Child rape: the end of silence ? French national TV doc on pedo satanic rings
The report mentions acts of pedophile rape of which a brother and a sister, referred to in the report under the pseudonyms of Pierre (born in 1989) and Marie (born in 1986), were victims, and who claim that their father and others adults allegedly raped them on various occasions during sectarian ceremonies. The report mentions the existence of a pedophile network which would benefit from protection within the governing bodies of justice and French politics (thesis developed in the report) but also expresses doubts from the magistrates in charge of the case on the reality of the allegations.
Transcript
00:00:07a special program from the national editorial staff
00:00:17child rape: the end of silence?
00:00:23presented by Elise Lucet
00:00:30Madam, Sir, good evening,
00:00:33what is the value of a child's word in the face of the French judicial system?
00:00:37what is his chance of being heard when confronted with acts of sexual violence?
00:00:42Are all the conditions met for him to be able to unload this burden?
00:00:47what Pierre, Marie and Sylvie say about their early childhood resembles a nightmare,
00:00:54what they experienced afterwards resembles this time a denial
00:00:56of suffering,
00:00:59why has the justice system not heard them?
00:01:01at least not as they would have liked
00:01:03How did the police carry out their investigation?
00:01:06for a year and a half our team patiently reconstructed
00:01:10the journey and the drama of her children and tried to understand why
00:01:16and how the law of silence had gradually regained its rights
00:01:20The investigation is signed by Pascal Justice Stéphane Taponier Cécile Toulec
00:01:23We then meet for a debate.
00:01:26I agree that my testimony and that of my brother be shown on television.
00:01:32But with my face hidden so that I am not embarrassed in relation to my friends
00:01:37I find that the rape of children must be recognized
00:01:40I want people to know that it exists
00:01:43Marie, that is what we named her
00:01:45wrote this letter of her own will
00:01:49Marie and her brother who we will call Pierre
00:01:52claim that their father and other adults allegedly raped and terrorized them
00:01:57during strange ceremonies
00:02:01Their story Pierre and Marie have already told it about twenty times
00:02:04to the police and to the judge, it is therefore a story repeated many times constructed and rich in details
00:02:12that the children gave us
00:02:15to collect the testimony of Little Pierre and his sister;
00:02:18we met them around fifteen times in one year.
00:02:21Of the two children c It's especially the eldest Marie who tells and draws
00:02:25Here she tells us about her father and the places where he would have taken them
00:02:30there was a place in Paris of which he was the leader so he said that he was a great mage
00:02:36and that his name was bougnoubour and in this place well they had big white robes
00:02:44with golden edges then they said prayers they raped the children he scared them
00:02:53and then there were several other people also who raped us he put us to sleep with some kind of gruel
00:03:01then he also tied us to tables and then he hit us
00:03:12or he put needles near our eyes to make us believe that he wanted to put our eyes out.
00:03:21Did he really hurt you? Did they hit you?
00:03:27yes they were hitting us
00:03:31what did you draw for us?
00:03:36Pierre cries and sobs
00:03:45They were monsters
00:03:52It was horrible
00:03:56they raped me
00:04:00They raped you? what is raped Pierre?
00:04:05It's touching the willy
00:04:17but I was 6 years old I didn't yet understand what they were doing It
00:04:22all started in August 1994
00:04:25Pierre and Marie's parents separated
00:04:31Pierre was 5 years old and Marie was 8 years old
00:04:34from then on the children lived with their mother and went to their father's house one weekend,
00:04:42according to them, it was at this time that this abuse began
00:04:45but they did not talk about it yet and their mother said she did not suspect anything
00:04:50when the children returned my Pierre, who is still young at the time
00:04:58he was 6 years old he was like a baby he spoke like a toddler and he crawled on the ground
00:05:07he no longer knew how to stand he was completely slumped over
00:05:10and then Marie the first thing she did when she came home
00:05:13was she goes to wash herself, she takes a bath
00:05:17afterwards she is very angry with us, she locks herself away; she isolates herself in her room
00:05:20she also cries a lot
00:05:23then there are a lot of nightmares and my son was complaining
00:05:28I really didn't... I didn't understand anything at that moment
00:05:35when I called their father about their asked why
00:05:38the children were in this state he told me that it was due to the separation
00:05:42and the fact that we were going through a divorce
00:05:45and that I shouldn't worry, that it really was
00:05:49completely common for these children to be disturbed in situations of this type,
00:05:52something that I understood not because it wasn't the atmosphere that was at home
00:05:57I was willing to admit it
00:05:58when you see the bruises on your children's bodies I imagine that the first thing
00:06:01is that you ask them, what what happened to them? the children
00:06:04When I asked them they told me that they had fallen, that they were hit
00:06:11or things of that order, they don't tell me at all that they were hit
00:06:15on January 8, 96
00:06:18the mother decides to do observing the hematomas on the bodies of the two children by a doctor
00:06:24she no longer believes in falls but rather in blows
00:06:28the father she says was already violent with the children before their divorce
00:06:32it happened like that suddenly without being able to predicting
00:06:37it was, I would say, very very primary, very brutal reactions
00:06:41, like that suddenly he would come out of his control and then he would start screaming
00:06:49and hit the children on the head. He humiliated them too, especially Marie,
00:06:56what was he doing to humiliate her?
00:07:00he made her kneel in front of him
00:07:03he was very rude towards her and then he hit her
00:07:09For 3 months Marie categorically refuses to return to her father
00:07:14without saying why, while Pierre continues to go alone
00:07:21March 96 Marie begins to speak she says that Pierre is in danger
00:07:27that his father does with his little brother as one does with a woman
00:07:32alerted by the mother the gendarmes will look for Pierre at the father's home
00:07:38and have medical examinations carried out but only 3 months after the fact
00:07:42of the examinations which will not reveal anything
00:07:49but the children present psychological and physical disorders
00:07:53so the mother takes them to a general practitioner
00:07:58Doctor Baudau remembers Marie's suffering
00:08:03I see her brought by her mother
00:08:07she presents headaches as well as abdominal pain
00:08:14the clinical examination is strictly normal, that is to say that there is no visual disturbance which could cause
00:08:18headaches, there are no digestive problems,
00:08:21the abdomen is very supple there is absolutely no point of appeal
00:08:24there was no organic lesion - was it somatizing? she was somatizing, quite
00:08:30physically, it seems that there may have been penetrations several months later, this is not necessarily detectable?
00:08:37not necessarily detectable, an anal region is a flexible region despite everything so if
00:08:44it may not be verified, it may not be verified
00:08:50The children now both refuse to go to their father who continues to ask for them,
00:08:54their mother then does regularly observing their refusal by the gendarmes
00:08:58now the children confide but very gradually
00:09:02they first speak of beatings then of touching, finally of rape
00:09:07in fact as I learned through the words of my children in a very progressive way
00:09:13that was each time, at each stage, a shock but at each stage also I had hope
00:09:21that things had not gone as far as we understood from what they had been telling us
00:09:25despite everything for several months they had in a way prepared the ground because
00:09:29I believe that they were very, very afraid first of all that no one would believe them
00:09:33and then also they were afraid because they had been forbidden to speak, they were threatened with death
00:09:38if today 'Today this fear has faded, the pain is still present,
00:09:45especially when they talk about the most serious events that they would have witnessed:
00:10:11they killed them,
00:10:15they killed the children?
00:10:21how do you know that?
00:10:23from what I saw [cries]
00:10:32They were little children who were
00:10:37somewhat Arab children and things like that
00:10:40then they cut off their heads
00:10:54when you saw that they cut off a child's head, it was was the truth?
00:10:58Was it happening in front of you or could it have been a film?
00:11:01no it was for real
00:11:03because the child was screaming all the time
00:11:10and then we would faint, they told us they were going to cut off our heads too
00:11:16so they put us in the same way, on that, it was full of blood,
00:11:20and afterwards we were very scared and we thought we were dead.
00:11:25Why did these people do that?
00:11:28I don't know, because they are bad, they are crazy
00:11:32I don't know why they did that they are bad we didn't do anything we were children
00:11:43from July 96 from the first revelations of Mary
00:11:48the Mother entrusted the two children to a child psychiatrist who has already treated similar cases
00:11:53for 3 years it is with drawings that Doctor Sabourin collected their testimonies
00:11:59dozens of drawings, dozens of hours of listening, which have forged his conviction
00:12:05he believes children
00:12:07well sure I believe that they have experienced incredible things that are very difficult for
00:12:13them to synthesize and to stage they both have a personal ability to draw them
00:12:19it is not always the case
00:12:21Marie drew the immense planted statue she said in the middle of the ceremony room
00:12:26then the pendulum and the wheel which would have been used for hypnosis sessions on children
00:12:37and always disguises of large white or red capes and crucifixes
00:12:45we submitted to Doctor Sabourin the last drawing that Marie gave us did
00:12:51In this recent drawing I find themes 1 2 3 4 themes which already existed
00:12:59I don't know if you see, yes 96, at the very beginning, where we have a ceremony with people who are visibly disguised
00:13:06with crosses on the shoulders, what we find here, we have three here
00:13:12and the crucifix there, which is a very special crucifix, you see?
00:13:16she said it was a crucifix surrounded by herbs.
