Sunderland Echo writers James Copley and Joe Nicholson return with another episode of The Roar Podcast. Here, the duo discuss transfers, the loss to Hull City and the backlash surrounding head coach Michael Beale.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast
00:21 brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:23 My name's Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by
00:26 my fellow Sunderland writer, James Copley
00:28 for our regular Monday podcast.
00:31 Of course, we're going to be looking back
00:32 on Friday's 1-0 defeat against Hull City
00:35 at the Stadium of Light.
00:37 The backlash towards head coach Michael Beale,
00:40 which followed after the game
00:41 and also the latest transfer news
00:44 with just under two weeks of the window remaining.
00:48 James, it's been a few days now
00:49 since that game against Hull
00:51 and it felt like a really damaging night
00:54 for Sunderland, all the frustration
00:55 that we've kind of seen in recent weeks,
00:57 the debacle around the Newcastle game
00:59 with the Black Cats bar,
01:01 the decision to sack Tony Mowbray,
01:03 not being able to sign a striker so far this month,
01:06 it all kind of seemed to come to a head on Friday night
01:09 and those chants against Michael Beale,
01:12 chanting you're getting sacked in the morning
01:13 from the Sunderland fans.
01:15 So just how damaging a night do you think it was
01:18 looking back now a few days on
01:19 and how damaging do you think it's going to be now
01:22 moving forward for the rest of the season?
01:24 - I think it'll be, yeah, it's damaging for him.
01:28 I know Wise Men say the Sunderland fan podcast
01:31 ran a poll and I think it was 91% of Sunderland fans
01:34 wanted Michael Beale sacked.
01:37 That's after seven games,
01:39 3,000 people voted in that poll.
01:41 There was also the Beale out hashtag,
01:44 which was trending quite high up the charts
01:47 last night on Twitter.
01:49 So there's clearly some pretty strong feelings there.
01:52 Is it fair after seven games?
01:55 I think from an outsider's perspective,
01:57 you would look in and say that he hasn't been given
01:59 enough time, but I think Sunderland have regressed
02:02 pretty starkly in that time, in those seven games.
02:07 We shouldn't rewrite history.
02:08 Maybe Sunderland were on the slide under Tony Mowbray.
02:12 You know, he wasn't exactly doing well,
02:15 but had he earned the right to maybe get through
02:17 to the rest of the season
02:18 or get through another January transfer window,
02:20 probably for me.
02:22 Again, let's not rewrite history and say that
02:25 every Sunderland fan wanted Tony Mowbray to stay
02:27 because there was a significant portion
02:29 that wanted Tony Mowbray gone.
02:32 But when Tony Mowbray went,
02:33 I think there was an acceptance that Sunderland
02:35 were going to try and advance the club
02:37 with a young, bright head coach,
02:40 somebody exciting, a potential unknown.
02:43 And it's, you know, it's been well reported
02:45 that they had flirtations with Will still,
02:47 but they wouldn't pay the compensation fee.
02:50 So Sunderland have gone and done what they've done
02:52 the last two times,
02:53 the managerial vacancies being vacant,
02:55 and they've gone with what they say is the best candidate
02:58 in the free agent market.
03:00 And that just comes, that helps sort of strengthen
03:03 the narrative that, you know,
03:06 Sunderland are doing things on the cheap,
03:07 all of that sort of thing,
03:08 that they're not willing to spend money.
03:10 You know, Michael Beale comes from a big club in Rangers,
03:13 having not set the world alight.
03:15 You know, and Sunderland fans aren't daft.
03:17 People say about his win percentage at Rangers,
03:21 there's two things matter at Rangers,
03:22 and that's winning trophies and beating Southwick.
03:24 And unfortunately he couldn't do either.
03:27 It didn't help that he got beat 4-0
03:28 in his first game against Coventry.
03:30 There was chance for Tony Mowbray during that game.
03:35 And, you know, the form hasn't been good.
03:37 It's been patchy.
03:40 The Newcastle United game, the debacle around that,
03:42 I think is contributing to the bad mood.
03:44 But in terms of Michael Beale,
03:45 take that game in isolation,
03:48 Sunderland didn't really offer much.
03:49 We expected, hopefully,
03:50 they could be in the game for a bit longer.
03:52 They were expected to lose,
03:53 but sort of tactically we're not seeing
03:55 what we thought we were going to from Michael Beale.
03:57 You know, Christian Speakman in that first press conference
03:59 said it was some of the best training sessions
04:02 he's ever seen, and I've no doubt that he's a good,
04:05 he is a good coach and he's good on the training field.
04:08 You know, he's of Liverpool and Chelsea stock,
04:10 but his best work so far, really,
04:13 in football has come as a number two.
04:15 He had a brief period as a number one with QPR
04:18 and he was doing okay there,
04:19 although they did start to slide.
04:20 So I can understand Sunderland fans' frustration.
