Reaction to Blackburn Rovers embarrassment as Steve Davison steps down
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 Hello, welcome to the podcast.
00:20 My name is James Copley joined by my colleague Phil.
00:23 Phil, how you doing?
00:23 >> Yes, well, not bad, thank you.
00:27 Obviously, yesterday wasn't ideal, but yeah.
00:30 By the way, I can't get my earphones to work, so apologies to anyone listening if
00:33 my audio is a little echoey, but we will crack on.
00:37 >> There are many perks to this job, but one of the downsides is having to pick
00:41 the pieces once again of a 5-1 loss at home to Blackburn Rovers.
00:45 We did it yesterday in the on the whistle video, which is on YouTube.
00:50 We're gonna do it again now.
00:51 Have you any extra thoughts to add, Phil?
00:55 Have you managed to think about the game in any more detail because I'm struggling
00:58 with it?
00:59 >> No, I suppose the initial, I guess, anger fades a little bit, doesn't it?
01:07 And you sort of look at the game through a slightly different lens.
01:11 But my fundamental thoughts haven't really changed too much.
01:14 As we said yesterday, the Sunland started okay.
01:18 Well, that's probably a little bit harsh.
01:19 They started fairly well, albeit without creating too many chances.
01:24 But I just thought, as we said yesterday, there was two factors to it for me.
01:29 One was that all the things we've talked about that have gone wrong in previous
01:32 months are on show.
01:33 It's not the first time we've seen a team counter attack way too easily
01:38 against the Sunland side that lacks that Corey Evans figure, if you like,
01:42 that lacks that balance in midfield.
01:43 I think they're too easy to play against at home.
01:46 It's too easy to almost telegraph what the opposition are gonna do,
01:49 which is to force them to almost overplay, over commit in attacking areas and
01:53 then just flood them on the break.
01:55 The other thing I would say is yesterday was the first time in a long,
01:59 long time, certainly with this squad of players,
02:01 I don't think I've said anything I've ever said, where I felt like, to me,
02:04 it seemed like the opposition wanted it a bit more or
02:06 certainly had a far greater intensity.
02:09 So that was obviously a disappointing aspect of it.
02:11 But I think probably the one thing that I thought a little bit more about yesterday
02:16 was just the almost the fragility of things at the moment in terms of,
02:21 I hope the club's ownership understand how people are feeling at the moment
02:27 in terms of, while I think people have really enjoyed most of the journey up
02:32 until this point and have really enjoyed watching this young team.
02:35 I hope they understand the scale of the apathy that's crept in over the last few
02:41 months and also the concern with where the team's heading.
02:44 Because sometimes I wonder if that's the case.
02:48 And I think yesterday, the sparse stadium of light,
02:53 all the empty seats at the end, totally understandable.
02:56 I can't say I would have been there if I'd had a ticket.
03:00 I hope that's sort of ringing a few alarm bells and
03:03 it's starting to get through what the scale of the sort of discontent rightly so
03:08 is because it's been pretty joyless since Christmas.
03:11 And I don't think that's been dramatic or unfair.
03:17 I think it's been a fairly joyless experience and
03:21 it's not sustainable for that to go on for someone who's a championship club.
03:26 So, yeah, that's probably more my feeling about why it went wrong yesterday is
03:30 pretty much the same, but I guess I've more just reflected on the potential
03:35 significance of it really and the result within the context of what's happened in
03:39 the last few months.
03:40 Just on that wider point, Phil, in terms of how the football club is being run,
03:47 the strategy, the football strategy, which we all know,
03:50 we're all familiar by now with the ins and outs of the model.
03:54 The thing that concerns me is that for the past 18 months,
03:59 we have been pushing for a little bit of flexibility in this model.
04:04 But at every turn, at every opportunity, Sunderland appeared to have doubled down.
04:07 Are they gonna double down again?
04:09 Surely they can't.
04:10 I mean, it's a big summer window coming up Sunderland without a head coach.
04:14 There's that decision to be made.
04:16 For a club that is wanting to be sustainable and
04:20 stable under two guys owning it and have owned it by and large for about two years,
04:26 there's still a lot of instability at the football club as well, which is disappointing.
04:30 >> Yeah, and I do think it's a factor in terms of what happened yesterday in that
04:35 one thing, we always do see stuff through the Sunderland glasses, if you like,
04:40 Sunderland lens, that's what I'm trying to say.