00:13:19So where did she get this from? I don't know
00:13:21, is it her imagination, is she a delusional child? I don't believe it
00:13:25, that is to say that faced with this type of extremely precise and surprising element,
00:13:30I am more inclined to say, here is an element of memory which
00:13:36always reappears when it concerns a child, and of course when it comes to a teenager or an adult
00:13:41these memories of early trauma are in 1000 pieces
00:13:45and it is with a lot of difficulty a lot of emotions a lot of inner tension and fears
00:13:51it is children who are afraid, they are in terror, it is with great difficulty that they manage to
00:13:56deliver a little passage, a little piece of memory, which leaves everyone stunned,
00:14:03we say to ourselves, but anyway, how is it that they don't Didn't they speak earlier?
00:14:06how is it that they cannot describe
00:14:08a scenario as we adults would describe, there is never a scenario
00:14:12it is the big job of the police and magistrates who have a lot of difficulty with these children
00:14:18because they are looking for them the truth but the judicial truth they want to be able to write it
00:14:23like that at such and such a time it happened like this, like that, it doesn't work with children
00:14:29in October 96 the case is handled by the protection brigade minors from Paris
00:14:36The mother filed a complaint and it is here on Quai de Gèvre that the police investigation begins very quickly placed
00:14:42under the control of an investigating judge
00:14:46the police begin by hearing the children
00:14:48whose testimony, still fragmented, evolves hearing in hearing
00:14:53the father is tapped on the phone
00:14:55and very quickly the police identify his friends whom the children designate as their attackers
00:15:01and of whom they only know the faces, the nicknames or the first names
00:15:07the investigation progresses but the means seem to be lacking the minors protection brigade
00:15:13which does not follow up on suspected persons
00:15:16the investigating judge in charge of the case refused a filmed interview
00:15:20but told us: "the minors protection brigade which also carried out a major investigation has neither the time nor the means to shadow
00:15:29the shadows it is reserved for big traffickers
00:15:37yet it is a real organization involving many adults
00:15:42that the children describe and if they are unable to indicate the place of the ceremonies,
00:15:47on the other hand Marie drew us a very precise plan of the building and its basements.
00:15:53So we arrived by car here we filmed along a roundabout there was a big guy who came to open the door for us
00:16:01then we went into this place which had a fairly chic hotel
00:16:05we came to get keys and then we continued along a corridor to an elevator
00:16:12then we went down into a maze where it was cold where it was dark and it was in [spiral gesture]
00:16:19it looked like it was in the basement. Here there was a changing room where we went to change
00:16:25and dress in white and red clothes then we went here there was a room where they raped the children
00:16:32here it was the part where there were mainly the girls who raped the boys
00:16:38so here my little brother and then here me it was the men there who raped the girls
00:16:46then here it was a big room like a big cave like that in the shape of a cathedral or a nursery
00:16:53there were a lot of people here there was also a very very large wooden statue of an African god
00:17:02and when he growled people put money in large baskets
00:17:09which circulated around this statue there were ashes with children's heads at the end of a peak in the ashes
00:17:17of children's heads at the end of a peak, the heads of these children whom Marie told us
00:17:22would have been decapitated before her eyes and which we find in several of her drawings
00:17:33to access these basements Marie describes on the surface a building a sort of large hotel
00:17:39with red carpet facing a roundabout in Paris or its region, a chic building decorated with a rounded staircase
00:17:46on each side of the large entrance door bay windows,
00:17:53to the left of the building a green space hidden by a grille,
00:17:56the police did not find this building
00:17:59so they went looking for another place probably a sex shop where the father would have taken the children
00:18:06as he also raped us at his house and well there was someone who came to the house
00:18:11he undressed and put their penis in our mouth and he filmed us
00:18:21or they told us to do things to my brother all that
00:18:27between you ? - yes - and all this was filmed? he filmed it and then they took tapes to a place
00:18:33which I think was in Paris where there were lots of books on sex and all that
00:18:42and he left the tapes there
00:18:45the police found neither this second place nor any other
00:18:49and the search carried out at the father's home yielded nothing
00:18:55on March 4, 97, after 4 months of investigation
00:19:01the juvenile brigade decided to take the father into police custody.
00:19:04In all, 8 people were questioned in this case alongside the father, a professional osteopath.
00:19:10two physiotherapists, a man, a woman, an airline pilot, a communications advisor, a journalist,
00:19:18a teacher and a film decorator specializing in special effects
00:19:24all categorically deny having participated in the ceremonies and the rapes
00:19:31after the interrogation the police decide a confrontation
00:19:34between the father and his daughter Marie's mother warns her lawyer
00:19:38Maître Lardon Galéotte runs but is not authorized to assist the child
00:19:44there was a tension, which everyone can understand a fatigue, a terrible weariness
00:19:50and then a state, it's true, of concern for this child we must understand it
00:19:56when we arrived she was taken elsewhere by inspectors to be confronted
00:20:00the only thing we could tell her was that she was courage and she said what she had to say
00:20:07in the morning they questioned us many times and when I arrived in the evening he took me straight away into a confrontation
00:20:16there was no one helping me, they were all in telling me that I was a liar behind
00:20:22they all told me that I was lying that it wasn't true and all that
00:20:27then they forced me to kneel like that in front of him - why did he kneeled?
00:20:34because they wanted to watch, they wanted to see if, how he put his penis in my mouth
00:20:41he wanted to see if it was the size I don't know what
00:20:45and your father what did he say?
00:20:48he was laughing, he was laughing
00:20:53Marie's story is confirmed by the hearing report which states:
00:20:58at this point in the hearing, let's have Marie kneel down and measure the child up to the height of his face,
00:21:06what do you want? what do I tell you? It's unbearable to imagine a child experiencing such a situation.
00:21:17It's certain that from the moment
00:21:22we know the child's fragility, making him or her experience such aggression
00:21:29because already the confrontation, the interrogation and the fact of saying what one has experienced is already an aggression
00:21:35and a suffering in itself
00:21:37the confrontation with the father is a new suffering but in addition it is true
00:21:41a kind of reconstruction of the drama experienced by the child, it it's inconceivable
00:21:48it's unbearable
00:21:52at the head of the minor protection brigade Nicole Tricard
00:21:56the divisional commissioner does not wish to speak on the affair of Pierre and Marie yes
00:22:00so we asked her to show us the new room where child victims of sexual abuse
00:22:06are today being interviewed
00:22:09the room is equipped with a camera to avoid repeated hearings
00:22:14its decor is calming "because the things that are told here
00:22:16are always very serious and traumatic for the children
00:22:23the commissioner divisional then takes us
00:22:26to the old hearing rooms, we try again to question him about the affair of Pierre and Marie
00:22:32at the time of the interview the legal procedure is not yet over
00:22:36therefore Nicole Tricard is held at the duty of reserve even if the police investigation is completed,
00:22:43was it a difficult investigation? - uh no, I don't want to answer
00:22:51because this investigation is not finished, so I don't know - the investigation is still ongoing?
00:22:55-uh I don't know anything about it, and I don't want to comment on it because frankly
00:23:02it's a particularly difficult investigation uh I certainly don't agree with what is going to be said
00:23:08uh I know that the the juvenile brigade has been implicated
00:23:15so it is out of the question for me to comment on this. - What has happened ?
00:23:18why was it [the juvenile brigade] implicated? Well, by the family,
00:23:23by the mother in particular, she found that maybe we weren't doing what was right
00:23:29- but is there a reason to say that we weren't doing what was right? ?
00:23:33I heard that you had done a big investigation into this,
00:23:35we did a very big investigation. If we found nothing
00:23:37it's because there was perhaps nothing to find...
00:23:40do you think these children could make up stories?
00:23:44I don't want to comment on that
00:23:45so we're changing the subject because I absolutely don't want to talk about this affair.
00:23:53The juvenile brigade found nothing to corroborate the children's testimonies
00:23:59, but wouldn't the investigation have been distorted?
00:24:03on January 1, 97, the father of Pierre and Marie
00:24:07was tapped on the phone and the police transcribed a conversation in which he confided to a friend.
00:24:14I have information about what is actually happening with the judge from time to time
00:24:21the father does not speak here from the investigating judge but from the children's judge
00:24:25also seized of this case. The inspector
00:24:33who deciphers the recorded tape subsequently
00:24:38notes that it appears that Mr.
00:24:43father of Pierre and Marie, clerk in another court
00:24:49to have organized these leaks
00:24:53this is part of my surprises in knowing this file
00:24:58is that in fact it appears when reading the file of the police investigation,
00:25:04and It is one of the inspectors in charge of this investigation who reports it and who underlines it:
00:25:08the father was kept informed of
00:25:15research carried out by the police, of wiretapping, of surveillance
00:25:23she notes it in her minutes and that is completely surprising
00:25:30and did that count for the future? for example, does the investigating judge take it into account?
