States.
32:15 So this is a, this is a shared burden.
32:17 Um, and even like they are working internationally to, with other partners to press them for more controls of precursor chemicals.
32:26 So I think Mexico is making a strong effort, um, and we're working very closely with them.
32:31 And, but, uh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna give any of us a high grade when we have, you know, over a hundred thousand American citizens who have passed away from it.
32:40 Mr.
32:40 Bloomberg, I'm glad to hear you talk about the Mexican investment in this port technology because reports I have been hearing, although these are somewhat out of date, is that Mexico has been very slow to partner with the U.S.
32:51 to embrace the kinds of technology and scanning at ports that would help us deal with this.
32:56 But the fact that they are on the verge of this investment, that's positive news.
33:00 Um, Mr.
33:01 Neff, you'll want to drill down on, on Guatemala a little bit.
33:05 Um, we can focus on a lot of the areas in the region where things are going bad, but it's also good to focus on areas where there may be opportunities.
33:14 The historic and, and overwhelming election of President Arevalo, there was an effort, um, to, to stop that inauguration from happening.
33:24 Um, an effort led by many who had vested interest in continuing corruption.
33:29 President Arevalo's campaign really centered around anti-corruption.
33:34 Of course, his wasn't the first campaign to do that.
33:36 That was Jimmy Morales's campaign two presidents ago, and he was quite a failure in these efforts.
33:41 But it seems like we would have a lot at stake if we could help President Arevalo's, uh, express desire to be an anti-corruption fighter, um, see success.
33:53 Because not only would it be great for Guatemala, but it would be an important example in the region that you can move out of patterns of corruption into a better day.
34:03 So talk to us about the recent visit that you paid and your assessment early into the administration, obviously, of the progress of the new government's anti-corruption efforts.
34:14 Senator, thank you very much for the question.
34:17 And I couldn't agree with you more about the potential opportunity that we have there and the, I think, committed partners that we've got in the Guatemalan administration and in the anti-corruption community there.
34:27 Um, at the dialogue, the very first topic that we discussed was good governance and the importance of governance to economic development, to economic investment, uh, and to really getting the economy going, um, you know, in this context of the broader dialogue.
34:43 And that's because I think our Guatemalan partners see the same things that we see, that corruption undermines investment and undermines opportunity, undermines the ability of the population to really move forward.
34:53 We, we, um, heard a lot about their plans and their activities.
34:57 You know, for instance, they are looking now at, um, a lot of the existing contracts, uh, that were in place for infrastructure to see if there are issues, uh, with corruption and potentially actors who are getting, uh, let's say beneficial, uh, and, and deferential treatment, um, to try and, and recoup those, those investments back for the Guatemalan people.
35:15 We're also, uh, already invested with them on new prevention mechanisms, everything from transparency in their procurement and their budgeting process to supporting them with the basic investigatory kinds of activities that they would need to do as well.
35:27 So I would say two things.
35:29 First, um, we absolutely see the commitment and we are making a commitment in turn to, to support them.
35:34 Um, and second, it is early days, but we are already seeing them focus on, uh, areas that would both be a high priority for anti-corruption and I think for demonstrating that fighting corruption is beneficial for the economy.
35:46 Let me ask one other question about Guatemala and then I'm going to ask Senator Rubio if he has a second round.
35:51 I have other topics I want to address in a second round, but on the Guatemala situation, you know, it's going to be very important for anti-corruption efforts for the private sector to be bought into them.
36:01 As you point out, if you're looking at contracts in previous corruption, there are private sector elements, including some very powerful ones who have a vested interest in not necessarily supporting anti-corruption campaigns.
36:13 So in your dialogue in March, um, what was your assessment of the private sector's, you know, uh, temperature in terms of buying into the anti-corruption efforts of President Arevalo?
36:25 Senator, thank you.
36:27 Um, so the dialogue, the formal part, the morning part was focused on government to government.
36:32 The afternoon was a series of discussions with private sector actors, with the Anti-Corruption Commission.
36:37 We had a meeting with them, a very long one, as well as with indigenous groups and others, uh, you know, who otherwise have been marginalized in Guatemala.
36:44 In the private sector session, which was quite long and well attended by Guatemalan private sector actors from all sorts of different sectors, we heard consistent interest in fighting corruption because it undermines investment.
36:56 It undermines economic performance.
36:58 We heard a lot about the kinds of things they're looking from the government in terms of support, the kinds of investment they want to see in clean procurement systems and transparency and the ways in which we can support them.
