Grammy CEO ‘All-In’ On Repairing Awards Show

Forbes

The nonprofit Recording Academy had a controversial 2019, but it still averaged annual revenue of $82 million over the last three years.  Harvey Mason Jr. joins 'Forbes Talks', with Senior Editor and Writer, Jabari Young to discuss the state of AI's impact on the music industry and how listeners want to experience artists- now.   0:00 Introduction 2:03 What To Expect For The Grammys 2024 3:54 The Grammys Host: Trevor Noah 5:02 Why Harvey Mason Jr. Has Been Vocal About Music And AI Benefits 10:49 The First Black Grammy's CEO Tells Us His Experience 13:02 Harvey's Athletic Background  17:46 Reflecting On Pioneers In Music 22:48 Harvey's Journey To Producing And CEO Of The Grammys 27:31 The Grammy's Membership Program: What Qualifies? 30:25 The Grammy's Salute to Hip Hop's 50 Year Celebrations 34:32 The Difference Between A Good Music Producer And A Great One  Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1  Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript  Stay Connected Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com  Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Transcript

00:00 It's a new year and you know what that means, right?

00:02 One of the most prominent shows of the year, award shows,

00:06 is right on deck.

00:07 And in a minute, we'll be speaking to the CEO

00:09 who runs the entire operation.

00:11 Hello everyone, this is Jabari Young,

00:12 senior writer and editor here at Forbes.

00:15 And in just a second, I'll be joined by Harvey Mason Jr.

00:17 He is the Recording Academy's CEO,

00:20 Recording Academy which runs the Grammy Awards.

00:23 And we'll be talking about the 66th annual show,

00:25 the business behind the Grammys,

00:27 Trevor Noah returning, Africa performances,

00:30 best Africa performance on deck,

00:32 a new category this year,

00:33 and what he sees in Africa,

00:34 breaking down his career, dealing with Michael Jackson,

00:37 all of that and more with Harvey Mason Jr. right now.

00:41 (upbeat music)

00:44 I open it up like this, you know,

00:47 the way you do anything is the way you do everything.

00:50 That's one of your core sayings

00:53 and something that you like.

00:54 And I guess that's almost like you go all in

00:57 on everything that you do.

00:58 And here you are CEO of the Recording Academy,

01:01 which runs the Grammys.

01:02 Congrats on all your success.

01:04 And here you are going all in as a CEO.

01:07 What is that like?

01:08 What's on tap for the 2024 Grammys,

01:11 the 66th annual Grammy Mr. Harvey Mason Jr.

01:14 What's going on in 2024, sir?

01:16 - Well, thank you.

01:18 First of all, thanks for having me.

01:19 And you're right, I do have either a good habit

01:23 or a bad habit depending on who you ask

01:25 of going all in, drives my wife crazy.

01:29 But yeah, I get interested in something

01:31 and invested in something.

01:33 And I just wanna see it all the way through.

01:36 I am passionate about improvement.

01:39 I'm passionate about learning, doing, making a difference.

01:42 You know, I've been in the music industry for a long time.

01:44 I made a lot of music, a ton of records,

01:46 worked with some great artists.

01:48 I was very fortunate to have a great career,

01:50 had a lot of fun.

01:52 And I'm at the stage in my life now

01:53 where I'm going all in on trying to make a difference,

01:56 trying to be of service to people

01:58 and really make an impact with my time here on the planet.

02:03 - Yeah, absolutely.

02:04 Well, listen, 66th annual Grammys again coming up

02:07 in February.

02:09 And here we are as we close out the first month of 2024.

02:13 Interesting already in January,

02:16 but Trevor Noah returning, new categories,

02:19 Ice Spice is nominated, right?

02:20 Ice Spice had a terrific run in 2023.

02:23 And a lot of things on board for her in 2024.

02:26 Talk about the transparency and the voting,

02:28 but let's start here.

02:29 What can viewers expect on February 4th?

02:32 Because the Grammys brings in 20 plus million people

02:35 annually all the time.

02:36 What can these people expect on February 4th

02:38 when they turn on CBS?

02:40 - Well, it's gonna be a big show, first of all.

02:42 You're gonna see a lot of different types of music,

02:45 which is what I love about our show.

02:46 It's not just exclusively one genre

02:48 or one small group of people doing all the performances.

02:51 So you're gonna see a lot of different looks,

02:53 a lot of different faces, ages, genders, races,

02:57 and great music, great performances,

02:59 different people coming together to perform.

03:02 And my hope is that we can use the platform

03:04 of the Academy and the Grammys specifically

03:07 in February 4th as an event to bring people together

03:11 and an occasion to unify.

03:13 That's what music has done throughout history.

03:15 That's what I'm hoping that we can continue to do

03:18 and maybe amplify that effort,

03:20 especially in these days where there's so much uncertainty

03:24 and division in not just our country, but around the world.

03:28 My hope is that music, the Academy in some small way,

03:32 but greater than that music can make a difference

03:35 in the world.

03:36 - Yeah, you might need to do a show

03:38 at the end of the year too,

03:38 'cause we only at the start of 2024, Harvey.

03:41 You know, it's gonna get crazier.

03:43 We're in an election year,

03:44 that the things that happen around the world,

03:45 we might have to just do a show to come together

03:47 at the end of the year

03:48 once we get through the election cycle.

03:50 So you might need to make that happen.

03:51 And we'll do it at your house too.

03:53 - I'm not opposed to that.