00:25:35it seems that all this has been forgotten a little bit and that as it stands
00:25:43it was in fact a sign of failure somewhere in the investigation since the person mainly interested
00:25:49had been informed and the police investigation stopped, nothing could be done,
00:25:57however, on March 6, 97, the day after the confrontation with his daughter,
00:26:04the father was indicted by the investigating judge installed on the other side of the Seine (Fleuve de Paris)
00:26:10for rape of a minor under 15 years of age, sexual assault on a minor, corruption of a minor,
00:26:16fixation, recording of pornographic images of minors
00:26:24despite the seriousness of the suspicions weighing on the father, justice decides to
00:26:29authorize him to see again his children a month after his indictment
00:26:37Pierre and Marie refuse
00:26:40April 98 a year has passed
00:26:45the investigating judge hears the children for the second time
00:26:49and decides that day to confront them again with their father whom they haven't seen each other for a year
00:26:55during the confrontation Marie didn't feel the confidence of the investigating judge
00:27:03she didn't believe me, the investigating judge - what's that? - because it was obvious
00:27:11she didn't treat me kindly and then she asked him for his opinion
00:27:19to say words for example, to write words that he had said
00:27:26and when I said important things, sometimes she didn't write them down not
00:27:31but did you have a lawyer with you?
00:27:33yes but she did nothing, she was sitting nearby then she looked at me like that and then she listened
00:27:35My father had two lawyers who defended him
00:27:40so I had one who did nothing at all
00:27:44for the first time Marie has a lawyer at her side sides but it is not about Maître Lardon Galéotte,
00:27:50his mother's lawyer, it is about another lawyer chosen and appointed by the courts.
00:27:56I met him and then once she told me
00:28:00we were discussing and she said to me "but you know if you keep quiet, we won't be there to bother you"
00:28:06it will be good because we will leave you alone we won't be there to bother you
00:28:13and then if you speak we will be forced to 'to still be with you and still make you talk and then
00:28:19she was telling me that so she was telling me to keep quiet.
00:28:23Maître Gardzon Blenbum is the lawyer appointed to defend the children,
00:28:27she completely denies Marie's version
00:28:31so it is quite extraordinary that they are saying that today when if these are the two children I am thinking of
00:28:40we have always had very good relations, they have always opened up very frankly with me
00:28:47and I do not believe that there is anything in the file either in my statements
00:28:54or in the relations that I had with them which could have made them think that I didn't believe them.
00:29:00Did you believe them? these two children,
00:29:02these two children, I believed that at the start there was surely something real,
00:29:09why at the start?
00:29:11I told you I didn't want to talk about this issue,
00:29:16why? - but because it is an ethical problem I do not want to talk about this file,
00:29:24no one wants to talk about this file, why does no one want to talk about this file?
00:29:28I don't know, I'm asking you, what do you think?
00:29:31I don't know, this file is no different from the other files
00:29:33, it's an ethical problem, the files in which the children are involved
00:29:36we don't have to display them in the public square, then free then of course at the parties themselves to do
00:29:42so, it's their choice they will express what they have expressed what they want to express
00:29:47with their own version, but I mean, the speakers, I believe that in a normal way
00:29:53n do not have to express themselves on this case which had a legal outcome which is what it is
00:30:00so it is Maître Lardon Galéotte the sea lawyer who is trying to relaunch the investigations
00:30:06The children's story has become clearer and she asks the judge for further investigation
00:30:11We hoped that other people could possibly be sought or heard and it is true that there
00:30:17we encountered a refusal from the investigating judge
00:30:22in May 98. The investigating judge refused the lawyer's request
00:30:28in these cases. terms: "given that if we cannot deny
00:30:35the existence of sects in France, nor their growing influence, it nevertheless appears
00:30:40unimaginable that within the framework of these groups there could be, as
00:30:46Marie declares, children's heads at the end of picks which burn
00:30:50a severed child's head and hands and jars on a table containing children's hands
00:30:59expected on the other hand, although Pierre declared during the confrontation that women
00:31:04also put their willies in his mouth and in his buttocks, this is obviously materially impossible.
00:31:11For these reasons, let us reject the requests for additional investigation requested by Maître Lardon Galeotte
00:31:20This fact in Paris on May 28, 1998
00:31:25the first investigating judge [cut] it's extraordinary
00:31:30the children are very frankly discredited
00:31:34the investigating judge in charge of the case did not wish to receive us
00:31:37we went to see her colleague Christian Berkani first investigating judge
00:31:42also in the juvenile section of Paris Christian Berkan also participated
00:31:46in the development of the new law concerning child victims of sexual abuse.
00:31:51She defines the role of the judge as follows: "the investigating judge must not have a negative or positive a priori
00:32:00the judge, the essence Even the judge's job is to bring into his file all the elements against him,
00:32:08therefore the elements which attest to guilt or the exculpatory elements, that is to say
00:32:14the elements which tend to establish non-guilty, which is what the judge must do is bring all these
00:32:20elements one by one into his file and it is the court or the assize court which will decide
00:32:28if the offense is proven or if it is not
00:32:31but the judge must not be said a priori this is improbable
00:32:36or on the contrary this is totally the truth
00:32:40the investigating judge requested a psychiatric assessment of Pierre and Marie
00:32:45the expert receives them only once and concludes his report
00:32:49with the overall credibility of the remarks children but he adds that
00:32:56their testimony deserves to be received with caution
00:32:59in an attempt to restore the credibility of her children;
00:33:03the mother then decides to take them to Professor Philippe Mazé, author of numerous works on
00:33:08child abuse and incest, he heads the child psychiatry department of the Salpétrière hospital in Paris
00:33:15he followed Pierre and Marie for 1 year for him the children do not make up
00:33:21this is only in a very small number of cases, so depending on the work , it goes from 3 to 6%
00:33:29it's not much but there can be false allegations
00:33:34we know and currently particularly in situations of major parental conflicts
00:33:41and divorce but in my experience I must say that what I I observed
00:33:47in these two children this is something that did not make me evoke false allegations at all,
00:33:56not at all, I felt on the contrary a very great difficulty in talking
00:34:01about the facts of the events I did not at all have the feeling of being confronted
00:34:06with a child who was telling a story,
00:34:10so neither Professor Mazé nor the two other doctors treating
00:34:13the children were heard by the courts,
00:34:17the sectarian framework and the facts described by Are the children therefore credible or unimaginable as the investigating judge wrote?
00:34:26We asked the question to Paul Ariès, a sociologist specializing in sects and child abuse
00:34:31who has carried out studies for the Ministry of Health we submitted to him
00:34:36all the declarations of Pierre and Mary
00:34:40They said prayers they said that they were pure women
00:34:43in fact they said that one day there was the planet all the people of this planet, they had scattered on the earth
00:34:53and now they had to gather them the people
00:34:57in fact there was a kind of God, a messenger of the gods he was called, who came to tell them that they would soon have to leave
00:35:05for their planet or something like that which is stupid which
00:35:10I would tend to say that this who we what is told to us here is completely unimaginable
00:35:15that is to say that a child cannot imagine it, a child cannot invent it
00:35:20first element it is these elements we could say of doctrine c that is to say that we are part if we are from the point of view of the followers of this group
00:35:26we are part of an elite we are part
00:35:29of an elite which comes from another planet and which is for moment on earth
00:35:33and which will soon be effectively called to leave
00:35:36it is part globally I was going to say of the common background
00:35:38of all kinds of networks today
00:35:41the necessity also ultimately of I was going to say
00:35:43to kill someone to save them or to actually save humanity also all kinds
00:35:47of rites where we are spoken to at a given moment we are told these men are pure women
00:35:53so that is something that we find relatively frequently in literature
00:35:57the woman is that which fertilizes, what we must do here is actually succeed in fertilizing
00:36:02what we call the humunculus, that is to say the superman. It seems to me that we find ourselves
00:36:05here at the crossroads between two types networks, on the one hand actually saucer networks
00:36:12and then on the other hand sexual magic networks and we know that
00:36:16these connections are being established more and more
00:36:18there were people who had cash, well not masks diving,
00:36:22but some kind of glasses with something on the mouth, finally dressed like,
00:36:30finally with blouses, and there was a table with cut out children's hands on it,
00:36:39a child's head and then some kind of, I don't know if they were guts, some kind of thing like that,
00:36:47and they put these things, these hands and all that, in jars.
00:36:53These cut hands in jars are something that exists
00:36:57. Does that represent the severed hands in the jars?
00:37:00so here again there are several possible interpretations
00:37:03, that is to say that we can simply have practices of the type of cannibalism
00:37:10the objective being to actually succeed in increasing our own power
00:37:14to learn also I was going to say to suffer
00:37:17learning to make suffer in order to become more powerful
00:37:20did this seem like real childish hands on this table to you?
00:37:23oh yes there was blood and all that,
00:37:27what did you feel?
00:37:29I was very scared - what did you think? - I told myself that we were the next ones that they were going to kill,
00:37:40the only difficulty then is to ultimately know when these children tell us these monstrosities,
00:37:46are they recounting facts that they have truly experienced or is it Do they
00:37:51talk about the hallucinations they were made to experience?
