Amanpour & Co. - March 6, 2024
The Alabama Supreme Court caused a nationwide uproar with a ruling that jeopardized access to IVF for families trying to conceive. In her recent piece “IVF and the GOP,” Mona Charen, policy editor at The Bulwark news site, details the conflict between legislation and fertility treatments. She joins Michel Martin to discuss how conservatives might maintain voter support.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
Transcript
00:04>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
00:06AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR&AND
00:08COMPANY."
00:09HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:10STARVING TO DEATH, THE WAR OVER
00:13FOOD IN GAZA FIVE MONTHS INTO
00:16THE ISRAELI SIEGE.
00:21>>> AND SHUTTLE DIPLOMACY,
00:23NETANYAHU RIVAL BENNY GANTZ DOES
00:24HIS BEST TO KEEP UP APPEARANCES.
00:26>>> ISRAELI HISTORIAN AND WRITER
00:30FANYA SALZ BERGER REFLECTS ON
00:31THE SORROW AND MORALITY OF THIS
00:34WAR.
00:34PLUS --
00:34>>> THERE'S NO REASON TO BE --
00:37[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH
00:40LANGUAGE ]
00:43>> ISRAEL CALLED HIM A
00:45TERRORIST, BUT THE PALESTINIANS
00:46SEE A LEADER.
00:47A NEW DOCUMENTARY EXPLORES THE
00:50ENDURING POPULARITY OF THE
00:52JAILED POLITICAL FIGURE MARWAN
00:55BARGUTI.
00:55I SPOKE TO SOPHIA SCOTT AND
01:02BARGUTI'S SON.
01:02>>> ALSO AHEAD --
01:03>> THEY CALL IT SUPER TUESDAY
01:04FOR A REASON.
01:04THIS IS A BIG ONE.
01:06>> TRUMP WINS AND NIKKI HALEY
01:08DROPS OUT OF THE GOP RACE.
01:10CONSERVATIVE JOURNALIST MONA
01:13CHARREN JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO
01:14DISCUSS HOW WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE
01:15ON THE BALLOT THIS NOVEMBER.
01:17HER LATEST PIECE "IVF AND THE
01:25GOP.
01:28"
01:38>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE
01:39POSSIBLE BY --
01:40THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
01:44JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
01:46CANDACE KING WEIR.
01:47THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:49AND MICKEY STRAUS.
01:52MARK J. BLECHNER.
01:56THE FILLMAN M. DOING STEIN
01:57ASSOCIATION.
01:58SETON J. MELVIN.
02:00CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
02:00KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
02:03COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL
02:05DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
02:06BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
02:09ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
02:10THESE FUNDERS.
02:13AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
02:15STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
02:16THANK YOU.
02:20>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
02:24EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE
02:26AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
02:30IN GAZA THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE
02:31PAYING THE PRICE OF THE 1,200
02:33KILLED AND HUNDREDS KIDNAPPED ON
02:35OCTOBER 7th.
02:36THE MOST URGENT NEED IS ACCESS
02:38TO BASIC, VITAL NECESSITIES LIKE
02:40FOOD AND WATER.
02:43AID AGENCIES SAY CHILDREN ARE
02:44FACING EXTREME MALNUTRITION AND
02:47DEHYDRATION.
02:4815 CHILDREN HAVE ALREADY DIED
02:49BECAUSE OF IT ACCORDING TO THE
02:50MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
02:51AND WITH SO MANY ORPHANED AND
02:53INJURED, HEALTH WORKERS NOW
02:55COMMONLY USE A HEARTBREAKING
02:57EUPHEMISM -- WOUNDED CHILDREN NO
03:00SURVIVING FAMILY.
03:01SO WITH FEARS OF A FULL-BLOWN
03:03FAMINE FOR MILLIONS ACROSS GAZA,
03:06THE EU COMMISSION PRESIDENT WILL
03:08TRAVEL TO CYPRESS TO DISCUSS
03:10PLANS FOR A MARITIME AID
03:13CORRIDOR TO THE GAZA COAST.
03:15AS WE REPORT NOW, PARENTS ARE
03:18SAYING GOOD-BYE TO THEIR SONS
03:19AND DAUGHTERS.
03:20AND OF COURSE, WHILE THESE
03:21IMAGES OF THEIR REALITY ARE
03:24DISTRESSING, THE MOTHERS WHO
03:25WERE INTERVIEWED SAY THEY DO
03:27WANT THE WORLD TO SEE.
03:30>> Reporter: TINY LIMBS, BONES
03:34PROTRUDING.
03:34[ CRYING ]
03:36THE CONSTANT SOUND OF CRYING
03:38FROM CHILDREN NOW FACING
03:40STARVATION IN GAZA.
03:43IN THIS OVERRUN HOSPITAL WARD,
03:46ANXIOUS MOTHERS WATCH ON AS
03:48DOCTORS PROVIDE WHATEVER CARE
03:49THEY STILL CAN.
03:52FOR SOME, THERE IS NOTHING MORE
03:57TO BE DONE.
03:593-YEAR-OLD MILA WHO HAD BEEN
04:01SUFFERING FROM ACUTE
04:04MALNUTRITION NOW ANOTHER VICTIM
04:05OF THIS MERCILESS WAR.
04:12>> SHE WAS HEALTHY, HER MOTHER
04:15SAYS, THEN EVERYTHING DROPPED.
04:16SHE WASN'T EATING ANYTHING.
04:18WE HAD NO MILK, NO EGGS,
04:19NOTHING.
04:20SHE USED TO EAT EGGS EVERY DAY
04:21BEFORE THE WAR, BUT NOW WE HAVE
04:26NOTHING.
04:26ACROSS GAZA TOO MANY ARE FEELING
04:28THE PAIN OF THIS DEEPENING
04:29HUNGER CRISIS.
04:32SMALL CHILDREN EMACIATED AND
04:38MALNOURISHED.
04:39THESE WERE THIS BOY'S FINAL
04:40MOMENTS.
04:41HIS TINY FINGERS GRIPPED IN HIS
04:43MOTHER'S HAND.
04:44HE LIKE MILA WOULD NOT MAKE IT.
04:48OTHERS ARE STILL JUST BARELY
04:51HOLDING ON.
04:51BUT THERE IS NO TELLING HOW LONG
04:53THEY WILL SURVIVE.
04:54[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH
04:56LANGUAGE ]
04:57STANDING BESIDE MILA'S BODY THE
05:00DOCTOR SAYS MANY CHILDREN AT
05:01THIS HOSPITAL ARE NOW DYING DUE
05:03TO A LACK OF FOOD AND OXYGEN
05:07SUPPLIES.
05:07WITH LIMITED AID GETTING IN,
05:09MANY HAVE GROWN DESPERATE.
05:12SEARCHING FOR FOOD WHENEVER THEY
05:16CAN.
05:169-YEAR-OLD MUHAMMAD SAYS HE
05:18WALKS FOR ABOUT A MILE EVERYDAY
05:21TO COLLECT WATER FOR HIS FAMILY.
05:23YOU SEEM SAD, WHY, THIS
05:24JOURNALIST ASKS HIM.
05:27"BECAUSE OF THE WAR," HE SAYS.
05:30IT IS ALL TOO MUCH.
05:35ON TUESDAY, U.N. EXPERTS ACCUSED
05:38ISRAEL OF INTENTIONALLY STARVING
05:40THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA.
05:44NOTING THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY
05:46IS NOW TARGETING BOTH CIVILIANS
05:49SEEKING AID AND HUMANITARIAN
05:53CONVOYS.
05:54ISRAEL HAS DENIED TARGETING
05:55CIVILIANS AND SAYS THAT THERE
05:57IS, QUOTE, NO LIMIT TO THE
05:58AMOUNT OF HUMANITARIAN AID FOR
06:02CIVILIANS IN GAZA.
06:03BUT THE REALITY ON THE GROUND
06:05PAINTS A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE.
06:06[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH
06:07LANGUAGE ]
06:09THERE IS NO FOOD, NO WATER, NO
06:12FLOUR, COOKING OIL, OR ANYTHING,
06:14THIS WOMAN SAYS.
06:15DEATH IS BETTER THAN THIS.
06:19ACCORDING TO A SENIOR U.N.
06:21OFFICIAL, AT LEAST A QUARTER OF
06:23GAZA'S POPULATION IS NOW SAID TO
06:24BE JUST ONE STEP AWAY FROM
06:30FAMINE.
06:30WITH AID AGENCIES FACING
06:34OVERWHELMING OBSTACLES AND
06:34GETTING THE BARE MINIMUM OF
06:37SUPPLIES INTO GAZA, AND AS
06:38ISRAEL'S GRAND OFFENSIVE
06:40THREATENS TO PUSH FURTHER INTO
06:41THE STRIP'S DENSELY POPULATED
06:43SOUTH, TIME IS QUICKLY RUNNING
06:47OUT.
06:47WHILE INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO
06:49AIRDROP HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES
06:50HAVE PROVIDED SOME RESPITE, IT
06:54IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH.
06:57WITH STALLING NEGOTIATIONS
06:59LEAVING LITTLE HOPE FOR AN END
07:01TO THE SUFFERING AND HUNGER OF
07:05THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA.
07:11>> NADA BESHEAR REPORTING THERE,
07:14THE EXAMPLE, REALITY OF WHY SO
07:16MANY AROUND THE WORLD ARE
07:17CALLING FOR A HUMANITARIAN
07:19CEASE-FIRE.
07:19ISRAEL'S WAR CABINET MEMBER
07:21BENNY GANTZ HAS FLOWN HERE TO
07:23LONDON FROM WASHINGTON AS THE UK
07:25ALSO WARNS ABOUT URGENTLY
07:27EXPANDING A HUMANITARIAN AID
07:29CONVOY TO GAZA.
07:31GANTZ WAS REPORTEDLY TAKEN ABACK
07:32AFTER HE WAS TOLD REPEATEDLY
07:35THAT ISRAEL MUST ALLEVIATE THE
07:37HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING BY BOTH
07:40VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS AND
07:40NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE
07:42SULLIVAN.
07:42THAT'S ACCORDING TO U.S. AND
07:45ISRAELI OFFICIALS.
07:46AND INSIDE ISRAEL, MORE AND MORE
07:48CITIZENS ARE PUBLICLY WRESTLING
07:50WITH MORAL BALANCE OVER THEIR
07:52SHOCKING LOSS IN TRAUMA, AND
07:54THAT BEING INFLICTED NOW BY THE
07:56GOVERNMENT ON PALESTINIAN
07:59CIVILIANS.