37:09 And certainly in the conversations we've had since, both with Guatemalan private sector as well as American international private sector actors, we see a lot of commitment to work forward on these issues.
37:20 Now, I'm not going to sit here and say every private sector actor in Guatemala, or for that matter, the world has got the same kinds of good motives in place, but I'm quite convinced that we've got partners in the private sector and we're looking to build them up as a good model of how to fight corruption from a private sector perspective.
37:35 There's huge upside for Guatemala in an age of nearshoring and trying to bring supply chains back closer to the United States.
37:42 There's huge upside if they can battle corruption, but if they can't, they'll find that they'll miss those opportunities and other nations will have the benefit of that.
37:50 Senator Rubio.
37:51 I want to go back and talk, and you touched on it with Mexico, and I think the synthetic drugs pose a very different challenge than the drugs that required agriculture, for lack of a better term, in the case of coca and so forth.
38:08 These synthetic drugs largely are, the key is these precursor chemicals, right, the raw materials that you put together to make these synthetic drugs.
38:17 I understand the chain, the way it works, while there are multiple places that produce precursors, right now the bulk of it is coming from two provinces in China and a handful of companies.
38:28 These things can be bought online, darknet, internet, and they are then shipped in cargo containers that are mislabeled with the help of certain brokers who will bribe officials and/or help file fictitious paperwork are brought into Mexico.
38:44 These precursors are then distributed to these small-scale labs that basically manufacture the stuff, and they also need the equipment, the pill presses and so forth,
38:53 and then they sell their manufactured product to transport specialists, primarily the two that are the big ones that are in the business of doing this are the two Sinaloa and Jalisco cartels in Mexico,
39:10 who then for a premium fee are the ones who move it across the border and into the hands of distribution networks inside of the United States.
39:17 Is that an accurate description of that chain?
39:19 Yes, sir. The majority of the precursors are coming from PRC, and they are trafficked into Mexico various ways.
39:28 You are right. It is a diffuse command and control structure in how it's produced, and then the major cartels move it back in the U.S.
39:36 So the reason why I ask is, so unlike coca, which was grown, you know, agriculturally, and then these labs out in the jungle would put it together,
39:44 and the cartels would move it and so forth, and they had vertically integrated in Colombia for a while,
39:49 the difference here is I agree 100% that we need to do a better job of monitoring and stopping it at the border, attacking it at the street level,
39:57 diminishing the demand in our own country and so forth, but it seems to me that the key here, part of the key,
40:04 is disrupting the influx of both the precursor chemicals and to some extent the technologies,
40:10 the pill presses and other equipment that they are using to bring this stuff together.
40:15 And I don't know how we do that without the cooperation of the Mexican government,
40:20 who has to be willing at their ports of entry, particularly these cargo ships come in,
40:24 to use a variety of methods to stop these precursors from coming in.
40:29 These precursors have legitimate uses. They exist for other reasons, but obviously when they're being shipped for a certain purpose,
40:34 certain quantities into Mexico, there's real suspicion.
40:39 Again, we don't want to divulge tactics in some ways because it undermines it,
40:43 but is there a strategy being thought of and who is in charge of developing,
40:47 and that's maybe why the DEA should be here today, a strategy that theoretically could work at disrupting the influx of these precursor chemicals
40:56 that are necessary to cook this stuff up, and the equipment I would add.
41:02 So who's in charge of that? Who's doing the thinking about what creative ways we can use to crack down on that end of the supply chain?
41:10 Sir, this is our top priority from a security perspective in the whole region,
41:16 and the White House is directly involved, from the President on down, we're working on this all the time.
41:21 When you talk about border security, port security, you're looking at DHS.
41:26 But I'm talking about Mexican ports.
41:28 And then with INL supporting from the building partner capabilities within Mexico.
41:34 So this is a partnered effort between State Department and DHS and DOJ, and it's a comprehensive approach.
41:43 We absolutely are focusing on trying to stop the precursors.
41:46 There's been advancements over the last year in working with PRC.
41:51 They did in 2019 stop fentanyl, but they are still the source for precursors.
41:57 We have had a number of engagements, started last year with the President and Xi Jinping,
42:03 and then culminated this January with a working group meeting that my boss went to along with the White House.
42:09 And we are starting to improve our coordination with the PRC government on this, but that is critical.
42:16 We have to remember that some of these precursors are going through the United States,
42:20 so this is also internal to the United States that we need to be working on this.
42:25 So when we talk about the border, it's flowing both ways.
42:28 And we're trying to work with the Mexicans on our southern border to have the layered security that we use on both sides.