00:37:54we undoubtedly use a certain number of drugs
00:37:56to effectively either cause artificial amnesia
00:38:01or, on the contrary, to produce hallucinations, so all the
00:38:06children's speech is credible speech, it seems to me, but it is a speech which must be
00:38:11deconstructed, that is to say that a whole part of what the children tell us
00:38:16perhaps refers to voluntary hallucinations, the objective being in particular to terrify them
00:38:21in order to effectively prevent them from speaking
00:38:24for the defense, that is to say - say for Maître Smadja Epstein,
00:38:28the lawyer of the father of Pierre and Marie, it is not a question of hallucination but simply of the imagination of the children
00:38:35truly no one believed in the story of these children and in fact
00:38:39we do not couldn't believe it we couldn't believe it, why? firstly because they, firstly at first
00:38:44they simply said that he was violent and not at all that he had committed sexual violence
00:38:49then the sexual violence little by little worsened to the point that
00:38:55one day, and that's how the affair started, they indicated that their father was part of a sect
00:39:00and that this sect there were men and women everywhere, in a hotel
00:39:06where there were statues where we saw severed heads or severed hands of children
00:39:10where there were naked children running around a room all this time. which is a comic
00:39:15to such an extent that no one believed it
00:39:18we found comics in exactly the same style as the children's lyrics
00:39:22Tintins and the Black Claw, where there are quite violent scenes the six guards of the pharaoh
00:39:30there are also quite violent scenes
00:39:33; they were originally influenced, it seems, even unconsciously
00:39:38by a story from the mother, and then they drew on comics and television
00:39:43all the time... - in Tintin? - no, in Tintin, in The Blue Lotus, in certain pages in the black label
00:39:51we found scenes of sects since it is mainly the sect, look in particular
00:39:57they spoke of people draped, the children spoke of people draped with sentences that we find
00:40:11and this is the father who found the readings that his children may have had,
00:40:14did they know the albums?
00:40:17yes you know it's completely banal children's readings
00:40:22the father of the children refused a filmed interview - Several things, we called your children Pierre and Marie
00:40:31but he agreed to speak to us on the phone after some recommendation from his lawyer
00:40:36it's recorded that's why it's annoying, well then on the other hand, try not to do psychology
00:40:42I'm putting you on loudspeaker
00:40:45you have been accused by your children of incestuous acts
00:40:51in a sectarian context, What do you think ?
00:40:56well nothing, I said what I had to say at the level of justice of course
00:41:03so your daughter's story really seems quite incredible
00:41:07she speaks of sectarian frameworks, of ritual,
00:41:13I think that we all have a imagination, Zoro
00:41:17the facts the things the things finally I believe that the imagination helps
00:41:23the imagination a lot, reading these things we all have this imagination fortunately moreover
00:41:26can a child be confronted with such an imagination ?
00:41:29In books, does a child read things like this?
00:41:34well remember your childhood - yes and then I talked about comics
00:41:40- remember your childhood, every child has an imagination that's how I see things
00:41:45the little one actually talked about absolutely incredible things, I don't remember everything
00:41:52but absolutely incredible things, well I think we were in the middle of the Dutroux affair
00:41:57so we found ourselves, you can imagine, that's what the Dutroux affair is more or less
00:42:03with a history of absolutely incredible things, with in fact very clear evocations
00:42:10, well, not very clear, of sexual acts of the order I believe of sodomy of fellatio, of things like that
00:42:18in this affair, how do you think that Marie then Pierre were led to make such declarations ?
00:42:27I believe that when there is a divorce, there is once again a loss of direction
00:42:31at the level of the children at the level of the parents as well, well of the couple should I say
00:42:37the period when the parents would normally be supposed to rebuild something also
00:42:43then comes graft, I am absolutely certain of that, all the perversity of, how should I put it?
00:42:53well all the couple problems or unresolved problems couple in divorce
00:42:59a few moments before this telephone recording
00:43:02the father of the children had raised the theme of incest
00:43:07around the theme of incest you told me earlier "the incest, this impulse that moves each of us"?
00:43:13Mrs. Giusti I think we stop there I have to receive other clients I thank you
00:43:21other elements on the personality of the father of Pierre and Marie appear in
00:43:26the wiretaps carried out by the police, at that time the father did not still been informed by
00:43:34the investigators of the accusations that his children are making against him
00:43:39here are some excerpts of dialogue transcribed by the police
00:43:42and read by two of our colleagues
00:43:46conversation of December 3, 96
00:43:48the father of Pierre and Marie speaks to a friend:
00:43:53I think I have a complex personality
00:43:57fascinated by the beautiful and the sordid at the same time, I have seen and experienced the sordid and the beautiful of everything
00:44:03- I don't really see how one can be fascinated by the sordid? by the power of that - of destruction?
00:44:08oh there, yes I can tell you
00:44:12conversation of December 28, 96 always with a friend
00:44:18the morbid you have to take it as the accident, as an accident, as something in which
00:44:23you could possibly fall, well if I dare say,
00:44:27I get heated when I talk about that,
00:44:29I think we can explore the human soul without getting caught up
00:44:33in conversation from January 1, 97
00:44:38I don't know if you're aware there are very well-known sects which advocate precisely things where the limits
00:44:42become a little blurry in terms of what it is possible to do with your child
00:44:47- well yes I know, wait I know something yes yes I know all that
00:44:53on November 30, 98 for lack of proof
00:44:56for lack of confession the investigating judge orders a dismissal in the case of Pierre and Marie
00:45:03her colleague Christiane Bercani explains to us what this means
00:45:08if the investigating judge was unable to gather
00:45:09sufficient evidence, he issues an order of dismissal an order of dismissal
00:45:16does not mean here again that the victim lied or that she did not suffer the effect
00:45:23it means in French law that the investigating judge did not establish the incriminating evidence
00:45:33supporting the victim's statement
00:45:36from then on the father of Pierre and Marie is no longer prosecuted by the courts
00:45:40the mother of the children then decides to appeal the decision to dismiss
00:45:46she relies on an association for the defense of the rights of the child who holds information
00:45:51likely to relaunch the case
00:45:54information held here in Lausanne in Switzerland by this man
00:46:00George Glatz, deputy for the canton of Vaud responsible for issues of child abuse
00:46:06founder of CIDE, an association which centralizes files child victims of sexual abuse
00:46:12we wrote to the public prosecutor of the Paris high court
00:46:16to tell him that in the file of Pierre and Marie we have new elements namely we have
00:46:21another case of sexual abuse of 'another child, Sylvie
00:46:26the children do not know each other
00:46:28but we noted many similar elements and then finally we offered the children
00:46:34a panel of photos where the abuser of Pierre and Marie was recognized by little Sylvie
00:46:43and the Sylvie's abuser was recognized by the other group of children Pierre and Marie
00:46:48Sylvie and her little sister we found them
00:46:52somewhere in the East of France, Sylvie is now 6 years old
00:46:57she was four at the time of the events which would have taken place in the Paris region
00:47:02just like Marie, Sylvie spoke gradually
00:47:05to finally reveal that her father, her grandfather and her grandmother
00:47:09would have subjected her to sexual abuse. The decorum is different from that of Pierre and Marie
00:47:15but the similar abuse
00:47:19that's dad and that's old man, old man
00:47:25that's me and that's Marguerite
00:47:30she shows her teeth and me too
00:47:33and that's [cut] that's he has the most long penis, and that's dad, he has the smallest
00:47:42Marguerite or mine, and well he puts the penis on the penis, and that's [poorly articulated, hardly understandable]
00:47:55[name cut off] [name cut off] c 'is the grandpa - he's your dad's dad - [cut] he's dad's mom and here it's dad
00:48:08he throws Marguerite into the fire here I can't remember - what can't you remember?
00:48:19my problem - do you want to explain your problem to us?
00:48:31you sit down ? because once when already when when she she [cut] tore all the golden silver dresses
00:48:44and then they killed Marguerite so everyone had to come
00:48:52to help her
00:49:03what are you doing there explain to me?
00:49:06that's where he bit
00:49:13Little Sylvie also talks about child murders
00:49:18that's what Sylvie tells us she's been telling it for several months but unfortunately
00:49:26no one wants to hear it, moreover Sylvie gives us details which really suggest
00:49:30that the thing could be true since she describes the child in the earth
00:49:35with earth in his eyes, therefore details that a child of This age cannot invent
00:49:40or that she has probably not seen in a cartoon or other
00:49:46legally where are you in this matter? Have you filed a complaint ma'am?
00:49:50we filed a complaint in August 97 when I learned that there had perhaps been suspicion of touching,
00:49:59she saw a legal doctor who noted that, well who didn't notice anything at all because
00:50:05in the more the exam went more or less badly, given that it was gentlemen students
00:50:10plus Sylvie at the time refused to see anything that looked like a man and there was a complete blockage
00:50:16so the This exam was really particularly painful for her and for me too
00:50:22because I really had the impression of being the woman who wants to get rid of her husband
00:50:26or her partner
00:50:28of 2 years. Sylvie's teacher noticed the behavior of the child and worried,
00:50:34little Sylvie really had a reaction of fear at the moment
00:50:41when people unknown to her entered the school, in particular municipal employees
00:50:48the school photographer that we were waiting for, she hid behind his arm, behind her blanket
00:50:55her beloved little rag, and she had a lot of trouble behaving like other children
00:50:59which is what comes up most often and that from the start my dad hurts me in my head
00:51:04she told my colleagues dozens of times, she told me dozens of times
00:51:08my dad hurts in my head and this little girl still has
00:51:14reactions of great suffering very regularly and for almost 2 years I already have it says great
00:51:20great inner sadness a child of that age uh I would say don't just cry
00:51:27like that on command she has something that bothers her, she has something that hurts her
00:51:31soul and we see it we we see it in her eyes we see it in certain behaviors
00:51:37and this little girl needs help for sure this little girl has experienced serious things
00:51:45the mother filed a complaint 2 and a half years ago she also handed it over to the police a recording
00:51:51it is a telephone message left on the personal answering machine of his ex partner by one of his friends
00:51:57hi it's [cut] well it's Saturday 1 12:40 p.m. I'm calling you because you called me called back several times
00:52:09telling me that it was urgent I don't think we've had each other since
00:52:12what I would especially like to know, we already have to prepare for
00:52:16the devilish weekend, the groups we want to do there you would have to tell me how much you are going to come
00:52:25The justice system also has this document but here at the Strasbourg court we could not take up the case
00:52:31because the facts would have taken place in the Paris region and for 2 years Sylvie's file
00:52:38went back and forth between Strasbourg and Versailles
00:52:42a procedure which surprised the deputy prosecutor of Strasbourg
00:52:46indeed it must be recognized that there are back and forths in the procedure
00:52:48which still seem particularly unusual
00:52:53to what do you attribute the delay?
