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00:00 (cash register dings)
00:02 For 17 years, I was the chair of the Academy's
00:05 Foreign Language Film Selection Committee.
00:07 And, you know, I would see 85, 100 foreign language films
00:12 a year and discover so many interesting filmmakers
00:17 who are often doing very well, you know,
00:20 in the world cinema right now.
00:23 But it's always been a, I don't know if it's a mission,
00:26 but it's always driven me crazy that American audiences
00:29 don't really, don't have the experience
00:32 of seeing subtitled films.
00:33 - Right.
00:34 - And it's just not a, it's too much work
00:36 or whatever it is.
00:37 And you think, no, it's not.
00:39 And look what you're missing.
00:41 (upbeat music)
00:43 - I find the world a bitter and complicated place.
00:53 And it seems to feel the same way about me.
00:56 I think you and I have this in common.
00:59 But don't get me wrong, you have your challenges.
01:03 You're erratic and belligerent
01:05 and a gigantic pain in the balls,
01:07 but you're not your father.
01:09 You're your own man.
01:10 Man, no, you're just a kid.
01:16 You're just beginning.
01:17 And you're smart.
01:19 You've got time to turn things around.
01:23 Yes, I know, the Greeks had the idea
01:28 that the steps you take to avoid your fate
01:30 are the very steps that lead you to it.
01:32 But that's just a literary conceit.
01:34 In real life, your history does not have to dictate
01:38 your destiny.
01:38 Oh, there's Mary.
01:40 Can you not tell Mary or anybody about--
01:43 - Entre nous.
01:44 This whole goddamn trip is entre nous.
01:46 Stand up.
01:47 - What?
01:48 - Stand up for the lady you bore.
01:50 - Welcome to Behind the Lens.
01:53 Today, wow, we have somebody who's been behind the lens
01:55 for a long time, making a lot of great movies,
01:59 including his latest, The Holdovers,
02:01 which is nominated for five Academy Awards,
02:04 including Best Picture of the Year,
02:07 for which he is personally nominated.
02:09 Please welcome Mark Johnson.
02:10 Hi, Mark.
02:11 - Thank you, Pete.
02:12 It's always a pleasure to see you.
02:13 - You too, you too.
02:14 And when I say you're nominated for Best Picture,
02:17 I looked at the list of the 10 nominees,
02:19 and there are multiple producers listed on each one of 'em,
02:23 except The Holdovers.
02:26 You are the old-style producer that's really the producer,
02:31 and I mean, that's rare now to see, you know.
02:35 - It is.
02:36 I don't know any other way to do it.
02:38 I love being part of the physical movie-making,
02:42 so I'm on the set all the time,
02:43 and then, you know, for some reason,
02:46 every time there's a screening in the editing room,
02:49 I go to it, so I end up, before a film's released,
02:51 I've probably seen it 45 times
02:53 in some different configuration,
02:55 and it's just, I don't know how I'm helpful to the director
03:00 or, quite frankly, to the movie if I'm not there,
03:03 you know, on a daily basis,
03:07 and there are lots of other producers
03:09 who do it different ways,
03:10 and I have real respect for them,
03:12 but this is the only way I know how to do it.
03:15 - And, you know, the Producers Guild,
03:17 which isn't a real guild in that they can't do
03:20 certain things like the directors and the writers
03:22 and all of that, but the Producers Guild
03:24 did invent the producer's mark
03:25 and really tried to define what a producer is on the set,
03:30 how many hours you're there and all of that,
03:32 which, because it was getting out of control,
03:33 they would hand out producing credits
03:35 to anybody that would give them a couple of dollars.
03:38 - Right, right, and that's exactly right.
03:40 If the credit said you were a producer,
03:43 then you were a producer,
03:44 and then the Producers Guild started to investigate it
03:47 and found out, I think, if I remember correctly,
03:50 you know better than I,
03:51 was Shakespeare in Love when Harvey Weinstein won an Oscar,
03:54 and somebody said, "Wait a minute, he's the studio head,
03:56 "he was never once on the set,"
03:58 or what did he have to do with producing it?
04:00 - That's true.
04:01 - And there are movies, I did a movie years ago,
04:05 Quiz Show, that has, I don't know,
04:09 might have 10 producers on it,
04:12 and Barry Levinson and I had originated the project,
04:16 and we actually took our names off,
04:18 thinking all these other sort of wannabe producers
04:21 would do the same, and they said, "No, it's great,
04:24 "now we have less names to compete with."