03:55 More shows, the music, the better.

03:57 - Absolutely.

03:58 What stands out about Trevor Noah?

03:59 I mean, it's his fourth year, you know,

04:01 returning as a Grammys host.

04:03 And you know, obviously the brother's talented,

04:05 but when you're picking a host

04:07 to run such an extraordinary event every year,

04:10 what do you look for?

04:11 And what is standing out about him

04:13 that you keep calling him back?

04:15 - Depends on how you're analyzing it.

04:16 You're looking at it from a lot of different levels.

04:18 You're looking at it from the viewer's perspective.

04:21 Does he resonate or mean something to the viewers?

04:24 And absolutely the answer is yes.

04:25 From the music community standpoint,

04:27 from the academy standpoint,

04:28 I look at him as somebody who loves music.

04:31 This guy can recite lyrics, he can rap, he can sing.

04:35 And he's so passionate about music

04:38 that when I see him on our stage

04:40 and when I see him hosting our event, he's having fun.

04:42 He's in his happy place.

04:44 And he's, first of all, again, so respected

04:47 by not only the viewers, but by the music community

04:50 and by the people who he's interacting with on the show

04:53 that it's a perfect fit.

04:54 So he's very smart, he's intelligent, he's so well-spoken,

04:57 but more than all of that, he's a music lover

05:00 and somebody that the music community also respects.

05:02 - Yeah.

05:03 Wanna get deeper into the business again in a minute,

05:06 but let's recap right fast.

05:09 In 2023, you were a little bit in the headline

05:11 because you supported AI, artificial intelligence,

05:16 tracks that, obviously humans have to,

05:19 they make sure they are the majority of it in producing it,

05:21 but your support of AI-generated songs

05:24 being nominated for Grammys.

05:26 Can you elaborate on maybe the messaging?

05:29 Would you change any of that?

05:30 Because I mean, people were in uproar.

05:32 What, an AI song?

05:33 This is not fair.

05:34 Do you change it or do you stick with how you present it

05:37 that this new tech will be considered

05:40 for something as prominent as a Grammy award?

05:43 - I'll always look at everything I'm doing personally

05:47 and the Academy's doing and try and make it better

05:50 year to year. - Yeah.

05:51 - So we're always gonna look to improve

05:53 and work to make things clearer,

05:55 but that was a very, very nuanced subject

05:58 in trying to talk about AI in a way that is understandable

06:02 and digestible by all people's difficult,

06:04 but it's also things get taken in small bits now.

06:08 People wanna grab headlines,

06:09 they wanna grab things that get attention.

06:11 So a lot of the, I guess, agita around the things

06:15 that were said by the Academy or by me personally

06:18 were just things that weren't really the facts.

06:20 What we always have maintained was,

06:22 AI is going to be used in music.

06:25 Fact, it already is, it always has been.

06:27 As a songwriter, as a producer myself,

06:29 I've used AI for the last five, 10 years.

06:31 When you look at tune correction, frequency adjusting,

06:34 these are all different things that are controlled by AI.

06:37 So we're not gonna refute the fact

06:39 that AI is going to be used in music going forward.

06:42 And as an Academy, we are understanding our members.

06:45 We have 24,000 members.

06:46 Creative people are early adopters of technology.

06:49 We always have been.

06:50 So AI is gonna be a part of how people make music.

06:54 Music that is submitted is going to contain

06:56 some AI components of it,

06:58 and that is not gonna make a song immediately disqualified.

07:01 And this is what I've always said.

07:03 A song can have AI involvement,

07:04 but the human creativity and the human portion

07:07 is gonna be what we as an Academy award.

07:10 I stand by what I said then, and I reiterate that now.

07:13 We will continue to evolve those rules though,

07:15 because AI is changing.

07:17 Our industry is changing.

07:18 How people are using it is changing.

07:20 How listeners are wanting to consume it is going to evolve.

07:24 So the Academy, I promise you, and I guarantee you,

07:27 will evolve along with technology

07:29 and not be caught behind trying to catch up.

07:32 - Yeah.

07:33 I mean, listen, it's all good stuff, right?

07:34 I mean, as you said, I look at T-Pain's story, right?

07:38 And when he first was trying to develop

07:40 or get his sound with Auto-Tune

07:42 and all the different software programs

07:44 he had to go through to learn it.

07:45 And I'm like, wait, that's kind of like AI, right?

07:48 So you're right, it's always been there.

07:50 Why do you think so many people are so afraid of it now?

07:53 Like, what's the big uproar?

07:54 I mean, generative AI is scary.

07:56 When you can make a whole movie

07:57 and don't have to use human beings or whatever,

07:59 it is a little nerve-wracking,

08:01 but at the same time, it's like, again,

08:03 it's not going anywhere.

08:04 So why are people so afraid of it?

08:05 And looking at it from a music perspective,

08:07 why do you think it's such a concern?

08:09 - People are concerned because it is dang scary

08:13 and it is potentially gonna displace a lot of people

08:17 that traditionally thought music was made one way.

08:21 Again, technology is always going to make things

08:24 more convenient or more productive for people.

08:27 But when it comes to music,

08:28 you gotta realize these are people

08:30 that have invested years and years,

08:32 thousands and thousands of hours,

08:33 perfecting their craft,

08:34 the idea of sitting down at an instrument

08:37 and playing a song or composing

08:39 or collecting a series of chords to make a progression,

08:42 to make a track, and then writing lyrics

08:44 and singing over the top.