08:00AN EMERITUS PROFESSOR OF HISTORY
08:02AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA IS
08:03ALSO THE DAUGHTER OF THE FAMED
08:06ISRAELI NOVELIST ALMAS OZ AND A
08:13SELF-PROCLAIMED PEACE NIC.
08:15SHE TALKED ABOUT FINDING A
08:17POLITICAL SOLUTION AND
08:18PROTECTING HAMAS WHILE
08:19PROTECTING THE SOUL OF THE
08:21NATION.
08:21WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
08:23>> THANK YOU.
08:24>> CAN I ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE
08:28AN ISRAELI INTELLECTUAL AND
08:29THERE SEEMS TO BE A NUMBER OF
08:31YOUR FELLOW INTELLECTUALS
08:35STARTING TO -- I DON'T KNOW IF
08:36QUESTION IS THE RIGHT WORD, BUT
08:38STARTING TO TALK ABOUT AND WRITE
08:41ABOUT THE ENORMOUS COST IN
08:44GLOBAL ACCEPTANCE, PUBLIC
08:47OPINION, THAT ISRAEL IS
08:48SUFFERING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF
08:51WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA WITH
08:53THE DEATH OF 30,000 PEOPLE, YOU
08:55KNOW, STARVATION, FAMINE.
08:57ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU
09:00KNOW.
09:00>> YES.
09:01SO YES, WE HAVE STARTED -- WE
09:03HAVE NOT STARTED ACTUALLY, WE'VE
09:04BEEN AT IT FOR QUITE A WHILE
09:07NOW.
09:07IT WAS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT A
09:10WAR IN GAZA WILL HAVE A TERRIBLE
09:13TOLL, A TERRIBLE COST IN
09:16HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING IN GAZA.
09:18I COULD MANY OF US KNEW THIS
09:19FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.
09:22AND STILL WE FELT AND I STILL
09:25FEEL AS WE TALK NOW THAT
09:29DEFEATING HAMAS IS WHOLLY
09:31NECESSARY.
09:31IT IS MORALLY RIGHT.
09:34HOWEVER, THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT
09:35THE KIND OF WAR THAT I AND MANY
09:38OTHER ISRAELIS WOULD HAVE LIKED
09:40TO FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS.
09:43>> DO YOU THINK AS HARARI SAID
09:47THAT HE FEARS FOR THE SOUL OF
09:49ISRAEL, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU
09:51THINK -- YOU'VE SEEN WITH YOUR
09:52OWN EYES THESE SELFIES THAT
09:53ISRAELI SOLDIERS ARE TAKING OF
09:56THEMSELVES IN GAZA.
10:00DO YOU THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
10:02THIS IS -- I GUESS DIMINISHING
10:04THE SELF-PROCLAIMED NOTION OF
10:06THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE
10:09WORLD.
10:09>> I WILL NOT CALL ANY ARMY IN
10:11THE WORLD THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN
10:13THE WORLD.
10:14I THINK THAT THIS IS A DOOMED
10:17KIND OF COMPETITION.
10:19I DO THINK THAT ISRAEL, THE
10:20ISRAEL THAT I HAVE GROWN UP IN,
10:23THAT I HAVE KNOWN, THAT I HAVE
10:25LOVED, THAT I STILL LOVE, THIS
10:28KIND OF ISRAEL HAS ATTEMPTED IN
10:32THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY TO
10:36DIMINISH THE SUFFERING OF BOTH
10:38OURSELVES AND OUR ENEMIES AND
10:40CERTAINLY OUR ENEMY CIVILIANS
10:43AND INNOCENTS.
10:45GAZA HAS INNOCENT PEOPLE.
10:46NOT ALL CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT,
10:48UNFORTUNATELY, BUT WE CANNOT
10:49TELL THE DIFFERENCE WHEN WE
10:52FIGHT.
10:53HENCE, ALL CIVILIANS DESERVE TO
10:55BE PROTECTED AS BEST WE CAN.
10:57I THINK THAT IN THIS WAR WE HAVE
11:00PARTIALLY FAILED IN DOING THAT,
11:02ALTHOUGH WE HAVE BEEN TRYING.
11:05THE IDF HAS ATTEMPTED TO
11:08DIMINISH THE DANGER TO
11:10CIVILIANS, NOT ALWAYS
11:12SUCCESSFULLY, AND SOMETIMES
11:13PREFERRING THE SANCTITY OF OUR
11:15OWN -- SAFETY OF OUR OWN
11:17SOLDIERS TO SAFETY OF LOCAL
11:19CIVILIANS.
11:19IT IS A COMPLICATED CASE.
11:21IT IS A HORRIBLE -- A SET OF
11:23HORRIBLE MORAL DILEMMAS.
11:25AND I CERTAINLY WISH THAT
11:29ANOTHER LEADERSHIP, ANOTHER
11:31PRIME MINISTER, ANOTHER KIND OF
11:33WAR CABINET WOULD HAVE BEEN
11:35RUNNING THIS WAR, NOT THE
11:38PREVIOUS WARS WHERE PARADOXICAL
11:41-- BUT THIS WAR IS AMONG THE
11:44WORST, PERHAPS THE WORST,
11:45PERHAPS THE UGLIEST, PERHAPS THE
11:47DIRTIEST THAT WE EVER HAD TO
11:50FIGHT.
11:50AND STILL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE
11:54HAVE TO DEFEAT HAMAS, NOT
11:57DISREGARDING THE MORAL DILEMMAS,
11:59BUT DOING OUR BEST WHICH WE
12:02HAVEN'T UNFORTUNATELY AT TRYING
12:04TO KEEP DOING OUR BEST FOR THE
12:05INNOCENT AND UNINVOLVED.
12:08>> HOW MANY ISRAELIS DO YOU
12:10THINK SHARE THAT OPINION?
12:11BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THE
12:14OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF
12:17ISRAELIS BELIEVE IN THIS WAR.
12:18AND AS YOU SAY, THE OVERWHELMING
12:20MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS ALSO DO NOT
12:22BELIEVE IN THE LEADERSHIP OF
12:24BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, YOUR CURRENT
12:26PRIME MINISTER.
12:26>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME
12:28SAY -- AND THIS IS A CAVEAT THAT
12:30I HAVE TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR,
12:33THAT UNLIKE THE REST OF THE
12:34WORLD WHO IS WATCHING US ON THE
12:39SCREENS AND MORALIZING FROM THE
12:42ARMCHAIR, WE ARE A BATTERED
12:44NATION RIGHT NOW.
12:45WE ARE NOT ONLY HEARTBROKEN, SO
12:48HEARTBROKEN THAT SOMETIMES IT'S
12:50DIFFICULT TO BE HEARTBROKEN FOR
12:53THE CIVILIANS ON THE ENEMY SIDE.
12:57WE ARE ALSO MIND BOGGLED,
12:58SHOCKED, HUMILIATED, VERY FEW
13:01ISRAELIS WILL ADMIT THAT, BUT WE
13:03MIGHT AS WELL SAY WE ALSO FEEL
13:05HUMILIATED.
13:06TERRIBLY SADDENED, TERRIBLY
13:08SCARED, WITH A SENSE OF AN
13:10ONGOING CRISIS, THE WORST IN OUR
13:12HISTORY FOR SURE, AND AN ONGOING
13:15SENT OF TRAGIC LOSS.
13:17I'M SAYING THAT THIS NOT ONLY IN
13:20ORDER -- NOT IN ORDER TO PLAY
13:23THE VICTIM'S CARD, I DON'T
13:25BELIEVE IN PLAYING A VICTIM'S
13:27CARD.
13:27BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT MANY OF US
13:30HAVE BEEN TRULY VICTIMIZED ON
13:33THE 7th OF OCTOBER AND OF COURSE
13:36THE HOSTAGES ARE STILL SUFFERING
13:38A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE FATE.
13:41I'M WORRYING LIKE SO MANY
13:44ISRAELIS DO NOW -- WEARING LIKE
13:46SO MANY ISRAELIS DO NOW THE
13:48BRING THEM HOME -- TOKEN.
13:50AND OUR HEART, AS IT SAYS, IS
13:52CAPTIVE IN GAZA.
13:55WE ARE NOT BEING TOTALLY
13:57RATIONAL NOW.
13:58I DON'T THINK THAT WE ARE
13:59SITTING HERE, MOST OF US, APART
14:02FROM PERHAPS FROM A FEW STRONG
14:03WOMEN AND MEN, MOST OF US ARE
14:05NOT WEIGHING THE MORAL OPTIONS
14:07AND NECESSITIES IN A TOTALLY
14:09RATIONAL WAY BECAUSE WE ARE
14:11DEEPLY, DEEPLY INVOLVED.
14:15HURT, INJURED, SURPRISED IN A
14:18NEGATIVE WAY BEYOND THE CAPACITY
14:20OF MANY PEOPLE, TO TAKE UP
14:24COMPLICATIONS, NUANCES, TO
14:26UNDERSTAND OR TO TRY TO IMAGINE
14:29THE OTHER SIDE.
14:30AND HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK
14:32THAT MANY ISRAELIS BELIEVE THAT
14:34WE SHOULD HAVE HAD A
14:37HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE AND
14:38HOSTAGE EXCHANGE, ANOTHER
14:41CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE EXCHANGE
14:43MONTHS AGO.
14:45SO ALONGSIDE THE FEAR AND THE
14:48SADNESS AND THE SHOCK, THERE IS
14:49ALSO A MOUNTING SENSE OF ANGER
14:54AMONG THE ISRAELI POPULATION
14:56AGAINST OUR OWN LEADERSHIP, OUR
14:59COALITION GOVERNMENT, AND
15:00ESPECIALLY OUR PRIME MINISTER.
15:02>> YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST SO
15:03INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SAY
15:04THAT.
15:05AND I JUST WANT TO AT THIS POINT
15:06BRING IN AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID
15:08WITH YOUR OWN FATHER, THE GREAT
15:10NOVELIST AMAS OZ, IN 2010, WITH
15:16A PALESTINIAN LAWYER WHOSE OWN
15:17SON WAS KILLED BY A PALESTINIAN
15:19GUNMAN, IN FACT.
15:20BUT THIS IS WHAT YOUR FATHER
15:22SAID TO US ABOUT THE STORY OF
15:25THE OTHER -- ABOUT THE EVENTUAL
15:27DAY AFTER, ABOUT THE EVENTUAL
15:29SOLUTION.
