Former News Limited CEO Kim Williams has been chosen as the next chair of the ABC. Mr Williams will take over from current chair Ita Buttrose when her term ends in March.
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00:00 King Williams, thank you for making time for us here at the ABC.
00:05 You're the new boss, it's always good to hear from you.
00:08 The moment that your announcement of the new job has been made, the ABC is an institution
00:13 that provokes a lot of public debate, a lot of public scrutiny, perhaps more so than some
00:19 of the other organisations you've led in recent times.
00:23 How does that sit with you?
00:24 How does that frame your approach to the job?
00:27 I think I've had constant public scrutiny in most of the organisations that I've run.
00:34 I was the CEO of the Australian Film Commission back in the 1980s and it was certainly the
00:41 subject of very regular scrutiny, both in this building in Parliament House and externally
00:47 in a variety of media environments as we reshaped and reset all of the basis of film and television
00:56 production incentives in Australia.
01:00 At the Film Finance Corporation, which was an outcome from that, there was a lot of scrutiny.
01:05 The scrutiny at Fox Studios, setting up a film studio in the centre of the eastern suburbs
01:12 of Sydney was a matter of apparently dire consequence for the good citizens of the eastern
01:19 suburbs and received a huge amount of media scrutiny, including I think one of the largest
01:24 campaigns the Sydney Morning Herald has ever run.
01:27 So I'm not averse to scrutiny and in fact I think scrutiny is part and parcel of things
01:34 that matter and the ABC is an enormously important national institution to the sense of togetherness
01:43 in Australia and it is a mechanism for Australians talking with each other and talking about
01:49 their nation and examining their nation and interrogating the directions of the nation.
01:57 It has a charter which is unique in the Australian legislative landscape and I think the corollary
02:03 to that is scrutiny because to get the ABC properly run, properly managed is in fact
02:09 a creature of this Parliament and if you're a creature of the Parliament you better stand
02:13 up to scrutiny because it's a public institution and it's accountable to the public.
02:18 Do you think in some of the discussion around the ABC, scrutiny verges into something else?
02:24 Verges into vexatious complaints or things like that?
02:28 Look I think in any media environment one encounters a certain degree of vexatious representation
02:39 that comes with news in particular where clearly often emotions can be very volatile.
02:49 It is important that the ABC at all times maintains a balanced and sober response to
02:57 that sort of scrutiny and defends its position in a way that is not grandiloquent but is
03:03 in fact calm, measured and authoritative.
03:10 It doesn't particularly bother me that sometimes people can be fairly extreme in their expression
03:17 of things, about things that they care about.
03:20 What is important is that the ABC is professionally measured in response.
03:24 Do you think the ABC has been measured in its response to some of the recent criticism
03:27 it's been receiving such as with regards to its coverage of the Israel-Gaza war?
03:32 Matt, I'm not yet the chair of the ABC.
03:35 That won't happen until March.
03:36 You are a public consumer though.
03:37 I guess you've been sitting there at home watching, reading, listening to the...
03:40 That will not happen until March and I think it's best that I take extensive soundings
03:48 with the workforce of the ABC, with my colleagues on the ABC board and obviously with the editorial
03:54 and general leadership group at the ABC before I venture into the various potholes with dealing
04:07 with responses to current news and current affairs coverage.
04:11 Taking some of those soundings, you'd clearly be aware of some of the disquiet within the
04:16 organisation at the moment.
04:17 It was only earlier this week that a no confidence motion was passed by some union members, 125
04:23 to 3 against the current managing director, David Anderson.
04:28 Given that sentiment is strong within the ABC workforce, how do you, when you're getting
04:36 those soundings from staff, how do you seek to address those sort of morale concerns or
04:41 those concerns about editorial direction?
04:43 Look, I think the best response in all matters of morale, which reflect intense opinion and
04:54 feeling about directions editorially is to listen and to encourage discussion where there
05:03 is no sense of punitive response, but there is a sense of genuine managed engagement.
05:12 And my response is to say, I'm eager to listen.
05:16 Is it a difficult task considering how emotive this current conflict is in terms of the plethora
05:24 of issues that a journalist is asked to cover?
05:27 This has inspired a response like few other stories or issues currently before us.
05:35 In all matters of editorial, it is imperative that the ABC reliably adheres to principles
05:43 of integrity, independence, and a continuous aspiration to the extent possible in human
05:50 affairs for freedom from bias.
05:54 It is fundamental to the charter and the remit of the ABC that it reliably adheres to those
06:01 three principles.
06:03 I see no reason in terms of the current discussions that are taking place to veer away from those
06:12 three guiding principles.
06:14 You've had a long career in the media, you've had a long career picking up the phone call
06:18 to angry people of varying levels of influence.
06:22 I've fielded many, many hundreds of angry phone calls in a long career.
06:26 Probably within and outside of the organisations you run.
06:31 Does it trouble you when you see reports of the influence from lobby groups or interest
06:36 groups with an issue like the Israel-Gaza War, lawyers writing petitions?