04:24 I think it's two big games coming up now
04:27 against Stoke and Middlesbrough.
04:29 But, yeah, those chants were very damaging.
04:34 You know, and that game as well, you were just watching it
04:36 and you just knew Sunderland weren't going to do anything.
04:38 Yes, they had possession.
04:38 Yes, they had more shots than Hull City.
04:41 But you could just tell a mile off that it was never,
04:44 they were never going to get anything out of that game, really,
04:46 despite it being fairly even for large parts of it.
04:49 You just got the impression, really,
04:50 that if anybody was going to score,
04:51 it was going to be Hull City.
04:55 And, of course, Michael Bale addressed those chants
04:58 towards it after the game and mentioned
05:00 that Sunderland fans should get behind the team,
05:02 which has gone down pretty badly
05:04 because Sunderland fans always tend to get behind the team.
05:06 And actually, those chants weren't directed at the team.
05:09 They were directed at Michael Bale.
05:11 I do feel sorry for him in some respects.
05:13 He is human.
05:16 He's had a tough start in the life of his Sunderland career,
05:18 but it's going to be very, very, very tough for him to bounce back.
05:24 And when there is this strength of feeling towards a manager,
05:28 it never really equates to long-term success.
05:30 The two that spring to my mind are Phil Parkinson.
05:35 He did badly to start with, then he did OK,
05:37 and then he was eventually sacked.
05:40 Lee Johnson, no, not Lee Johnson, sorry, Simon Grayson.
05:44 That didn't go too well.
05:45 I think it's very hard to recover once these things have happened.
05:48 And, you know, I hope he does recover,
05:50 and I hope Sunderland beat Stoke,
05:52 and I hope Sunderland beat Middlesbrough,
05:53 but it's hard to see at the moment.
05:56 But stranger things have happened, of course.
05:58 I think the thing is, Joe, that Michael Bale's on a two-and-a-half-year contract,
06:01 so it's an interesting situation from a club point of view as well.
06:08 Yeah, as you mentioned there, some of the former managers,
06:09 and you do kind of get an impression when it's going to be very hard
06:13 for the managers to come back, and it felt like on Friday night
06:15 it was going to be very difficult for Michael Bale to come back from that.
06:20 And as I mentioned at the start,
06:21 I think it's a factor of things that have led to this frustration
06:24 with the whole thing around the Newcastle game,
06:26 with the lack of signings, with the fact that Tony Mowbray was sacked,
06:29 and not everyone agreed with that decision.
06:31 So Michael Bale came in and he almost wasn't at neutral.
06:34 He had something to prove already.
06:36 So, yeah, and we are only seven games in,
06:39 and it does seem harsh for these chants to be happening.
06:42 But if you look at the kind of performances in recent weeks,
06:47 I've spoke to some of the players in recent weeks.
06:49 I spoke to Dan Neal after the Ipswich game
06:51 and asked what kind of changes have we seen under Michael Bale.
06:54 And he said there's been a lot more focus out of possession
06:57 or more focus out of possession than in possession compared to Tony Mowbray.
07:01 I then put that to Luka Nairn at the weekend
07:04 after the game against Hull on Friday,
07:06 and he kind of said something similar.
07:08 And if you look at the stats,
07:09 Sunderland are creating less chances under Bale.
07:12 You look at their xG in the last few games,
07:15 the whole game their xG was 0.77,
07:18 the Ipswich game 0.48,
07:21 the Preston game, which they won 2-0, 0.94.
07:25 And Sunderland's xG on average has been around 1.68.
07:28 That includes the games that Tony Mowbray was in charge.
07:31 Now, of course, there were some games where,
07:34 similar to Friday night, under Mowbray,
07:35 remember the Huddersfield game where they lost 1-0 at the Stadium of Light,
07:38 the Cardiff game similar.
07:40 So it wasn't all completely clicking under Mowbray,
07:42 but it does seem like under Bale,
07:45 there's been this more pragmatic approach,
07:47 but it's not getting the results which they'd have hoped for,
07:50 which kind of goes against the kind of structure
07:53 that Sunderland have been talking about,
07:55 the hierarchy that we have a style of play.
07:57 If one head coach leaves, we'll bring in another head coach
08:00 that has a similar style of play.
08:01 And it seems like under Bale,
08:03 there's kind of been a bit more of a pragmatic approach
08:05 and it's also not been getting results,
08:06 which has been costly in the last few weeks.
08:09 - It's definitely more pragmatic,
08:11 but the thing is, if you're going to be,
08:13 I think the thing with the Sunderland fans is,
08:15 is if you're going to be knocking on the playoffs,
08:17 if you're going to be around sixth, seventh, eighth,
08:21 ninth, 10th place,
08:22 then you may as well play some exciting football.
08:24 It does count for a lot stylistically.
08:26 Fans pay a lot of money.
08:27 You know, I understand it's nice to get clean sheets,
08:31 go back to Sam Allardyce, always respect the point,
08:33 all that sort of stuff.