04:43 Obviously, Blackburn are fighting for their lives.
04:45 There's something very tangible on the line.
04:47 And I think there is inevitably going to be a drop off when you've got
04:52 somebody in charge who realistically now we all probably know isn't gonna be in
04:55 charge next season.
04:57 You're not going up, you're not going down.
04:59 I suppose there is an element of maybe Blackburn are always gonna have that extra
05:04 yard if you like because of the circumstances that they're in.
05:06 But I think that I agree with you and I think where a lot of the apathy at the
05:11 moment comes from and a lot of the concern is that there hasn't really,
05:15 as of yet, been a huge amount in the way of accountability or
05:20 acknowledgement of how badly things have gone wrong.
05:22 And because of that, we have very little to point us in the direction that things
05:27 are gonna change this summer and that's a huge factor at the moment.
05:30 I wrote a column off the back of the support of collective minutes last week
05:34 about this and we were all kind of combing through those minutes,
05:38 looking for indications that, yeah, we can get that right.
05:42 Yeah, we're gonna do this bit differently.
05:45 And there was some aspects of it,
05:48 recognition that the style of play under Michael Bale had sort of really gone
05:52 backwards and there were little crumbs of it.
05:55 But there wasn't really a sort of wholehearted, yeah,
05:58 some of what we're doing hasn't worked and we need to rethink.
06:01 And I think that's where a huge amount of the apathy and
06:07 concern at the moment comes from.
06:08 And stability is an interesting word because you could argue that in some
06:12 aspects, there is relative stability.
06:15 The sporting director is now being in charge for kind of a few years and
06:19 that's the most influential football figure.
06:21 I'm aware some people will be listening to that saying, well,
06:24 maybe that's not a good thing.
06:25 But you get my point, there is a learning stability.
06:28 And sometimes in the bigger picture, you do see some of the results of that.
06:32 The academy is clearly in a better place and
06:34 more players are deciding to stay because they can see a stability and
06:38 that means there's a pathway, etc, etc.
06:40 So it's not about sort of being overly over the top about it.
06:46 But I think what's sort of undeniable is that this season has unraveled
06:51 in a way that it absolutely did not need to.
06:54 It just did not need to go this way.
06:56 There were issues in the team through the first half of the season.
07:00 I'm not trying to rewrite history and
07:02 say the team's in an amazing place when Tony Mowbray left.
07:05 But it didn't have to unravel as it did either in the managerial decisions or
07:09 that January window, which was there to try and make a few changes.
07:14 And obviously the positive is that you can look at it and say, well,
07:17 there's still a lot of talent in the squad.
07:18 There's still a lot to sort of be positive about moving forward.
07:21 Good head coach appointments, some good sign-ins.
07:24 The things can change quickly and they can.
07:27 But obviously at the moment, what we don't really have is any sense from
07:30 the club's ownership specifically, but that's what they're going to do.
07:34 That they're going to make those necessary changes and
07:37 build a bit more depth in the squad.
07:39 Maybe show a bit more flexibility in the transfer market.
07:42 So, yeah, I think it's like, I think yesterday just brought home to me really
07:45 that we're a bit of a crossroads here, I think, in terms of this project and
07:50 the ownership and where things have gone.
07:53 And I do think, yeah, this summer's like a big moment, I think.
07:58 If a supporter came to me and said, I don't really understand where this is going,
08:02 I'm concerned that they don't seem to grasp how we feel and what's gone wrong
08:07 and that they're going to change it.
08:08 I don't think there's a lot where we can say, well, actually, that's wrong.
08:12 This is what they're going to do or they've said this or whatever.
08:15 So, it feels like quite an uncertain time at the moment, I would say.
08:20 I was talking to Scott Wilson, our colleague from the Northern Echo,
08:23 a couple of weeks back, and he said something that stuck with us.
08:27 He said winning football matches can sort of cover a multitude of sins up.
08:31 I don't know whether he's nicked that from somebody else, but I'm crediting it to Scott.
08:34 Scott has not come up with that, like, no.
08:38 Anyway, my point is that I've no doubt if some of the women in football games,
08:45 the mood would be a little bit better.
08:47 However, it's not just the football on the pitch that's irking people as well, isn't it?
