Guy, Dan, and Bleakley Financial Group CIO Peter Boockvar discuss central banks around the world hiking rates (1:50), Wall Street participants with diverging views on the stock market (6:18), moats around big tech (8:29) and how the market could get out of this period unscathed (14:33).
Later, Peter talks with Kimco Realty CEO Conor Flynn about his journey into the real estate industry (17:00), transforming Kimco’s portfolio of shopping centers to become more competitive (19:39), why grocery stores are a critical anchor for their properties (20:32), the cities and markets Peter is most bullish on () Kimco’s successful investment in Albertsons (34:28), and how inflation is impacting consumer traffic & purchases (41:00).
Later, Peter talks with Kimco Realty CEO Conor Flynn about his journey into the real estate industry (17:00), transforming Kimco’s portfolio of shopping centers to become more competitive (19:39), why grocery stores are a critical anchor for their properties (20:32), the cities and markets Peter is most bullish on () Kimco’s successful investment in Albertsons (34:28), and how inflation is impacting consumer traffic & purchases (41:00).
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NewsTranscript
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01:19 [music]
01:20 You're listening to a bonus episode of On the Tape.
01:24 I'm Guy Adami.
01:25 I'm always joined by Dan Nathan and our good friend, Peter Buckvar of Bleakly Advisors
01:29 and The Book Report.
01:31 We're going to give you a preview of what's to come in the markets this week, and later,
01:36 check out a great conversation with Peter and Connor Flynn, CEO of Kimco Realty.
01:41 Peter, how are you, my man?
01:43 Hey, Guy.
01:44 Hi, Dan.
01:45 Thanks for having me on.
01:46 It's always great to have you back.
01:47 Last week, interesting week in the market.
01:49 Lots taking place.
01:50 Obviously, for me, the biggest news was an anticipated 75 basis point hike by the ECB,
01:57 but as anticipated as that was, that's the largest hike in the history of the ECB.
02:02 It comes at a time when Europe is an absolute mess.
02:06 Through my lens, I say, "Wow, think about the decisions they had to make.
02:10 As bad as things are in terms of the economy, they still think inflation is such a huge
02:15 problem that despite the economy, they had to make that race."
02:19 That speaks volumes as to what's going on in the world.
02:22 That's the case with all these central banks.
02:24 The ECB, they have inflation north of 9%.
02:27 In the UK, it potentially can reach 20% with the reset of the energy caps.
02:33 They put themselves in a very awkward position of waiting as long as they did, and now they're
02:37 trying to play catch up, and there are consequences to that.
02:40 On the flip side with Europe, negative rates essentially killed off the profitability of
02:45 their banking system.
02:47 This may be at least as a lifeline to the European banking sector, which you can't have
02:52 a healthy economy unless you have banks that are profitable and willing to lend.
02:56 That could be a potential positive within this, but there's no doubt Europe's in a recession.
03:01 That recession will deepen because of the spike in energy prices as we get through the
03:05 winter.
03:06 Just because we get through the winter doesn't mean 2023 is going to be a bright spot.
03:10 A lot of that, of course, will depend on how Putin manages the situation from here.
03:15 It's amazing we had this, what, nearly 10% decline in the S&P 500 from those mid-August
03:20 highs.
03:21 We bounced a little bit over the last few trading days here.
03:23 I think part of the narrative is possibly that the Fed, after they go 75 basis points
03:29 at their meeting the week after next, that maybe they take a bit of a backseat and let
03:34 some of the other central banks around the world play a little catch up, but also at
03:38 a time where we've seen crude oil rollover, we've seen the Baltic dry freight index rollover,
03:44 we've seen lumber roller, we've seen a lot of these inflationary inputs cool out a little
03:48 bit.
03:49 We're going to get CPI this week.
03:50 If that is a softer reading, maybe the Fed has done the job in the near term and then
03:55 they can take their foot off the pedal.
03:57 Then we see, as it relates to markets, possibly there's some room to run as we saw over the
04:03 course of the summer, when again, the narrative was that the Fed is going to need to pivot.
04:08 Now, just one quick point.
04:10 You just spoke about a recession in Europe.
04:13 I think guys in the same camp as me, I just don't know how we could have a deep prolonged
04:18 recession in Europe and not have it affect the US right now.
04:22 I agree.
04:23 I'll take that in a few different parts.
04:25 The positive, yes, is inflation is definitely moderating.
04:28 If you look at even the TIPS market, one-year break-evens are down to 1.7%.
04:35 That has been tackled in a way.
04:37 That inflation, I still believe, is going to be sticky, persistent, and well above that
04:41 1.2%, but those very elevated levels, we're working our way through that.
04:46 A lot of that is because of the slow economy and the recession that we're either in or
04:51 we're headed to.
04:53 When you talk about the markets, that is the next hurdle that we now need to clear, is
04:59 the earnings come down.
05:01 In the beginning of the year, S&P earnings were about 220.
05:03 I'm relying on my Bloomberg terminal for these stats.
05:07 Looking into the reports of the second quarter, right at the end of June, that was up to about
05:12 230.
05:13 Now, we're down to about 226.
05:16 You have what I believe will be the trajectory to be lower than that.
05:20 Still the big question of what's the right multiple to pay on this market?
05:24 To me, still the frothiness in the market, and you guys have talked about it on your
05:28 podcasts and I completely agree, it's the high multiples and the money that's still
05:33 being parked in these high beta, big cap tech companies, and Apple and Microsoft that are
05:39 still trading at a high 20s multiple for what is now more modest growth.
05:44 Microsoft, and I have no position in it, but Dell and HP are big customers of theirs, and
05:50 they're telling you things are slowing down, and PC and even enterprise.
05:53 We know Apple is being challenged by, yes, they have the upgrade, but a quarter of Apple's
05:59 business is in Europe.
06:01 If you're wondering how you're going to pay your heating bill, you're not necessarily
06:04 upgrading to the Apple 14.
06:06 I think we need the next stage is the earnings come down and evaluation reset, more notably
06:13 in those bigger cap names, because other swaths of the market have already re-rated dramatically.
06:18 There are plenty of cheap stocks out there that maybe will be more immune to a further
06:24 decline in the markets relative to those big cap names.
06:27 Last Thursday, Scott Minard was on the overtime with Scott Wapner.
06:31 I think it was on with Scott.
06:32 I apologize if it was somebody else, but he basically said stocks could go down anywhere
06:37 between 20 and 30% this fall from the levels that we're at now, which obviously is pretty
06:43 dramatic.