42:35 And we have a number of initiatives in INL to improve border security working with the Mexicans.
42:40 And then port security is also critical.
42:43 So what you have here is multiple U.S. government agencies involved in improving information sharing,
42:50 improving capacities, working more closely with our Mexican counterparts.
42:54 You are right, it is a totally new game with synthetics.
42:58 Going to the Chairman's question about Mexican cooperation,
43:01 the key here is not simply how many people are they stationing at the border to search trucks.
43:05 It really begins with how willing and capable are they, the key being willing,
43:10 and obviously the capabilities we can help provide, but there has to be the willingness to actually put in place things that slow
43:16 or diminish and put a dent in the entry of these precursors into Mexico.
43:22 And I ask that because Mexico has a growing consumption problem.
43:26 It's no longer the U.S. There is now a growing fentanyl consumption problem, not just in Mexico,
43:30 but in multiple other countries in the region.
43:32 So whether it's under the current president there now or after the new election,
43:37 I think at some point Mexico is going to be facing a crisis in regards to this that will look somewhat like ours.
43:45 They may have an incentive to do it.
43:46 But at this stage, given the Chairman's question, how is that level of cooperation
43:52 and willingness to identify this as a problem and address it?
43:56 Because it's a lot easier to go after the precursors, try to go after the precursors,
43:59 than it is to go raid a thousand little labs.
44:05 That is absolutely true.
44:08 I will say this.
44:09 We have strong cooperation across the board.
44:12 Our interdiction results are dramatically increasing.
44:16 We are--
44:17 --of the precursors.
44:18 --of precursors and the pills and the fentanyl powder and the pill presses.
44:25 And I think DHS would be able to give you better statistics about what we have been seizing on the U.S. law enforcement side.
44:34 But we're seeing advances across the board.
44:36 It's still a dent, and we have a lot of room to improve.
44:41 But we are seeing this cooperation, and I think both countries, the fact that we're part of this trilateral commission with Canada
44:50 shows that we're really trying to approach it, all three countries, since this is also a problem that's affecting Canada.
44:58 I'd like to ask about two more topics, Nicaragua and then TCO involvement in human smuggling and human trafficking migration challenges.
45:08 So beginning on Nicaragua, Senator Rubio and I have worked pretty closely on the human rights situation there.
45:14 And in your opening testimony, you talked a little bit about sanctions that have been imposed against individuals and actors in Nicaragua.
45:23 One of the things I think we have to grapple with here is sanctions are appropriate for punishing bad behavior,
45:29 but we would also hope that sanctions might promote good behavior, that there might be individuals or organizations
45:37 that want sanction that would decide to change their behavior and get better.
45:41 But I struggle to see whether sanctions that we've used in the region have promoted much good behavior.
45:47 Is there any positive news out of the sanctions imposed in Nicaragua, for example?
45:53 I mean, again, punishing bad behavior, that's something we should do.
45:56 But again, we would want sanctions to promote good behavior.
45:59 What are we seeing in Nicaragua that suggests sanctions might be having any positive effect?
46:06 Yeah, I don't have a lot of good news to tell about Nicaragua.
46:11 I mean, what we've seen is continued repression by the Ortega Murillo regime against all types of leaders,
46:19 including religious, both evangelicals and Catholics, all human rights activists.
46:27 We did do a designation of the Nicaraguan attorney general on March 21st because of the repression that she had enabled
46:37 on behalf of Daniel Ortega and his wife, Rosario Murillo.
46:44 And so her role has been, she's been active in shuttering more than 3,500 civil society organizations
46:52 and, as I said, about 250 evangelical groups.
46:56 We've been very clear and expansive and comprehensive with our sanctions.
47:04 We have not yet seen those kinds of results that we would see in other parts of the region,
47:10 which I think Richard could speak to.
47:12 And even before Richard speaks to it, you know, you see Nicaragua pushing back.
47:18 Some of what they're doing with the visa flights into Nicaragua are allowing people in, charging them a lot to land.
47:25 It's a revenue generator for the government.
47:28 And then hoping that they'll flee north and create problems for us.
47:32 So the sanctions are not promoting good behavior.
47:36 Again, punishing bad behavior is important, but they may even be leading Nicaragua to decide how they can sort of diabolically make our challenges more significant.
47:46 Here, Mr. Neff, you were about to say something.
47:48 Yes, Senator, if I can, very briefly.
47:51 Two sets of thoughts.
47:52 First, you know, I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that sanctions should not only be about responding to bad behavior,
47:59 but also channeling and encouraging better sorts of behavior.