04:26 So. - Oh my God.
04:27 You know, that's funny you should say Quiz Show,
04:29 'cause I went through so many of your credits,
04:31 and I love Quiz Show, it's a great movie,
04:33 it was nominated for Picture and all of those,
04:36 and it wasn't listed on IMDb as a producing credit.
04:40 - That's right, we took our names off it.
04:42 - That's astonishing to me.
04:44 - And it's not, you know, Robert Redford,
04:46 there are producers on, people who have producing credit
04:49 on that movie who never met Robert Redford,
04:52 who directed the movie.
04:53 - That's unbelievable.
04:54 - And, you know, we did it not out of any,
04:59 no chagrin, no anger, and, you know,
05:02 Redford and everybody else tipped their hats to us,
05:06 but it ultimately did no good, and you're right,
05:09 I don't have credit as a producer of that movie.
05:12 - Live on on IMDb on that one, but many others,
05:15 when I mention all of these names, Donnie Brasco,
05:18 A Little Princess was one of your first, if not first,
05:21 all the stuff with Barry Levinson that you mentioned,
05:24 Bugsy Avalon, Good Morning Vietnam, Tin Man,
05:27 your Oscar winner, you won an Oscar for Rain Man,
05:30 again, sole producer there, you can go on,
05:34 Galaxy Quest, My Dog Skip, The Rookie, The Alamo,
05:39 The Guardian, The Notebook, which is a gigantic,
05:41 is that being turned into a Broadway musical or something?
05:44 - That's what they tell me, I have nothing to do with it.
05:47 But yes, I think a lot of movies are being turned
05:52 into Broadway plays or musicals, and I believe,
05:56 I think it's, I think it--
05:58 - Open sometime this year?
06:00 - Yeah, wow, and you have nothing to do with it?
06:02 - No. - No say?
06:03 You'll go see it, will they give you free tickets, or?
06:05 - I haven't asked, but I will definitely go see it.
06:09 - Oh, that's good, well that one lives on,
06:11 that was just a great movie that just,
06:13 like, do you know when you make a movie like that,
06:15 that it's gonna hit the Zeitgeist?
06:17 - Not quite, you never really know.
06:20 Even with Rain Man, when we were shooting,
06:22 and I'd have crew members turn to me and say,
06:25 while we were shooting it, this is gonna win an Oscar,
06:27 I'd say, what are you talking about?
06:28 I'm just hoping the film goes through the gate, you know?
06:32 It's that it's in focus, and so you never quite know,
06:35 and even with our television show, Breaking Bad,
06:38 it didn't, we just assumed it would be sort of a niche hit,
06:43 you know, it would be sort of the hit
06:45 for people would know about it,
06:46 but it'd never be a big popular show,
06:49 and all of a sudden, there it is.
06:50 - That one was interesting.
06:52 Once upon a time, I worked for AMC Networks
06:55 as sort of their Hollywood guy, it was an interesting job,
06:58 and that was before they had these hits
07:00 like Mad Men and Breaking Bad,
07:02 but I would do Q&As and panels
07:04 before those shows went on the air,
07:06 and I did Breaking Bad, and I'd go,
07:07 this is an interesting show, this is something.
07:11 Who knew by the end of it, after six seasons,
07:13 I was doing a Q&A with Bryan Cranston and saying,
07:16 I literally didn't wanna watch the last 10 episodes
07:18 'cause I didn't wanna attend.
07:20 That, when people said,
07:21 and I'm not saying this 'cause you're here,
07:23 what's your all-time favorite TV show?
07:25 I say there's two.
07:26 I Love Lucy and Breaking Bad are the two greatest
07:29 television shows I've ever seen, and I really mean it.
07:32 There was something about that show, Breaking Bad,
07:35 that just went and went, and then you did,
07:38 you topped yourself almost in a way,
07:40 and doing Better Call Saul.
07:41 - Yeah.
07:42 - You know, how do you, you know, you walk in--
07:44 - I don't wanna give credit to a lot of people.
07:47 Top of the list, certainly Vince Gilligan,
07:50 who I met when he was 22 in Richmond, Virginia,
07:52 and I was smart enough to say,
07:54 oh, I better hold onto this guy.