06:44 I juxtapose that with there's still some people out there, Tom Lee specifically, who I admire
06:48 a great deal, still thinks 5,100 is in the cards at some point.
06:52 I find it fascinating, Peter, that there's such a divergent range of thoughts in terms
06:57 of this market.
06:59 Quite frankly, they both could wind up being right in this really weird dystopian world
07:04 that we find ourselves in where if stocks go down quickly enough and precipitously enough,
07:10 it might force the Fed's hand a little bit that might get us the 5,100 by sometime early
07:15 next year.
07:16 Thoughts on that?
07:18 There's this belief that when the Fed stops hiking, everything will be fine.
07:24 I wish it was going to be that easy because we're still going to have to deal with this
07:29 economic slowdown and what I believe will be a more notable earnings decline.
07:33 The Fed stopped hiking in early 2000.
07:38 They started cutting in early 2001.
07:41 That wasn't really a big help to stocks.
07:44 The Fed stopped cutting in the summer of '06 and yet we had further to run, but we know
07:50 what we were driving ourselves into.
07:53 Keep in mind that just because they stopped cutting, QT is still going to be going on
07:59 and the Fed has made it clear they're not going from ending the hikes to then going
08:03 to cutting because inflation is still going to remain relatively sticky.
08:08 That's something that we're used to.
08:09 The Fed hikes us into recession and then they start cutting.
08:12 That's going to be somewhat different this time.
08:14 They're going to stop hiking, but that doesn't mean we're going to immediately get to a pivot
08:18 of cutting.
08:19 I still think that there's a multiple re-rate and the market's still trading in 18 times
08:24 earnings for the S&P.
08:25 Obviously, there are other parts of the market that are much cheaper.
08:28 The Russell 2000 value stocks index is trading at 10 or 11 times earnings.
08:33 S&P is not going to bottom at 18 times earnings.
08:36 I just don't see that.
08:37 It's interesting.
08:38 We're just talking about these mid-20s multiples for these mega cap tech names.
08:43 The point is that we haven't seen a revision downward in expectations for earnings yet
08:49 in the Apple and the Microsoft.
08:51 We'll throw Google in there.
08:54 You could throw Tesla in there, but that one is going to be a bit of an outlier.
08:58 We've said that a lot.
08:59 This market really can't bottom until there's an absolute bloodletting in a name like that.
09:04 When you think about an Apple and Microsoft, you think of the monopolies they have, the
09:08 moats that they have, the cash that they have.
09:11 Even with the re-rating that we've seen across tech in 2022, again, Apple is expected to
09:18 have high single-digit earnings growth here, which might prove to be high.
09:23 It's trading about 25 times or so.
09:25 I guess you and I have gone back and forth on this topic.
09:28 You were on Fast Money a few weeks ago.
09:30 You were talking about value.
09:32 There's plenty of opportunities to put money in places.
09:35 I still think that those names are going to attract a lot of capital for all the reasons
09:40 I mentioned before, which might keep their valuations well into the 20s in PE terms,
09:48 which might actually, to your point that the S&P you just said won't bottom out at 18 times,
09:53 what actually might bottom out at a much higher PE multiple than prior cycles because we've
09:59 never had the sort of concentration in S&P earnings.
10:02 Is that fair to say and in market cap terms?
10:05 I certainly don't want to discount that possibility for sure.
10:09 Let's just take Apple and Microsoft again.
10:12 Can you go from a high 20s multiple to even 20 with no change in the fundamentals of that
10:17 business because of rates staying higher than longer and inflation being higher than what
10:25 we're used to?
10:26 Will they get to a valuation reset for those even if their businesses don't change?
10:30 You look at Microsoft, you want to talk about moats.
10:33 In 2000, they probably had 85% of the PC software business.
10:37 There was no bigger moat than Microsoft at that time, but it went through 13 years of
10:42 multiple digestion, you can say, because earnings and profits grew every single year all throughout
10:47 the 2000s.
10:49 I think you bring up the right point is where is that right multiple?
10:51 None of us know really the answer to it right now.
10:54 I just think that when all is said and done, that multiple is going to end up lower because
10:59 we are just in a higher interest rate environment.
11:02 A higher interest rate environment for longer is going to change the multiple in everything.
11:07 I was at Kara Swisher's Code Conference last week, Peter.
11:10 In about 48 hours, you had Sundar Pichai, the CEO of Alphabet.
11:14 You had Andy Jazzy, the CEO of Amazon, Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple all speak.
11:19 It was interesting just reading the body language of all of them, the cross-currents, the headwinds
11:24 to growth, all these sorts of things.
11:26 The strong dollar, disrupted supply chains, deglobalization, shooting war in Europe, the
11:31 potential for further disruption to supply chains in Asia, if there's some dust up between
11:36 China and Taiwan.
11:38 All of that, I guess the longer we go into this year, as we get towards the end of next
11:42 year, then we start just not thinking a whole heck of a lot about 2022 and really start
11:47 factoring in how long of a slowdown we have and when we come out.
11:50 Again, we know this as strategists, as investors, as traders, but the body language I got from
11:56 those three CEOs, which have a combined market cap of $6 trillion, over $1.2 trillion in
12:03 combined sales, wasn't exactly that negative, to be honest with you.
12:07 They didn't seem like a bunch of CEOs.
12:10 I'm sure there's plenty of things that keep them up at night, but it just didn't seem
12:14 that they're about to go into a protracted recession as far as they care about this stuff,
12:19 a bear market relative to their stock prices.
12:22 I think what makes a company great is those that look out multiple years, and particularly
12:30 the Code Conference.
12:32 You tell me, since you were there, people want to hear what their big picture vision
12:36 is and not necessarily, "Well, how's the current quarter going?
12:41 Are you going to have to clip earnings estimates like Microsoft did because of FX?"
12:47 Maybe that is one of the reasons.
12:48 Also, there's still a month left in the quarter.
12:51 None of these companies are immune to an economic slowdown.
12:53 You take Amazon's AWS business compared to Microsoft's cloud business.
12:58 Microsoft's cloud business is predominantly enterprise.
13:01 They're going to have better visibility and not be as susceptible to a broader economic
13:06 slowdown than Amazon's AWS business, which has a lot of small companies.
13:11 If you open up a 20-person business, you're probably using AWS.
13:17 If you're having a very difficult time here in the economy, if you have to shut down,
13:21 well, you're going to shut down your AWS subscription.