48:02 But candidly, as I've written about in my academic work as well, that is not always a one-and-done process.
48:08 In fact, as we find with sanctions programs around the world, it is a multi-step process,
48:13 in part because the other side does get a vote in how they are able to respond.
48:17 And that interplay between the actions taken and the responses, that's how a sanctions program needs to move forward.
48:23 So this is a very tricky business, and it's not one that we think,
48:26 and I don't think anyone on this side of the table believes that one set of sanctions will solve this problem.
48:31 The second thing, though, I'd like to say, sir, is I think there's a couple other roles that sanctions play,
48:36 especially in the anti-corruption space, that are incredibly important.
48:39 First is we should remember that there are also defensive measures, that by imposing sanctions on some of these actors,
48:44 we stop them from coming to the United States, both physically in terms of visas, but also in terms of their assets.
48:49 So from that perspective, there's a national security direct impact on the United States.
48:53 There's also support for civil society organizations.
48:56 Frankly, I've never seen more people encourage U.S. sanctions use than civil society organizations around the world
49:03 that are afflicted by corruption, and transnational organized crime actors as well.
49:08 They want to see these steps as tools to help end impunity and respond to it.
49:12 And providing them that kind of support by demonstrating that we're with them on accountability is quite important.
49:16 And last, I would also say it's a signal to markets, and it's a signal to prosecuting authorities all around the world,
49:21 both economic markets and how other businesses and activities operate,
49:24 but also to other authorities to consider their own sanctions tools, to look at ways in which they can put pressure on actors as well.
49:31 So we don't just look at these actions that impose a set of sanctions on a set of actors.
49:34 We also then talk about them with private sector actors, other governments,
49:37 to encourage them to also bring their approach, their pressure, their diplomatic engagement in many of these contexts, sir.
49:43 There's also a proof challenge with sanctions, which is if you impose sanctions for bad behavior,
49:50 and the bad actors don't improve their behavior, nevertheless, there may be folks that haven't been sanctioned
49:56 that see that and choose to keep their behavior on the better side of the line.
50:00 Very difficult to prove that, but that's part of what sanctions can do.
50:04 Let me switch to TCOs and migration.
50:07 I lived in Honduras 40 years ago, and I feel like I have some understanding from the community that I lived in
50:13 and the friends that I continue to have in the Northern Triangle about what we would traditionally consider both push factors
50:20 for migration from the region, instability, violence, lack of economic opportunity, domestic violence, gender-based violence,
50:29 but also some of the pull factors, availability of better jobs, better lifestyle as a possibility in the United States.
50:38 It does seem to me during the time that I've been here in the Senate that this additional factor of TCO,
50:44 heavy involvement in migration and human trafficking is causing some of the numbers to increase.
50:51 Maybe I didn't fully understand it 10 or 12 years ago, so maybe it was similar,
50:56 but it seems like TCOs are much more involved in migration and human trafficking as a moneymaker.
51:02 Am I wrong in my assessment that the business model is changing and that that is leading to some of the problems we're seeing?
51:10 If I'm not wrong, how do we disrupt TCO involvement in this human trafficking and migration challenge?
51:19 Senator, thank you for that question.
51:23 I will say that there are TCOs that do not get involved in this, but we just know over time that left unchallenged,
51:31 they will branch out into new lines of business.
51:33 I mentioned the Clan del Golfo that made use of that area where they had control already for narco routes,
51:39 that they can easily convert that to people and other types of contraband.
51:46 Let me just add your comment earlier.
51:49 We have used a visa sanction.
51:52 It is a private one, but our 3C sanction against the air charters and operators of maritime and land transportation
52:02 that principally function just to move irregular migrants.
52:06 Taking away the visa of an executive or official of the owners of those companies has proved so far to be remarkably successful.
52:19 Senator, I'll just add that absolutely this has become a business.
52:24 Besides Clan del Golfo, when we talk about Tren de Aragua,
52:28 their engagement in much of South America has been focused on human trafficking.
52:34 From our perspective in INL, it's about law enforcement and judicial finishes.
52:38 It's about building the partner capabilities, about improving their ability to investigate,
52:45 to counter these groups, to bring cases against them and prosecute.
52:50 We have seen a number of advances.
52:54 For example, with Tren de Aragua, we have no relationship, obviously, on the law enforcement side with Venezuela,
52:59 so we are working from outside with an innovative approach to share information and trends
53:04 with I think it's 15 countries roughly in Latin America and Europe
53:09 to then help law enforcement entities build criminal cases against Tren de Aragua
53:14 so that they can go after them, assets seized, and so forth.