08:45 These are things that people have worked

08:48 on their entire lives.

08:49 And now to think we can release that to a computer

08:52 to do it in a matter of seconds is a scary concept.

08:55 There's a lot to be done to figure out

08:59 how human creativity and human artistry is maintained.

09:03 I personally believe there will never be anything

09:06 that can replace what we do and what we make

09:09 and what comes from our hearts and from our souls

09:12 and how that resonates with other human beings

09:14 and what that means to humanity and culture and society.

09:18 But we have to figure out some legislation

09:21 or regulations around AI and how it's gonna be used.

09:26 How is it gonna be used as an amplifier

09:28 and an enhancement to human creativity,

09:30 not something to replace.

09:31 So a lot of fear around that.

09:33 Are we gonna be able to keep up

09:35 from a government standpoint, federally, state,

09:37 on the state legislative side to make sure we're protected?

09:40 Are we gonna be able to have the approvals,

09:43 the licensing, the crediting, the remuneration,

09:46 all these types of things need to be sorted out before

09:48 I think creatives like me or our members at the Academy

09:51 will be really comfortable with it.

09:52 - Yeah, so you could see one day an AI program,

09:56 if it's trained and it creates and writes a song

09:59 and it's no human, right?

10:00 It's just an AI that it could win an award one day.

10:04 If the rules are refined and it's a fair system,

10:07 I mean, listen, over in Europe,

10:08 and they're already writing AI laws.

10:10 I can only imagine in the US,

10:12 we will take some of that and copy

10:13 and maybe put some of our own guidelines in place.

10:16 But again, can you envision one day

10:18 an AI only software program winning a nomination at Grammys?

10:22 - Hard for me to envision that right now

10:25 to tell you the truth

10:26 because who would be the recipient of the award?

10:29 - The computer.

10:30 (laughs)

10:32 - So it's hard to imagine,

10:33 but what I will say is I do envision a world

10:35 in which AI generated music

10:38 is a part of award-winning songs.

10:41 Our organization is always gonna focus on

10:44 awarding human excellence and human creativity.

10:46 So we'll see where it goes and how it evolves.

10:49 - Yeah, maybe the person who created the software,

10:51 I mean, maybe that person will win the award,

10:53 but you're the first black CEO running the Recording Academy

10:58 and that is a feat in itself.

11:01 But what is that like?

11:02 The first black man, first black person

11:05 and in this CEO position?

11:07 - Well, I'm honored.

11:11 I'm humbled to be here.

11:13 As it relates to the racial component,

11:15 it's not something that I initially considered.

11:18 In order to become a CEO of an organization,

11:21 there's obviously a few things that have to happen.

11:23 You have to do a few things right.

11:25 People have to think that your capabilities

11:28 and abilities are such that you can lead the organization

11:31 regardless of what color you are.

11:33 But when you look at it as a black leader

11:36 and a black CEO, there are certain things

11:38 that I hold personal and consider very important

11:42 and that is to make sure I'm representing

11:45 other black leaders and other black people

11:49 in the music community and just in the world

11:52 in a way that exemplifies excellence

11:56 and in a way that opens the door

11:59 and provides opportunities for other people

12:02 from regardless of what their race are,

12:03 but other underserved communities

12:05 because many times underrepresented groups

12:10 have not had someone that they can look at

12:13 and someone that they can see in a role

12:14 that they would aspire to be in.

12:16 So my hope is that I do the job, I do it well

12:20 and I do it in a way that makes people proud

12:22 and makes people maybe inspired or motivated

12:25 to do something they thought might not have been possible,

12:28 they might not have seen or they might not have been able

12:30 to reach out and touch before.

12:32 So I take it very seriously

12:35 and I take my role here very personally,

12:38 but again, I wanna make sure I'm doing the best job possible

12:41 regardless of race, anything I do, anywhere I go,

12:44 as you said, I'm gonna jump all the way in,

12:46 I'm gonna give it all my effort

12:48 and all my focus and all my attention.

12:50 I hope that reflects well on me as an individual,

12:53 but more importantly on the Academy

12:55 and then ultimately if people wanna say,

12:57 he's a black CEO, he's a black leader,

12:59 I hope that represents and reflects well on that as well.

13:02 - Yeah, let's flashback for a minute, right?

13:04 Because people listening to this,

13:05 they may not even still know,

13:06 who the hell is Harvey Mason Jr., right?

13:09 Looking at you, Grammy CEO,

13:11 Recording Academy CEO, runs the Grammys,

13:13 but flashback in your career, right?

13:14 You grew up in LA, played basketball at Arizona,

13:17 the Ludo Olson, the great Ludo Olson,

13:19 teammates with Steve Kerr and Sean Elliott.

13:22 I'm gonna stop there,

13:24 because I covered the Spurs for five years, right?

13:26 When I covered the NBA and Sean is a very good friend of mine

13:29 and I know Steve because I covered that team,

13:32 you know, I've covered him through

13:33 when the Spurs were playing the Golden State Warriors,

13:34 but I will ask you this,

13:36 you're in your backyard, all right?

13:39 Sean and Steve are both your teammates,

13:41 it's a three on three and you got the ball.

13:43 Both of them are open,

13:44 you gotta pass to one of them for the last shot,

13:46 game on the line, which one do you pick?

13:47 Sean or Steve Kerr?