00:52:56I don't know, I can't explain,
00:52:58it's a sensitive matter all the same?
00:53:01it is if we believe the child with all there I believe that we must pay attention to the credibility of the words of a child,
00:53:10it could be a sensitive matter indeed
00:53:14since the justice has made two decisions it has appointed a judge to
00:53:18investigate the case but at the same time decided to remove custody of her two
00:53:24little daughters from the mother and entrust it to the father.
00:53:28since the mother took refuge abroad with her children
00:53:34May 6, 99 Paris courthouse
00:53:40The mother of Pierre and Marie will find out whether or not
00:53:42the judges establish a link between the case of little Sylvie and that of his two children
00:53:51the answer is no, his appeal to dismiss the case has just been rejected.
00:53:55I find it absolutely shameful because I want to do everything so that everything goes well
00:53:59but in the meantime there are other children who are concerned and for more than 2 years no one has moved,
00:54:04it is these children who are in danger today and there is a responsibility which is enormous
00:54:14the father of Pierre and Marie not having been prosecuted
00:54:18the justice system reestablished his visitation rights as he requested
00:54:23it is first planned that they meet in a mediation center
00:54:27then he will be able to resume them later every other weekend
00:54:34it's horrible this that they did to us and all that so we still
00:54:38can't go back so
00:54:42the mother must now convince her children to see their father again
00:54:47otherwise it is she who risks being sentenced for non-representation of children
00:54:52so she has chosen to leaving to live abroad with Pierre and Marie
00:55:01and after this moving document we find ourselves on this set with some of
00:55:05the actors who are each confronted in their role with the drama of pedophilia
00:55:10firstly Frédéric Bredin socialist deputy for Seine Maritime and rapporteur of the Guigou law
00:55:17on the repression of sexual offenses Martine Bouillon who is deputy prosecutor at the Bobigny court
00:55:22Martine Nice who is a family therapist and co-founder of the Buttes Chaumont therapy center
00:55:27George Glatz who we saw in this document who is a deputy of Lausanne founder of the CIDE
00:55:33International Committee for the Dignity of the Child, and finally the main commissioner Jean-Yve Leguénec
00:55:38who is head of the departmental security of Haut-de-Seine and as such he therefore directs a brigade of minors
00:55:41of first of all thank you all for being present on this set
00:55:47Jean Yves Leguénec you are a little bit the representative of the police here, how does a children's hearing take place
00:55:51in a juvenile brigade when a child arrives is it- Is the police officer who
00:55:55hears it alone with this child, for example, or is he assisted by a doctor or psychologist?
00:55:59so uh first of all there are two ways to receive a child
00:56:06since you know that a law was passed by Parliament in June 98 and which now
00:56:15obliges in a certain number of cases to carry out the video recording
00:56:22of the interview with the child. However, this law was implemented in June 99
00:56:32and we do not yet have sufficient perspective and
00:56:37not all the children we receive in the juvenile brigade are heard under these conditions - yes, precisely, I was going to tell you
00:56:40the law requires that they be heard under these conditions but are they really heard?
00:56:44is the law enforced, is it everywhere? - so some are actually
00:56:49heard in these conditions, and then others are heard in much more traditional conditions
00:56:53such as we have heard them for years,
00:56:58that is to say that it actually happens behind closed doors of an office
00:57:07between a judicial police officer and the child, and this office is not a completely
00:57:12traditional police office; we have installed in the offices of the juvenile brigade
00:57:20two parts in a way, one part game and a much more traditional administrative part
00:57:26but frankly, do you have the feeling that the police officers who receive
00:57:28this kind of testimony are sufficiently trained? They are not doctors, they are not therapists
00:57:33. Do you have the feeling that the work is not a bit heavy for them alone when dealing
00:57:37with this child? ah of course it's a heavy job, it's a difficult job
00:57:42and requires a lot of rigor but also a lot of personal investment
00:57:48if you want, but they are trained for that, they are trained to do this work
00:57:56I think that their results on a general level are not subject to doubt
00:58:05so you obviously provoke reactions, we start with Frédéric Bredin and then Martine
00:58:09I first want to say that the report that we have just seen is very moving and especially terrifying
00:58:16if the facts shown in this report are proven, it still shows a
00:58:22series of gaps, delays in the investigation, both police and judicial, which would really justify an inspection
00:58:30in particular from the Chancellery to see what is going on and how it could have happened
00:58:36we are talking about a flight from the father since in reality it could be something else but it is the father
00:58:42who was suspected, we are talking of a lack of listening of a completely
00:58:49uncontrolled confrontation in the police office with a sort of wild reconstruction we are talking about an absence
00:58:58of psychiatric expertise in any case of the failure to listen to a number of experts during the instruction
00:59:05so there is a whole series of things that really leave you speechless and that
00:59:11really should make you think. if the things shown to us are correct I repeat - they
00:59:15are the result of an investigation lasting a year and a half I remind you - really listen
00:59:20it is completely not only surprising but I must say shocking I think for all the spectators
00:59:24the second thing which seems shocking to me and allow me to follow up on what you have just
00:59:28said is that in fact the deputies have decided in France to vote for a law on
00:59:33sexual offenses which I believe is quite important. in 98 which planned on the one hand to strengthen
00:59:39repression for the perpetrators, to provide follow-up, possibly also psychiatric,
00:59:46of those convicted of sexual offenses upon release from prison to avoid repeat offenses but
00:59:50which planned and that is the subject of our debate a whole series of measures in favor
00:59:56of child victims and one of the things which has been planned, and it was hours and hours of debate,
01:00:01is that children will only be interviewed once thanks to a video recording and what you
01:00:09seem to be saying is that it is not applied, what is good is that we organize debates on television
01:00:14- frankly what we can see, yes I believe that we can go further, this is
01:00:18frankly what is observed on the ground, is that there are many places where children
01:00:22cannot be heard like that - it was hours of discussion and therefore the case
01:00:26which is provided for not having the audio recording is if the child refuses it or his legal representative
01:00:31apart from this very specific case there must be systematically audio recording
01:00:37this is what the legislator has planned, then it is possible that the legislator makes laws for nothing
01:00:41that the implementing decree is of no use but I believe that this audio recording is
01:00:46absolutely essential, we see it clearly in the report that was shown to us to prevent children
01:00:50from repeating 20 times the same facts which are obviously extremely traumatic
01:00:56and moreover I insist on another interest in the recording, we see it clearly in the film, the child's words are not necessarily extremely
01:01:04logical - when you say audio moreover it is audio and video - yes audiovisual - we see
01:01:09the child's face and we can also follow - image and sound, which is very important because we
01:01:14see clearly that the child's speech is not It's not necessarily extremely structured, it's about
01:01:17horribly traumatic memories, as a psychiatrist said, you have to put the
01:01:22pieces of shattered memories back together and the silences and gestures are surely as important as
01:01:28the child's words. - Martine Bouillon I saw you earlier reacting to Jean Yves Leganec's remarks.
01:01:33Do you sometimes have the feeling that children are not heard as they should be?