15:30AND I JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS AND
15:32SEE WHAT YOU SAY.
15:32>> YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO
15:34BE A PROPHET COMING FROM THE
15:35LAND OF THE PROPHETS.
15:36LET ME GIVE YOU ONE PROPHECY.
15:38ONE DAY THERE WILL BE A
15:40PALESTINIAN EMBASSY IN ISRAEL
15:42AND AN ISRAELI EMBASSY IN
15:44PALESTINE, AND THOSE TWO
15:46EMBASSIES WILL BE WALKING
15:47DISTANCE FROM ONE ANOTHER
15:48BECAUSE ONE OF THEM WILL BE IN
15:50EAST JERUSALEM AND THE OTHER IN
15:52WEST JERUSALEM.
15:53>> SO THAT WAS IN 2010, 14 YEARS
15:57AGO.
15:57>> YES.
15:57>> WHEN YOU HEAR THAT --
15:59>> OH, YES.
15:59>> -- IS THAT AN EXTINGUISHED
16:01HOPE, OR IS THAT A HOPE THAT
16:03THIS HORROR HAS RELIT?
16:06WHAT DO YOU THINK?
16:07>> WELL, MY FATHER HAD TWO KINDS
16:10OF HOPES.
16:10I WOULD NOT BE A LOYAL DAUGHTER
16:12IF I DIDN'T SOMETIMES DISAGREE
16:13WITH HIM.
16:14BUT HE BELIEVED THAT PEACE IS
16:17POSSIBLE IN OUR DAY AND AGE, AND
16:19HE ALSO BELIEVED IN THE
16:22TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
16:23I UNFORTUNATELY CANNOT USE THE
16:25WORD PEACE VERY EASILY AFTER THE
16:287th OF OCTOBER.
16:29I WILL NOT HAVE PEACE WITH THE
16:32BRUTES OF GAZA, AND I'M NOT
16:34TALKING ABOUT ALL GAZANS, OF
16:36COURSE, BUT ABOUT HAMAS AND ITS
16:39SUPPORTERS.
16:39NOT IN THIS GENERATION, PERHAPS
16:40NOT IN THE NEXT.
16:41BUT I DO STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT
16:43THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS ALIVE.
16:46IT IS THE ONE-STATE SOLUTION
16:48IDEA THAT WE WILL ALL LIVE
16:50HAPPILY EVER AFTER AS FELLOW
16:53CITIZENS IN ONE AS PEOPLE DEMAND
16:55A LIBERAL SECULAR STATE THAT I
16:58THINK IS A FANTASY FOR THIS DAY
17:00AND AGE.
17:01BUT I BELIEVE STRONGLY, AS MY
17:02FATHER DID, THAT THE TWO-STATE
17:07SOLUTION IN REASONABLE
17:08NEIGHBORHOOD, PERHAPS NOT LOVE,
17:10PERHAPS NOT FULL PEACE, PERHAPS
17:12NOT FRIENDSHIP, BUT REASONABLE
17:14NEIGHBORHOOD ACROSS A SOLID
17:17FENCE THIS TIME SHOULD WORK AND
17:19IS, IN FACT, THE ONLY VIABLE
17:21SOLUTION FOR THE FUTURE OF BOTH
17:24ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.
17:26>> AND YOUR FATHER DESCRIBED
17:29HIMSELF AS A PEACENICK NOT A
17:35PACIFIST.
17:35DO YOU FEEL THAT, AS WELL?
17:36>> I REMEMBER HIM EXPANDING ON
17:37THIS.
17:38YES, FEEL THE SAME.
17:39I'M CERTAINLY NOT A PACIFIST.
17:41A PACIFIST IS THE KIND OF PERSON
17:43WHO FACING AGGRESSION WOULD LAY
17:46DOWN AND DIE OR RUN AWAY OR LOAF
17:48THE COUNTRY AS -- LEAVE THE
17:50COUNTRY AS SOME PEOPLE ACROSS
17:51THE GLOBE DEMAND OF US TO LEAVE
17:52OUR HOMELAND AND GO BACK WHERE,
17:57WHERE, TO THE JEWISH PAST, TO
17:59THE HOLOCAUST.
17:59I DO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD
18:00HAVE A STRONG ARMY.
18:02I'M PROUD THAT I ALSO SERVED AS
18:04A SOLDIER AND AN OFFICER IN THE
18:06ISRAELI ARMY MANY YEARS AGO.
18:08AND I THINK THAT THIS ARMY IS
18:10THE ONLY THING KEEPING US FROM
18:14BEING EXTERMINATED AS A PEOPLE
18:16AND AS A COUNTRY IN THIS PART OF
18:18THE MIDDLE EAST.
18:19>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THE
18:21CREATIVES, THE WRITERS, THE
18:23ARTISTS LIKE YOURSELF AND
18:24YOUR -- AND THE OTHERS IN ISRAEL
18:26WHO ARE BEGINNING TO HAVE THIS
18:29OPEN DISCUSSION NOW?
18:32>> BECAUSE WRITERS, CHRISTIANE,
18:33AND CREATORS AND ARTISTS ARE
18:35PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN
18:36INJURED.
18:37YOU DON'T BECOME A GREAT ARTIST
18:38IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A WOUNDED
18:40SOUL.
18:40AND HAVING A WOUNDED SOUL
18:42USUALLY MEANS THAT YOU
18:45UNDERSTAND AND EMPATHIZE WITH
18:46THE WOUNDS OF OTHERS.
18:48YOU ARE, AS MY FATHER USED TO
18:50SAY, CAPABLE OF IMAGINING THE
18:53OTHER.
18:53HAVING SAID THAT, NO, IT IS NOT
18:55ONLY THE WRITERS AND THE ARTISTS
18:57WHO ARE COMING FORWARD TO SPEAK
19:00ABOUT THE HUMANITY OF THE OTHER
19:02SIDE AND OF COURSE OUR OWN
19:03HUMANITY THAT NEEDS TO BE
19:04PRESERVED.
19:05MANY PARTS OF ISRAELI CIVIL
19:08SOCIETY INCLUDING THE VETERANS
19:10OF THE PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT OF
19:14LAST YEAR, MANY GOOD PEOPLE IN
19:16THIS COUNTRY, MOST PART OF THE
19:18ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, THE
19:20ISRAELI PALESTINIANS, MY FELLOW
19:22CITIZENS HERE, AND MUCH OF THE
19:25LIBERAL AND CENTRIST LEFT AND
19:28CENTRAL LIBERALS ARE PEOPLE WHO
19:32WOULD BE WILLING TO TALK REASON
19:34AND TO SEE REASON AND TO MOVE
19:36TOWARD AN INTERNATIONAL
19:38GUARANTEE AGREEMENT THAT IS
19:39TOWARD HOPE.
19:40SO YES, THE ARTISTS, THE
19:42WRITERS, THE POETS MAY BE
19:44LEADING THE WAY, BUT A LOT OF
19:46GOOD SOULS IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH
19:48HAS NOT LOST ITS SOUL AS YET, A
19:51LOT OF GOOD SOULS WILL BE ABLE
19:55TO CHIME IN AND TO TAKE PART
19:58WHEN THE TRUE PROCESS BEGINS.
20:02AGAIN, PERHAPS NOT PEACE IN OUR
20:05TIME, PERHAPS NOT RECONCILIATION
20:06IN AN EMOTIONAL SENSE, BUT A
20:10RATIONAL AGREEMENT LEAVING
20:12ISRAEL WITH INDEFENSIBLE BORDERS
20:14AND A STRONG DEMOCRACY ALONGSIDE
20:18A VIABLY STABLE PALESTINE IS THE
20:22ONLY WAY WE CAN MOVE FORWARD,
20:25AND THIS MEANS HOPE.
20:26SO YES, I STILL FOLLOW MY FATHER
20:29AND MANY OTHER GREAT ISRAELI
20:32WOMEN AND MEN IN THE GENERAL
20:34HOPE FOR THE FUTURE OF ALL OF US
20:37HERE, OF THIS WONDERFUL TEL AVIV
20:39WHOSE LIGHTS ARE TWINKLING
20:40BEHIND ME.
20:41THERE IS HOPE, AND WE SHOULD
20:43KEEP IT UP.
20:44>> WELL, WE ARE HAPPY TO HEAR
20:45YOU VOICE THAT HOPE.
20:48FANIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
20:49BEING WITH US.
20:52>> THANK YOU.
20:53>>> SO WHERE SHOULD PALESTINIANS
20:55LOOK FOR NEW LEADERSHIP FOR THE
20:57DAY AFTER?
20:58THE GOVERNING PA IS DEEPLY
21:01UNPOPULAR.
21:01ISRAEL IS AIMING TO ELIMINATE
21:04HAMAS FROM ANY FUTURE
21:05GOVERNMENT.
21:05A MAN WHO HAS BEEN IMPRISONED
21:06FOR TWO DECADES IS BACK IN THE
21:09SPOTLIGHT.
21:13MARWAN BARGATU CONSIDERED A
21:15TERRORIST BY ISRAEL, BY OTHERS
21:16AS A PALESTINIAN MANDELA.
21:18THE CENTRAL FIGURE IN THE
21:19PALESTINIAN POLITICAL SCENE
21:20THROUGHOUT THE 1990s WAS
21:22CONVICTED ON FIVE COUNTS OF
21:24MURDER IN 2004.
21:26HE DIDN'T EASE THOSE CHARGES AND
21:27-- DENIES THOSE CHARNS AND
21:30REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE THE ISRAELI
21:31COURT.
21:32"TOMORROW'S FREEDOM" PAINTS A
21:34PORTRAIT THROUGH INTIMATE ACCESS
21:35TO HIS FAMILY WHO ARE CARRYING
21:37ON HIS CAUSE ON THE OUTSIDE.
21:40HERE'S A CLIPS.
21:43>> ISRAEL SUCCEEDED TO ARREST MY
21:46BODY BUT NOT MY HEAD AND NOT MY
21:49SOUL.
21:49THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED TO DO
21:50THAT.
21:51THEY WILL NOT BROKE OUR WILL FOR
21:53INDEPENDENCE AND FOR FREEDOM.
21:55>> JOINING ME NOW IS
21:57CO-DIRECTOR, SOPHIA SCOTT.
21:58SHE'S JOINING ME HERE ON SET IN
22:00LONDON.
22:00AND BARGUTI ANTICIPATES SON IN
22:03RAMALLAH ON THE OCCUPIED WEST
22:06BANK.