13:48 - I'm gonna look at Sean

13:51 and then I'm gonna wave him off

13:52 and I'm gonna look at Steve

13:53 and I'm gonna tell him to come set a pick for me

13:55 and I'm gonna dribble to the left

13:57 and pull up for the jump shot myself.

13:59 - So Harvey Mason Jr. takes the last shot,

14:02 I like that, I like that.

14:03 Now, will you make it though?

14:05 - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

14:06 - Okay, 'cause those guys have experience,

14:09 you know what I mean, doing it.

14:11 - They do, they do.

14:11 I will tell you, I have missed the last second shot.

14:14 When Sean was on my team at Stanford,

14:16 it was not a good experience,

14:18 definitely impacted me as an athlete

14:20 and probably as a human.

14:22 So I've been in that situation,

14:24 sometimes it's not pretty.

14:26 - Absolutely, absolutely.

14:27 Well, listen, Harvey Mason Jr. takes the shot,

14:29 I'm okay with that.

14:30 Now, when I see Sean, I'm gonna tell him the story,

14:32 he probably gonna be mad to try and pass him a bottle

14:34 'cause he's wide open, right?

14:35 He's wide open.

14:36 But listen, one of the things,

14:38 your dad was a member of Fourplay,

14:40 he was a drummer and I love Fourplay,

14:42 Bob James, I mean, that was one of my favorite jazz bands

14:46 and here you are making a song for Grover Washington Jr.

14:49 Again, I grew up in Philly,

14:51 so hearing Grover Washington Jr.,

14:54 hearing East Riverside Drive,

14:56 hearing those tracks, it was just amazing.

15:00 I have Grover Washington Jr. live at the Bayou

15:03 and I listen to that CD all the time.

15:05 I mean, classic stuff.

15:06 And you wrote a song for him at age eight or 10.

15:09 I couldn't, I'm hearing various numbers,

15:11 that eight or 10 that you wrote that song

15:12 and that he used.

15:13 - We'll say nine, we'll say nine.

15:15 - So nine years old, right in the middle, right?

15:16 Nine years old.

15:18 When you learn that Grover Washington

15:20 is gonna be using one of your songs,

15:21 are you on a cloud nine or are you still,

15:23 are you young enough where you don't know what it means?

15:26 - I'm young, but I'm also immersed in music

15:30 my whole life as a child.

15:31 I was around artists and musicians

15:33 because my parents were both musicians.

15:35 So I grew up meeting Michael Jackson or Stevie Wonder,

15:38 people like that, because my dad was playing with them.

15:40 So I respected them, I loved them, I loved the music,

15:44 but I wasn't like, oh my gosh,

15:45 I can't believe I just met Grover Washington Jr.

15:47 So when I heard that they were recording my song,

15:49 I thought that was wonderful, I loved it.

15:51 I sat at the piano almost every day

15:52 writing songs when I was a kid.

15:54 So to me it felt like what was supposed to happen.

15:56 I didn't know that that wasn't the usual for a nine year.

15:59 - Yeah, what song was it though?

16:01 I couldn't find the song from Grover Washington.

16:04 - It's called "Love Makes It Better."

16:05 And I have no idea how I knew that at that age,

16:07 but that's what I called it.

16:10 And it was on his record.

16:12 - Nice, nice.

16:13 And now, you take that moment where you write that song

16:16 and I'm sure that just gives you all type of creativity.

16:19 And again, you played basketball in college,

16:20 you were doing other things, but here you are, right?

16:22 You're making music, you get with the group,

16:25 the underdogs, right, you and Devin Thomas.

16:27 And you said, I remember listening to podcasts,

16:30 your big break came when you were able to get a song

16:32 written for Brandy, right?

16:34 That's when you guys were really blown up.

16:36 Take me back to that time.

16:38 When you got a song, Brandy's using like,

16:40 what stage, what mindset are you in?

16:42 And how does that trajectory go up from there?

16:46 - My mindset was very simple, it was grind mode.

16:48 I was hustling, I was writing songs every day.

16:51 At this point, I was probably 20 something

16:53 and I was sleeping on a friend's couch in LA.

16:56 I was staying in my dad's house in the guest bedroom

16:59 when I could.

17:00 I was following record executives home from their job

17:02 at the office to find out where they lived

17:04 so I could put cassette tapes in their mailbox.

17:07 I was stalking people with my music

17:10 and to have Brandy hear one of my songs

17:12 and the producer that was producing her record

17:14 heard one of my songs and wanted to record it.

17:17 I said, "Great, love to work with you on it

17:19 "as long as I can co-produce."

17:20 And they agreed.

17:21 So that was really my first break.

17:23 And it was, I would say it was a relief,

17:26 but that was not the feeling.

17:27 The feeling was, okay, great, this is the first step.

17:29 Now what's gonna be next?

17:30 And let's push harder, let's go farther,

17:32 let's write more songs, let's get better.

17:34 And my experience working with Brandy led to

17:36 working on the rest of that album with her

17:37 and then going on to work with Destiny's Child

17:40 on their first record,

17:41 then we went to Whitney Houston's record

17:42 and we just kinda went from record to record to record

17:44 based off of that tipping point moment.

17:47 - Yeah, that's amazing.

17:48 I mean, when you, first of all,

17:49 meeting Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder,

17:51 I mean, you had to kill me with that one, right?

17:53 I was able to be in the same room as Prince, right?

17:56 And, but before he died,

17:57 and that was definitely an experience,

17:59 but you also worked with legends like Aretha Franklin

18:03 and Whitney Houston, you mentioned Beyonce, 50 Cent,

18:06 the list goes on and on and on.