08:34 You do need to be defensively sound.
08:37 I'm all for, you know,
08:41 without the ball out of possession work.
08:43 It is important,
08:45 but watching Sunderland is a tough sell at the moment.
08:49 But I think obviously a lot of the responsibility
08:53 has fallen on Michael Beale's shoulders,
08:55 and rightly so to a degree,
08:57 because Sunderland have progressed.
08:59 It's clear, the numbers bear it out,
09:02 and all the numbers that you mentioned in terms of XG,
09:05 and also just the general eye test.
09:06 You can see they're not as good.
09:08 They're not as exciting.
09:09 There's something missing,
09:11 but you do also have to look at Michael Beale's squad.
09:14 Those shortcomings in that squad have been there.
09:16 Should it be doing better?
09:17 Yes, but that squad needs a refresh,
09:19 and it needs some added quality.
09:22 It needs some added experience.
09:24 It needs a sentiment fielder who can play as a six
09:26 to add tactical variety.
09:28 It needs a goal scorer.
09:29 You know, you could argue it needs somebody
09:31 with a bit of status like Ahmad as well.
09:34 There's a lot at play at Sunderland,
09:35 and I think he is copping a little bit of flack.
09:38 Not that people are blaming him
09:40 for the Newcastle United debacle
09:41 in terms of the off-field matters,
09:43 but it's almost like a perfect storm, Joe, isn't it?
09:46 As you mentioned, all of that stuff.
09:47 He's sort of not guilty by association
09:50 because none of it's his fault.
09:51 None of that's even Christian Speakman's fault,
09:53 but when you've got the team not performing on the pitch,
09:56 that falls at Michael Beale's door.
09:58 You've got a squad that needs a refresh,
10:00 which falls at Christian Speakman's door,
10:02 and you've got a Newcastle United ticket and debacle
10:05 and a commercial shambles at the club,
10:06 which falls at ownership and the chief operating officer.
10:10 So you do have that sort of triumvirate perfect storm,
10:13 and it's all contributing towards a backlash,
10:18 and rightly so, I would say.
10:19 I think there's many facets to it.
10:20 Not necessarily all of it is Michael Beale's fault,
10:23 but the bit that he can affect, the bit on the pitch,
10:26 he's not doing good enough, and you have to say.
10:30 Christian Speakman, again,
10:32 this is a conversation in front of the podcast,
10:33 but Christian Speakman, I think, by and large,
10:35 has done very well at Sunderland.
10:36 I think where Sunderland have fallen down
10:37 has been the last window.
10:39 Some of these players that he's brought in
10:41 clearly weren't ready to contribute immediately.
10:42 They may well become good players for Sunderland,
10:44 some of them.
10:45 In fact, I've got no doubt some of them will,
10:47 but we just haven't hit the ground running
10:49 in terms of signings.
10:51 The parameters have gone too much towards youth
10:54 and inexperience where really getting rid of Guc and getting
10:59 rid of Danny Bart, I think they could have contributed.
11:01 I think their experience would have been invaluable
11:02 in some of these games.
11:03 People might disagree with that.
11:04 That's fine.
11:06 You know, leaders on and off the pitch,
11:08 I think, is really important with a young group.
11:10 So there's all that at play as well.
11:13 And yeah, Michael Beale's copping most of the flack
11:16 for it at the moment, but there's a fair amount
11:18 for Kiriluidreifus and a fair amount
11:20 for Christian Speakman as well.
11:22 And even looking at Christian Speakman,
11:23 he's limited in what he can do in the transfer market
11:26 because Kiriluidreifus sets the budget
11:28 because it's his club.
11:30 So it's a very interesting situation
11:32 at Sunderland at the moment.
11:33 And of course, we're all waiting
11:34 for that red and white army minutes
11:35 to get a little bit more clarity on off-field matters.
11:37 So it's just incredible, Joe.
11:40 We've obviously covered this club for a long time
11:42 and the pace at which it can all turn south,
11:46 which has been a couple of months,
11:48 is incredible, really.
11:50 - Well, we'll come on to transfers later in the podcast.
11:52 We'll just talk about, as you said,
11:54 what Michael Beale can control,
11:56 the decisions that he made before Friday's game.
11:58 He recalled Nazir Hussain up front
12:00 after he dropped to the bench for the Ipswich game.
12:03 Abdullah Barr dropped out of the side
12:04 and also Adil El-Essi was unavailable.
12:06 So we've got to kind of factor in
12:08 there has been some injuries for Sunderland.
12:11 El-Essi had been unavailable,
12:12 Serkan unavailable,
12:13 and Huggins has left a big gap at left back
12:15 where Hulmes had to move across.
12:17 And then Jenson Sealt came in at right back.
12:19 Also Patrick Roberts has been a big loss as well,
12:22 which it felt on Friday night
12:24 with Pritchard going out to the right-hand side,
12:26 Sealt coming in at right back.