01:01:36I think to respond to everything that has been said so far and to respond to what has been
01:01:40said about the report, I am completely overwhelmed by this report, I can tell you
01:01:48what jumped out at me the most to my eyes, I absolutely did not expect to see this, what stood out to me the most
01:01:54was that I know of a kid who drew me a drawing exactly the same
01:02:00as the drawing of the kid, we could perhaps ask ourselves some questions, first thing
01:02:06Second thing and which has nothing to do with these children who are here moreover
01:02:11second thing what we see of these children in the video is precisely
01:02:19what they don't say is this extraordinary suffering, so I don't know what it's like
01:02:24that we can say it's unimaginable and then stop saying it's unimaginable
01:02:30what was unimaginable 100 years ago nevertheless exists, so why don't we go
01:02:36a little further and why Are we not simply taking into account this suffering
01:02:39that we see, which is palpable in this report, for me I really have no doubt
01:02:46about the suffering of these children. - Martine Bouillon I would like to ask you another question because
01:02:49we have just talked about the training of police officers and the difficulty of putting it in place
01:02:54- the police are not trained any more than the magistrates are trained and to say that , well it looks good
01:02:59it's very good on a television set, but it's not true they are not trained for that
01:03:03we weren't trained for that, not even the psychiatrists and psychologists, when we did precisely
01:03:10when we looked into the problem with the law of 97 98 we realized that there were very
01:03:16few trainers possible because very few people were informed, there is no compulsory training
01:03:22there there are possible internships, there are people who are interested in a certain number of things
01:03:26and who do internships in continuing education but there is no compulsory training
01:03:31a particular type of compulsory training for this or that person who will 'occupying
01:03:36this or that function is moreover - there are public prosecutor's offices like Besançon, excuse me, where the police and gendarmes
01:03:41are helped by the - we have started to put in place training since law 98, but
01:03:47training obligatory there are none - I cannot let it be said that the
01:03:52police officers of the juvenile brigade are not trained, that they are not sufficiently
01:03:58trained, that is your point of view but we cannot not to say that they are not trained. the officials
01:04:03of the juvenile brigade in my country, indeed like the magistrates receive general training
01:04:08but from the moment they are assigned to a juvenile brigade they receive
01:04:14specific training they actually receive - what do you call this
01:04:19specific training? I'm interested to know, who gives this training? Are psychiatrists
01:04:23psychologists? and how long does it last too? This is training which is set up by the Ministry
01:04:27of the Interior and which is carried out by people who are outside the police - Frankly Jean Yves
01:04:32Leganec, don't you have the feeling that in this type of edition it would be, I was
01:04:37even going to say pleasant, well the term is poorly chosen, it would be wise for the police to be
01:04:44accompanied by a doctor, a therapist, a psychiatrist to be able to help them get through this
01:04:50kind of hearing because it must not be easy for them either
01:04:53- there are pilot sites in France which have already foreseen the problem
01:04:59and which carry out hearings of children no longer even in police stations or the gendarmerie but at the hospital
01:05:03- but shouldn't that be obligatory? for the moment the law came out in 98 all the
01:05:10same while it takes time for it to be put in place and we have sufficient hindsight we cannot say
01:05:17- that's what I wanted to say to Madame Rodin right away time as far as the application of the law is concerned
01:05:20it is being set up in my department there is a recording studio which has been set up
01:05:26and where recordings are made but not all cases are done. subject
01:05:33of registration because effectively it is necessary to obtain the authorization of the victim
01:05:38or the victim's representative and then the magistrate who is responsible for the file has his say
01:05:43so there are a certain number of files which make the object of recording
01:05:46and then others not - I would like at this stage of the program to also have the opinion of Martine Nice who
01:05:52is a family therapist and co-founder of the Buttes Chaumont therapy center, we saw in
01:05:56this document a particularly painful confrontation for this little Marie
01:06:02first question which is outside of this affair, is the confrontation a good thing for the
01:06:07children who have experienced such sexual abuse or not? so we must differentiate
01:06:12children before puberty from adolescents because adolescents often want confrontations
01:06:18because they want to fight it out a little. At the level of children, grandchildren,
01:06:23it is very complicated because a word must be said about the trauma, the trauma
01:06:28of this nature of sexual assault triggers very specific psychological effects
01:06:33which create in the victim a kind of of psychological dissociation, this means that
01:06:39the child's body is there to put it simply, and his head is elsewhere, to be able to survive the event
01:06:44and that allows him to keep somewhere a fairly good, fairly ideal vision of
01:06:50the person who attacked him and that's why we see these children in confrontations being able to
01:06:55jump on the neck of their father or their mother even though he said just before having been raped by this one
01:07:01it's very complicated to put in place to understand the nature of this communication that
01:07:07the child will establish in the confrontation where a look from his attacker terrifies him
01:07:12and conditions him to show something other than fear - what do you think of this confrontation there ?
01:07:17this confrontation is absolutely unheard of, obviously I share Madame Bredin's emotion
01:07:23but I will perhaps say something that will shock also
01:07:28nothing is more traumatic than rape itself, we must not imagine that the police investigation
01:07:34or legal proceedings will traumatize the child in an even more painful way than he
01:07:40has already been, this is not true and it even has a liberating effect on the child and moreover what we
01:07:44saw in the report that is to say the child was drawing and explaining to the journalist, the child
01:07:50could cry, these children when they are at the beginning of the therapy work they are emotionally
01:07:56anesthetized, there is no manifestation neither fear nor crying - there is a central question which is
01:08:02at the center of this document, can a child under 8-9 years old invent such traumas or not?
01:08:08it's absolutely impossible I'm going to use Mr. Aries' phrase
01:08:13, it's unimaginable in the literal sense of the term, a child can't imagine that
01:08:19I've never seen it - I'd like to come back to your initial question in France, at least
01:08:25from what I hear, most of the intra-family abuses do not pose too much of a problem
01:08:31when they are dealt with by the courts, but I notice that when there are abuses
01:08:37that affect a community , to a group, the children are given to several partners so
01:08:44all of a sudden we are witnessing numerous slip-ups, we will have the opportunity to come back to this but indeed
01:08:49testimonies like those we have just heard, I 'I've already seen a lot of
01:08:55people passing through Switzerland who are fleeing France, mothers who leave with a small suitcase and who leave
01:08:59with their two children, yes now as far as I'm concerned I would like to react to
01:09:04the hearing as it is is practiced for the two children
01:09:09who are made to kneel, one child to measure if the
01:09:14centimeter actually goes up to the height of the penis since it is marked at this moment by making them kneel
01:09:19we measure the child up to at the height of his face let's trace this height from the feet
01:09:23of Mr., note that this height coincides with the location of the penis of Mr.
01:09:29doing this in confrontation is a second rape of the child in my opinion, we do not does not have to
01:09:34kneel a child in front of an alleged but still presumed abuser - Jean Leganec - I must tell you that the confrontation
01:09:41between a child, a small child and then the alleged perpetrator
01:09:50is what we concerns, the juvenile brigade that I direct is very very
01:09:56exceptional, and it happens in very special conditions, that is to say that we prevent
01:10:02the child from being able to see and be seen by the author, if you want we make them turn their backs
01:10:10we make sure they don't talk to each other so if you want we really try
01:10:16to avoid any pressure being put on the child but I absolutely agree that
01:10:23the law which was passed in 98 will avoid this kind of problem - I would really like to
01:10:30ask you a very specific question in relation to what you said Martine Nice, you say it
01:10:35is unimaginable to think that children of 8 or 9 years or less of course have invented
01:10:41such testimonies so I would like to ask you a very specific question how do you
01:10:45explain the fact that the two child psychiatrists who followed Pierre and Marie were never
01:10:52heard by the judge of instruction, they made the request and they never received a response so
01:10:57how can this be explained? Martine Bouillon - yes you know that Zoro fairy tales
01:11:02are in the children's imagination, that's what the father said but I don't think they imagine
01:11:07what they imagined with the children with the head on a pike et cetera how is that imaginable?
01:11:15investigating magistrates are not in the habit of hearing
01:11:23therapists directly, whatever the therapists may be, for a very simple reason: usually
01:11:28therapists have always wanted to hide behind professional secrecy - but this is
01:11:33not the case because they asked to be heard - this is a usual approach I would tell you from the
01:11:39investigating judge who does not go and find the therapist there you tell me that they asked
01:11:44to be heard - and they received no response -it is not imaginable that they are not heard
01:11:49but anyway if you want we have just understood that pedophilia existed
01:11:58we cannot yet understand that there exists even worse than pedophilia I would say "simple"
01:12:05and there are people who still resist with all their strength
01:12:10and with all their interiority to this type and visibly the investigating judge, I don't know
01:12:15who the investigating judge is there, who says in his order that it is so unimaginable
01:12:21that it is not credible, this one resists and will always resist - you have pointed out
01:12:28a problem = which exists which is important, it is indeed a problem for the doctors who
01:12:32report these cases because they are of course obliged to do so to violate professional secrecy
01:12:37and they risk being struck off by the Order of Physicians, this has already happened Frédérique Bredin
01:12:42I believe that you have considered the possibility of development in this area? - these are nevertheless extremely delicate subjects
01:12:48because it is true that denunciations and accusations,
01:12:53once they are made, they also mark people for life. there are of course the children
01:12:58then there are those we accuse, if it's true we must be merciless, if it's inaccurate it could ruin
01:13:06someone's life so we also understand this sensitivity that we ask magistrates
01:13:12or police officers to respect the rights of the defense and to be careful
01:13:16in their investigations but it is true that until now those who have dared to break the law of silence
01:13:22are quite rare and those who have had the courage to doing it today find themselves in
01:13:27sometimes very difficult situations because they are implicated by cases where people have been
01:13:34implicated by their children, this leads for example to a dismissal of the case and then they turn
01:13:39against the attending physician for example or against the person who alerted
01:13:45the courts or the police and they may be the subject of very harsh professional procedures
01:13:51- can we protect them better? it would undoubtedly be necessary to extend the protection today of
01:13:56professionals who report - I see more and more procedures for
01:14:01slanderous denunciation which work because slanderous denunciation, as soon as there is
01:14:06no grounds, slanderous denunciation is presumed - so isn't there a
01:14:10problem at the moment also with the divorce proceedings? we have the feeling today that
01:14:15if there are divorce proceedings in progress the magistrate will have great difficulty believing the children?