22:06WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.
22:09SOPHIA, LET ME START BY ASKING
22:12YOU, I READ THAT YOU SAID THAT
22:13BEFORE YOU STARTED THIS YOU WERE
22:14DOING A DOCUMENTARY ELSEWHERE,
22:15YOU HAD NEVER EVEN HEARD OF
22:18BARGUTI.
22:18AND YOU KNOW THE MIDDLE EAST
22:19PRETTY WELL.
22:21WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO A WHOLE
22:23DOCUMENTARY ON HIM THEN?
22:25>> MY SISTER AND I WERE IN
22:27LEBANON AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A
22:28LOT OF PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THERE,
22:30A LOT OF MURALS OF MARWAN
22:35BARGUTI.
22:36WE WERE INTERESTED.
22:37HIS FACE WAS CHARISMATIC.
22:38WHEN WE GOOGLED HIS NAME AN
22:39INTERVIEW CAME UP WITH LINDSEY
22:41HILLSON A FEW YEARS AFTER HE WAS
22:43ARRESTED.
22:44AND HE SPOKE PASSIONATELY, AND
22:47WE WERE INTRIGUED BY THIS PERSON
22:48THAT SOME OF THE PALESTINIANS IN
22:50LEBANON WERE TELLING US COULD BE
22:52OUR NELSON MANDELA.
22:53WE HADN'T HEARD OF HIM BEFORE.
22:55SO WE REACHED OUT IMMEDIATELY
22:58ACTUALLY TO HIS FAMILY TO SEE
23:00WHETHER THEY MIGHT BE INTERESTED
23:01IN US TRYING TO TELL SOME KIND
23:05OF STORY.
23:06>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT LINDSEY
23:08HILLSON, OUR COLLEAGUE FROM
23:09CHANNEL 4.
23:10IN FACT, THAT CLIP WE PLAYED WAS
23:11FROM HER INTERVIEW.
23:12IT'S THE ONLY INTERVIEW WITH A
23:14NON-WESTERN AUTO -- A WESTERN
23:16PRESS HE'S DONE OR ANY PRESS
23:18SINCE HE'S BEEN IN JAIL.
23:22BUT DID YOU -- SO YOU WANTED
23:24TO -- DID YOU EVER GET ACCESS OR
23:26ASK THE ISRAELIS TO GIVE YOU
23:27ACCESS TO MARWAN HIMSELF?
23:29>> WE WERE VERY NERVOUS
23:31TRAVELING INTO ISRAEL TO GET
23:32INTO PALESTINE.
23:33SO WE DIDN'T WANT TO RAISE ANY
23:36AWARENESS ABOUT WHAT WE WERE
23:36DOING.
23:37SO WE WENT IN VERY QUIETLY.
23:39SO WE NEVER ACTUALLY PUT A
23:41REQUEST IN TO INTERVIEW HIM.
23:42WE'RE MAKING A FILM WHERE OUR
23:44MAIN CHARACTER IS ABSENT TO US.
23:46SO THAT GAVE US LOTS OF ISSUES
23:49INITIALLY.
23:49BUT ACTUALLY THE MORE THAT WE
23:50SPOKE TO HIS FAMILY, THE MORE
23:52THAT WE STARTED TO SPEAK TO
23:53PEOPLE IN HIS CIRCLE, NOT JUST
23:55PALESTINIANS BUT ISRAELIS THAT
23:56KNEW HIM BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED,
23:58WE REALLY STARTED TO PUT
23:59TOGETHER THIS PUZZLE OF THIS MAN
24:02THAT I FIND INTERESTING.
24:03>> LET ME TURN TO YOU, ARAB
24:06BARGUTI, YOU ARE HIS SON.
24:07AND WE'RE TALKING TO YOU IN
24:10RAMALLAH.
24:11SOPHIA DIDN'T HAVE ANY ACCESS.
24:13HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO SEE YOUR
24:15FATHER?
24:15AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME?
24:18AND WHAT WAS YOUR INTEREST AND
24:20THE FAMILY'S INTEREST IN
24:22COOPERATING?
24:22WHAT DID YOU WANT TO GET OUT?
24:26>> SO FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO
24:27MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
24:29FOR THE PAST 22 YEARS SINCE I
24:33WAS 11, THAT'S WHEN MY FATHER
24:35WAS IMPRISONED.
24:36I HAVE SEEN MY FATHER TWICE A
24:39MONTH UNTIL I TURNED 16, AND
24:41THEN AFTER THAT I WOULD SEE HIM
24:43ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS, SOMETIMES
24:45THREE YEARS.
24:46IT'S BEEN 18 MONTHS SINCE THE
24:48LAST TIME I I'VE SEEN HIM.
24:50AND I STILL, YOU KNOW, THINK
24:51ABOUT HIM EVERY SINGLE DAY.
24:54HE'S MISSED THE MAIN HIGHLIGHTS
24:57OF MY LIFE AND MY SIBLINGS'
24:59LIFE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
25:01I SHARED THIS PAIN WITH
25:03THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF
25:04PALESTINIAN FAMILIES WHO ARE
25:05GOING THROUGH THE SAME.
25:07AND WHY WE WANTED TO COOPERATE,
25:10IT'S BECAUSE SOPHIA AND GEORGIA
25:13ARE GREAT PRODUCERS, ARE GREAT
25:16PEOPLE, AND THEY CAME, AND THEY
25:18WERE INTERESTED PERSONALLY IN
25:19THIS STORY.
25:20AND TO GET ACCESS TO THE FAMILY
25:22AND TO SEE WHAT PAIN WE'RE GOING
25:24THROUGH, AND THAT WAS ENOUGH FOR
25:26US TO COOPERATE WITH SUCH
25:28AMAZING PEOPLE LIKE THEM.
25:29>> SO THERE IS A SCENE OF YOU IN
25:30THE FILM OBVIOUSLY WITH YOUR
25:32BROTHER AS YOU'RE TRAVELING TO
25:33MEET HIM, THE LAST TIME YOU SAW
25:35HIM PRESUMABLY.
25:37THE FILM REALLY REVOLVES SO MUCH
25:39AROUND YOUR MOTHER.
25:39THIS SORT OF POWERHOUSE OF A
25:42LAWYER WHO HAS CARRIED ON HER
25:45JAILED HUSBAND'S MISSION AND
25:49READS HIS WORDS TO SUPPORTERS
25:52OUTSIDE.
25:53DESCRIBE YOUR MOTHER AND WHERE
25:55SHE FITS IN IN HIS LIFE, IN THE
25:58STRUGGLE, AND IN PALESTINIAN
25:59SOCIETY WHICH CAN BE QUITE
26:01CONSERVATIVE.
26:01YOU DON'T OFTEN SEE WOMEN
26:04LEADERS.
26:04>> I THINK IF I NEED AN HOUR TO
26:08DESCRIBE MY FATHER, I NEED DAYS
26:09TO DESCRIBE MY MOTHER.
26:10SHE'S SUCH AN AMAZING PERSON.
26:13AND I THINK THAT SHE IS THE ONE
26:16WHO HELD HIS MESSAGE AND TOOK IT
26:18EVERYWHERE ALL OVER THE WORLD.
26:20SHE'S SOMEONE WHO IS A TRUE ROLE
26:22MODEL NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR
26:24ALL PALESTINIANS.
26:26I THINK THAT MY MOTHER HAD TWO
26:28CHOICES -- EITHER TO STAY UPSET
26:30AND SAD ABOUT THE FACT THAT HER
26:34HUSBAND WAS ILLEGALLY TAKEN AWAY
26:35FROM HER, OR TO STRUGGLE AND
26:38TAKE HIS MESSAGE ALL OVER THE
26:40WORLD.
26:40OF COURSE, SHE CHOSE THE SECOND.
26:44SHE'S SUCH AN AMAZING STRONG
26:47WOMAN, SHE'D EDUCATED.
26:48SHE LAUNCHED THE CAMPAIGN AND
26:49THEN LAUNCHED HIS INTERNATIONAL
26:51CAMPAIGN.
26:51SHE'S MET WITH ALL THE PROMINENT
26:53LEADERS ALL OVER THE WORLD
26:56INCLUDING MANDELA HIMSELF.
26:58AND HER EFFORTS WILL NEVER BE
27:01FORGOTTEN.
27:01AT LEAST NOT FROM US, HER
27:04CHILDREN.
27:04AND I THINK THAT SHE IS STILL
27:06GOING -- SHE NEVER STOPPED.
27:09AND IT PAINS ME TO SEE HER PAIN
27:11RIGHT NOW SEEING THE CHILDREN OF
27:14GAZA.
27:14I KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S TAKING A
27:16TOLL ON HER, AS WELL IN ADDITION
27:18TO THAT WHAT MY FATHER IS
27:20CURRENTLY GOING THROUGH.
27:21BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SHE IS A
27:22STRONG WOMAN, AND SHE HAS NEVER
27:25STOPPED WORKING FOR THE RIGHTS
27:26OF THE WOMEN OF PALESTINE EVEN
27:28BEFORE WORKING IN POLITICS OR
27:30ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
27:32SHE'S A VERY -- VERY INTERESTED
27:34IN THAT TOPIC AND HAS MADE GREAT
27:37ACHIEVEMENTS.
27:38>> WHAT SURPRISED YOU MOST,
27:41SOPHIA, ABOUT FADWA?
27:43>> YOU KNOW, I THINK SHE'S GOT A
27:45VERY STRONG VOICE.
27:46YOU KNOW, WE WERE FILMING HER
27:48DURING A BIG HUNGER STRIKE, AND
27:49SHE WAS TAKING THE STAGE.
27:51SHE ON MICROPHONES SPEAKING TO
27:53BIG CROWDS, ADDRESSING PEOPLE --
27:55>> MARWAN'S HUNGER STRIKE.
27:57>> MARWAN'S HUNGER STRIKE IN
27:592017, THAT'S RIGHT.
28:00AND SHE WAS SPEAKING TO THE
28:01PEOPLE.
28:02SHE WAS VERY PASSIONATE, FOR
28:03LOUD.
28:04SHE REALLY CONTROLLED THE MIC.
28:05AND I FOUND THAT FASCINATING.
28:07THEN WHAT WAS SO WONDERFUL IS
28:08WHEN WE WENT HOME WITH HER AND I
28:11WOULD FILM HER SITTING AROUND
28:12THE SOFA WITH HER GRANDCHILDREN,
28:16AND THOSE -- I WAS HONORED AND
28:18PRIVILEGED TO HAVE ACCESS TO
28:19THAT.