12:28 It was very much reliant on Jack Clark on the other side.
12:32 It was very narrow.
12:33 There was not a lot of width in the side
12:35 and that kind of made it easy for,
12:37 or easier for Hull to kind of keep Sunderland at arm's length.
12:40 But what did you kind of make of the decisions
12:42 that Biel made on Friday?
12:43 Dropping Barr as well,
12:44 who I thought had a decent game at Ipswich,
12:47 bringing Roosin back into the side.
12:49 It seems like he's chopping and changing a bit,
12:50 which doesn't seem to kind of be helping
12:51 the kind of flow of the team.
12:54 - I think starting him on the right,
12:56 it does provide problems
12:57 because he drifts inside so much.
13:00 He starts playing as a number 10 a little bit more.
13:03 Roosin's been in and out of the side.
13:06 It is very difficult tactically.
13:07 I actually thought against Hull City,
13:09 Pritchard drifting in,
13:10 often Sealt a lot of purchase on the right-hand side.
13:13 He was in a lot of space,
13:13 but he's not on attack at right back.
13:15 So it's very, very difficult for him
13:17 to sort of affect the game.
13:19 So it's a struggle tactically,
13:20 but then again,
13:21 does he really have the players on the bench to change it
13:23 who are sort of oven ready to come in and affect the game?
13:26 So tough sell.
13:28 Again, it's tough to watch Sunderland at the moment.
13:30 Tactically, it's not really working.
13:33 I think we all thought Michael Biel
13:35 would be a bit more pragmatic,
13:36 and perhaps he is,
13:37 but I think we all thought he might be able to get a tune
13:39 out of the Sunderland side tactically,
13:42 and we might win a few more marginal games,
13:44 but it's actually gone the other way,
13:45 which is interesting.
13:47 So yeah, it's tough.
13:49 But again, he needs help in January.
13:51 He really, really does need some help in January,
13:53 as Tony Mowbray would have needed help in January.
13:56 So it's like the chicken and the egg at the moment.
13:58 Saying that, he should definitely be doing better
14:00 with the tools at his disposal, in my opinion.
14:05 - Well, we'll come on to January now then.
14:07 Sunderland have kind of made it clear,
14:08 and Biel's kind of said in press conferences
14:10 over the past few weeks,
14:11 that a striker is kind of the priority,
14:13 and it seems like Sunderland are maybe prepared
14:16 to alter their approach to bringing a striker
14:18 that's maybe a bit older, a bit more experienced,
14:20 and that can come in and be the here and now,
14:22 and affects things immediately,
14:24 rather than being someone that's ready
14:26 in two, three years' time,
14:27 as they kind of look to do in the summer.
14:29 So the striker seems to be the priority,
14:31 as you mentioned earlier in the podcast,
14:33 central midfield, we've said for,
14:35 I don't know how many transfer windows at Sunderland
14:37 seem light in central midfield,
14:38 and have lacked that kind of number six to kind of come in,
14:41 especially when Corey Evans picked up his injury
14:43 now a year ago.
14:45 And it also seems like they're short at left back,
14:48 given the injuries to Sirkin, to Huggins,
14:50 Humes having to move across,
14:52 and they're having to move Seal across and out of position.
14:54 So there's three positions straight away
14:57 that you feel that Sunderland probably need
14:58 to strengthen in January,
15:00 and I'm not sure they're gonna,
15:01 do you think they're gonna bring in three players
15:03 before now and the end of the window on the 1st of February?
15:07 - It doesn't look likely at the moment, does it?
15:10 Obviously the transfer window's incredibly slow,
15:12 I think for everybody, Championship, Premier League included,
15:15 we're sort of all waiting for those first few dominoes
15:18 to start, and then, you know,
15:20 hopefully stuff will progress.
15:22 Sunderland have been linked with a fair few players.
15:25 I think the problem with Sunderland half
15:26 is that everybody knows what they need and what they want.
15:28 Everybody knows that they need a striker.
15:30 Everybody knows that they probably need a centre midfielder.
15:32 In January, you have to pay a premium to get players,
15:35 especially experienced players,
15:36 especially players that are gonna be able to come in
15:39 and make an impact.
15:40 So Christian Spiegman's got a job on his hands
15:43 to negate that Kirill Iliou Dreyfus
15:44 might need to put his hand in his pocket.
15:46 Will he do that? I don't know.
15:48 Will they break with a model?
15:50 And there's a lot of talk about breaking with a model.
15:52 I don't think it needs scrapping by any means.
15:54 I think for large parts of it, it's been good.
15:56 It just needs the parameters adjusted a little bit.
15:58 And I think that's part of life.
15:59 You have to be, you know, we're talking about pragmatism,
16:03 but you do have to change a little bit as well.
16:05 Just because something's worked well for a year, six months,
16:08 just because it's got you out of League One,
16:10 you know, it doesn't mean you have to rigidly stick to that.