01:14:21to believe the mother and to believe the children, yes he thinks immediately, there have been a few cases it's
01:14:26true that there are, we said the credibility of the children the grandchildren -3 to 6% of false allegations
01:14:31said the doctors, -3 to 6% yes said Mr. Ariès, yes uh it doesn't matter
01:14:40it's true that there are a few but we are adults we must be able to check very quickly
01:14:46when a child is lying when a child starts to tell you the story which is
01:14:51someone else's story we see it very quickly and when we don't really want to really get
01:14:58into these matters we always have the possibility of saying ah it's still a story of divorce
01:15:03so it's a story, therefore it's invented by the mother, so I'm not saying
01:15:09that it's dishonest, I'm saying that internally, unconsciously we have a ready-made pretext
01:15:15for reject the matter to the dark side of thought and not to clarity - justice [unintelligible]
01:15:27- first of all we know full well when we are presented
01:15:32with a case that in the event of divorce there may be a difficulty, the best way
01:15:37to have the father's visiting rights taken away is to accuse him of sexual violence, we know that - the proof that no, we give it back to him
01:15:43- the document tries to prove something different in any case not necessarily
01:15:47the opposite - but it's just one case - no, but it's not just one case! -no but what I mean is that we,
01:15:53as police officers and magistrates, must be extremely careful, as Ms. Brodin said
01:15:57earlier, it is an accusation which is a very serious accusation so we take
01:16:03maximum precautions, we let's try to be as vigilant as possible and then more and more
01:16:08with regard to the child's words there is the police officer of course but more and more often
01:16:12we appeal through a requisition which is given to us. generally requested
01:16:17by the magistrate for an examination of the credibility of the child's words and it is received, the child is received
01:16:23completely outside the police service by a psychologist, by someone
01:16:28who will listen to him new and who will assess the credibility - why is he only heard for 2 or 3 hours?
01:16:35Do you have the feeling that a child under 8 years old can confide in at least
01:16:39two or 3 hours and confide such trauma to a doctor whom he will only see once
01:16:43even though we do not summon him? for example therapists he would have seen for 6 months? - No no but it
01:16:48's the credibility examination, that is to say we try to rely on a specialist
01:16:55other than a police specialist of course to know if what the child is saying is credible
01:17:00it is not mathematical obviously so we will have in support of our procedure
01:17:05for the magistrate's decision because it is the magistrate who will make the decision based on
01:17:08our report and then this credibility examination possible and from there
01:17:14he will make a decision - Martine Nice first and then we will talk about the networks - I would simply like to
01:17:19underline the fact that there is a habit which seems completely obvious to us to ask for an
01:17:24expertise on the credibility of the As a child, we never ask for
01:17:30the credibility assessment for the presumed person, it is always on the child that we - presumed guilty you mean
01:17:33or presumed innocent? -yes but we always ask it for the child to check if
01:17:40he is not lying, this question does not arise for adults, I know yes but we
01:17:45never ask it in this way -yes adults who are victims of rape have a credibility examination
01:17:51the same as that I am talking about on the side of people who are indicted who could
01:17:57be responsible, who could be responsible and implicated - by a psychiatric expertise
01:18:02- but not one not an expertise in credibility is still interesting - if you... - I haven't finished what I want to say
01:18:06excuse me and I listened to what was happening on this set and I said to myself that what
01:18:13mattered was is to be able to get closer to a better understanding of the perverse functioning
01:18:20of these adults who sexually use children in these pedophilia networks or these
01:18:24sectarian networks, that is to say that it is not, of course we need learn to know these better
01:18:30victims in order to be able to better protect them, but I believe that we truly lack knowledge
01:18:36of the almost hypnotic functioning of these people who exercise
01:18:42such a strong hold on the various participants, investigating judges that we say to ourselves but yes it is
01:18:46true it's the child who lies, listen, it's going very well because we are going to address
01:18:50the last part of this debate which is an essential question after the document that we are
01:18:54seeing, we have heard of sectarian organization we heard in the document
01:18:58of trafficking, of the murder of children, and of children in particular coming from abroad but but not only that,
01:19:03does that mean, here I turn to you George Glatz, who Are there
01:19:08organized child abuse networks in France? I am totally convinced of it and others as well,
01:19:15although we try to make people believe that there is no network, we still recently heard magistrates
01:19:18say that there was no network, I believe that, yes police officers too, I believe that to understand
01:19:24the phenomenon of pedophilia we must distinguish the three sectors. The first sector is
01:19:28classic pedophilia, intrafamilial sexual abuse, we don't dwell because it
01:19:34doesn't affect the network , there are also these pedophiles who attack a child's departure from school,
01:19:39this often ends tragically with the death of the child, we do not want to leave an embarrassing witness,
01:19:44it has not yet touched the network , third form so-called institutional pedophilia
01:19:49because obviously I mean those who like to appropriate children, the child's body,
01:19:54will look for professions which will put them in contact more easily with children then
01:19:59it is the heads of scout, possibly priests, police officers too, magistrates
01:20:05it's not me who says it, it's a prosecutor we'll come back to that, educators
01:20:11social workers and so on because it's the Trojan horse technique , when a pedophile
01:20:16manages to insinuate himself into an institution often at a bridgehead, he brings in
01:20:21other pedophiles then obviously if we want to work quietly in complete security
01:20:26to be sure of not being spotted, we go if possible to an institution for the mentally handicapped so there
01:20:32we will have no problem we will indeed be able to entrust us with children - but you confirm to us this evening that there are indeed
01:20:37networks in France - yes yes I will bring you some elements, I believe that
01:20:43it is necessary consider it at this time when we talk about network from the economic angle because it is a market
01:20:48a lucrative market, snuff movie cassettes sell between 10 and 20000 Swiss francs
01:20:54- what do you want say by snuff movies? - -the cassettes with real child death
01:21:00so I hear there was, we will come back to that, yes these cassettes already exist a few years ago
01:21:06in Belgium we discovered them but we actually talk about them enough little in the media
01:21:11but they exist, in fact Mrs. Tina Bernard who sent me this CDROM with several
01:21:19photos of children, yes it will be the occasion of one and who died told me that she also had
01:21:26a CD-ROM to send to us to bring it to justice, but unfortunately she
01:21:30died in rather mysterious circumstances and I did not, I was never able to produce
01:21:35this cassette to justice so I was saying from an angle economic a few
01:21:41years ago we witnessed these pedophiles going to the Far East to consume the child in Asia in Bangkok and
01:21:48then I hear if we make a business out of that we found a travel agency in Switzerland which
01:21:54was doing business of that but it's not very profitable because unfortunately these
01:21:59pedophiles can only go there once or twice a year so if we want to accelerate
01:22:04the market well we are going to bring the object of consumption closer to the consumer, namely children
01:22:11and there we organize networks around the Mediterranean, particularly in
01:22:16certain countries in Morocco, there are centers where pedophiles go because there we
01:22:22go there in an hour by plane, we can go there under the pretext of 'a business trip with the
01:22:27blessing of the family then we come back - Here you are still talking about travel but are there
01:22:30organized networks in France? -effectively there are organized networks, structures
01:22:36where we infiltrate a region where we have what we call protective fabrics
01:22:43in relation to the judiciary, in relation to the police and we need child breeding grounds, c it's the
01:22:49institutions, listen you seem, listen it's a dispatch from Reuters which is very recent
01:22:56The prosecutor of Nice Éric De Mongolfier, Nice is still a fairly hot region, affirmed
01:23:00that a case of suspicion of pedophile weighing on the magistrates had been deliberately suppressed
01:23:05by Justice, the prosecutor in office since... well, that's what the prosecutor De Mongolfier says about the case
01:23:11- so we're going to listen to Jean Yve Leganec who represents the police here and then Martine Bouillon
01:23:16for the magistrates - no, but I can't give you any information, I can't
01:23:22get you to give you a scoop this evening, personally, I've never
01:23:27had to deal with this kind of case, I've never had knowledge of the child supply network
01:23:34which actually sexual trips to Thailand all that I mean having
01:23:43arrested pedophiles and having discovered in their diary or plane tickets I know
01:23:50perfectly well that that is something that exists, I have never been aware of children
01:23:55on French territory who have been provided - are you telling us that it's
01:23:59like the Chernobyl cloud, that it stopped at the border?
01:24:02-not at all I didn't say that I don't know - when the children excuse me but
01:24:06when the children participate here because we call orgies where there are several
01:24:10people I mean it's the beginning all the same of a network constitution the affair listen let's be
01:24:16precise, let's be precise - listen to me I'm talking to you about things that I deal with on a daily basis
01:24:22and I haven't experienced any I'm not telling you that it doesn't exist, I'm simply telling you , you can see the Nice prosecutor
01:24:28said that magistrates had covered up cases of pedophilia - I have not practiced in Nice, I do not know what is happening in Nice
01:24:35I hear in France, let me tell you to say I know that - Mr. Glaz - I am not accusing you - I do not feel accused
01:24:42what I mean is that the problem our police problem is not these pedophile networks
01:24:49it is everyday and ordinary pedophilia - she doesn't pose a problem I know - [talk over]
01:24:54this one which exists in large numbers, it's also this one that we need to talk about - of course but
01:25:01you have mastered this one more or less - but why do you react so vehemently? no but because I want us to
01:25:07talk about things that are proven, not about..., if you actually provide me with proof
01:25:13If during an investigation - is that not isn't it up to you to go look for the proof?