08:52 I mean, we've been over this ground a lot, but the commercial side,
08:55 the Black Cats bar debacle, when you lose 5-1, even on social media,
08:59 pictures of the flag at the Stadium of Light, which is pretty much ripped in two on a pole.
09:04 It has been like that for years.
09:06 I know Sunderland have announced this sort of investment into the Stadium of Light,
09:11 and that is objectively good.
09:13 I think we said that yesterday, but there are just a lot of quite major issues, really,
09:18 that surround and feed into this narrative that, actually, perhaps,
09:24 I don't want to say that they don't care or accuse people of that,
09:26 but maybe, actually, they're not doing a good job of running the club.
09:30 I think it's unfortunate because, as you mentioned, the academy,
09:33 and we mentioned it yesterday, I think that is an aspect of the club which is well run,
09:38 and we always wanted that to be well run after the era that preceded it.
09:42 So, it's tough at the moment because it just feels like everything's under the microscope,
09:48 but rightly so, in a way, as well.
09:51 I think it's fair to say that when the ownership change happened,
09:57 there was a huge injection of energy on and off the pitch.
10:00 And general strategy.
10:02 Yeah, and I do think it's fair to say that that doesn't feel like it's been sustained over the last year.
10:08 And you raise a relevant point in terms of, if Sunderland had kept winning games,
10:12 we'd be talking very differently.
10:14 But, also, there's a reason why they haven't kept winning games.
10:16 Do you know what I mean?
10:17 It's not as if the results have just randomly changed.
10:20 They had a team that...
10:23 And I go back to this point all the time.
10:25 People are probably sick of me saying it, but we have to do a podcast every week,
10:28 and it's still true.
10:30 But a data-evidence-led operation that had a team that statistically was one of the best performing in the championship,
10:38 then changed its manager and watched the team get progressively worse,
10:42 and didn't do the one thing that the statistics were saying they needed to do,
10:46 which was find somebody to convert the chances.
10:49 Do you know what I mean?
10:50 You're kind of sitting from a distance going, "Well, that doesn't add up to me."
10:53 And for a while, I don't think the off-field operation has ever really been where it needs to be.
10:59 But I think there was an energy when they first came in,
11:03 and you could point to it and say, "Well, look, we understand just how far back this whole thing was coming from.
11:08 We understand the state the club was in, how scarce the operational aspect of things were."
11:14 And so, there was a level of tolerance, I think, or at least understanding at that point.
11:19 But it does feel like over the last year that that energy, that strategy,
11:24 it's been much harder to trace the thread, if you like, in terms of the decisions that have been made.
11:30 And as you said there, obviously, in terms of the stadium,
11:33 there have been some announcements to address some of it and some investments coming in.
11:37 And obviously, that's something we should mention,
11:40 because clearly there is some element of recognition behind the scenes on that.
11:44 But yeah, this feels like it's been a fairly murrelled answer.
11:48 But I can see what you're saying.
11:49 It feels like the sort of energy and intensity and the drive and the vision,
11:54 that even when things, bad decisions were made or something got a few run of results or something,
11:58 you could point to and say, "Well, OK, I feel like we're going through a bit of pain at the moment,
12:02 but I can understand the direction."
12:04 At the moment, it's a little bit like you're struggling.
12:07 I think there's a little bit of mistrust which has developed as well,
12:12 whether it's from the shareholding issue, the Black Cats bar debacle,
12:16 not signing a striker for so long, all of that feeds into it as well.
12:20 Yeah, totally. And I guess that's what I mean in terms of, again,
12:25 the difference between now and at the start.
12:27 And obviously, there's loads of factors in that, isn't there?
12:30 Stuff that takes a long time, sort of like the shareholding stuff, you know?
12:37 It's not easy to get on.
12:39 Yeah, all that sort of stuff.
12:41 So, yeah, I do feel like, and also I feel as if, you know, those support minutes,
12:48 the Black Cats bar stuff was a bit like, there's not really a huge amount of accountability there.
12:54 And by the way, I'm not saying like, "Oh, they should have said,
12:56 'This person made this mistake and we've done this.'
12:58 I totally understand that's not going to happen."
12:59 Maybe all a little bit better.
13:01 Also, the Black Cats bar was like the most high-profile aspect of a lot of decisions
13:06 around that game and stuff that left fans feeling a bit alienated.