07:57 - Really? - And so he and I,
07:58 we've done any, we've done three movies together,
08:02 and three television shows, and he's just,
08:06 just, I don't even know who's in his category.
08:11 He's so original, and so,
08:14 just so satisfying as a storyteller.
08:17 - You spotted him when he was 22.
08:18 How do you do that as a producer?
08:20 How do you know?
08:21 - Well, I just read a script that he had written
08:23 straight out of NYU, and I said,
08:26 while it wasn't, it was hardly perfect,
08:29 just the ideas were so fresh,
08:32 and grabbing from the beginning, you say,
08:35 well, if this person has this in him,
08:40 there's more to come, and sure enough, there was.
08:44 For a while there, Vince was sort of,
08:47 not exactly knocking around Hollywood,
08:49 but nobody quite knew what he could do,
08:51 and then he just, he went to the X-Files for,
08:55 he worked in the X-Files for six or seven years,
08:57 and then came up with, he pitched Breaking Bad to me,
09:01 and by the way, I'd love to say,
09:04 oh, I knew that was a hit right from the very beginning.
09:07 I didn't really know, but I did know
09:09 it was really compelling.
09:11 - Yeah, it also had an interesting thing, too,
09:14 about third season or so, it went on Netflix,
09:17 all of a sudden, AMC pretty well throughout,
09:20 but the show was also seen in reruns
09:22 and things like that on Netflix, and all of a sudden--
09:25 - That's what made it a hit.
09:27 - Isn't that interesting?
09:28 Why do you think that is?
09:28 The streamers are just kings and filmmakers?
09:31 - They were able to reach an audience that AMC wasn't,
09:35 and they were able to promote it in a way that AMC wasn't.
09:38 It actually worked out for both companies.
09:43 - Yeah, in a big way, in a big way.
09:46 And then it started winning all these Emmys as series
09:49 and things like that, and more people.
09:51 The same thing happened with Schitt's Creek.
09:53 It's just an interesting phenomenon.
09:55 - And now you have the holdovers this year,
09:58 which has brought you back to the Oscars,
10:00 and is well-deserved.
10:02 And the kind of movie, literally, they don't make anymore.
10:08 I don't know how you got this made.
10:10 I mean, Alexander Payne is formidable, but is it tough?
10:14 Even with Alexander Payne to get financing,
10:17 you did this, Focus Features released it,
10:19 but they didn't make it.
10:21 - That's right.
10:22 Well, the answer is yes, it is tough.
10:24 And it's not an expensive movie at all.
10:27 And it is Alexander Payne, a proven,
10:31 one of America's, I think, most successful directors.
10:37 And yet it is, it's period,
10:42 it doesn't have a great big idea,
10:46 no whopping movie stars, so it's hard.
10:51 So we found, luckily we found Miramax,
10:55 and Bill Block, who was running Miramax at the time,
10:58 read it and said, "I'd love this,
10:59 "and I will finance it without distribution,"
11:02 which is very rare.
11:04 - Yeah.
11:05 - And so we said, "Sure," and very quickly made a deal
11:09 and went off to Massachusetts to shoot it.
11:13 And then when it was almost finished, we showed it,
11:17 we went to the Toronto Film Festival,
11:20 and we weren't part of the festival.
11:22 We were actually under the radar
11:24 and showed it to some distributors,
11:26 and Focus saw it and immediately put their hands up
11:30 and said, "We want this."
11:31 And so within 24 hours, a deal was made,
11:35 and we were, thank God, a Focus feature.
11:39 - And you said Toronto, so that's in September,
11:42 and movies get bought there,
11:43 and then they decide to push 'em into the Oscar campaign
11:48 right away to go up that,
11:50 although you weren't publicly in Toronto,
11:52 so maybe it was different, but you had to wait a year.
11:54 - Right, well, I was, and thank God I was wrong.
11:58 I wanted it to come out that year.
12:00 I said, "Let's scramble and then come out,"
12:01 and part of it had to do with,
12:03 most of it had to do with the other movies
12:04 that were coming out that time.
12:06 But also, I didn't wanna wait over a year
12:08 to have this movie that I was so excited about
12:11 get seen by anybody.
12:13 And luckily, Focus was much smarter than I and said,
12:17 "No, we need the time to get the campaign right
12:21 "and figure out how we're gonna go about selling this,"
12:24 and sure enough, they did.