01:25:16ah well no but yes indeed, but from the investigation which we are seized
01:25:22from from the investigation which we are seized of, if you give us information
01:25:26I mean we work every day in this field, then the
01:25:30pedophile networks of supply of images via the internet, all that, it exists, I agree with
01:25:34that, I'm not going to tell you that it doesn't exist, - I don't doubt that your work is very good, but some work very bad
01:25:39, that's what we mean - it's a problem, because information, when you're a police officer you have to look for it, and you don't go looking for it,
01:25:45I'm sorry, I was a substitute for minors in the Seine -Saint-Denis (suburban department) for a year
01:25:51there was not a single child who took drugs in Seine Saint Denis. Well I'm sorry, I haven't seen a single procedure of children taking drugs...
01:25:57I haven't seen any, that doesn't mean that there aren't any children taking drugs in the department.
01:26:02There are, obviously - I have a question - I say that there is a moment
01:26:07where you are telling us, I do my job well, I do not doubt it for a single moment
01:26:12I say that you you are not curious enough, that the pedophile networks you know perfectly well
01:26:16that they exist in France, they exist in Spain, they exist in Italy, they exist in Belgium
01:26:21and to go from Belgium - but it depends on what definition you give - you let me finish I will give you the definition
01:26:28to go from Italy to Belgium or from Spain to Belgium we don't go through France so I
01:26:33'm bad at geography but still France is there, in the middle
01:26:37- I didn't tell you that it didn't exist , ma'am - what is a network?
01:26:43it is a set, a group of people who have common interests in this case the
01:26:47common interests are the child and who do business, or not moreover
01:26:53who use the child in a network, that is- that is to say not at home, not in a very small committee
01:26:59but in a large committee, mafia networks but as long as we say [...]
01:27:07we are in a state of law, I cannot afford to say
01:27:11from the moment I don't have proof, that children circulate like that
01:27:18to be abused, what I know what I know madam indeed what I know is that pedophile images
01:27:26are circulating, so if that's what you call the network I totally agree with you
01:27:30The death of Pastor Doucé, still not clarified? but I'm talking to you about networks
01:27:41- and I can only talk to you about the issues that I know about, I can't talk to you about what
01:27:45I don't know about - Frédérique Brelin - just saying are there networks and what type of network
01:27:49it is difficult to establish since by definition we know them poorly
01:27:54but I find that what is important to say is that the situation is in
01:27:59collective awareness, the solution is in collective awareness for
01:28:0210 years in France, I find that there has been enormous progress being made and that now
01:28:07it is up to everyone to know that they must not only listen a little to the children, look around them
01:28:12and possibly have the courage to speak if he has the impression that there are abnormal things
01:28:16happening because it is true that the police cannot take matters into their own hands on
01:28:20simple rumors, but it is certain that there is a law of silence which lasted for years
01:28:25and years and it is up to each adult to know how to listen and possibly
01:28:31denounce the facts which appear to them to be criminal offenses. -Where is the political responsibility?
01:28:35because I heard this little sentence all the same: spinning mills are reserved for big traffickers
01:28:39so if you are not a big trafficker because you traffic in human flesh should you
01:28:44traffic? - I really believe that there is a lot to say about the investigation as it was carried out.
01:28:51I said it from the start, this investigation seems really strangely carried out, to
01:28:55say the least, with gaps and delays. , and big anomalies so I think we shouldn't -
01:29:00we come back, wait, we come back precisely to this investigation and we come back to the
01:29:06assertions of Marie and little Sylvie about murdered children because we heard
01:29:11very clearly in this report, on multiple occasions the children denounced
01:29:16these facts. Have you ever heard that there were in France, I mean in France,
01:29:22sacrifices and mass graves of children? but yes Florian Lafaye, a known case, Aurore Genard
01:29:28Le Micoulet also in Saint-Victor are known cases they say exactly, Florian says that
01:29:34he was shown children in coffins his testimony is totally
01:29:40credible according to all the experts who saw him and yet this child is on the run with his
01:29:45mother currently in the United States, Aurore is the same thing - were there open instructions?
01:29:49there were instructions but unfortunately actually carried out in Nice and then Nice as
01:29:54the prosecutor Mongolfier now finally says there were still cover-ups which meant
01:29:59that things did not come to fruition I can tell you that I hear the investigations at seen from
01:30:04multidisciplinary experts, the multidisciplinary commissions that we set up because
01:30:09that we are doing things a little seriously, in the multidisciplinary commissions which
01:30:12studied these files and they are thickly demonstrating that the work was excessively poorly done
01:30:16Martine Bouillon -In Nice I don't know uh but I know and I can tell you that 'in the
01:30:21Paris region I actually learned about mass graves of children, I'm weighing my words I won't say
01:30:27more because there is an investigation underway but there you go - no but what is said is extremely serious
01:30:31on this set it is extremely serious Frédéric Bredin, do you have a reaction?
01:30:36it's absolutely frightening but I would like to say maybe just a word about it why is it
01:30:44so difficult to hear, so difficult for everyone, it's because it's inconceivable
01:30:48yes and it's that's why on the one hand the victims, as we said during the first part of the show,
01:30:52the victims are not only children but they feel guilty and that's the problem
01:30:55with speech is that perversity fact that the guilt is reversed and that it is the
01:31:00victim who feels guilty and in addition possibly guilty of a family drama in addition to the fact
01:31:04of possibly being guilty of the death if I can say judicial of his parents
01:31:08so he there is a big difficulty for the child to speak and for those all police officers
01:31:15magistrates and all of us, when we hear these stories a big difficulty
01:31:21to hear because we are in the domain of the inconceivable we have to know how to go beyond that and
01:31:25to say that it exists -Jean Leganec -no but I must still say that I have 10 years of hindsight,
01:31:32it's been 10 years since I led a brigade of minors, in 10 years the evolution has been enormous, that is - to say
01:31:38that every year we see a 25% increase in the number of cases brought before us,
01:31:43that means that people are talking, people are reacting, so indeed we
01:31:50also have younger and younger children as victims, I remember when I arrived,
01:31:57we had a lot of cases which concerned teenagers and these were
01:32:02cases which were often very very serious cases now more and more as soon as there
01:32:06is suspicion as soon as there is something it has been reported and it is obvious that for children
01:32:14the consequences are less when it comes to simple touching, it is much less
01:32:19serious than when there has been sexual intercourse on several occasions over several months
01:32:24- the word from the end to Martine Nisse, I would like to ask you a question - it's not sexual relations, it's rape!
01:32:27-yes -just wait I have an important question to ask you, finally which seems
01:32:34very important to me for children, what are the after-effects for children when there has been
01:32:38rape, when there has been sexual abuse, but what In addition, I was going to say denial of suffering,
01:32:44that is to say that justice does not recognize them? These are children who put themselves in a
01:32:48situation of danger and death, these are suicidal children, these are children who risk
01:32:53being run over by constantly passing in front of cars, becoming
01:32:58unbalanced on the edge of the road. the window no longer being able to work at school they say
01:33:03I can't remember but I can't concentrate they also have an arousal that
01:33:08was triggered by the sexual assault which keeps them in a permanent stress which
01:33:13triggers sexualized behaviors in them, which also have consequences on their
01:33:19brothers and sisters or on other children, I mean the consequences are extreme apart
01:33:24from all the discomfort and somatization that the general practitioner was talking about, you
01:33:27have it all there , we were talking about drug addiction, we were talking about alcoholism, there are a lot
01:33:33of symptoms that follow this abuse if the child's word is not taken into account if there is no
01:33:37legal procedure because that moment when we recognize that this child has been the victim
01:33:42of something he can leave this place of victim - a last word George Glatz do
01:33:47you have the feeling that this impression of indulgence that we had in France towards the
01:33:52sexual crimes are gradually decreasing? - as far as the cases are concerned excuse me in
01:33:57classic quotes we are making great progress on the other hand for the networks it is not moving forward and
01:34:02really it is not moving forward enough I believe that political power must now
01:34:06really face up to its obligations and put truly highly independent cells to
01:34:13direct these investigations where we touch the network because the networks exist and I actually confirm
01:34:18the stories of mass graves I heard it 2 years ago in high French circles which affect Interpol
01:34:22Thank you to all of you for participating in this show here are now the books that
01:34:26helped us prepare for it Rape of an angel by Martine Bouillon published by Kalman Levy published in 1997
01:34:35childhood victim, how to deal with violence by Martine Nisse published in the archer's workshop at the end of 1999
01:34:41the drama of pedophilia by Liliane Binard and Jean-Luc Clouard at Albin Michel published in 1997
01:34:49finally a brochure which must be distributed in schools "passport
01:34:54to the country of prudence" published by the French Committee for Education and Health
01:35:00now regarding reporting this too is very important if you are witnesses
01:35:05or victims of acts of pedophilia a number is made available to you it is 119 hello
01:35:12childhood mistreated, I will remind you of 119 and then if you want to react to the document
01:35:17that you saw at the start of the France 3 broadcast,
01:35:24there are three lines at your disposal this evening and tomorrow: 01 56 22 65 90 and 01 56 22 65 91 and 01 56 22 65 92 your testimonies are of course
01:35:38welcome, this is the end of this broadcast, we will of course follow all these files in
01:35:44the different editions of the national editorial staff of France 3, have a good end of the evening
01:35:48good evening
01:35:53Child rape: the end of silence?