06:42 There will always be groups that are committed to advocacy trying to influence the direction
06:48 and the way in which matters are covered in an organisation with the editorial reach of
06:54 the ABC.
06:56 What matters is the way in which the ABC responds to it.
06:59 So what's your general approach if you were receiving a cascade or cavalcade, deluge even,
07:05 of correspondence from outside?
07:06 To adhere to the principles of integrity and independence and to always advocate for a
07:16 course that is free from bias.
07:21 Bias is often in the eyes of a beholder.
07:24 One needs to obviously have a framework that gives some intelligent sense to that sense
07:30 of a bias-free approach.
07:32 Has there been a bias in our reporting so far on this issue?
07:35 Look, I'm not going to comment on current editorial directions and editorial content.
07:43 I think it's highly inappropriate that I do that.
07:47 The ABC board had a meeting yesterday.
07:50 They have endorsed the current position and I think I need to respect that.
07:56 I remind you that I'm not yet the chair of the ABC.
07:59 As a consumer, I put the question to you anyway.
08:02 Let's move on.
08:03 It's something linked, but it's an issue I think many journalists grapple with, and that
08:08 is social media.
08:10 How much do you think journalists within the ABC, outside the ABC, should be free to have
08:17 a social media presence?
08:19 And how much does that, do you think, put them at risk of public attack from people
08:25 who, as you've highlighted, bias is often in the eyes of the holder?
08:30 I think the line between individual opinion and advocacy and the professional responsibility
08:41 as a working member of an institution, which is a creature of the parliament and is accountable
08:48 at law under the act of that parliament, is a very, very complex question or a very simple
08:56 one.
08:57 Personally, I think there is a tendency in a lot of modern exchange for people to empower
09:05 their personal opinion at the expense of the institutional responsibility to the public
09:15 to adopt an independent stance which reflects professional integrity.
09:21 And I think it's a very, very delicate transgression when one moves from one's institutional responsibility,
09:34 one's legislative responsibility as all members of the ABC workforce are respondents under
09:41 the ABC Act.
09:43 It's a delicate matter when you choose to set that aside and express your own opinion
09:51 as being of maximum, at times triumphant, purpose.
09:57 I'm not sure that's a wise thing to do.
10:01 There are many, many writings in contemporary literature about these editorial questions.
10:06 The most recent is Marty Barron's excellent book, Collisions of Power, Trump, Bezos and
10:14 the Washington Post.
10:16 Marty is the former executive editor of the Washington Post.
10:21 Before that, he was the executive editor of the Boston Globe and ran all of the investigations
10:27 into the transgressions by the Catholic Church in Boston.
10:32 And before that was with the Miami Herald as executive editor.
10:35 Very great editor and someone I've had the privilege to talk to on a number of occasions.
10:43 He deals with the issue of social media in a way that I think is reflective of best practice
10:49 in managing a complex, moving world where diversity is properly being given the status
10:58 that it deserves, where there are a number of changing modalities in delivering information
11:07 and where media organizations need to really do a reset in the way they think about these
11:13 matters and create protocols that are fit for purpose and that are respectful and that
11:22 engage with these issues in a way which is sophisticated and reflective of the very,
11:29 very deep changes that are taking place in social communication and media delivery.
11:37 Last time you were employed by the ABC, early 90s, I won't give too much away, that was
11:42 my play school era.
11:44 A lot has changed with the organization since then.
11:47 It has grown in terms of its output and its footprint.
11:52 Where do you see the ABC, I know you haven't started the job, but in five years' time when
11:58 your appointment comes to an end, what's your vision for the institution?
12:04 I think the role at the ABC is always the same in that it must reflect contemporary
12:13 relevance.
12:14 It cannot bathe in a past memory.
12:18 It can draw on past memories, but it must assure itself that its pathway is one which
12:25 reflects the best in contemporary relevance.
12:29 By contemporary relevance, I mean in terms of the content that is produced by the ABC,
12:36 the way in which it is made available to the Australian community, the way in which it
12:42 employs people, and the way in which it trains people and sustains true North standards.
12:50 Contemporary relevance is one way of describing it.
12:52 I guess at the more extreme end of the spectrum, people would say, is it a case of adapt or
12:56 die?
12:57 Well, you must adapt or die.
13:02 Many people would, I mean many of our critics, speak about the engagement with digital media
13:09 as being beyond the remit of the ABC.
13:12 The fact that digital media is fully encompassed in the Act and fully comprehended in terms
13:18 of amendments which have been made to the Act is cast aside as being in some way an
13:24 irrelevant consideration.
13:28 It's an old adage that if you want everything to stay the same, everything around you has
13:33 to change to accommodate that position.
13:37 That's clearly foolhardy.
13:39 The ABC must adapt or die.
13:42 Kim Williams, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
13:45 Congratulations again on your appointment and we hope to see you frequently during your
13:48 term as Chair of the ABC.
13:50 You can count on seeing me regularly.
13:52 [BLANK_AUDIO]