12:27 And it was hard to wait,
12:29 because you have to sit on your hands for a year
12:32 and keep telling people, "What a great movie we have."
12:36 - I'm sure I went to you several times.
12:37 - You did, I was just gonna say.
12:39 - It's a sure mark.
12:40 - Months before it opened, you said,
12:42 "You've gotta see this movie.
12:43 "I'm gonna show you this movie.
12:45 "You've gotta see it."
12:46 That must be really hard.
12:47 You know what you got, and you just wanna get it out there.
12:50 - It is, it's very hard.
12:52 And I wanted you to see it,
12:54 because I most importantly value your opinion,
12:57 and you're such a film enthusiast,
13:00 and I just thought, I wanna share this with Pete.
13:03 And all I could do is say,
13:04 "Pete, you gotta see this movie."
13:06 And you say, "Great, when can I see it?"
13:08 I was telling him about eight, nine months.
13:10 (laughing)
13:12 - It's true, well, it held up.
13:13 It worked out in the end.
13:15 - It did, it sure did.
13:16 - Yeah, I finally did see it
13:17 at the Telluride Film Festival,
13:20 where Alexander comes every year,
13:22 even if he doesn't have a film, he just loves those.
13:25 And he said, he was sitting in this chair
13:28 a few months ago, too.
13:30 He said he saw a movie at Telluride, Le Marousse,
13:35 that was a French film from 1935,
13:37 and it just sort of stuck in his head.
13:39 And that sort of inspired the holdovers.
13:42 - Right, right. - Right, yeah.
13:44 - I've never seen that film.
13:45 He talks about it a lot.
13:47 He says it's very, very loosely inspired.
13:51 - And this is an original screenplay at the Oscars.
13:53 - Right, that's exactly right.
13:55 And because David Hemmingson came to Alexander
13:58 with a TV project, and Alexander said,
14:00 "Well, no, I'm not gonna do that,
14:02 "but I like your writing.
14:04 "Would you be interested in doing a thing
14:05 "about a teacher and a student?"
14:07 And it became the holdover.
14:10 - Sort of like you and Vince Gilligan.
14:12 - That's right.
14:13 - You can see it in the... (laughs)
14:14 - No, it is, again, if I have a talent as a producer,
14:18 it's spotting talent.
14:20 And there are certain people who say,
14:22 "This is undeniable."
14:23 And I'd walked through fire with and for Alexander and Vince
14:28 and a whole bunch of other filmmakers
14:31 I've had the pleasure to work with.
14:33 - No less than Barry Levinson.
14:34 - That's right.
14:35 - So many, so many movies.
14:37 What makes a partnership like that, by the way?
14:40 - Well, we did probably 12 films together,
14:44 and part of it was we hit it off, we agreed so much.
14:48 I think our aesthetic was very similar.
14:50 It wasn't a lot, it wasn't very wordy.
14:54 It was just all very sort of inferred.
14:57 And when he was finishing "Tin Man,"
15:00 I was in Thailand putting together "Good Morning, Vietnam."
15:05 And so he sort of trusted me to know
15:07 that I was putting it together in a way
15:10 that he would respect.
15:12 But partnerships are interesting.
15:15 I think one of the reasons Alexander and I
15:19 work so well together, we're both very low-key
15:22 and neither one of us is mercurial or gets angry
15:27 unless it's really extreme.
15:30 Some people, some directors, some very good directors
15:33 like to work from a place of chaos
15:35 and a certain amount of fear.
15:38 Alexander's not one of them.
15:41 - No, he's never been that way.
15:44 Although, the other movie that you produced for him,
15:47 "Downsizing," which I remember I had him out
15:50 to my screening series with that.
15:51 I really like "Downsizing," whatever people say about it.
15:55 And it was his one movie that didn't hit
15:58 with audiences or critically.
16:02 But it was also his most expensive movie.
16:04 - Right, it's the first time he's worked
16:07 with elaborate visual effects, second unit and all of that.
16:11 And while we're both very proud of the movie,
16:14 I don't think he's in a hurry to go back
16:16 and do a big effects-heavy movie.
16:19 - It's sort of not what he's done in his career.
16:22 He's a humanist, if ever I've seen one.
16:25 - Well, there ought to be a way to be a humanist
16:27 within that context.
16:28 Because a good director is a good director
16:32 and she or he will tell you what they can do.