13:23 I think that there's economic sensitivity that all these companies are experiencing.
13:28 I think a conference like this is, their job is to go there and tell people what the next
13:33 five to ten years are going to look like rather than what the short-term is going to be.
13:38 Getting back to the multiple conversation is, we've seen this.
13:41 We've all been doing this for a long time.
13:43 What turns a growth company into a value stock is just a slowdown in that growth rate.
13:48 It's a slowdown in that growth rate that makes people rethink that multiple.
13:53 Apple for years to come will be this dominant company, but their growth rate is naturally
13:57 going to slow.
13:58 I know you guys have talked about it.
14:00 Their revenue growth in the prior quarter was 2%.
14:03 Do you pay 27 times earnings for a company that's growing mid-single digits?
14:07 Maybe you do.
14:08 You're paying a high multiple for Coke, Procter & Gamble, and maybe Apple will settle into
14:12 that consumer product type multiple, but you could get into a market cycle where it's 20
14:18 times instead of 28 times.
14:19 If that's the case, the stock's down 25%, 30% in just a multiple re-rate.
14:25 Getting to my point earlier, it's still a consumer products company that they need to
14:29 sell.
14:30 It's high-priced products, and your European customer is crimped.
14:35 It'll be interesting to see how the Chinese consumer responds in this quarter and what
14:39 Apple has to say about that business as well.
14:41 Peter, what's the scenario where the market gets through this period of time relatively
14:46 unscathed, and quite frankly, where we are right now is relatively unscathed in terms
14:51 of the broader markets?
14:52 I think it's two things, a continuation of this downward trend in inflation and the ability
14:58 of the US economy to be able to grow through a higher rate environment.
15:03 And when I say higher, I mean higher rate, not high.
15:06 We obviously have still very low interest rates, but a higher rate environment than
15:10 we've seen for the last couple of, well, I don't want to say decades, but at least
15:13 the last decade where we lived on zero rates and the housing market lived on a 2.5%, 3%
15:21 mortgage rate.
15:22 And now we're in this new rate world, and what is the potential growth rate for the
15:26 next five years in this higher rate environment?
15:30 If we can continue to power through and absorb this rate shock and companies can get still
15:36 a good return on their invested capital at a higher borrowing rate, and then maybe we
15:42 can get through this okay.
15:44 And I think that's going to be a test.
15:45 The US economy is about to be tested with this rate shock.
15:49 Putting aside inflation, what the Fed's going to do, we've had a rate shock.
15:52 And if you're a company that's barred floating rate, and you just saw a range of basis point
15:57 rise in your interest expense, and your cash flows are now slowing, are you going to be
16:01 able to manage through that?
16:03 And we're going to about to see that test over the coming quarters.
16:06 When we come back, Peter's conversation with Conor Flynn, CEO of Kimco Realty.
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16:38 iConnections is the world's largest capital introduction platform in the alternative investment
16:43 industry.
16:44 They bring the asset management community together through a membership platform that
16:48 lets allocators and managers meet and connect both physically and virtually.
16:53 Over 3,000 allocators and 600 managers are part of the iConnections community, overseeing
16:58 nearly $48 trillion and $16 trillion in assets, respectively.
17:03 iConnections first came to our attention in 2020 during the first wave of the pandemic.
17:08 That's when their first event, Funds for Food, became the largest virtual cap intro event
17:12 in history.
17:13 To date, they've donated nearly $2.5 million to charities.
17:16 They are also the people behind the alternative investment industry's largest and most exciting
17:20 in-person events.
17:22 To find out more about iConnections events and members-only platform, visit iConnections.io.
17:31 I'm Peter Buchfar.
17:32 This is another episode of the Book Report CEO Podcast.
17:36 Today we're going to go off the tape with Connor Flynn.
17:38 He's the chief executive officer with Kimco Realty, which is the largest publicly traded
17:44 owner of open-air shopping centers.
17:47 Connor, thanks for joining me today.
17:49 Peter, thanks for having me.
17:50 Pleasure to be here.
17:51 So before we get into details about your business, we just want to hear first of how you got
17:57 to this position.
17:58 I know you, after school, did you go right into real estate?
18:01 Was there something first and was there always a passion for real estate?
18:05 It's a good question, Peter.
18:07 I always had, I guess, real estate in my bones growing up.
18:10 My parents are both born and raised in Ireland, immigrated over to the United States.
18:14 And I think as part of that culture, real estate or property as it's known in the European
18:18 side is part of, I think, the DNA.
18:20 And so I did have a fleeting interest in investment banking.
18:24 So I did a investment banking internship when I was in college and then quickly realized
18:28 that my passion really was focused on the property side of it, looking at assets and
18:34 seeing all the hard work from a before and after transformation take place.
18:38 And that's where I sort of threw myself.
18:39 So right out of school, I was lucky enough to work for Kimco.
18:42 At that time, I was just sort of rotating between different groups.
18:45 I started in the acquisitions group, then moved into leasing and was fortunate enough
18:50 to have a lot of great mentors along the way that shepherded me in the right direction.
18:54 I think everybody that reaches a certain part of their career has a lot of people to thank.
18:58 It starts with my parents and then it goes from there.
19:01 But fortunately, Kimco has continued to give me a tremendous amount of opportunity, room
19:07 for growth.
19:08 And I've been on the West Coast living in California.
19:10 That's where I really sort of earned my chops, redeveloping assets in the Bay Area, moved
19:15 back to New York City to do grad school while working in New York City.
19:18 I went to Columbia and did my master's in real estate development.
19:22 And then when I finished that program, an opportunity to run the West Coast popped up
19:26 at Kimco.
19:27 They moved me back to the West Coast.
19:29 And then after that, an opportunity to become COO of the company popped up.
19:34 And so they moved me back to New York.
19:36 And since then, the previous CEO retired and I stepped up into the CEO role.
19:40 So a nice way for me to sort of learn the business from the ground up through all different
19:45 iterations and parts of the organization in the regional structure and then move back
19:49 to corporate.
19:50 And that's where I am today.
19:52 And much easier to just work for one company and climb that ladder, which you certainly
19:56 did.
19:57 The old school company man, I guess.
19:58 There's not many left.
19:59 I think most people these days think two years is a long tenure.
20:02 I've been very lucky.
20:03 Worked for some incredible people and surround myself with incredible people.
20:08 That's really helped me.
20:09 And Kimco has a long history.
20:10 From what I read, this goes back 60 years, the beginning of it.