13:09 And, you know, there was no real accountability for that, was there,
13:13 or recognition of that.
13:14 So, I do just think it's all, yeah, I do think there's a distance that's developed now
13:20 between probably the fan base and the club.
13:23 Like, I don't think that's unfair or like, you know, a hyperbolic comment.
13:28 Like, I think that's fair.
13:28 I think there's a distance that's developed now that's going to have to be rebuilt over the summer.
13:34 And part of that's in words and obviously part of it far more significantly is in actions.
13:40 - You talk about the distance between sort of the fan base and the ownership of the club.
13:45 I completely get that, but it almost seems like Magdodds and his playing staff
13:49 are caught in the middle of that slightly.
13:51 The first thing I will say is that yesterday is completely on the players and Magdodds.
13:55 You do have to say that we said it after the game as well.
14:00 However, we talk about empowering youth a lot at Sunderland
14:04 and within the club and all of that sort of stuff.
14:06 But you do have to be careful not to hang people out to dry a little bit as well.
14:09 And I just wonder, you know, Magdodds and some of the players might be sitting there thinking like,
14:14 "Blimey, we're all really young. We've not had much help.
14:17 It's been a rollercoaster of a season."
14:19 And the parameters can be twisted too far sideways.
14:24 And you don't really want to ruin some of these players to sort of stunt their development by overexposing them.
14:31 Just thinking of someone like Ekwer Bellingham could have used a rest.
14:35 You know, Magdodds, is this really the best thing for his development?
14:39 He's going through a really tough time at the moment and long, winless runs.
14:43 And, you know, as I say, yesterday was absolutely all on them.
14:48 But I just can't help but feel for them on a human level, to be honest.
14:51 People might disagree with me on that, but I just feel like they're the ones caught in the middle
14:56 with decisions that have come from above, essentially.
14:59 Yeah, I definitely think that, specifically in the case of the players as well,
15:03 where I'm a bit like, you know, it's kind of wrong to talk about individuals after a season.
15:10 It's just a collective thing.
15:11 But it was a point we made on the Whistle video over on YouTube.
15:16 And Ekwer's a good example where Ekwer didn't play very well yesterday.
15:20 I don't think that's unfair.
15:21 I think that's just a statement of how the game went.
15:25 But it's like, I feel like I've watched quite a bit of Pierre Ekwer now,
15:28 and I don't think he's going to be like a holding midfielder.
15:32 I just don't think it suits his skill set from what I've seen of him.
15:36 I think he's a really talented player.
15:38 I think he's got a lovely passing range.
15:39 I think he's got a great left foot.
15:41 I think he's going to be a good player.
15:42 And I just get frustrated because I'm like, how many times do we have to watch these games,
15:47 you know, to see that this is just not his game?
15:50 And so that's where I totally agree with you and sympathise with Dodds to an extent as well,
15:55 because fundamentally, like, Dodds is facing the same issues in the same key areas of the pitch
16:01 that his two predecessors faced, and arguably because of the injuries and suspensions,
16:05 at times he's had it even worse than the two.
16:07 So there is a sympathy there that ultimately, while I think we're right to say that, like,
16:12 yesterday had a different context because it was just so poor and that there is a level of
16:17 accountability on the players and coaching staff for that, you know, ultimately,
16:21 the threads of why it happened are ones that we've been talking about for weeks, really.
16:26 You could say it was a performance that came from nowhere because they played well against
16:29 Cardiff a few days earlier, and I get that argument.
16:31 But it's not like any of us were sort of like absolutely stunned.
16:35 How on earth have they managed to lose a game like that and so heavily?
16:38 Because we have seen the signs at times.
16:42 Obviously, you know, the injuries and suspensions have been a factor in why this team has been
16:47 so young for about a month.
16:49 And I think even Dodds has said publicly, look, like, we don't celebrate the team being
16:55 this young and this inexperienced.
16:57 Like, this is not the idea.
17:00 But obviously, the reason why it's gone that way is because of the transfer changes that
17:04 have been made over the last two windows have changed the depth of the squad and it's brought
17:07 the average age down even further.
17:08 So...
17:09 And even when everybody is fit, it's still a very, very young team.
17:13 Yeah, exactly.
17:14 And what it means then is that you only take one or two of your senior players to get an
17:18 injury or whatever, and then you are left with a young team.