16:35 So just because somebody has been successful in Westerns
16:38 and then they say, "Well, I'm gonna do
16:40 "this science fiction thing," doesn't mean they can't.
16:43 But it does warrant a conversation.
16:48 (laughing)
16:49 - He made the holdovers, I didn't think about it
16:53 at the time, of his eight films,
16:54 the only period piece he's done.
16:56 It's set in 1971 and he's never done a period movie before,
17:01 which is interesting. - That's interesting.
17:03 - This was the first, and I think he was playing
17:06 with the period right in this.
17:07 I mean, you had all those logos at the beginning of it
17:11 and a throwback to the kind of films
17:14 Hal Ashby might have made or people might have made
17:16 in that period, and that looked like fun to do.
17:19 - It was a lot of fun to do, and I think you're right.
17:22 I think it was not just a period film
17:24 that took place in the period, but he wanted to make it
17:27 feel as though it had been made in that period.
17:30 Somehow the negative had been stuck on a shelf
17:33 and somebody just discovered it.
17:35 - I know it had even scratches, it looked like.
17:38 - It has a copyright of, I think it's '79, is that right?
17:43 Anyhow, it has an old copyright on it.
17:49 In the beginning, the beginning logo,
17:52 at the end it has the actual copyright.
17:53 - Oh, that's interesting.
17:55 - And as you know, it's a fake Bocas logo
17:59 and a fake Miramax logo with the little jitty,
18:03 little jaunty little song that goes along with it.
18:05 - Great score, by the way, by Mark Orton.
18:08 It really felt like those movies of the time.
18:11 - And I thought it was a really good, successful integration
18:14 with the music of the time and also his score,
18:18 so it was somewhat seamless.
18:19 - Yeah, and just an incredible casting
18:22 to see Paul Giamatti back, and to see him finally getting
18:25 what he so deserves, awards-wise,
18:28 and what's happening with him.
18:31 'Cause sideways, 20 years ago, he wasn't even nominated.
18:34 - Which baffles me, I don't get it.
18:36 By the way, a crazy personal note,
18:39 I worked with Paul, he worked one day
18:42 when he was just starting out on Donnie Brasco,
18:45 a movie I produced.
18:46 - Yes, wow.
18:48 With Al Pacino.
18:49 - Well, he has this scene with Johnny Depp
18:51 when he's trying to explain what forget about it means.
18:54 (laughing)
18:56 - That's great, and there was another guy
18:57 that was just sort of going from movie to movie
19:00 and like, you know, a knockabout actor and things.
19:03 You were, too, before we go,
19:05 I have to go back to your beginnings
19:07 'cause I find it fascinating.
19:09 You actually started in spaghetti westerns as an actor.
19:12 - I grew up in Spain, it's hard to believe.
19:14 I went to high school in Madrid,
19:15 and at the time, they were making a lot
19:17 of American and British movies in Europe, in Spain,
19:20 a lot of westerns.
19:22 And somehow I got on a set and they cast me
19:24 because I looked American, whatever,
19:27 and I did a western that is available,
19:31 I'm not gonna give you the title,
19:32 but it was available on Universal Collection.
19:36 And I was 16, I think, at the time.
19:40 And at the time, the spaghetti westerns,
19:43 they didn't film with direct sound
19:45 because the actors were American, Spanish,
19:48 Italian, whatever, so everybody spoke in her,
19:51 his language, and then it was dubbed later.
19:53 - Oh, wow, that's wild.
19:54 Well, that must have been, and then you were in,
19:56 you were actually in David Lean's Dr. Zhivago?
20:00 - I was, well, I was a kid.
20:01 I was an extra in it.
20:03 - Wow. (laughs)
20:05 - Can you imagine being on a David Lean set?
20:07 - No. (laughs)
20:09 - And, you know-- - That's incredible.
20:10 - Seeing Julie Christie and Omar Sharif is,
20:12 I mean, that was-- - But I was a kid.
20:15 I had no idea what I was doing.
20:16 - 1965, and then it all, like, you know,
20:19 you just got into the Director's Guild
20:21 and worked with Paul Mazursky and--
20:23 - Yep, I have two people who are incredibly important
20:26 to my career.
20:27 One was Billy Friedkin and the other is Mel Brooks,
20:31 who just believed in me along the way and moved me up.
20:35 - With high anxiety and-- - That's right.