28:20INTHE -- I THINK THE ABILITY TO
28:22SWITCH ON WHEN SHE HAS SO MUCH
28:23GOING ON PRIVATELY TO SWITCH ON
28:25THAT STRONG FACE AND STILL SPEAK
28:26TO THE CROWDS AND PEOPLE IN A
28:28PASSIONATE SORT OF GENTLE WAY, I
28:29THOUGHT THAT WAS A VERY
28:31BEAUTIFUL ABILITY THAT SHE HAD.
28:34>> YOU SAID -- YOU KNOW, A
28:36COUPLE OF SECOND AGO, YOU TALKED
28:38TO PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS
28:40ONE OF THEM WAS YOSI BAILEN,
28:43RIGHT?
28:43LET'S PUT THIS CASE FIRST AND
28:45FOREMOST SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS
28:46WHAT MARWAN HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF.
28:50THEY BASICALLY HAVE GIVEN HIM
28:53FIVE LIFE SENTENCES.
28:54THEY SAY THAT HE WAS A LEADER OF
28:58THE SECOND INTERFADA, AND THAT
29:00NOT ONLY THAT, HE WAS THE LEADER
29:02OF THESE BRIGADES THAT THEN
29:04CREATED -- THERE WERE MURDERS
29:06AND THE -- HE DENIES EVERYTHING.
29:08HE'S A POLITICAL LEADER, HE
29:10SAYS.
29:10AND YOU TALKED TO THE FORMER
29:16ISRAELI JUSTICE MURDER AND
29:18PARTICIPANT IN THE OSLO
29:19NEGOTIATIONS.
29:20MARWAN HIMSELF SUPPORTED THE
29:22OSLO PEACE ACCORDS WHICH WERE
29:23RECOGNIZED BY THE -- BY YASSER
29:25ARAFAT.
29:26AND IT WAS A ROAD THEY HOPED
29:28TOWARD PEACE WITH ISRAEL.
29:30LET US PLAY THE YOSI BAILEN
29:32SOUND BITE FROM YOUR FILM.
29:35>> HE USED TERROR, AND IT WAS IN
29:39MY VIEW A HUGE MISTAKE BY HIM.
29:43BUT IS MARWAN A TERRORIST?
29:45I THINK THAT HE IS NOT A
29:49TERRORIST WHO JUST WANTS TO KILL
29:51ALL ISRAELIS OR WHATEVER.
29:54I CALLED UPON RELEASING HIM FROM
29:57DAY ONE.
29:59I SAID SOMEBODY -- A POLITICAL
30:03LEADER SHOULD NOT BE IN JAIL.
30:07>> SO EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON
30:08WHAT MORE YOU HEARD FROM THE
30:11ISRAELI SIDE.
30:11>> WHEN WE DECIDED TO MAKE THIS
30:13FILM, APART FROM INITIALLY
30:15CONTACTING THE FAMILY IN
30:16RAMALLAH, WE WANTED TO GET AN
30:17IDEA OF OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE AND
30:19WHO SUPPORTED MARWAN AND WHAT
30:21THEY THOUGHT OF HIM.
30:22WE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A
30:23FILM THAT SPOKE TO MANY PEOPLE.
30:25SO WE TRACKED YOSI BAILEN DOWN.
30:28HE KINDLY GAVE US AN INTERVIEW.
30:29WE WENT TO HIS HOUSE, MET HIS
30:31WIFE.
30:31AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME WE
30:33REALLY SPOKE POLITICALLY ABOUT
30:35MARWAN.
30:36AND IT WAS THROUGH YOSI BAILEN
30:38THAT WE FELT WE COULD MAKE A
30:40FILM THAT WASN'T JUST A VERY
30:43PRO-PALESTINIAN FILM ABOUT A
30:45PALESTINIAN LEADER IN JAIL, BUT
30:46ABOUT SOMEONE THAT ACTUALLY THE
30:48ISRAELIS WERE INTERESTED IN.
30:50BACK DURING OSLO, MARWAN USED TO
30:52WORK WITH YOSI.
30:54THEY TRAVELED TOGETHER.
30:55HE WAS LIKED, AND IT WAS ALWAYS
30:57MARWAN WHO WAS GOING AND SAYING,
30:58COME ON, WE NEED TO MAINTAIN
31:02THIS MODEL FOR PEACE FOR IT TO
31:03LAST.
31:04SO HE GAVE US THE CONFIDENCE
31:05THAT MARWAN WAS INTERESTING FOR
31:09ISRAEL.
31:09AND THAT WAS NEEDED BECAUSE
31:12THERE WOULD BE NO POINT OTHER
31:13TOLLWAYS MAKE A FILM THAT --
31:15OTHERWISE TO MAKE A FILM THAT NO
31:17ONE IN ISRAEL SUPPORTED, AN
31:19INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THOUGHT
31:21WAS A COMPLETE TERRORIST.
31:22>> CAN WE BRING UP THE CURRENT
31:24AND THE LATEST POLL FIGURES ON
31:26MARWAN'S POPULARITY?
31:28SO HE IS THE MOST POPULAR
31:31PALESTINIAN POLITICAL FIGURE.
31:33IN DECEMBER, 2023, MONTHS AFTER
31:35OCTOBER 7th, HE SHOWS MORE
31:37SUPPORT THAN EITHER THE HAMAS
31:39LEADER AND FAR MORE THAN
31:42PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS.
31:43HOW DO YOU, SOPHIA, ACCOUNT FOR
31:44HIS POPULARITI?
31:46>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE
31:48INTERVIEWED PEOPLE ON THE
31:49STREETS.
31:50WE WANTED TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE OUT
31:52OF THE FAMILY.
31:52AND EVERYONE WE ASKED FROM
31:55STUDENTS TO ELDERLY PEOPLE IN
31:56THE MARKET, MARWAN, EVERYONE
31:58SAID HE IS AN HONEST MAN.
31:59HEEFTS A MAN OF THE STREET.
32:01WE KNOW WHERE HE COMES FROM.
32:02AND HE'S SITTING IN JAIL NOW,
32:04AND WE WOULD WANT HIM TO
32:06REPRESENT US.
32:07HE'S A FIGURE THAT WE BELIEVE
32:09IN.
32:10AND THAT'S IMPORTANT.
32:11AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN SPREAD
32:15THE MESSAGE, AND I HOPE THROUGH
32:16THIS FILM WE CAN LET MORE PEOPLE
32:19KNOW ABOUT MARWAN.
32:20HE'S SITTING IN JAIL.
32:21HE'S EDUCATED, EDUCATING HIMSELF
32:23CONTINUOUSLY, AND HE'S EDUCATING
32:24THE NEXT GENERATION.
32:28>> ARAB, I NEED TO YOU ASK.
32:30MARWAN BARGUTI IS THE MOST
32:33POPULAR PALESTINIAN LEADER AT
32:33THE MOMENT, AND HE'S IN JAIL.
32:37HAD HE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE PART IN
32:39THE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS WHICH
32:39NEVER HAPPENED, IT'S CONSIDERED
32:41THAT HE WOULD HAVE WON AS THE
32:44INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE THAT HE
32:45PRESENTED HIMSELF AS.
32:48DO YOU BELIEVE, AND ARE YOU
32:50SURPRISED, THAT NOW SINCE
32:51OCTOBER 7th -- OBVIOUSLY THE
32:52FILM WAS DONE BEFORE OCTOBER THE
32:537th.
32:54BUT SINCE OCTOBER THE 7th, SO
32:56MUCH MORE SPOTLIGHT HAS NOW COME
32:59TO HIM BECAUSE HE'S NEITHER
33:01HAMAS NOR FATTAH, HE'S A
33:04DIFFERENT -- HE'S NOT ONE OF
33:07THOSE FACTIONS.
33:08>> SO I THINK THAT THE SPOTLIGHT
33:11IS ON HIM BECAUSE MY FATHER
33:14HASN'T STARTED STRUGGLING FOR
33:15THE PALESTINIANS'S RIGHTS FOR A
33:17YEAR OR TWO.
33:17HE'S BEEN DOING THAT FOR MORE
33:19THAN 50 YEARS NOW.
33:20AND AS SOPHIA MENTIONED, HE
33:23DIDN'T ONLY PLAY A ROLE IN
33:25LEADING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
33:28TOWARD AN UPRISING, BUT ALSO IN
33:30THE PEACE PROCESS.
33:31AND I THINK THAT IT ONLY MAKES
33:34SENSE THAT HE GETS THIS -- THIS
33:38MUCH ATTENTION AND AT THE SAME
33:40TIME UNFORTUNATELY HE'S BEING
33:42TARGETED PERSONALLY BY THE
33:44ISRAELI PRISON AUTHORITY.
33:45AFTER OCTOBER THE 7th, HE HAS
33:46BEEN MOVED TO SOLITARY
33:49CONFINEMENT.
33:50HE'S BEEN TRANSFERRED TO FOUR
33:52DIFFERENT PRISONS IN THE LAST
33:53THREE MONTHS.
33:53WE KNOW ABOUT VERY HARSH
33:55CONDITIONS LIKE INHUMANE
33:56CONDITIONS THAT HE'S GOING
33:58THROUGH.
33:58HE'S PUT IN A CELL THAT IS A
34:01VERY, YOU KNOW, DOESN'T HAVE
34:03ELECTRICITY, DOESN'T HAVE
34:05HYGIENE, CLOTHES, ANY HUMAN --
34:07THAT ANY HUMAN WOULD NEED.
34:09AND THIS PAINS ME SO MUCH
34:11BECAUSE HE DOES NOT BELONG
34:14THERE.
34:14HE BELONGS AMONGST THE
34:16PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
34:17HE IS A FIGURE THAT IS A
34:19UNIFYING FIGURE FOR THE
34:20PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND HE'S
34:21ALSO SOMEONE WHO STRUGGLED HIS
34:22WHOLE LIFE FOR PEACE.
34:24AND FOR PEACE NOT ONLY FOR THE
34:25PALESTINIAN PEOPLE BUT ALSO FOR
34:27THE REGION.
34:28BUT I THINK THAT MAYBE THE
34:30ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS NOT
34:31INTERESTED IN A FIGURE THAT IS
34:35WORKING FOR A TRUE TWO-STATE
34:38SOLUTION, JUST NOT ANY KIND OF
34:40PEACE.