17:21 So I suppose that's one thing I would say, which I mentioned in a column that I wrote
17:25 last week that I alluded to earlier, is that obviously we have seen some subtle public
17:30 comments, especially from Dodds, that acknowledge that things need to change a little bit.
17:35 And he has kind of said, look, the depth we've seen, it's not where it needs to be.
17:39 We're not supposed to be this young.
17:41 This isn't like good.
17:42 We are, you know, almost saying, yeah, we understand that we're not going to get promoted
17:46 with a team this young and this inexperienced, but obviously, you know, it's not happened
17:51 for no reason.
17:52 There's been some terrible luck involved in terms of the injuries, but it's something
17:56 that we could have seen coming for a while as well.
17:58 So yeah, it's like with everything, isn't it?
18:01 Like yesterday, again, slightly different because it's just a level that you need to
18:05 hit really that didn't happen.
18:07 But fundamentally, it's because of a series of decisions that we made really over pretty
18:13 much, I guess, from the end of the Luton game last year.
18:17 Indeed, the other big news story today coming out of Sunderland was that the Chief Operating
18:22 Officer, Steve Davison, is set to step down at the end of this season.
18:27 I'll give the floor to you in a second, Phil, but I have really mixed feelings about this.
18:30 Obviously, it's an area of the club that hasn't performed too well.
18:33 Obviously, he will have to take some responsibility for that, there's no doubt.
18:38 But he's working under parameters set by ownership.
18:41 I also really feel for him in a sense that I feel like everything goes wrong at Steve
18:46 Davison's fault when it might not necessarily have been.
18:50 He's from Sunderland, he's a local person.
18:53 I know that doesn't excuse any sort of sins, but just from his point of view and how he
18:58 feels personally, this must have been an extremely hard period for him.
19:02 Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
19:04 Because, you know, the club and league won and progressed Sunderland.
19:09 Yeah, I mean, I've got a lot of mixed thoughts on this.
19:13 I think that one thing I would say is that there's some really important stuff that Steve's
19:20 done, in my opinion.
19:22 I accept that the football club exists to produce a first team that fans can enjoy going
19:30 watching. But I do think some of the...
19:32 I feel like the club is sort of connected with the city again, in a way, in terms of
19:36 its key stakeholders.
19:38 The concerts coming back is massive for the local economy.
19:42 I don't think we should underestimate and we should really praise Steve for his work
19:47 that he did in getting Sunderland's women back into the championship and building them,
19:51 helping to build a platform where they could theoretically be a Super League team in the
19:55 next few years.
19:56 I think that's a massive achievement and a big part of his legacy.
20:01 So what I also think is that very clearly there are aspects of the off-field operation
20:06 which have not been up to scratch for a prolonged period.
20:10 And I do think this change has been inevitable for a while because ultimately, as the chief
20:13 operating officer, Davison is the most high profile off-field figure, other than, of course,
20:19 the actual owners themselves.
20:21 And I don't think it's sustainable, really, given the issues that Sunderland have had
20:24 over the last 18 months and off the back of the Newcastle United game.
20:28 I think everyone's kind of felt that this was coming.
20:30 I suspect Steve probably has as well, to be honest.
20:33 And that's certainly not saying that the Newcastle debacle was Steve's fault.
20:36 I'm just saying I feel like there's an element of inevitability.
20:39 But all I can do is sort of give my impression from the time I spend around the club and
20:44 the people I speak to.
20:47 Not once has anyone said or suggested to me that they think that the issue has been Steve
20:52 and that if Steve goes, things will get better.
20:54 There's obviously things that haven't been good enough.
20:57 But all I ever hear, really, from people I speak to is that Steve's a Sunderland fan
21:03 of real integrity, real professionalism, who's kept his counsel and done his best in, at
21:09 times, really trying circumstances.
21:12 I pass that on in good faith, if you like, my understanding of what he's like to work
21:17 with and what he's been behind the scenes.
21:20 If things get better off the field, I don't think it'll be because Steve's gone.
21:24 I think it'll be because there'll be a sustained period of investment from the very top of
21:28 the club and hopefully that happens.
21:33 If that doesn't happen, then things won't get better just because Steve's gone, if that
21:37 makes sense.