20:14 That's right.
20:15 Yeah, we're very proud of our history.
20:16 Actually, the founder and chairman, Milton Cooper, is sort of renowned as the founder
20:20 of the modern REIT era, which is now over a trillion dollars business.
20:23 We were the first ever REIT to go public in '91 and sort of set the stage for a slew of
20:28 many, many REITs in many different categories now that are public and widely accepted.
20:33 And now you guys have over 530 shopping centers around the country in almost 30 states.
20:40 And I know you have interests in about 27 more.
20:44 Now, you had made an acquisition last year, Winegarden, that added about 150 shopping
20:49 centers.
20:50 What was attractive about Winegarden that you did the deal?
20:54 And was it a geographical decision that got you into certain markets that you were not
20:58 in beforehand?
20:59 Or is it sort of fill-ins to existing markets that you had?
21:02 Yeah, so when I became CEO, we did a pretty significant strategic shift and moved our
21:07 portfolio to be focused on first-ring suburbs in the major metro markets, so concentrating
21:13 in where we thought supply and demand was in balance or in the landlord's favor.
21:18 And we also shifted the portfolio away from commodity power centers, is what we call them.
21:23 Power centers is typically your category killer lineup.
21:25 So think big box after big box after big box of your who's who of who dominates categories.
21:32 And we shifted away from the power center to more of the grocery-anchored shopping center,
21:37 because we felt like that was more resilient and felt like that was really the growth vehicle
21:41 for the organization going forward.
21:42 We're 80% grocery-anchored today.
21:45 The other 20% is a mix of power centers that are in different phases of redevelopment.
21:50 The nice part about power centers is there's more acreage, there's more land to work with.
21:54 So your highest and best use there might be something else other than retail.
21:57 And that's where we've been focusing on entitling the highest and best use.
22:00 So for us, it's really focused on apartments.
22:03 And we've entitled over 5,000 apartment units, activated over 2,000.
22:07 And our goal for over the next three years is to get to 15,000.
22:10 So we're well on our way of achieving those goals.
22:13 And the portfolio transformation has really helped Kimco outperform the peer group over
22:17 the last three and five years.
22:19 And so when the Winegarden opportunity presented itself, it was very fortunate the timing was
22:24 almost ideal, because we saw the recovery in our own shopping centers, predominantly
22:30 in the Sunbelt where Winegarden was based, really starting to accelerate.
22:35 And it was in the midst of the pandemic when everybody was hands up, sort of worrying about
22:39 the sky is falling.
22:40 And we saw the fundamentals really coming back strong for grocery-anchored shopping
22:43 centers.
22:44 And that's exactly what Winegarden owned in the best markets in the Sunbelt.
22:48 We saw the Sunbelt really accelerating at that time and thought that that would be a
22:52 unique opportunity to combine the organizations and give us really a strategic advantage in
22:57 some of the fastest growing markets across the country.
23:00 And so the combination came together quickly.
23:02 The timing was great.
23:03 It was one of those rare deals where both companies traded up on the day that we announced.
23:07 It was a unique situation where I think we de-levered the balance sheet with the integration
23:12 as well.
23:13 So it was a fortunate combination that allowed us to enhance our growth profile and de-lever
23:18 at the same time.
23:19 And so in the markets, we've been really looking to enhance the portfolio.
23:22 So it's one of those rare situations where I think everything lined up for us.
23:26 And that grocery anchor, it's like when back in the day with the enclosed mall where the
23:31 department stores were the anchor.
23:33 It was the reason why people made a trip to the mall, the enclosed mall.
23:38 And now with the open-air shopping center, it's that supermarket that is the draw that
23:42 people have to go to unless they get obviously at-home delivery.
23:47 But it becomes a destination trip for them.
23:50 And then you can also fill in.
23:51 Because I know some of your other big tenants are like TJ Maxx and Home Depot and Ross Stores
23:56 and PetSmart.
23:57 So you can sort of also fill in that it's a must drive to your shopping center as opposed
24:02 to do I want to go to the mall, the enclosed mall or not?
24:05 Do I want to browse or not?
24:07 You're creating sort of a captive audience, it seems, for the markets that you're in.
24:10 Yeah, that's exactly right.
24:12 I think when you look at a merchandising mix, you want to try and drive traffic at all points
24:16 during the day.
24:17 And the grocery anchor is the most consistent traffic driver.
24:19 So when you look at like a TJ Maxx and they're a phenomenal operator, they really don't drive
24:24 the same amount of traffic on a weekly basis as a grocery store does.
24:28 So your typical grocer sometimes drives two to three trips per week.
24:33 And that's really exciting because then you get the halo effect of those cross trapping
24:37 trips.
24:38 And so the grocery anchor continues to be where we want to put our focus.
24:43 And we think there's a number of reasons why it's got a wider moat than other retail uses.
24:47 A lot of commodity type retailers, there's a lot of debate on is it going all online?
24:52 Is it going somewhat to online?
24:54 Or is there a omni channel approach?
24:56 And so what we've seen is the grocery anchor continues to be the hub of where people want
25:01 to shop.
25:02 And then there is these ancillary items that people also want to shop the most convenient
25:07 way possible.
25:08 And so whether you want to deliver to your home, people do that.
25:11 They go online, they shop and they have it delivered to their home all the time.
25:15 That last mile grocery store, the last mile, meaning the closest to where people live,
25:19 is what's servicing that online order.
25:23 And so the big takeaway from the pandemic was it crystallizes the value of the store
25:29 for the retail chain.
25:31 Because not only is it encouraging people to come in the store where the margins are
25:34 the highest, but that store can be utilized as a distribution and fulfillment point, whether
25:39 it's buy online, pick up in store, whether it's curbside pickup, whether it's delivery
25:42 to the home, that's really where it's now being focused.
25:46 Because you don't have to pay for the shipping.
25:48 You don't have to pay for the person driving the car, the gas mileage.
25:51 All those things add up to if you can service the consumer from that closest point, your
25:57 margin gets enhanced.
25:58 And so that's why I think when we looked at our portfolio, we've really continued to lean
26:03 into that grocery anchored property where it's going to be servicing the customer in
26:07 a variety of ways.
26:09 And I know through this, you've sort of created a new acronym as you say, the BOPUS.
26:14 So when people go, they're dedicated parking spots, right, for pickup.
26:19 So you're not just making it easier for the store in terms of them creating their own
26:24 distribution facility within the store, but you are sort of advertising to the customer
26:29 that we will provide an easy in and out for you to pick up what you just bought online.