18:08 When you think about all those names I just mentioned,

18:11 does someone stand out the most that you think about,

18:15 that you use, what they've given you,

18:16 the tools, the advice today still,

18:19 out of all those names,

18:20 all those pioneers that you've worked with in music?

18:22 - I don't think anyone stands out individually,

18:25 but I do reflect back on my experience

18:28 with each one of them.

18:29 There's something that I picked up

18:30 from many of the legends, you know,

18:31 and they all have things that I'd notice are in common,

18:34 and that's the professionalism, the work ethic,

18:37 the focus, and the desire to push the boundary of greatness.

18:41 And that's something that I absolutely have used in my life,

18:44 whether that be in sports or in my relationships

18:48 or my work at the Academy

18:49 or my work as a songwriter and producer.

18:51 These artists, they don't settle.

18:53 They don't just come in and sing something and say,

18:55 "Oh, great, it is what it is."

18:56 They're like, "Okay, how can I sing it better?

18:58 How can we produce it in another way, in an elevator?

19:01 How can we reach more people?"

19:03 And they never said, they don't compromise.

19:06 And so for me, I've learned through my different experiences,

19:09 as you said, whether that was with Michael or Aretha,

19:11 or even in today's artists with Justin and Beyonce

19:14 and people like that,

19:15 the excellence and the craft

19:17 that you must deploy to reach excellence

19:20 is something that's never-ending

19:21 and continuing to evolve and grow and learn and improve.

19:24 It's something that I find

19:25 a lot of these iconic artists have.

19:27 - Yeah.

19:28 Teddy Riley explains his Michael Jackson moment, right?

19:31 When he was working with Michael on the album,

19:33 I forget which one it was.

19:35 I believe it was, maybe it was "Dangerous,"

19:36 but- - "Dangerous," yeah.

19:37 - And he was at his Michael's house

19:39 and he's going just really telling in detail,

19:43 so the visual was great,

19:45 about how Michael taught him

19:46 about how to listen and have a better ear for music.

19:49 And as you said, Michael wanted to be the best.

19:51 He was telling Teddy Riley,

19:52 "If I stink, you let me know I stink so I could do it over."

19:55 But Teddy took that experience

19:57 and he went back to Virginia

19:58 and he said he was just a better producer.

20:00 He had a better ear

20:01 because he was under Michael and he was learning

20:03 and Michael was not afraid to allow Teddy

20:06 to explore all of your many sessions.

20:09 Do you think back at one, like the Teddy Riley,

20:11 you know, his Michael Jackson moment,

20:13 do you think back at one session

20:14 that you still can visualize that you say,

20:16 "Man, I learned so much from that."

20:18 And if so, which session was that?

20:20 - I don't, again, it's impossible for me

20:23 to pinpoint one session because to me,

20:26 I like and I consider myself-

20:28 - What about the one that stands out right now?

20:30 Like the one that comes to mind right now?

20:32 - The one that comes to mind

20:33 is the one that you just brought up

20:34 because I did spend 18 months working with Michael

20:37 and I was in the studio working on his record.

20:38 So I did learn a lot from him.

20:40 - Like what?

20:41 What was some of the things you learned?

20:44 - Pushing for greatness,

20:44 reaching for something

20:45 that you might not have thought you could achieve.

20:47 But these are also the same things

20:48 that I learned from my basketball coach,

20:50 playing for Lute Olson.

20:51 These guys, you have a bar of excellence

20:53 that you hold in your mind that's here.

20:55 And there's a certain group of people that can push you

20:58 and can make you reach beyond where you think you can go.

21:00 Michael did that.

21:02 My coach Lute Olson did that.

21:03 Aretha Franklin did that.

21:05 One of my teammates, Steve Kerr did that for me.

21:08 So these are the people that make you realize,

21:10 oh, there's another level.

21:11 There's another gear that you can shift into.

21:14 And Michael absolutely did that.

21:15 He thought, okay, you've done your best.

21:17 Now erase all that and start over

21:20 and do your best plus 10.

21:22 And then maybe we'll do that two or three more times

21:24 to get to the place where it's truly excellent.

21:27 It's truly something special.

21:28 So that's something I definitely learned.

21:30 - Yeah.

21:31 You've grown up your career as a producer, right?

21:34 And I think A&Rs are just a lost thing nowadays.

21:37 I don't think that you have great A&Rs.

21:39 I hear it in the music, right?

21:40 You hear it when you're listening to songs.

21:42 I'm like, nobody took the time to listen,

21:44 pay attention to detail and listen to the tune,

21:47 listen to somebody's voice to say, no, not good enough.

21:50 Do it over again.

21:51 You work, again, working with all these writers,

21:54 we're working on all these great talent.

21:56 So you know what an A&R stands for.

21:57 And I'll get to you in a great question in a little bit,

21:59 but looking back at your career as an A&R, as a producer,

22:03 how would you sum up your career in one word on that side?

22:06 - One word, varied.

22:10 The variety of work that I was able to do

22:13 and that I continue to do is something

22:14 that made me excited and really drove me.

22:18 It always was something that I was striving for,

22:21 making sure I wasn't just doing one style of music

22:24 over and over and every day, every day.

22:26 So variety or varied,

22:28 the nature of my work is something

22:30 that I would probably summarize in one word.

22:32 - Yeah, did you know that you wanted to,

22:34 I mean, CEO positions are varied.