16:12 You can make some little tweaks here and there
16:14 to improve things.
16:15 There can be some flexibility.
16:17 Nobody's saying let's scrap all the good work
16:19 that's being done at the academy.
16:20 Nobody's saying let's stop playing young players.
16:23 Nobody's saying let's not try and pick up Dennis Ogun
16:25 or try and pick up Adji Alisi or Niall Huggins or Tre Hulme
16:28 or the Ross Stuarts of this world.
16:30 People like that.
16:31 Nobody's saying let's not use the loan market smartly.
16:34 All people are saying is,
16:35 could we just add some experience and a striker here
16:37 and a fully fleshed out squad.
16:40 We're sort of being through this first phase.
16:43 And I think, you know, it is time for it to be moved
16:47 up a level possibly.
16:49 You know, is this a transition season
16:51 that wasn't really presented to us as such
16:53 at the beginning of the season?
16:54 And if it was a transition season,
16:56 then why sack Tony Mubra
16:57 because he was doing a reasonable job.
16:59 So it's a weird one.
17:02 This is now Sunderland's longest time
17:04 spent outside the top division.
17:06 It's an entire history.
17:07 So you can understand why Sunderland fans
17:10 would prefer the club to get there.
17:11 That's not arrogance.
17:12 That's just Sunderland fans wanting the best for their club.
17:15 You know, they want to compete at the top
17:16 end of the championship.
17:17 They want to, you know, try and get to the Premier League.
17:19 That should be the aim of every championship team
17:21 with ambition, which is what Kiril Uluodifus has said
17:24 Sunderland have now is ambition.
17:25 So I think for me, as I say, Michael Beale needs help.
17:30 Nobody's saying go out and break the bank.
17:33 I don't think anybody's saying that either,
17:35 but I think the strategy does need to be moved
17:39 along a little bit.
17:40 And you know, there's Ross Stewart money sat there as well.
17:43 There's going to be Clark money at some point.
17:46 Again, nobody's saying break the bank on wages either,
17:48 but can they do something in January?
17:50 Yes, it's notoriously hard,
17:52 but you know, can we go and get a key from,
17:55 you know, really lay a marker down
17:56 and try and get something.
17:58 And there's lots to consider with transfers.
18:00 It's key for me with the right fit for Sunderland
18:02 on and off the field as well.
18:03 I do think that's important,
18:04 but yeah, it's been a pretty dull January so far.
18:09 And unluckily for us, as Phil mentioned last week,
18:12 it's probably all going to come down to deadline day.
18:13 We're probably going to be scrambling around
18:15 for a lot of last minute things,
18:16 as will other clubs as well.
18:19 And that's just sort of the way it goes.
18:22 - As you mentioned there, I think the transfer approach
18:24 in previous windows has been very admirable
18:26 and Sunderland have made some excellent signings.
18:27 You look at people like Try Hume, like Dennis Sirkin,
18:30 like Adjilisi, Pierre Equart that they've picked up from
18:34 for very low fees and other clubs
18:36 didn't want these players and Sunderland have done well
18:38 to bring them in and they've proved to be
18:40 very good signings.
18:41 But I think last season, they kind of had
18:43 almost like a perfect balance, didn't they?
18:45 With like your experienced players in there
18:47 with your Danny Bart, with your Lyndon Gooch.
18:49 Corey Evans was obviously there
18:50 in the first half of the season.
18:52 And it seemed there was a good balance
18:53 between the experienced players
18:55 and the younger players coming through.
18:56 Whereas now it seems they've gone very far the other way
19:00 to the wards of younger players.
19:02 Sunderland have allowed people like Bart, like Gooch,
19:05 people that were very influential
19:06 in the dressing room to move on.
19:08 And it now feels like when the team are going
19:10 through a tough period, who's going to be the ones
19:12 to kind of step up and really take the teams through that.
19:15 I mean, we get a player after every game
19:18 and we got Luke O'Nion on Friday after the whole game
19:21 and you really didn't see who else it was going to be.
19:23 It could have been kind of the club put a player up
19:26 after every game.
19:27 And last week it was Dan Neal, who's a very good talker.
19:30 And I think a very good, is a leader in the team
19:33 at still a very young age.
19:34 You forget how young he kind of is,
19:37 the way he talks and how well he speaks.
19:38 But it's kind of, you knew it was going to be Dan Neal
19:41 or Luke O'Nion coming out to face the press
19:43 because they couldn't put anyone else.
19:45 They couldn't put up one of the younger players.
19:47 But in terms of other players coming in,
19:50 Sunderland have been linked with Jan Anveer.
19:53 Phil, our colleague asked Michael Dale about him
19:57 after the game on Friday
19:58 and he kind of dismissed those rumours.
20:00 So it doesn't look like maybe that one's going to happen,
20:03 but where else do you think Sunderland
20:05 do need to bring players in?