34:40THIS IS WHY THEY ARE TARGETING
34:42HIM RIGHT NOW.
34:44AND HE'S -- HE'S, OF COURSE --
34:46WE KNOW THAT LIKE, OF COURSE,
34:48I'M SCARED AND CONCERNED ABOUT
34:50HIS LIFE AS HIS SON.
34:51>> ARAB, I WANT TO ASK YOU THE
34:53FINAL QUESTION BECAUSE NOT JUST
34:56PALESTINIANS SAY HE SHOULD BE
34:57THE LEADER BUT FORMER HEAD OF
35:00ISRAELI SECURITY FORCES CALLED
35:01YOUR FATHER THE ONLY LEADER WHO
35:04CAN LEAD PALESTINIANS TO A STATE
35:05ALONGSIDE ISRAEL.
35:07BUT THEN YOU MUST ALSO KNOW
35:08BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST REFERRED TO
35:10THE ISRAELIS, THEY RELEASED YAYA
35:14SINWA.
35:14YOUR FATHER WAS DENIED RELEASE
35:16IN THE EXCHANGE.
35:17THEY RELEASED SINWA WHO WENT ON
35:20AND LED THIS CATASTROPHE AGAINST
35:23ISRAEL.
35:24DO YOU THINK THAT THAT PLAYS
35:25INTO IT, AS WELL, THAT EVEN
35:26THOUGH HE MIGHT BE SEEN AS
35:31SOMEONE WHO COULD BE A UNIFYING
35:34LEADER, THAT THAT FEAR IS ALSO
35:39EXISTING IN ISRAEL?
35:39>> WELL, I THINK THAT ANYONE
35:43WITH THE RIGHT MIND WOULD LOOK
35:45AT MY FATHER AND WOULD SEE THAT
35:47HE'S SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN VERY
35:51BRAVE IN THE PEACE PROCESS.
35:52HE'S SOMEONE WHO HAS TAKEN THESE
35:55STEPS TO COLLECT THE PALESTINIAN
35:57PEOPLE AND TO UNIFY THE
35:59PALESTINIAN PEOPLE INTO THE
36:00TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
36:02AND HE DIDN'T SHY AWAY FROM
36:04THAT.
36:06SO ANYONE WHO LIKE FIGURES IN
36:08ISRAEL WHO THINKS THAT HE CAN
36:09PLAY A ROLE IN THE FUTURE OF
36:13THIS CAUSE AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN
36:15AND HOW WE WILL GET TO PEACE,
36:18OBVIOUSLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE
36:19TALKING ABOUT.
36:19AND I -- FOR ME, I JUST WANT TO
36:22SAY THAT ALL I CARE ABOUT AS HIS
36:25SON TO BE VERY HONEST WITH YOU
36:26IS THAT HE IS SAFE.
36:28THAT HE'S RELEASED.
36:29AND THAT, OF COURSE, THE MAIN
36:31PRIORITY FOR EVERY SINGLE
36:34PALESTINIAN IS FOR THE
36:35CEASE-FIRE AND STOPPING THE
36:36GENOCIDE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE
36:38SENSITIVE TO OUR PEOPLE IN GAZA
36:39THAT ARE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING
36:44THAT WE'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
36:45>> ARAB BARGUTI, SOPHIA SCOTT.
36:49THANK YOU SO MUCH.
36:52THE FILM CAN BE SEEN ON
36:57STREAMING.
36:57>> AT THE MOMENT.
36:58>> AND YOU HOPE FOR A BROADER
37:02BROADCAST SO PEEK CAN GET TO
37:03KNOW THIS MAN.
37:07>>> LEADERSHIP IS AT PLAY AS
37:09NIKKI HALEY SUSPENDS HER
37:10PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AFTER
37:11LOSING TO DONALD TRUMP IN
37:13YESTERDAY'S REPUBLICAN SUPER
37:14TUESDAY PRIMARIES.
37:14SO WHERE WILL SHE CHOOSE TO SEND
37:16HER DELEGATES AND HER VOTERS?
37:19A KEY ISSUE DIVIDING THE PARTY
37:21IS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS WHERE
37:23HALEY HAS A MUCH MORE NUANCED
37:25VIEW THAN TRUMP OR HARD-LINE
37:27REPUBLICANS LIKE THE ALABAMA
37:29SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHICH
37:30CAUSED SUCH A NATIONWIDE UPROAR
37:32WITH ITS RULING JEOPARDIZING THE
37:35POSSIBILITIES OF IVF FOR
37:36FAMILIES WHO ARE TRYING TO
37:37CONCEIVE.
37:38NOW IN HER RECENT PIECE, "IVF
37:40AND THE GOP," MONA CHARIN FROM
37:45THE BULWARK SITES DETAILS THE
37:47CONFLICT BETWEEN LEGISLATION AND
37:48FOR TEST TREATMENTS.
37:50AND SHE'S JOINING MICHELLE
37:52MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW
37:53CONSERVATIVES CAN MAINTAIN VOTER
37:56SUPPORT.
37:57>> THANKS.
37:58MONA CHARIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH
38:01FOR JOINING US.
38:01>> MY PLEASURE.
38:02>> COULD JUST START BY TALKING A
38:05LITTLE ABOUT YOUR OWN THOUGHTS
38:06ABOUT WHEN LIFE BEGINS?
38:07I KNOW YOU HAVE YOU'VE
38:09PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED YOURSELF
38:10AS A MEMBER OF THE PRO-LIFE
38:12MOVEMENT.
38:12I MEAN, AND OBVIOUSLY THESE
38:15DECISIONS ARE ALWAYS
38:16COMPLICATED.
38:16AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, IF YOU
38:23DESCRIBE HOW YOU CAME TO THAT
38:23DECISION FOR YOURSELF, THAT
38:24THAT'S WHERE YOU PLANT YOUR
38:26FEET.
38:26WHAT INFORMS THAT DECISION FOR
38:27YOU?
38:27>> MY PATH WAS QUITE DIFFERENT,
38:30I THINK, FROM MOST PEOPLE.
38:33I DID NOT GROW UP IN A RELIGIOUS
38:36HOUSEHOLD.
38:36I DIDN'T COME BY THIS THAT
38:41ROUTE.
38:41BUT I STUDIED THE FOOTHILLS ON
38:43FEE OF LAW -- PHILOSOPHY OF LAW
38:45IN COLLEGE, OF COURSE, AND ONE
38:48OF THE SORT OF BROAD TOPICS WE
38:50ADDRESSED WAS ABORTION.
38:51I WAS ASSIGNED TO DO READING ON
38:52IT.
38:53IT SEEMED TO ME THAT THE MOST --
38:56THE MOST MORAL POSITION WOULD BE
38:59ONE THAT TOOK LIFE SERIOUSLY,
39:01TREATED IT AS SACRED.
39:04AND OF COURSE THERE'S ALWAYS AN
39:08UNDERSTANDING THAT PREGNANCY IS
39:09UNLIKE ANYTHING ELSE IN HUMAN
39:11EXPERIENCE.
39:12AND THERE ARE COMPETING RIGHTS.
39:16BUT I FOUND MYSELF VERY MUCH ON
39:17THE SIDE OF TRYING TO DO
39:21EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT
39:24ABORTION WHENEVER POSSIBLE.
39:26BUT WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF
39:29UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE
39:32CERTAIN SITUATIONS WHERE THE
39:34MOTHER'S RIGHTS NEED TO PREVAIL
39:36FOR HER HEALTH, FOR HER LIFE,
39:42SITUATIONS.
39:43>> YOU ARE KNOWN AS A
39:45CONSERVATIVE WRITER, POLICY
39:46ANALYST.
39:46YOU'VE BEEN A SPEECHWRITER IN
39:48REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS, ET
39:49CETERA.
39:50SO YOU WOULD SAY WHAT?
39:51YOU -- YOU'VE SORT OF DESCRIBED
39:53YOURSELF AS PRO-LIFE AS PART OF
39:55THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT BUT PART
39:56OF THE MUSHY MIDDLE.
39:57WOULD THAT BE FAIR?
39:59>> SO COMPLETELY FAIR.
40:01LOOK, DURING THE LAST 15 YEARS
40:04OR SO I HAVE BEEN WRITING A
40:09GREAT DEAL ABOUT CIVIL SOCIETY
40:10EFFORTS TO HELP MOMS WHO FIND
40:13THEMSELVES WITH CRISIS
40:15PREGNANCIES AND WANT AN
40:16ALTERNATIVE.
40:17SO THAT'S BEEN MY FOCUS.
40:19I HELPED TO FOUND A JEWISH
40:21ORGANIZATION CALLED IN SHIFRA'S
40:23ARMS WHICH IS A NONPROFIT THAT
40:26HELPS WOMEN WHO HAVE CRISIS
40:28PREGNANCIES AND NEIL THEY NEED
40:29THE -- FEEL THEY NEED THE
40:31SUPPORT TO CARRY ON WITH THE
40:34PREGNANCY.
40:34IN SHIFRA'S ARMS WAS NEVER ABOUT
40:36CHANGING THE LAWS.
40:37IT WAS ABOUT JUST HELPING WOMEN
40:40AND BABIES.
40:41AND I HAVE BEEN VERY COMFORTABLE
40:44WITH THAT APPROACH TO THE ISSUE,
40:48AND I HAVE BEEN A LITTLE
40:50DISAPPOINTED THAT IN THE WAKE OF
40:54THE DOBBS DECISION, THE LARGER
40:57PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT RATHER THAN
40:58STEPPING UP AND SAYING NOW IS
41:00OUR OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE MORE
41:04SUPPORT FOR WOMEN AND WOULD-BE
41:05MOMS TO MAKE THEIR LIVES EASIER,
41:07TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO
41:10CHOOSE LIFE, THE -- THE EFFORT
41:14SEEMED TO BE VERY PUNITIVE.
41:16AND TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT EVEN TO
41:20GET BIRTH CONTROL THROUGH THE
41:22MAIL.
41:23AND SO I'VE BEEN STRESSED THAT
41:27THAT HAS BEEN THE REACTION.
41:28>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, ONE
41:30OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU
41:31OBVIOUSLY IS THIS DECISION BY
41:32THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT.
41:34THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT ISSUED
41:35A DECISION LAST MONTH IN A PAIR
41:37OF WRONGFUL DEATH CASES WHICH
41:39WERE BROUGHT BY COUPLES WHO HAD
41:41FROZEN EMBRYOS WHO HAD BEEN
41:43ACCIDENTALLY DESTROYED AT A
41:45FERTILITY CLINIC.