21:38 So, while I do think it's probably best for all parties, because I think it was inevitable
21:41 and at some point there does need to be some change and you have to accept that, I would
21:47 challenge any perception that this is the thing that makes Sunderland's off-field operation
21:51 immediately better.
21:54 But that needs to come from a little bit higher and hopefully the stadium changes as the start
21:59 of that process and we'll look back in a year's time, two years' time and say that it's in
22:03 a much, much better place.
22:04 But I don't see this as the waving of the magic wand, if you like.
22:10 I think it's a lot more structural than that and it's going to run a lot deeper than that,
22:15 if that makes sense.
22:17 It's interesting you mention the talk and the narrative surrounding investment and that
22:22 really is the key thing here, isn't it?
22:24 When we talk about off-field, Steve Davison's Stadium of Light, Academy of Light, but then
22:28 when we talk about the on-field stuff as well, investment in the playing squad, not that
22:32 I'm accusing Sunderland of not having invested in the playing squad, but there's all these
22:36 different factors that come into it, not having paid compensation for a head coach that they
22:42 really would have liked at any point.
22:45 So there's all that isn't the filling and it does feel like the proof is now in the
22:49 pudding and in terms of a great deal of Sunderland fans now think that it comes down, the bottom
22:55 line is money essentially and I can completely understand that.
22:59 Yeah, and it is partially that, but it's also not totally that because you also have to
23:03 acknowledge that specifically on the pitch, I'm just going round here, not off the pitch,
23:07 Sunderland overperformed their wage bill last year.
23:13 They got promoted from League One with a wage bill that was lower than a lot of the seasons
23:17 where they didn't get promoted from League One.
23:19 So especially on the pitch, money is obviously only one part of the story and that goes back
23:23 to what I was saying before about some of the decision making that's felt quite contradictory
23:28 to not just what we've seen in previous years, but also how they want to operate and I go
23:33 back to the Mulberry decision as part of that, which makes no real sense in terms of a manager
23:39 who was clearly overperforming his wage budget both last season and I suspect this season
23:43 as well.
23:44 Now then, if you immediately bring in someone who makes kind of sense from what you said
23:48 you're going to do and immediately starts to improve those rough edges of the team and
23:52 maintains the good stuff that we're doing, then you go, "All right, fair enough, that's
23:55 another good strategic decision."
23:58 That's obviously not what happens.
23:59 So I do think off the pitch there is just an obvious need for some TLC, which is a financial
24:04 thing and Stadium obviously is the most obvious part of that.
24:09 Initially we should also, I guess, say that most of the investment went into the Academy
24:13 of Light, which is something that we don't see as much.
24:16 So there was undoubtedly a huge amount of investment into the Academy of Light in the
24:20 first sort of 18 months of the ownership's tenure.
24:23 A lot of the Academy was sort of rebuilt, upgraded.
24:28 That was because the biggest priority was seen to get football on the side right and
24:32 get the club out of League One, which is probably largely right.
24:35 But obviously it now needs to be followed up by catching up and that obviously hasn't
24:39 happened at anywhere near the pace that needs to have happened.
24:44 So yeah, more off the pitch, I think the investment thing on the pitch obviously is also true
24:49 in terms of if you need to get that hedge coach who's going to cost money, then you
24:54 have to do it.
24:55 If you need to push a little bit further to get that striker who's going to do the job,
25:01 you know, then in the long run that can be a financially excellent decision if you end
25:05 up going to get promoted, doesn't it?
25:06 Because then you're unlocking a level of kind of investment that is completely off
25:11 the scale really.
25:12 So yeah, investment is a big part of it, especially off the pitch.
25:17 That is definitely how I would see it.
25:21 On the pitch, I would say it's partially that, but a little bit more to it than that as well.
25:26 Yeah, and I think you're dead right.
25:28 I think TLC does need to be shown to things that fans can see.
25:34 I think a football club should be a beacon of pride, especially in the north-east of
25:39 England in Sunderland as well.
25:41 So yeah, anyway, we shall leave it there.
25:43 God Sunderland could do with a win against Bristol City this Saturday.
25:47 Join us over on the Sunderland Echo website for all of the pre-match build-up.
25:51 There'll be a pre-match podcast as well.
25:53 Phil's columns and all of the latest injury news.
25:57 Thank you once again for listening to the Raw podcast.
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