26:34 That's exactly right.
26:35 I mean, I think when you boil it down, you have to ask yourself, what do consumers really
26:39 want today?
26:40 And I think the majority are still very focused on convenience and value.
26:46 And if we can solve for both of those major themes, then I think we have the ability to
26:53 enhance our cashflow growth, have pricing power.
26:55 And if we can make the store more valuable, that usually lends itself to the landlord
26:59 having pricing power and the ability to push rents and grow cashflow.
27:03 And so what we thought was, why not activate the parking lot for curbside pickup, which
27:08 a lot of people use during the pandemic because they didn't want to go in the store.
27:11 Maybe they were risk averse.
27:12 Maybe they felt more comfortable.
27:15 Whatever the reason was, it just continues to this day where people like the convenience
27:18 factor of driving in.
27:19 In essence, it's like a drive-thru.
27:21 You drive in, there's these stalls that are labeled curbside pickup, and then you can
27:24 call whatever store you're shopping at, and they know where you are because we use a very
27:28 simple, almost if you've been to a sports game, you park in lot A1.
27:33 That's the same thing we use.
27:34 We just use A123, and you just tell them which spot you're in, and then they fill up the
27:37 back of your car with your goods.
27:39 That continues to be, I think, a nice bonus as customers are gravitating towards it.
27:43 They like the convenience factor.
27:45 I have young kids.
27:46 If I have three kids in a car and I'm going to get something, the thought of getting them
27:49 out and in the car alone is a hurdle that's pretty high.
27:52 If you don't have to clear that hurdle, that's a nice thing to be able to do.
27:55 Yeah, without question.
27:57 That supermarket creates definitely a sticky customer.
28:00 Now, in that shopping center, you have the supermarket, you'll have PetSmart, you'll
28:04 also have the local dry cleaner and the local pizza shop as well?
28:08 That's right.
28:09 We think merchandising mix is really important because it has to not only service the customer
28:14 and the demographic that you're providing for, but it also connects to the community.
28:18 The key is the community aspect is one where if there's a local shop that's renowned in
28:23 the community, you're more than likely going to support that local shop because it's part
28:27 of the fabric of the community.
28:29 What we try and do is we find those unique operators that are really great at whatever
28:33 it is they do.
28:34 It could be waffles in the morning.
28:36 It could be bagels.
28:37 It could be you name it.
28:39 The nice part about having the anchor tenant like the grocery store is you have that daily
28:44 traffic driver, but then you try and enhance the surroundings with the offerings and the
28:48 merchandising mix that drives people to the shopping center at all points during the day.
28:52 You have your awesome coffee, bagel shop in the morning.
28:55 You have your great salad or chicken quick service restaurant in the middle of the day.
28:59 Then in the afternoon, we like to have those treasure hunters, Ross or TJ Maxx or Home
29:04 Goods or Burlington, where people shop not knowing what they're going to buy, but they
29:08 still see that and say, "Oh, there's an opportunity to find a deal."
29:12 That's the ideal merchandising mix that you try and create is find a unique offering that's
29:16 going to drive traffic all during the day and have those dominant anchors that help
29:20 the credit profile of the shopping center.
29:23 The mixed use that you said over the next couple of years will be about 15% of your
29:28 total portfolio.
29:29 That tries to create a sticky environment as well.
29:32 You're creating your own community where you can live, you can work, you can shop all within
29:39 walking distance.
29:40 Is that being done redeveloping older shopping centers?
29:45 Where are you guys trying to find raw land and building it literally from scratch?
29:50 For us, it's focused on redeveloping existing shopping centers into those mixed use communities.
29:55 What we've been able to do is we feel like there's a better risk adjusted return doing
30:00 that because you've already got the built in place that people are used to coming and
30:03 visiting and shopping.
30:05 Whenever you take down raw land, you have to take a very large and long process of trying
30:11 to create the place.
30:13 That can be very rewarding but can also be very unrewarding if it doesn't go well.
30:18 We found with the tremendous portfolio that we have, and again, we're focused on that
30:23 first ring suburb in the top 20 major metro markets, where we always thought and our thesis
30:27 was is that the big CBDs are going to push out.
30:31 There's going to be this sprawl where all of a sudden our shopping center is going to
30:35 be surrounded by density.
30:37 If you think about the most underutilized form of commercial real estate, you would
30:40 typically think about shopping centers because 80% of the land is dedicated to parking lot.
30:46 It's not generating any revenue.
30:48 20% is single story buildings.
30:50 If you're surrounded by these towers of apartments, office, hotels, whatever it is, you're typically
30:56 sitting on at the base of the raw land that is totally underutilized.
31:00 That's where we've focused our efforts on putting together a team that is laser focused
31:05 on unlocking entitlements across the portfolio for the highest and best use of the real estate.
31:11 Typically it is activating parts of the parking lot for apartment towers that we can add to
31:16 the shopping center.
31:17 Now, with the multifamily, are you operating them in-house?
31:22 You created a separate division for that?
31:24 It's a similar skill set but you're talking about usually one to two-year leases, more
31:28 of a fickle tenant relative to a supermarket.
31:32 Where are you guys outsourcing that management?
31:34 We definitely want to walk before we run and we're not egocentric at Kimco.
31:39 We try and make sure that we recognize that it's not our expertise.
31:41 We focus on what you do best and make sure you have the core competency.
31:46 To date what we've done is we've taken a little bit of a differentiated approach than others.
31:50 We've ground leased certain portions of the portfolio to apartment developers.
31:55 Now ground lease, in essence, if you're not familiar with that term, it's very simple.
31:58 It's exactly that.
31:59 You lease the ground to a developer and they come in and they develop the apartments and
32:05 they just pay you a lease on the ground.
32:07 They take on the management, they take on the rollover, they take on the apartment expertise.
32:12 We still own the land but they just pay us a rental fee on the land.
32:16 That is the most risk-averse way to do it.
32:19 We've also entered into joint ventures where we contribute the land at a marked-up basis,
32:23 in essence getting paid for our entitlement work.
32:26 We contribute it into a new joint venture with a best-in-class apartment developer operator
32:31 where we know we've aligned ourselves with the dominant player in that trade area so
32:36 that we feel very comfortable riding side saddle, watching them, learning from them
32:41 as we go forward.
32:42 Those are the two approaches that we've seen that have been working for us.
32:46 We continue to evolve and we're continuing to learn every day.