53:18 I think it's a law enforcement approach, building capabilities,
53:22 and then also, as we were talking before, improving border security, port security, so that we complicate movement.
53:29 Let me ask this. There are a couple of choke points in the route from South America to the United States,
53:36 and the two most constricted choke points are the border between Colombia and Panama
53:40 and the border between Guatemala and Mexico.
53:42 I've asked earlier questions about our work with Guatemala.
53:45 I know their willingness to work with us in this space.
53:48 I asked you a question about giving a candid, not diplomatic grade to Mexico on fentanyl introduction.
53:55 Talk to us about the work we're doing with the Colombian and Panamanian governments on that border crossing.
54:04 How well are they cooperating with each other, and how well are they cooperating with us?
54:10 Should I start?
54:13 Sir, I was actually INL director in Colombia and spent a lot of time in that very, very difficult border area.
54:22 My understanding right now is there is good cooperation between Colombia and Panama
54:26 in trying to address the number of trafficking issues or criminal activities,
54:31 including human trafficking and drug trafficking, along that mostly jungle border.
54:37 We have strong relationships with both countries, specifically in the INL lane.
54:43 Our relationships with the security forces in Colombia are among the best in the world,
54:47 and with Panama we have extensive relationships, including in areas like information sharing
54:54 and a number of the biometric enrollment activities that we do globally together with DHS.
55:01 Strong cooperation, that is a very difficult border to control, and it's one of those things that you need to keep on layering on,
55:10 different applications of security.
55:13 We have had some successes working with the Colombians and going after Clan del Golfo activities
55:19 related to human trafficking, where they have seized assets and made arrests,
55:25 but a highly complicated border to be able to control.
55:31 If I could just comment, thank you, Senator.
55:34 We approach migration with these countries under the framework of the L.A. Declaration on Migration
55:40 that was signed during the Summit of the Americas in Los Angeles.
55:45 Both of those countries cooperate with us rather fully.
55:49 In that sense, we're working to work on reintegration or integration efforts
55:56 so that when the Venezuelans cross into Colombia, they have a reason to stay in Colombia, and a lot of them do.
56:02 Many of them have the temporary protected status that President Duque gave,
56:08 and now we're getting news in this week that President Petro intends to extend some of those benefits to Colombians in Venezuela.
56:16 We do not find typically that they migrate to the north, so that's number one.
56:21 We do worry about migrant safety, and in this case, we have done with all of our partners in U.S. law enforcement,
56:29 using the military for training, Southcom, in the Darien Gap, to try to coordinate and do basically joint operations.
56:37 We can only surge those for a time, but we're trying to get countries to enforce their own migration practices
56:45 to prevent the metering practices where they just sort of guide people through their country and get to the next one.
56:51 But we're trying to get them to slow down, see what they can do to address migrants that are moving northward,
56:58 and maybe see if there's ways that they can practically engage them in their own country.
57:03 Thank you. I have one other question, unless Senator Rubio has one.
57:07 This isn't really on the topic, but we have you here, and it's about the Western Hemisphere.
57:12 Talk about the dispute that's going on between Ecuador and Mexico right now.
57:19 So thank you for the question.
57:22 We have incurred – so the – I think everyone knows the news that generally the Ecuadorans invaded the Mexican embassy in Quito
57:30 in an attempt to – and recovered a fugitive former vice president for Rafael Correa, Jorge Glass.
57:39 We condemned as a violation of the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations.
57:44 I believe you did. I believe most of the world condemned the Ecuadoran actions.
57:49 We urge the Mexicans and the Ecuadorans to work out this dispute.
57:56 Only the narco-traffickers and the criminals win when Ecuador and Mexico fight.
58:03 A lot of Ecuador's current problems are related to the presence of Mexican cartels and Colombian cocaine.
58:10 Ecuador is an important transshipment point, and these areas are currently under contention by Ecuadoran gangs and Mexican cartels.
58:19 So we really call on both governments to cooperate and try to find a way ahead and get through this dispute.
58:27 I appreciate that answer, and I appreciate the testimony and response to those – to our questions.
58:32 There's no more questions for the witnesses now, but the record for the hearing will remain open until the close of business this Friday, April 12, 2024.
58:41 If there are questions asked by members, I would ask that you try to respond promptly.
58:46 And I want to make sure that members submit questions.
58:50 And I, again, appreciate your willingness to appear today and also your service in this important set of missions.
58:57 The hearing is adjourned.
58:59 [BLANK_AUDIO]