20:06 We've mentioned centre midfield,
20:07 we've mentioned left back, mentioned up front.
20:10 What should be now the priority?
20:12 If Sunderland could bring in one or two players
20:14 to this squad, who would you like to come in?
20:16 And where do you think needs addressing the most?
20:19 I think position-wise, you've nailed it.
20:21 Perhaps some cover for the left and right back spot
20:23 if I'm being greedy.
20:25 A defender in the Danny Barth ilk,
20:27 I thought letting him go was, yeah,
20:31 was a strange decision at the time.
20:33 And I think it's proved to be.
20:34 So I know Sunderland want to play out from the back
20:36 and Luke O'Nion's numbers in terms of playing the ball out
20:39 for the back are actually quite good.
20:40 So I do get that argument.
20:42 But as you actually mentioned, Joe,
20:45 rather than positions, which I think are obvious,
20:48 I think for me, it's about experience and know-how.
20:50 Just in life generally,
20:52 say, looking back to when we got our jobs at the Echo,
20:56 obviously you were six months in before me,
20:58 but if you'd have just sort of catapulted us
21:00 into those roles and we didn't have the guidance
21:03 of the lads that had been there for a couple of years
21:05 or our bosses, like we wouldn't have known what to do.
21:07 You don't sort of learn your trade instantly.
21:10 It does take time.
21:11 And you do learn by looking at other people as well
21:14 and people telling you, no, you need to do this.
21:16 It's about experience.
21:18 As I say, I don't think anybody is suggesting
21:20 that we just scrap having young players at the club
21:22 because they've provided us
21:23 with some absolutely amazing stories.
21:25 But yeah, it is missing that experience at the moment.
21:30 And that's what I'd like to see rectified.
21:31 And it's just a shame really,
21:33 because progress for progress sake
21:36 sometimes means you don't progress at all.
21:39 And I think that's what actually happened
21:40 in the summer with Guc in Bath.
21:41 I know fans can argue about Guc's impact at Stoke
21:45 and Bath's impact at Norwich.
21:47 But when there were Sunderland players,
21:48 they contributed and they did well for us,
21:51 particularly Guc having the know-how
21:53 and passion of somebody who's been at the club for so long.
21:56 He did contribute on the pitch as well, was versatile.
22:00 And just somebody who can say,
22:01 well, this is what it means to play for Sunderland.
22:03 I think that's really important.
22:04 Obviously, you have that with O9
22:05 and Paterson and Neil to a degree,
22:06 but you definitely had that with Guc,
22:08 who had seen it all.
22:09 He'd played in the Premier League for Sunderland,
22:12 Championship League One.
22:14 So I think keeping him around for a little bit longer
22:16 would have helped.
22:17 Would he have stayed?
22:18 Would Sunderland have offered him a long-term deal?
22:20 Probably not.
22:21 So there's all that to consider as well.
22:23 But it's just a shame for me
22:25 that we actually had a couple of these players
22:27 that we actually require now and they've gone.
22:30 So anybody you bring in has to hit the ground running.
22:33 They don't really have the opportunity
22:34 of having six months to get reacquainted
22:36 and learn about playing for Sunderland.
22:39 So yeah, tough.
22:43 - Yeah, I think it's just about losing players
22:45 like Guc and Barth.
22:46 They obviously weren't gonna be regular first-team players
22:50 and Sunderland have kind of had the policy
22:51 in the last few years,
22:52 if you're not gonna be a first team,
22:54 we are gonna let you go and pursue other opportunities.
22:56 But it's about replacing them.
22:57 - It is interesting that though,
22:58 because if you have Danny Bart in the squad,
23:01 does that mean that when required,
23:03 when you play in a big team,
23:04 that you can have Barth in there?
23:05 You can shift Luke O'Night to full-back.
23:07 Maybe some Sunderland fans would like him in field.
23:10 Guc gives you a similar option.
23:11 He could play right centre-back with the injuries
23:13 to Huggins and Surgan.
23:14 - Well, Guc would have played on Friday, wouldn't he?
23:16 - Absolutely, absolutely.
23:17 It would have afforded that
23:19 a little bit more tactical flexibility.
23:21 It might mean that Jenson Sealt
23:23 could have played at centre-back at some point
23:24 in his Sunderland career as well,
23:26 'cause now he's playing right back out of position.
23:28 So there's all that to consider as well.
23:31 And as I said, these aren't majorly horrendous decisions
23:33 and I can actually see the logic behind them.
23:35 Obviously, Danny Barth was getting on a bit.
23:37 Lyndon Guc had been at the club for a long time.
23:40 Did they want to commit to a long-term deal?
23:42 I do understand all these arguments,
23:43 but on the flip side, you do have to be careful
23:47 what you wish for.
23:48 And I think that's actually true with Tony Mowbray as well.
23:50 Sometimes you don't actually realise
23:51 and understand what you've got until it's gone.