41:46THE COURT RULED THAT THESE
41:48FROZEN EMBRYOS SHOULD BE
41:49CONSIDERED CHILDREN UNDER STATE
41:50LAW.
41:50YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO
41:52HAVE BEEN CRITICS OF THE DOBBS
41:54DECISION ARE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT
41:56MORE EXPANSIVE ABORTION RIGHTS.
41:58WE TOLD YOU SO, THIS IS EXACTLY
41:59WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
42:01AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOU FELT
42:03THAT WAY, TOO?
42:04OR WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN
42:05YOU HEARD THIS DECISION?
42:06>> WELL, I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND
42:09THE REACTION OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T
42:10FOLLOW THESE THINGS CLOSELY.
42:12YOU KNOW, THE REACTION WAS,
42:14SOUNDS LIKE NOW THEY'RE COMING
42:16AFTER IVF, RIGHT?
42:18AND IT FELT THAT WAY.
42:21IN REALITY, THE ALABAMA LAW AT
42:24ISSUE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE
42:25ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOBBS, IT
42:27WAS ON THE BOOKS.
42:29I GUESS IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE
42:32JUDGES OF THE ALABAMA SUPREME
42:33COURT FELT EMBOLDENED TO RULE AS
42:38THEY DID.
42:38BUT --
42:39>> THEY FELT THEY WOULDN'T BE
42:41OVERTURNED, THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.
42:42THEY FELT THE SUPREME COURT HAD
42:43OPENED THE DOOR AND THEREFORE
42:45THEY WERE GOING TO WALK THROUGH
42:46IT.
42:46AND I DO WANT TO NOTE FOR
42:48CLARITY THAT THE RULING DOES NOT
42:50BAN IN VITRO FERTILIZATION.
42:51>> CORRECT.
42:52>> BUT THE RESPONSE TO THAT IS
42:54THAT AT LEAST THREE CLINICS
42:56STOPPED TREATMENT IN THE WAKE OF
42:57THE RULING BEING CONCERNED THAT
43:00IT WOULD OPEN THE DOOR TO
43:02LEGISLATION THAT WOULD BASICALLY
43:03DESTROY THEM.
43:05>> THE REASON THE CLINIC STOPPED
43:07FUNCTIONING IS BECAUSE THEIR
43:09LEGAL LIABILITY AS A RESULT OF
43:11THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WOULD
43:13HAVE BEEN INSUPPORTABLE.
43:16IF A FERTILIZED EMBRYO IS A
43:21PERSON, THEN ANY FORM OF -- ANY
43:24FORM OF NEGLIGENCE ON THE PART
43:27OF THE CLINIC OR EVEN IF THE
43:29POWER GOES OUT OR, YOU KNOW, YOU
43:30CAN IMAGINE A MILLION SCENARIOS.
43:33SOMEONE DROPS A PIPET, THAT
43:38COULD BE A CAUSE FOR A WRONGFUL
43:40DEATH SUIT AND WOULD BE
43:42UNSUSTAINABLE TO PRACTICE IN
43:43VITRO FERTILIZATION AS IT IS
43:44USUALLY PRACTICED IN THE UNITED
43:45STATES UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.
43:48SO MY REACTION, I WAS MOSTLY
43:50INTERESTED TO SEE ALL OF THESE
43:51PEOPLE CAME OUT OF THE WOODWORK
43:54TO SAY, WELL, I HAD IVF, AND
43:56THESE ARE PRO-LIFE, REPUBLICAN
43:58WOMEN.
43:59I HAD IVF, AND I -- IT WAS A
44:01LIFESAVER FOR US, FOR MY HUSBAND
44:02AND ME, OR YOU KNOW, MY PARTNER
44:04AND ME.
44:05WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE CHILDREN WE
44:08NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO
44:09HAVE.
44:09AND WE REGARD THAT AS A PRO-LIFE
44:12STANCE.
44:13SO CERTAIN REPUBLICANS
44:15IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZING THAT
44:16THIS ISSUE HAS NOW DAMAGED THEM
44:18AT THE -- AT THE -- AT THE
44:21POLLING BOOTH IN CASE AFTER
44:23CASE.
44:23THEY WERE EAGER TO REJECT THE
44:27FINDING, TO EXPRESS THEIR
44:28SUPPORTS FOR IVF, TO SAY THAT
44:30THEY ARE COMPLETELY FOR IT.
44:33BUT OF COURSE THIS FLIES IN THE
44:34FACE OF OTHER THINGS THAT THE
44:35REPUBLICANS HAVE DONE IN THE
44:37RECENT PAST SUCH AS APPROVING OF
44:43160 MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF
44:45REPRESENTATIVES CO-SPONSORED
44:46LEGISLATION THAT WOULD DECLARE
44:47THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION.
44:51WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THEY
44:52OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T THOUGHT THIS
44:53THROUGH.
44:53IF LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION AND
44:56A FERTILIZED EMBRYO IS A HUMAN
44:59BEING DESERVING OF ALL THE
45:02PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTION,
45:03THEN YOU CANNOT PRACTICE IVF.
45:07IT'S INCOMPATIBLE BECAUSE THE
45:08RISK TO THE EMBRYO IS TOO GREAT.
45:11AND OF COURSE TO THE CLINICS.
45:14SO THERE WAS THAT REACTION, BUT
45:17I WAS ALSO -- I ALSO WANTED TO
45:20POINT OUT AS SOMEBODY WHO IS
45:23VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE WHOLE IVF
45:26PROCESS, NAMELY MY HUSBAND AND
45:27I, WE DID IT MANY YEARS AGO,
45:31THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO APPROACH
45:34IVF IN A CONSCIENTIOUS FASHION.
45:39THAT, YOU KNOW -- AND PEOPLE DO.
45:42PEOPLE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT
45:45HANDLING -- AN EMBRYO THAT CAN
45:48BE VERY SENSITIVE TO THE UNIQUE
45:50FOR OF WHAT YOU'VE CREATED
45:52THERE.
45:53THESE THINGS ARE NOT SO EASY AS
45:57A -- OR CLEAN AND BRIGHT AS A
46:00MORAL MATTER TO BE ABLE TO SAY
46:05THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, A COUPLE, A
46:08FRIEND OF MINE, THEIR FAMILY HAS
46:11A HISTORY OF TRISOME 18, A
46:14TERRIBLE GENETIC DISORDER.
46:16AND SO THEY DID IVF, AND THEY
46:19WERE ABLE TO SEGREGATE THE
46:22EMBRYOS THAT WERE CARRIERS OF
46:24THIS DISEASE AND ONLY TRANSFER
46:26THE HEALTHY EMBRYOS.
46:30DOES THAT VIOLATE THE MOST
46:31STRICT INTERPRETATION OF A LIFE
46:34BEGINS AT CONCEPTION IDEA OF
46:37LIFE?
46:37IT DOES.
46:38IT DOES.
46:38BUT IS IT IN THE END WORSE THAN
46:42MANY OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN
46:43THIS WORLD?
46:45NO.
46:45YOU KNOW, IN THE -- WEIGHING IN
46:47THE BALANCE IT'S NOT SO CLEAR TO
46:49ME THAT THE DOCTRINAIRE LIFE
46:53ALWAYS HAS TO BE PROTECTED NO
46:54MATTER WHAT POSITION IS REALLY
46:56THE RIGHT ONE.
46:57AND SOMETIMES I THINK OUR MORAL
46:59INTUITION IS A GOOD GUIDE, NOT
47:03JUST A BRIGHT LINE TEST.
47:04>> NOW THE QUESTION I'M ASKING
47:06YOU IS AS A CONSERVATIVE, I
47:08DON'T KNOW IF YOU STILL IDENTIFY
47:09AS A REPUBLICAN, I DON'T KNOW.
47:10>> I DON'T.
47:11>> EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED --
47:12>> I DON'T.
47:13>> THAT'S WHY ONE HAS TO ASK IS
47:15WHAT -- WHAT DO REPUBLICANS DO
47:17NOW?
47:18I MEAN, WHAT DO THEY DO NOW?
47:20IT SEEMS NOW THAT THE WHOLE
47:21QUESTION OF LIFE BEGINS AT
47:24CONCEPTION IS CAUSING SOME VERY
47:27SERIOUS DIFFICULTIES FOR PEOPLE
47:27THAT THEY CARE ABOUT, WHAT --
47:29WHAT IS THE MAINSTREAM POSITION?
47:31AND WHAT SHOULD --
47:32>> I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE
47:34GOING TO DO.
47:36I CAN ONLY SPEAKS FOR MYSELF AND
47:39OTHERS LIKE ME, THAT WE ARE
47:41STILL -- WE STILL REGARD
47:45ABORTION AS A TRAGEDY, AND WE
47:49STILL WISH THAT MANY, MANY FEWER
47:51WOMEN HAD TO RESORT TO THEM OR
47:53FELT THEY HAD TO.
47:55AND IF IT WERE UP TO ME, THERE
47:56WOULD BE A LOT MORE SUPPORT FOR
47:57WOMEN WITH CRISIS PREGNANCIES,
47:59THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE SOCIAL
48:03SUPPORT, FINANCIAL SUPPORT, THE
48:06WHOLE NINE YARDS, SO THAT WE
48:07COULD WELCOME MORE CHILDREN INTO
48:10THE WORLD.
48:12AND THAT IS MY CURRENT POSTURE.
48:17ALL OF THESE EFFORTS TO LIMIT
48:20HOW BIRTH CONTROL CAN BE
48:22PRESCRIBED THROUGH THE MAIL,
48:24WHETHER SOMETHING IS -- WHETHER
48:28YOU CAN ARREST AS TEXAS DID A
48:30WOMAN WHO YOU THINK IS HEADING
48:32OUT -- THEY HAD SOME CRAZY
48:34PROPOSAL THAT IF THEY -- IF SOME
48:36CITIZEN THOUGHT SOMEBODY WAS
48:37DRIVING YOU OUT OF STATE TO GET
48:39AN ABORTION, THEY COULD
48:41INTERFERE.
48:41ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE WAY
48:46BEYOND THE PALE, AND I THINK
48:48THAT WE SHOULD RETURN THE
48:50EMPHASIS TO MOTHERS AND BABIES
48:52AND TRYING TO HELP THEM.
48:54>> YOU KNOW, IVF IS NOT WITHOUT
48:55ETHICAL CHALLENGES, TOO.