20:37 And then I did, started with Friedkin on Sorcerer.
20:41 - Oh, which is great.
20:43 It was so underrated for so long,
20:45 and the people have rediscovered that movie.
20:46 - Crazy, crazy gifted director.
20:49 - I know, amazing.
20:50 - I love the man, but what I'm so happy is
20:53 that we're talking about the holdovers,
20:55 because it has, I find it so,
20:58 it's so connecting with people right now.
21:00 - I know. - And not just because
21:01 of the times, or as you say,
21:04 they don't make them like the same,
21:05 or what they maybe don't make right now
21:08 is movies about, just about characters,
21:10 and they're willing to stay with characters,
21:12 and in this case, three misfits
21:15 who have no reason to be together,
21:17 and it's so life-affirming when you think that
21:22 what each one of these characters brings to the other,
21:25 and so what they discover about the other character,
21:28 but probably more importantly,
21:29 what they discover about themselves.
21:31 - Yeah, which is, you could write the marketing copy.
21:35 That's perfect.
21:36 That is what this movie's about.
21:37 It's about family, and all families
21:40 have different definitions, and that's it.
21:43 - And they're all orphans,
21:45 because she has been left, obviously, by her son.
21:50 - Dave Einstein. - Angus.
21:50 - Randolph's so fabulous.
21:52 - Angus, his mother and stepfather have decided
21:57 to go off and have their own Christmas vacation
21:59 and leave him at school.
22:01 And then Paul Hunnam has sort of been an outcast
22:05 for most of his life.
22:06 - Amazing.
22:07 - You know, I think that's what registers with it.
22:10 I mean, it's a very human story,
22:12 and that's what's made it now a BAFTA nominee,
22:16 an Oscar nominee, a SAG nominee.
22:19 I mean, you know, all season long,
22:22 it's survived and moved,
22:25 and people are continuing to discover it,
22:27 which is really interesting.
22:29 They just re-released it a week ago.
22:31 - Yeah.
22:32 - And, you know.
22:33 - By the way, I think, you know,
22:34 I've been doing this for a while,
22:35 and we've talked about some big titles
22:37 that I've been involved in.
22:39 I have never had the reaction from any movie
22:42 that I'm having from this one,
22:43 and hearing from people I either don't know
22:46 or have forgot I knew, you know, 10 years ago,
22:49 and say, "Hey, I just saw the holdover and saw your name,
22:52 "and tell me what a phenomenal experience it is."
22:56 And for a producer, for anybody involved in making a movie,
23:00 that's just music to your ears.
23:02 - Yeah.
23:03 And you're a real producer.
23:04 I didn't even get into all the Argentinian stuff
23:07 that you've got your name on as a producer.
23:09 Really, this is like one of three movies you have in 2023
23:13 that were made, you know, in Argentina.
23:16 I now know you speak Spanish,
23:18 so I can see how you can do that.
23:20 But you are producing around the world.
23:22 It's pretty extraordinary, and, you know.
23:25 - Well, as you know, for 17 years,
23:27 I was the chair of the Academy's
23:29 Foreign Language Film Selection Committee.
23:31 I've just, perhaps because I grew up in Europe,
23:33 but I just have always loved foreign filming,
23:37 and, you know, I would see, because of the committee
23:41 and just my own personal taste,
23:43 85, 100 foreign language films a year,
23:46 and discover so many interesting filmmakers
23:49 who are often doing very well, you know,
23:52 in the world cinema right now.
23:55 But it's always been a, I don't know if it's a mission,
23:58 but it's always driven me crazy
24:00 that American audiences don't really,
24:03 don't have the experience of seeing subtitled films.
24:06 - Right.
24:07 - And it's just not a, it's too much work,
24:09 or whatever it is, and you think, no it's not,
24:12 and look what you're missing.
24:14 - That's exactly right.
24:15 Well, you're bringing them every which way, you know.
24:18 I don't know how you have any time during the day
24:20 to do anything else, but I do know you well
24:22 from when you headed the foreign language,
24:24 and you were passionate about that,
24:26 and bringing those movies to audiences
24:29 that would never see them.
24:31 So, that's good, that's a good thing.
24:33 Mark Johnson, thank you so much for joining us
24:35 on Behind the Lens.
24:37 - Thank you, Peter, it's a real pleasure.
24:39 (upbeat music)
24:41 (upbeat music)