23:53 - We are recording this on Facebook Live
23:57 and just getting a few comments as well.
23:59 One thing we haven't touched on yet,
24:00 Alex Pritchard's contract and transfer rumours.
24:03 There's been a few links in kind of the last few days
24:06 and weeks, reports of Birmingham are interested.
24:09 There's also reportedly interest from abroad.
24:12 And as we've said before,
24:13 Sunderland were very prepared to let Pritchard go last summer.
24:17 Tony Mowbray said that in press conferences
24:18 and he was expected to leave the club.
24:22 Didn't start many games at the start of this season,
24:25 but he has come in in recent weeks
24:26 and he's been a key player for Sunderland.
24:29 What do you see now with him?
24:31 Because if Sunderland were to let him go,
24:33 they would need to replace him.
24:34 He's another experienced player.
24:35 He's 30, probably the oldest player,
24:38 playing regularly now in the squad.
24:40 And I think if Pritchard was to go as well,
24:42 that's another vocal member of the dressing room
24:44 going out of the squad.
24:46 So if he did leave in January,
24:48 I think the club would need to replace him.
24:51 Doesn't sound like there's any indication
24:52 of him getting off with a new contract before next summer,
24:55 before this summer coming up even,
24:57 when he would be free to leave the club.
24:59 So what do you kind of make of his situation
25:01 as things stand at the minute?
25:03 - Yeah, I think you have to be careful
25:04 what you wish for, again,
25:06 when it comes to players like Pritchard,
25:07 a great servant for Sunderland,
25:08 joined us in league one, helped us get promoted.
25:12 You know, he's one of the only players in the squad,
25:14 I think possibly maybe the only player in the squad
25:16 with a bit of Premier League experience as well,
25:18 comes with great pedigree,
25:20 obviously was bought for a lot of money.
25:22 Yes, during his time at Sunderland,
25:24 he has been in and out of the squad,
25:26 or in and out of the first team.
25:28 At times, he's been a little inconsistent,
25:32 but I think generally, I think Sunderland fans would agree
25:35 that he's, for the most part,
25:37 contributed quite well in terms of goals and assists,
25:39 always tries to do something.
25:41 I think he set standards.
25:44 I remember actually there was a game when we were in league one,
25:49 I think we drew with Wickham, was it 3-3?
25:51 - Yeah, at Wickham.
25:55 - Pritchard was fuming, absolutely fuming,
25:57 that Sunderland had thrown that game away.
25:58 It was under Johnson, or was it under Neal?
26:00 I can't remember which one it was.
26:01 - That was under Johnson, yeah.
26:02 - Yeah, a Johnson game.
26:04 And he was absolutely fuming that day and really upset,
26:08 and he does drive standards, experienced professional,
26:10 very good person to have around the dressing room,
26:13 and he contributes on the field.
26:15 But this is the situations of Sunderland's design, really.
26:20 I can't see him signing a new deal.
26:21 Apparently, contract talks haven't even opened yet.
26:24 So I think they're just going to have to take the medicine
26:25 with this one and accept that they're going to come in
26:27 for a little bit of flack.
26:28 Obviously, Pritchard's going to be playing
26:31 for his next club now, isn't he, really?
26:33 He's going to be putting himself in the shop window.
26:35 There's going to be interest.
26:37 I think what's really interesting in the minds of fans
26:39 as well is that Tony Mowbray wasn't playing Pritchard,
26:43 and now suddenly Tony Mowbray's gone to Birmingham,
26:47 and now he wants Alex Pritchard at Birmingham.
26:49 So that, I think, tells you sort of where Tony Mowbray
26:52 was at with Alex Pritchard,
26:53 and he made some interesting comments about team selection
26:56 and not feeling that he could play Alex Pritchard
27:01 as much as he would like to.
27:02 So there's all of that in the minds of fans as well.
27:05 Personally, I think he should have been offered a new deal
27:08 in the summer, and I think he's probably going to leave
27:11 on a free transfer in next summer.
27:14 I can't see him leaving in January.
27:17 I think it would be foolish to leave him in January.
27:19 As you say, Joe, unless Sunderland got a good replacement.
27:22 But then again, you do have to bed in that new rep.
27:26 You've got to have an experienced player who knows the club,
27:29 who's up to speed, leaving,
27:31 and then potentially somebody who isn't ready to start games,
27:34 depending on who it is, come in.
27:36 And that could cause problems as well.
27:37 So, yeah, it's a, yeah, the January transfer window,
27:42 it's fraught with complications.
27:45 - I think there's just too many areas that need addressing
27:47 to let someone like Alex Pritchard go.
27:49 And similar with Jack Clarke,
27:50 obviously there's Premier League interest in him,
27:54 but as we've mentioned before,
27:55 Sunderland probably need a left back.
27:57 They're probably in a centre midfielder,
27:58 probably need a striker.
28:00 If you take Alex Pritchard out
28:01 or one of the attacking players,
28:02 then you need another creative player or another winger.