48:57YOU WERE KIND ENOUGH TO SHARE
49:00YOU EXPERIENCED IVF YOURSELF AND
49:01THAT YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MADE
49:02THE DECISION THAT YOU WOULD
49:05IMPLANT ANY HEALTHY EMBRYO.
49:07IN OTHER SITUATIONS THAT HAS
49:09RESULTED IN PEOPLE CARRYING
49:11EIGHT PREGNANCIES.
49:14AND I DON'T THINK THE HUMAN BODY
49:16IS NOT REALLY BUILT FOR THAT.
49:17>> RIGHT.
49:18SO --
49:19>> TO HEAR ABOUT THE SUCCESSFUL
49:21OUTCOMES, WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT
49:22THE UNSUCCESSFUL OUTCOMES,
49:23RIGHT, NOW THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE
49:25OUTSIDE OF THE WORLD OF ASSISTED
49:27REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES HAVE
49:28BECOME PRIVY TO SOME OF THESE
49:30THINGS.
49:30WHERE DO WE GO WITH THIS?
49:32>> THERE'S BEEN -- THAT'S NOT
49:33SUCH A HARD ETHICAL QUESTION
49:35BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN
49:39ADVANCEMENT IN MEDICAL ETHICS
49:41AND MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY SINCE
49:42THOSE EARLY DAYS WHEN YOU DID
49:44HAVE A COUPLE OF VERY
49:46HIGH-PROFILE CASES OF WOMEN
49:47GIVING BIRTH TO MULTIPLE, YOU
49:50KNOW, FIVE, SEVEN, EIGHT KIDS --
49:52THERE WAS ONE WOMAN WHO GAVE
49:53BIRTH TO EIGHT.
49:54BUT NOW THAT IS NO LONGER DONE.
49:56THEY DON'T TRANSFER AT ONCE THAT
49:58MANY EMBRYOS.
49:58>> BUT THAT'S WHAT GIVES RISE TO
50:00THE QUESTION OF FERTILIZED
50:02EMBRYOS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE
50:04IMPLANTED WHICH SPEAKS TO YOUR
50:06POINT.
50:06WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHERE SHOULD
50:07WE GO WITH THIS NOW?
50:08YOU SEE MY POINT?
50:10THAT'S HOW THIS SITUATION AROSE
50:11IN ALABAMA BECAUSE THERE WERE
50:13EMBRYOS THAT HAD NOT BEEN
50:14IMPLANTED.
50:15>> OH, THEY WERE FROZEN --
50:16>> YES.
50:17>> RIGHT.
50:18BUT YOU CAN -- BY THE WAY, IT'S
50:21NOT SO EASY TO GET EMBRYOS,
50:24ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
50:26DEALING WITH INFERTILITY AND A
50:27LOT -- I GUESS SOME PEOPLE GET
50:29LOTS.
50:29BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THAT
50:31MANY.
50:32SO THEY GET, SAY THEY GET FIVE,
50:35GRAND TOTAL OF FIVE EMBRYOS
50:36AFTER SEVERAL CYCLES.
50:39THEN THE COUPLE CAN CHOOSE IN AN
50:42IDEAL SITUATION, THEY CAN CHOOSE
50:45TO TRANSFER -- I SAY TRANSFER,
50:47NOT IMPLANT BECAUSE THE
50:48IMPLANTATION IS UP TO THE
50:50EMBRYO, NOT UP TO THE DOCTORS.
50:53ALL THEY CAN DO IS TRANSFER IT
50:54AND HOPE FOR THE BEST.
50:56THEN THE COUPLE CAN CHOOSE TO
50:58TRANSFER, SAY, TWO EMBRYOS, AND
51:02THEN IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL IN A
51:03PREGNANCY, GREAT.
51:04IF THEY GET ONE OR POSSIBLY TWIN
51:07PREGNANCY, GREAT.
51:08AND THEN A FEW YEARS LATER THEY
51:09CAN COME BACK AND GET TWO MORE.
51:12SO IT ISN'T -- IT ISN'T CONTRARY
51:14TO THE IDEA OF TREATING THE
51:17EMBRYOS AS SPECIAL AND AS
51:19DESERVING OF A CHANCE AT LIFE
51:21THAT YOU DO IT IN A SEQUENTIAL
51:24FASHION.
51:25>> OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM DOESN'T
51:26SEEM REALLY EQUIPPED RIGHT NOW
51:29TO HANDLE NUANCE OR -- OR ON
51:33COMPROMISE, RIGHT?
51:34I GUESS I'M WONDERING -- I KNOW
51:36WHAT YOU WISH WOULD HAPPEN, BUT
51:38WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN
51:39REALISTICALLY?
51:40WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE GOING
51:42FORWARD?
51:43>> YOU ARE SO RIGHT THAT OUR
51:47ENTIRE CULTURE IS NOT JUST OUR
51:49POLITICAL SYSTEM BUT OUR WHOLE
51:51CULTURE IS BUILT TO RESIST
51:54COMPROMISE.
51:54COMPROMISE IS SEEN AS SURRENDER.
51:57COMPROMISE IS SEEN AS LACKING IN
52:00INTEGRITY, WHICH DOES, YOU KNOW,
52:02FAILS TO RECOGNIZE THAT OUR
52:04SYSTEM, WE HAVE A HUGE
52:07MULTICULTURAL MULTIETHNIC,
52:10MULTIREGIONAL COUNTRY.
52:11AND IN ORDER FOR IT TO SUCCEED,
52:13THERE HAS TO BE COMPROMISE.
52:14I'M VERY PESSIMISTIC ABOUT OTHER
52:17ASPECTS OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM,
52:19THE POPULISM VERSUS DEMOCRACY
52:25CONTEST.
52:25BUT I THINK ON THE SUBJECT OF
52:28ABORTION YOU HAVE SEEN A
52:31REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT IS
52:32BEGINNING TO GET THE MESSAGE
52:35FROM VOTERS AND IS KIND OF
52:38SCURRYING AWAY FROM THE MOST
52:40HARD-LINE POSITIONS THAT IT
52:42TOOK.
52:42SO I ACTUALLY THINK THEY'RE
52:45LISTENING, MICHELLE.
52:45I THINK THEY'RE LISTENING TO THE
52:47VOTERS HERE, AND YOU WILL SEE
52:50THIS IS AN AWKWARD TIME, THIS
52:52IS -- FOR SOME PEOPLE A TRAGIC
52:54TIME.
52:54I REALLY FEEL FOR THOSE WOMEN
52:57AND MEN, THE FATHERS AND MOTHERS
53:00IN ALABAMA WHO, FOR EXAMPLE,
53:03WERE JUST ON THE CUSP OF GETTING
53:05A TRANSFER.
53:06AND I KNOW HOW MUCH GOES INTO
53:08THAT AND HOW MANY MONTHS AND
53:10YEARS OF INJECTIONS AND TEARFUL
53:13WAITING, AND THEN TO BE TOLD
53:15WHEN EVERYTHING IS SET TO GO
53:16THAT IT HAS TO BE CANCELED
53:20BECAUSE OF A SUPREME COURT
53:21DECISION, IT'S -- IT'S AWFUL.
53:23IT'S HEARTBREAKING.
53:24>> A NUMBER OF NEW JOUZ -- NEWS
53:29OUTLETS HAVE APPROACHED ALABAMA
53:31TO SAY WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS,
53:32PARTICULARLY ON IVF.
53:33A LOT OF THEM ARE BEING, YOU
53:35KNOW, BEING QUICK TO SAY THEY
53:36ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT IVF.
53:38I WONDER IF PART OF THE REASON
53:39IS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO TEND
53:40TO -- THE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE IVF
53:42TEND TO BE MIDDLE CLASS.
53:43IT'S NOT CHEAP.
53:44I MEAN, MOST PEOPLE'S INSURANCE
53:47POLICIES DON'T COVER IT OR COVER
53:49ALL OF IT.
53:50SOME DO, BUT IT'S EXPENSIVE.
53:52AND I DON'T KNOW.
53:52IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT
53:53WONDER WHETHER SOME OF THIS HAS
53:55TO DO WITH CLASS?
53:56THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
53:57MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE USE AND
54:00WANT, AND SO THEREFORE THAT'S
54:01WHY THE SYSTEM IS RESPONSIVE TO
54:02IT IN WAYS THEY PERHAPS ARE NOT
54:04OTHER THINGS?
54:04>> WELL, LOOK, THE REPUBLICAN
54:07PARTY IS BECOMING THE PARTY OF
54:10THE WORKING CLASS.
54:12AND SO THEY ARE GOING TO BE MORE
54:15RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF
54:18WORKING PEOPLE THAN THEY USED TO
54:19BE IN THE PAST.
54:21I MEAN, LOOK, FOR MANY, MANY
54:23YEARS, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS
54:26PRETTY MUCH CO-TERMNOUS WITH THE
54:28"WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL
54:30PAGE.
54:30AND THAT'S JUST NO LONGER TRUE.
54:33SO YEAH, THE CLASS THING MAY
54:36PLAY INTO THIS.
54:36>> YOU SAID THAT YOU HOPED THAT
54:39-- YOU THINK THAT A MORE NUANCED
54:41OR SORT OF -- I DON'T KNOW YOU
54:44USED BETTER LANGUAGE THAN I AM,
54:46BALANCED POSITION, IS SORTS OF
54:47WE'RE HEADING TOWARD IT.
54:49WHEN?
54:50>> WELL, I -- MAYBE A FEW MORE
54:55ELECTION CYCLES, WHERE THE
54:59MESSAGE GETS THROUGH.
54:59WELL ACTUALLY, IN THE CASE OF
55:01ALABAMA, WE'RE SEEING IT
55:04ALREADY.
55:04THE ALABAMA LEGISLATURE IS
55:06RUSHING TO ENACT LEGISLATION TO
55:08MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IVF IS
55:16EXEMPTED FROM THE EXTRAUTERINE
55:18CHILD THEY CALLED IT.
55:19SO THEY ARE ACTING WITH
55:23DISPATCH, AND I THINK IF THERE'S
55:25ANOTHER ELECTION CYCLE WHERE
55:26ABORTION IS PERCEIVED TO BENEFIT
55:29DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS WILL
55:30SWITCH RAPIDLY.
55:32>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING
55:33TO US ONCE AGAIN.
55:34>> MY PLEASURE.
55:35>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
55:37TONIGHT.
55:37IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:38COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY
55:40NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR
55:41NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:47THANKS FOR WATCHING.
55:49GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.