22:37 They don't really come by, you know,

22:38 don't come open like that.

22:40 They're very hard positions to get.

22:42 But did you know when this role came open

22:44 that you wanted to be CEO was that people had to convince you?

22:47 - No, God, no, definitely not.

22:50 CEO was not a role that I was seeking out for the Academy.

22:53 I was the CEO of my company.

22:55 I had a publishing joint venture.

22:57 I had a label.

22:57 I had my production company and I was running that

23:00 and I was happy and we were thriving and growing and building.

23:04 The CEO of the Academy thing came

23:05 because I had volunteered to be the chair

23:07 of the Recording Academy.

23:09 And that is a position that oversees the Board of Trustees

23:12 for the Recording Academy.

23:13 I did that for one year.

23:15 And then they asked me, would I consider being CEO?

23:18 And I actually said, no, I didn't wanna be the CEO

23:20 because I knew the amount of work and effort that that took.

23:23 I was still in the studio making music.

23:25 And that process went on for two or three asks.

23:28 And ultimately, I saw how I can be useful.

23:33 I saw how I could serve the organization.

23:35 I really understood the power of the Academy

23:38 and the work that it was doing beyond just the show

23:41 or just the trophies, which is very, very important

23:43 and critical to the success of our organization.

23:46 But I saw all the work it was doing through Music Cares

23:48 and the Health and Human Services and the Philanthropy

23:50 and the Museum and the Education and Music Preservation

23:53 and the advocacy work in DC that was making it a safe place

23:57 and a profitable place for people to create music.

24:00 These things excited me and they made me realize

24:04 I have a purpose to make sure I'm giving back.

24:06 I have a purpose to serve people like me

24:08 that are coming up into the music industry.

24:10 So agreeing to be the CEO was with that in mind.

24:13 How can I serve?

24:14 How can I uplift?

24:15 How can I continue to put the Academy in a position

24:17 to make sure we're building a safe and healthy place

24:20 for music people to do the work that,

24:23 and we touched on this,

24:24 this work that makes a difference around the world,

24:26 this work that brings people together,

24:28 the music that can heal, the music that can unite.

24:31 This is why the Academy is important

24:32 and this is why I decided to take the role.

24:34 - Yeah, you say work as we move on.

24:36 And when you took over that CEO role,

24:39 the Grammy, the Academy was going through

24:40 a little bit of a turmoil.

24:42 I ask you directly, has the Grammys earned back public trust?

24:46 - The Grammys are earning back the trust

24:50 and we're working and continuing to push

24:52 to make sure that we are earning the trust.

24:56 Some of the mistrust was misplaced, I will say,

25:00 because there are things said that just,

25:02 unfortunately, we're not accurate,

25:04 but we do have a lot of work to do

25:06 and we always have acknowledged that.

25:08 There's things that we need to improve.

25:10 There's things we need to work on,

25:12 but make no mistake about it,

25:13 we're a darn special organization

25:16 when it comes to serving music people.

25:18 The money that we make all pushes back

25:20 into the music community.

25:21 People that have lost their instruments,

25:23 had mental health breakdowns, have medical conditions.

25:26 These are all people that are benefiting from the Academy.

25:29 Not to mention what a Grammy nomination or a win

25:33 can mean to an artist,

25:34 how that can set them up for a future career.

25:36 And also, very importantly,

25:38 how that can be motivation for another artist,

25:41 the next generation, to see somebody like them

25:43 on the stage receiving an award

25:44 and inspire them to wanna pursue a career in music,

25:48 which leads, again, to the cycle of more music,

25:51 more creativity, more consumption,

25:53 more people listening to it,

25:54 more common experiences,

25:56 people coming together around their favorite artists.

25:58 These are the things that music does,

26:00 and that's why the Academy is so important.

26:02 So yeah, we got work to do.

26:04 We'll always continue to get better.

26:05 We'll continue to evolve,

26:06 but where we've come from over the last four years

26:09 to where we are now is very different,

26:11 and we look forward to continuing in that direction,

26:14 that trajectory.

26:15 - Yeah, and listen, you said a lot there.

26:18 One of the things I like to do when I do interviews

26:20 is that I go around and I talk to a lot of young people,

26:22 and I say, "Hey, I got the Grammy CEO coming.

26:24 "What would you ask him?"

26:25 And a lot of young people were talking about

26:27 the relevancy of the Grammys, right?

26:29 And you kinda mentioned how artists really look up

26:31 and they really take and put this award on a pedestal.

26:35 Has that lost that traction, though?

26:37 Because obviously you see the Drakes,

26:39 the Frank Oceans of the world.

26:41 The criticism is there.

26:42 They made it appear like the Grammys

26:44 weren't as important as they once was, right?

26:47 And there's a new generation that's among us now

26:49 who don't look at the Grammys

26:51 like maybe previous generations do.

26:53 How do you make sure that that bridge

26:56 is connected to the new generation

26:57 so that way they will strive to wanna win a Grammy,

27:00 wanna watch the Grammys, right?

27:02 'Cause advertisers are on the line.

27:03 You guys have audiences to bring in.

27:05 CBS doesn't pay y'all for nothing, right?

27:07 They want audiences.

27:09 How do you make sure you don't lose

27:11 that young demographic?

27:13 Because over the last few years,

27:14 the Grammys have been struggling

27:15 when viewership with the young people.