32:49 But to date that's what we've done and we feel very fortunate that we've got wonderful
32:52 partners and activating wonderful projects.
32:55 So let them deal with the 2am, "Oh, my toilet's not working," and come fix it now.
33:00 We've got plenty of those in our own portfolio.
33:01 A roof leak or an irrigation issue or the sprinkler head that's off or somebody ran
33:05 it over.
33:06 So no, we've aligned ourselves with the best-in-class and try and make sure that we're learning
33:10 and watching and trying to figure it out.
33:12 And we like the business.
33:13 That's the best part of it.
33:14 The thesis was it's actually going to enhance our growth because if you bring in the apartments
33:19 you have built in a shopper base and then typically that allows you to charge more rent
33:23 for your retail and what we've found is that it actually allows you to charge more
33:27 rent for the apartments as well.
33:29 Because if you think about, take New York City for example, and we don't own anything
33:32 in New York City, but just for an apartment pricing exercise.
33:36 If you were to lease an apartment, the amenity package would probably determine how much
33:39 you could lease that apartment for.
33:41 If you had a pool, if you had a gym, if you had a grocery store, if you had a coffee shop,
33:46 if you had a dry cleaner, that's exactly what we already have.
33:49 We've already built in the amenity base into the apartment complex.
33:54 So in essence, they're able to charge a significant premium to their apartments because of the
33:59 amenity base that we've built.
34:01 And so we are understanding that that's a real differentiator that allows you to price
34:05 above market rents that we can actually activate.
34:07 So that's why we've sort of shifted more towards the joint venture model.
34:11 And I'm sure over the last couple of years with the sharp rise in construction costs,
34:15 your partners are probably grateful that they have that pricing power in terms of the rent
34:19 they can charge to absorb what they probably weren't necessarily budgeting pre-COVID and
34:25 going through COVID with, whether it's lumber or whatever, steel prices and so on.
34:30 You're exactly right.
34:31 I mean, the ability to push the costs onto the consumer.
34:34 I'm sure you've been following the apartment rents and where they're headed and all the
34:38 results and the same site NOI growth of the apartments that we have has been phenomenal.
34:42 You have the ability to reprice those every year typically.
34:46 And so who knows how long the consumer can handle it, but to date you've seen upwards
34:50 of 15 to sometimes 20% increases.
34:52 All right.
34:53 Make sure to read the apartmentlist.com's monthly national report as a good guide for
34:58 that.
34:59 Now, in terms of markets, I know you guys are on the West Coast, the East Coast, residence
35:02 in Florida and Texas, one in Denver.
35:04 Are there markets that you're not currently in that you want to be in?
35:09 And if the case, do you try to buy your way in or you try to develop your way into those
35:14 newer markets?
35:15 Yeah, it's a really good question because it's pretty strategic on how you want to operate
35:19 your business and what's the highest return on your time.
35:22 So I'm a big believer coming from the operations side.
35:25 We needed to get economies of scale.
35:27 And in order to do that, we had to really concentrate the portfolio so that we could,
35:32 in essence, operate at a higher level rather than operate at a number of different assets
35:36 in a number of different markets and not be really local experts.
35:38 And real estate, especially retail, is very localized.
35:42 And so what we've done is we've created these pockets, these clusters of assets surrounding
35:47 the top 20 major metro markets.
35:48 And so we look for new markets all the time.
35:51 Actually through Wine Garden, we picked up San Antonio as a new market, which is a really
35:54 fast growing market that we've always liked and always wanted to be in but didn't have
35:58 a presence there.
36:00 Now we really have a foothold there.
36:01 We're going to look to grow that.
36:03 The same goes for other markets that we're watching closely.
36:05 Some we missed.
36:06 I mean, we're not perfect.
36:07 We missed Nashville.
36:08 We don't have a presence in Nashville.
36:10 And that's a wonderful market that's really just exploded.
36:12 The issue, though, is you can't really go in one shop with one shopping center.
36:17 In order to really have scale, you need to go in with, in our opinion, you need to go
36:21 in with a sizable portfolio in order to have it make it worth.
36:25 We're big believers.
36:26 You've got to live and breathe your assets.
36:27 We've got to have boots on the ground on these assets that are walking on every day.
36:30 So let's just say you've got that cluster.
36:32 How many miles away would the centers be in order to not be too close but enough for you
36:37 to have a good market share?
36:39 They can be right across the street from each other.
36:41 You really control the retail node that way.
36:43 So typically, it's a one-day drive.
36:45 We want to try and make sure we have everybody-- if they're managing a portfolio, they can
36:49 get to every asset in one day.
36:51 That's sort of the way that we think about it is you have a concentration of assets that
36:55 allows you to be optimizing your time.
36:57 It's all about time and your return on time.
36:59 And we found that when you're dispersed, a lot of your travel time is just not productive
37:03 as it could be.
37:04 So that's the way we've done it.
37:05 So there's loads of markets out there that we'd love to have a bigger concentration in
37:10 or ones that we don't necessarily have a presence in.
37:12 But for us, anyways, the incremental costs of adding a shopping center in one of our
37:17 existing clusters where we don't have to add any GNA versus starting a fresh market, that's
37:22 what we look at.
37:23 And again, the allocation of capital there, it's pretty clear to us that we should just
37:27 incrementally increase our cluster strategy unless a unique opportunity like a San Antonio
37:32 presents itself.
37:33 You focus on the markets where there's population growth, there's job growth and so on.
37:37 We know a lot of that has been taking place in the Sunbelt.
37:40 Are there any markets that you're in that is not living up to your expectations?
37:45 And you say, you know what, maybe we should better allocate these resources somewhere
37:49 else or you're happy with the markets that you're in.
37:52 So I will tell you that my previous experiences have probably shaped my thoughts on certain
37:56 markets that are not necessarily true today.
37:59 So one of the markets we picked up in the Weingarten transaction is Las Vegas.
38:04 And Las Vegas was one that I managed through the great financial crisis.
38:08 I was out West.
38:10 There was a lack of diversity of economic growth there.
38:14 And so when the gaming market dried up there, it was not a pretty place to be from a retail
38:19 perspective.
38:21 Demographics shift rapidly there because there's really sort of a sprawl in Vegas.
38:25 There's not really barriers to entry there.
38:26 They sort of build the next new shiny thing, another ring out, and that's where the wealth
38:31 goes.
38:32 And so what once was the dominant corridor can change really rapidly.
38:36 Now since then, Vegas has diversified quite a bit.