27:17 And it appears the young people

27:19 just don't trust the Grammys

27:20 because they don't think the Grammys

27:21 are even looking at the things that they listen to.

27:23 And I'm referring to cultural hip hop

27:25 and things of that nature.

27:26 How do you make sure that that bridge is protected

27:28 while you're gaining back public trust?

27:30 - We strive to do that by making sure

27:33 that what we do is touching all the right communities,

27:36 whether that's with our membership,

27:38 because everything that we do starts with membership.

27:40 You know, our awards, the nominations,

27:42 the outcomes of those nominations,

27:44 that is derived by our voting mechanism,

27:47 which is driven by our members.

27:48 So we gotta have the right members.

27:49 We have to have relevant members.

27:51 We have to have people in all the different genres

27:53 a part of our organization.

27:54 We have to have them involved in voting.

27:57 In order to do that, we have to prove to them

27:59 that we are worthy.

28:01 We are an organization that they should be supporting,

28:03 they should be a member of.

28:05 And that goes, it goes a long ways

28:07 with what we put on our show,

28:09 how we program our performances,

28:11 how we serve our members.

28:13 But we have to get into the areas where we're lacking.

28:16 We've done that in the past.

28:18 The way we've changed our membership,

28:19 we've reached out to different underserved communities,

28:21 underserved genres, and asked them to come.

28:24 We didn't used to do this.

28:25 We used to sit back as an academy and say,

28:27 "Well, if you wanna join,

28:29 we'll think about letting you in."

28:30 Now we're actively going into spaces where we are lacking,

28:34 and we're saying, "We need you.

28:35 We need your expertise.

28:36 We don't know every genre of music.

28:38 We don't know what's hot in every style, sound,

28:41 what's coming out of different platforms,

28:43 or what's coming out of the studio.

28:45 So come join us.

28:47 Come help us determine

28:49 what are the best records in your genre,

28:51 what are not the best records in your genre,

28:54 and how do we service and honor

28:55 the people from your community?"

28:57 And those are the things that we are actively seeking

29:00 from other people,

29:01 whereas in the past, maybe we didn't do that.

29:03 So I touched on it earlier.

29:05 The membership's been changed.

29:07 The organization from the internal side,

29:09 the staff and the board

29:10 and the elected leadership has all evolved.

29:12 And we are a very different organization

29:14 than we were four or five years ago.

29:16 So my hope is that we are starting

29:18 to build that relevance back.

29:21 We're spending a lot of time talking to artists,

29:23 making sure they know,

29:24 not only are we trying to be the most relevant organization

29:27 through our TV show,

29:28 but we're also trying to make sure

29:29 we're serving music people.

29:31 And that's the big difference.

29:32 When people start to understand

29:34 that we're not just about giving away trophies,

29:36 when anybody gets mad about,

29:37 "Oh, I should've got that nomination.

29:39 I should've won."

29:40 When they understand that the money from the show

29:43 goes right back into the music community,

29:45 maybe the people on their teams

29:46 or in their crew of people

29:48 that had fallen on hard times

29:49 was getting money from the academy,

29:51 they start to realize,

29:52 "Okay, wait a minute.

29:53 Maybe it's not just about my nomination.

29:55 Maybe it's not just about my win."

29:56 And I've had that experience so many times

29:58 when I talk to an artist and I tell them,

30:00 "Last year, we gave $30 million to music people

30:02 who needed help."

30:03 You don't have to be a member to receive that.

30:05 You just have to be a music person,

30:06 someone in our industry.

30:08 And when artists understand that they see,

30:10 "Oh, there's a bigger picture here.

30:12 There's another play that's happening.

30:14 And I want to make sure that I'm supported."

30:15 So that story and that education,

30:17 that understanding in the music community

30:19 is something that we need to do a better job of

30:22 so that they can feel more connected to our organization.

30:25 - I know you guys did the hip hop show,

30:26 salute to hip hop 50 years

30:28 that they've celebrated last year.

30:30 Great show.

30:32 And a few more things to let you get out of here.

30:33 'Cause you're a CEO, Harvey.

30:34 You're busy.

30:35 You got a show that you got to prepare for.

30:37 But are you guys going to take hip hop more seriously?

30:41 Take the culture more seriously from here on out?

30:43 Because it's not going anywhere.

30:45 I'm walking down the mall,

30:46 I'm seeing kids white and black

30:47 and they're singing 50 Cent's song, right?

30:49 "Go Shawty."

30:50 And I'm like, man, it's here, right?

30:53 When we watch the Grammys,

30:54 is that going to be reflected on that show?

30:56 - The Grammys have really,

31:00 have taken hip hop seriously over the last few years.

31:03 And it's always been a very important genre to us.

31:06 But over the last couple of years,

31:07 you saw in our last show,

31:08 we did the longest segment we've ever done

31:10 of almost 13 minutes to tribute hip hop.

31:12 And then we did do a full two hour hip hop show.

31:15 But that's, it's only because it's the right thing to do.

31:18 Hip hop is the dominant genre right now.

31:21 You see, black music in general

31:23 is the most consumed and most created genre.

31:26 So it's not that we don't want to pay attention

31:29 or we haven't paid attention to it.

31:30 It's now evolved to the point where it's a focus for us.

31:34 You'll always see us pay our respects.

31:37 But again, we've got work to do in that community

31:40 and in other communities to make sure

31:42 that we are representing them, you know,

31:45 equitably and fairly and accurately.