38:40 Since I was there anyways, I'm dating myself, they have a number of new sports teams, NFL,
38:45 NHL, they've got a diversity of economic growth drivers.
38:48 So that's one we're continuing to do a lot of research on.
38:51 I don't want to necessarily jump to conclusions on it because when I was there, it was a little
38:55 bit different, but people love Las Vegas and there's a lot of economic growth drivers there.
38:59 But when there's a lack of economic diversity in a market, that's what makes me nervous
39:07 because it's not as buoyant to go through the waves we've seen before.
39:12 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
39:14 And speaking of which, during COVID, one of the challenges that business obviously had
39:20 and you as a landlord is some stores just couldn't open.
39:23 If there was face to face needs in a particular store, that business couldn't be open.
39:28 How did you manage helping the tenant, but at the same time knowing that you have to
39:33 pay your bills as well?
39:34 How did you manage that tenant landlord situation when so many stores were closed for a period
39:39 of time?
39:40 The non-essential stores that had no choice but to close, but wanted to stay in business
39:45 when we got through COVID?
39:47 Nobody was prepared for that, right?
39:48 Nobody had a pandemic playbook.
39:50 And for us, we were fortunate where the lion's share of our retailers were deemed essential,
39:54 like the grocery stores that were able to operate through it.
39:58 Where it became very tricky was when you were deemed non-essential and you were forced to
40:01 close.
40:02 So what we tried to do was focus on the tenants that needed the help the most, which was typically
40:06 the small shops, the ones that didn't have rainy day funds, big balance sheets, the ones
40:10 that were operating sort of on a day by day, week by week basis.
40:14 The PPP program that the government launched, we felt was a great opportunity to help our
40:19 tenants get access to that capital to help them weather the storm.
40:24 And so what we did was we developed a full service operation dedicated to our small shop
40:29 tenants to go through the PPP program, to help them fill out all the paperwork.
40:35 We even paid for their attorneys to go through the PPP program, which was not as simple as
40:41 it probably was designed to be, but it really helped a lot of those small mom and pop retailers
40:47 get the rainy day funds they needed to weather the storm.
40:50 And we told our bigger retailers that had balance sheets, we told them it was tough,
40:54 but we had to be very tough because in those days, the people with the big balance sheets
40:59 needed to flex their balance sheets.
41:01 They should be paying us the rent because in essence, that allows us to go and help
41:05 the small businesses.
41:06 And the US is still, in my opinion, based on small business engine growth.
41:10 And so that was our strategy.
41:13 It seemed to work.
41:14 We did give deferrals for a lot of these tenants that were deemed non-essential.
41:17 So in essence, don't pay us for two, three months, but those three months of rent are
41:22 due.
41:23 They're just due on the back of your lease term.
41:24 And so that's what we've been doing.
41:25 And we've been collecting on that and it's been doing very well.
41:28 Right.
41:29 So to buy these businesses time to get them to the eventual reopening that we're obviously
41:34 in the midst of.
41:35 I know through that good relationship that you've had with your tenants, you've been
41:38 able to get through with a very high occupancy.
41:41 Just want to talk quickly about the hidden asset you have in the holdings of Albertsons
41:47 and then just talk macro wise on what you're seeing with the consumer.
41:51 Now Albertsons is an interesting holding of yours because not only is it a tenant, but
41:55 it's been a very successful investment.
41:58 And I believe the lockup period is this month.
42:01 What's your strategy?
42:02 You don't have to go into full detail, but is it a long-term relationship from a tenant
42:06 landlord's perspective?
42:07 Or it will maintain that as a shareholder as well?
42:11 We're very fortunate where we've been able to make a lot of value through focusing on
42:16 unlocking the real estate value that is owned by our retailers.
42:20 Now you're seeing a lot of funds and do it now, but we did this for decades where we
42:23 focused on retailers that are real estate rich, that are not getting credit for their
42:28 own real estate.
42:30 That's what sort of was the thesis behind getting involved in Albertsons.
42:33 It's a long story, but in essence, we bought defunct grocery banners from super value.
42:39 We rolled it up under Albertsons.
42:41 We took Safeway Private, which was a public company on the West Coast.
42:45 We combined that with Albertsons, brought in some great management, took it public.
42:49 And now we're sitting with billion three, a billion four of marketable securities in
42:54 Albertsons where our tax basis is a hundred million dollars.
42:57 So we've had a wonderful, wonderful investment there.
43:01 We are one of the largest landlords for Albertsons as well.
43:04 So it is a bit interesting to have a foot in, in a number of different ways.
43:08 Our strategy is the lockup expires this month.
43:11 We've been very focused on this where we are going to monetize around three to $350 million
43:17 a year so that we can reinvest those proceeds back in our business.
43:22 And we've been able to communicate that to the street and have them understand that there's
43:27 REIT rules where this is a pretty unique situation for REIT to be in where you have this big
43:32 of a taxable gain because the REIT rules were set up where you're not really supposed to
43:36 have a billion plus dollars of taxable gain coming from non real estate as a REIT.
43:41 So we want to maintain our REIT status.
43:43 That's priority number one.
43:44 And so in order to do that, we can only really have three to 400 million of taxable gains
43:49 per year.
43:50 And so for us to do that, we have to have sort of the methodical approach of selling
43:55 the shares three to 400 a year until we monetize the investment, redeploy those as best we
44:01 can into our business, whether it's, we've got a suite of opportunities and investments.
44:05 We're really excited to finally monetize and redeploy that.
44:08 And we feel like there's going to be some incredible opportunities for growth for Kimco
44:12 going forward.
44:13 And with the higher cost of capital, that certainly is a nice source of financing.
44:17 No question.
44:18 One thing that I know you guys have done very well is manage your balance sheet where most
44:22 of your debt, almost all of it is fixed.
44:25 And this rise in short term interest rates, impacting floating rate debt hasn't really
44:29 mattered to you guys.
44:30 Yeah, we're big believers since we have long term assets is to have long term debt and
44:33 have it be fixed.
44:35 99% of our debt is fixed.
44:36 And we just did a recent 10 year bond, reopened the market at the time that we thought it
44:41 was a high coupon, but it's already much higher today than it was back two, three months ago.
44:45 And we were able to access 30 year bond market.
44:47 We have the longest debt maturity profile in the peer group at over 10 years, no maturing
44:52 debt really now for another two years.