31:48 We have to have the right people

31:50 as a part of our organization to do that though.

31:52 So I reach out into the hip hop community and say,

31:54 I need you, we need you to be a part of the academy.

31:56 That's why we started the Black Music Collective.

31:58 The Black Music Collective was formed

32:00 so that we could get input and insight

32:03 from the black music community to help guide us.

32:05 What are the things that we need to pay attention to?

32:08 What are the genres that we might be overlooking or missing

32:10 and how can we do it better?

32:11 So those things have been put in place.

32:14 Hip hop's obviously extremely, extremely important

32:17 to not just the music community, but to the academy.

32:20 And we'll continue to try and accurately represent

32:23 and celebrate that really, really, really important genre.

32:26 - Absolutely.

32:27 Two more things.

32:28 One of which, best African music performance.

32:29 That's a new category this year.

32:32 I ask you, when you look at Africa's music scene,

32:35 what do you see?

32:36 - I see crazy amounts of talent.

32:39 I see new innovative sounds.

32:42 I see influence that's coming, not just to our country,

32:45 but to the rest of the world with what they're doing.

32:48 You're seeing some of the biggest artists in the world

32:49 start to collaborate and feature on Afro beats

32:53 and on piano records and other genres

32:55 coming from the continent.

32:56 So a lot of talent that's a very young continent,

33:00 very creative continent.

33:01 And you're seeing that in the music they're putting out.

33:04 - Right fast, going to the business,

33:06 Los Angeles Times reported in 2020,

33:08 CBS, that deal goes into 2026, right?

33:10 It's more of the license and fee that they pay,

33:12 more than 20 million.

33:13 What's the status of the relationship there?

33:15 It looks like it's a well-protected relationship with CBS

33:18 and you guys will be together again for another few years,

33:20 but long-term, are you guys in negotiations

33:23 about what that's gonna look like?

33:24 Because 2026 will be here before you know it, Harvey.

33:27 We're in 2024 already, right?

33:28 We were just in a pandemic yesterday

33:30 and now 2026 will be here before you know it.

33:32 What's that business looking like?

33:34 - We've had a great relationship with CBS,

33:36 a great partnership for many, many years.

33:38 We'll look to continue that as long as they'll have us

33:42 and we'll see where that goes.

33:43 But the future of media and content is quickly evolving.

33:48 People aren't generally sitting around watching TV

33:52 the way they used to.

33:54 And we could see potentially in the future

33:55 something that would be a multiplicity of ways

33:59 somebody could watch the show,

34:00 whether that be on streaming or in digital,

34:03 traditional linear television.

34:05 So all that will need to be worked out

34:07 and we'll have to continue to look at our show

34:09 and how does it evolve to meet consumers

34:11 where they're consuming content

34:13 and how they like to consume content.

34:15 If that's in conjunction with CBS, we'll see.

34:18 But I do have to say our partnership has been long

34:20 and strong and we hope it continues.

34:23 - Absolutely, 50 plus years, right?

34:24 That's how long that program has been on there.

34:26 So that's a very long time.

34:27 Get you out of here, "Good to Great," right?

34:29 Jim Collins' book, "Good to Great."

34:31 And I ask you, what's the difference

34:34 between a good music producer/A&R and a great one?

34:38 - Well, I'll touch more on the producer side

34:42 because that's really where I come from.

34:43 But a good producer is probably a nice musician.

34:47 They probably can write songs.

34:48 They probably know the technical side

34:52 of producing.

34:54 A great producer has the interpersonal skills,

34:57 knows how to motivate and knows how to interact

35:00 with an artist because really at the end of the day,

35:01 that's what a producer is supposed to do

35:03 and an A&R for that matter,

35:04 is to get the best performance from an artist or a singer.

35:09 So how do you do that?

35:10 What are the conversation moments that you have to go into?

35:12 What are the techniques that you have to deploy

35:15 or employ to get somebody to feel comfortable

35:18 or feel confident or feel upset or feel angry

35:21 to perform in a way that really, really is meaningful

35:24 and the listener can feel that.

35:26 So a great producer knows how to get that out of an artist.

35:29 A great producer, of course, is gonna be a great musician,

35:32 a great songwriter, but listening, communicating,

35:36 interacting with talent and other people

35:38 that it takes to make a record is to me

35:41 what makes a great producer along with taste.

35:44 You have to be able to discern what's gonna work,

35:47 what's happening in the current environment,

35:49 what are consumers listening to,

35:51 what does this artist need to be doing,

35:53 what are the abilities of this artist

35:55 and what do they have the agency to do in their career

35:57 for their next record?

35:59 Taking all that into consideration

36:00 and being able to collaborate with them and listen

36:02 and push them to do their best

36:04 is what makes a great producer in my mind.

36:06 - Absolutely, well, listen, man, I hope you become a great,

36:08 well, you already are, a great CEO, right,

36:10 at the Recording Academy.

36:11 Harvey Mason Jr., thank you so much for the time.

36:13 A great show on the horizon

36:15 and I hope one of these days I get to be in a crowd, right?

36:18 I get to just enjoy it,

36:19 all this greatness right on stage here,

36:21 but definitely will tune in to Grammys February 4th.

36:23 Appreciate all the time, sir.

36:24 We hope to have you back again

36:26 to talk more Grammys in the years to come.

36:29 - Anytime, I'd love to, I love what you're doing,

36:31 so thank you for having me.

36:32 - Appreciate it, thanks a lot, man.

36:34 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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