44:54 And so we bought ourselves, I think a nice runway to see what happens and have the highest
44:59 cash position we've ever had, the lowest debt we've ever had in the company's history and
45:03 have the Albertsons monetization be a nice dry powder as well to put to work.
45:07 So we've always been very focused on maintaining a very strong balance sheet.
45:12 We're triple B plus B double A one.
45:14 Our strategic goal is to get to A minus A three.
45:17 The only thing of that goal is that we don't control that destiny.
45:19 The rating agencies, I think are still a bit nervous about any type of upgrades, especially
45:24 in the changing environment that we're in.
45:26 But we actually price as an A minus A three already.
45:29 If you look at our spreads versus the A minus A three category, we're already right on top
45:33 of them.
45:34 So that, I guess, is the benefit we'll take.
45:36 But we're in a very strong position there because typically when the tide goes out,
45:39 the balance sheet becomes the number one important metric.
45:43 And that A category is from what triple A plus right now to help you on.
45:46 I want to wrap this up by just giving some color on the macro.
45:50 Obviously everyone's debating recession, no recession.
45:53 The way I put it is more it could be a recession for some, but not for others.
45:56 Now, obviously you've structured your business to be a destination, a necessity destination,
46:02 but you still see, I'm sure, changes in traffic trends or maybe not, or any consumer trends
46:08 that you're seeing in this more fragile state that the U.S. economy is in.
46:11 Yeah, it's a really tricky time.
46:13 I mean, we watch traffic very closely.
46:15 To date, our traffic is higher than last year.
46:17 So that's one we're watching.
46:18 We continue to see the shopper.
46:19 And again, we offer everyday goods and services.
46:22 So I think that's a pretty critical aspect of what we're offering.
46:26 We don't see where the consumer wallet is necessarily shifting towards.
46:31 We don't have, I would say, the data that shows that they're buying chicken instead
46:34 of steak.
46:36 That continues to be something we're looking for through our earnings of our tenant base.
46:40 But the traffic is still strong.
46:42 The pricing of our assets is still very, very strong.
46:44 We haven't seen any dislocation there yet.
46:46 We're waiting because we think we could be opportunists there.
46:49 But the private markets are very healthy for grocery and good shopping centers.
46:52 The public peers are out still looking for acquisitions as well.
46:55 The consumer is stretched, I would say, on the lower end.
46:58 There's no question about it that they're facing the real impact of inflation.
47:01 But the silver lining is gas prices have come down pretty significantly recently.
47:05 So that, in essence, has become, I think, a relief valve.
47:08 And the employment market is still strong.
47:10 So I know everyone's trying to determine where we are and where we're headed.
47:14 But it is very tricky as there's components of this economy that show that there's little
47:18 to no recession going on, while other parts of it are starting to shine bright lights
47:22 on different cracks in the economy.
47:24 Yeah, there's no question.
47:25 I like to say that the US economy is not this light switch that just goes on and off.
47:30 Like there could be a dimmer.
47:31 It can vacillate in different directions, sort of in between.
47:34 And as you said, the labor market is still pretty healthy.
47:37 And the interesting thing is that how we would define a recession potentially can be an unemployment
47:44 rate of 4.5% instead of 3.5%, where 4.5% used to be historically very low.
47:51 That used to be the bottom end of a rate that we would see in a recession.
47:54 Now it's the top end.
47:56 It'd be interesting if that 4.5% comes to fruition from participation rate going up
48:00 too.
48:01 Like that's another piece of it, right?
48:02 That could be really interesting to watch.
48:04 It's exactly right.
48:05 The August payroll number, we saw a rise in the unemployment rate from 3.5% to 3.7%.
48:09 And that's because you had a 700,000 plus rise in the size of the labor force on top
48:15 of a rise in employment that was less than that.
48:18 So it actually rose for good reason.
48:20 It's interesting.
48:21 And Kimco, I think, is going to be one of those unique situations where there's going
48:25 to be a lot of probably noise in the economy and things like that.
48:29 But we're still in a reopening phase where we're seeing record demand for space, literally
48:34 no new supply, pricing power in the landlord favor.
48:37 We're able to really push rents and really have good, strong spreads where there could
48:42 be a slight pullback.
48:43 And I think where we're positioned, it may not impact the reopening dynamic that we're
48:47 experiencing because it's so strong.
48:49 But we'll have to see.
48:50 And I think the last thing we learned is also that people still like to go out and shop.
48:55 It's easy to say, "Oh, I'm just going to stay on my couch and click buttons and have it
48:58 delivered."
48:59 But people like to go out.
49:00 They like to see things.
49:01 They like to try things on.
49:02 They want to be out there themselves.
49:05 No question about it.
49:06 And the value proposition of the last mile store, that is the biggest takeaway, in my
49:09 opinion, of the pandemic.
49:10 I think there was a lot of people debating the real value proposition of brick and mortar
49:14 retail.
49:15 And you can make a case for it was all heading online.
49:18 If the government can shut down certain retailers and still they survive and think that the
49:22 physical store is the highest margin, best way to invest going forward, that sort of,
49:26 I think, puts a rest to that argument.
49:28 I completely agree.
49:29 And what we have to see is the online businesses that are now opening physical stores.
49:33 Yeah, exactly right.
49:34 I mean, we're back to the fundamentals, right?
49:36 Where the cash flow growth is coming from, where the highest margins are.
49:39 Oh, it happens to be the store.
49:41 Let's reinvest in store growth.
49:43 Agreed.
49:44 Well, Conor, I can't thank you enough.
49:46 Your insights were great.
49:47 I think that the listener got a deep dive on your business and I really appreciate having
49:51 you on.
49:52 Always nice to see you, Peter.
49:53 Thanks for having me.
49:54 Thanks.
49:55 Nothing in this broadcast should be construed as investment advice, nor a recommendation
49:59 to buy or sell securities.
50:01 The discussion is for informational purposes only and past performance is not indicative
50:06 of future results.
50:07 The specific securities discussed may be held by Peter Bookvar personally and/or purchased,
50:13 sold or recommended to Bleakley clients.
50:17 Thanks once again to CME Group and iConnections for sponsoring this episode of On the Tape.
50:22 If you like what you heard, make sure you hit follow and leave us a review.
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50:41 On the Tape is a Risk Reversal Media production.
50:44 This podcast is for informational purposes only.
50:47 All opinions expressed by me, Dan Nathan, Guy Adami, Danny Moses and any other participants
50:52 are solely our opinions and should not be relied upon for specific investment decisions.
50:56 (upbeat music)
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