28:05 And it just seems, yeah, I think it would be,
28:08 wouldn't make sense to sell someone like Alex Pritchard
28:11 in January without a replacement lined up.
28:13 And just a few comments that you've put on the screen there.
28:17 One comment saying Chris Rigg should be given a chance
28:20 in the last 10 minutes, as we've mentioned before.
28:21 Sunderland do lack options in centre midfield as well.
28:24 And there's been a lot of kind of responsibility
28:26 on Dan Neil and Pierre Equa this season.
28:29 Another comment saying,
28:30 should Dewis and Bennett get a chance to play?
28:32 We've hardly seen this season in the first team
28:36 and now Patrick Roberts out injured
28:38 and Barr seems to be the preference there
28:40 or Pritchard playing out on the right.
28:42 Do you think some of these younger players
28:44 should have been given a chance?
28:45 Of course, we don't see them day in, day out in training,
28:47 but Chris Rigg, remember he's only still 16.
28:51 So he's an incredibly young,
28:52 but he has kind of held his own
28:53 when he has been given little cameos in the first team.
28:57 Michael Beale has spoken a few times
28:59 about maybe letting some of the younger players leave.
29:02 Arlone's mentioned, Hamir and Bennett as well
29:04 was mentioned when Mike Dodds was in charge.
29:06 So are there any of these fringe players,
29:08 younger players that you think deserve
29:10 to have been given more of a chance?
29:13 I think with Chris Rigg, we'll just tackle that first.
29:15 I think that's a really interesting case
29:17 because he is so highly rated
29:19 and Sunderland fought so hard to keep him.
29:21 And it was seen as such a good thing
29:23 that Sunderland had kept Chris Rigg,
29:24 and rightly so.
29:26 Youngest ever outfield player for Sunderland
29:28 as a 15-year-old, played against Premier League Fulham,
29:31 didn't look out of place last season.
29:33 You know, this season,
29:35 maybe fans are expecting Chris Rigg to kick on a little bit.
29:39 It is worth noting he's only 16
29:41 and he scored against Cru Alexander,
29:43 Sunderland's youngest ever goalscorer,
29:45 scored against Southampton.
29:46 I think he's played eight or 10 times this season.
29:50 It can be very different, I can't,
29:52 starting a game compared to coming off the bench.
29:53 Yeah, this is it.
29:55 And I think because we've been told so much about Chris Rigg
29:59 and we've seen glimpses of how good he can be,
30:01 there is a little bit of a clamour for him.
30:03 And understandably so,
30:04 when Sunderland's team isn't sort of functioning well,
30:07 you want that little bit of stardust,
30:08 that little bit of fearlessness
30:10 that he would undoubtedly bring.
30:12 But it is worth noting that he is 16.
30:15 You don't want to throw him to the wolves.
30:18 He's had that first-team experience.
30:19 He's dropped out a little bit.
30:20 He's playing for the under-18s in the Youth Cup.
30:23 He's playing for the under-21s as well.
30:25 By all accounts, he's completely tenacious in training
30:29 when he's with the 18s and 21s,
30:31 and in those games with the 18s and 21s,
30:34 still training with Sunderland's first team as well.
30:37 So, second half of the season,
30:39 when the stakes are a little bit less, perhaps,
30:40 with Sunderland, I don't know,
30:42 you would hope that he'd get played a little bit more.
30:45 He's probably, you know,
30:47 let's not forget either that he stayed at Sunderland,
30:50 probably, to play games for the first team as well.
30:53 That's the allure that he's going to get looked after.
30:55 So, at some point, he is going to have to play more games.
30:57 Otherwise, I think the player will get frustrated.
30:59 But you do have to be careful.
31:00 You don't want to throw him in.
31:01 You don't want to hang him out to dry.
31:03 You don't want to bring him into an environment
31:05 where the team's really struggling
31:06 and then his confidence is crushed.
31:07 As you say, it's very different coming on
31:09 for the last 10, 15 minutes,
31:10 the starting games in the Championship.
31:13 In regards to some of the other players,
31:15 you know, Jefferson Bennett doesn't seem to have had much luck for Sunderland.
31:19 He got that assist for Chris Riggs' goal against Southampton
31:23 when he came on, looked very good,
31:24 but then he struggled with injury, his illness.
31:26 He's in the 21s, he's out the 21s.
31:29 He was in the squad a couple of weeks ago.
31:31 Now he's dropped out the squad again, back in, back out.
31:34 I think he's probably massively frustrated.
31:36 It's a tough environment to come into as a youngster
31:39 who doesn't speak the language.
31:41 Does he need a loan?
31:42 He probably needs to play regularly.
31:45 The noises coming out of his camp suggest he would prefer a loan.
31:48 It's very hard for him to get in over Jack Clark anyway.
31:50 We have to note that because Jack Clark's so good that he plays 90 minutes
31:55 unless Sunderland are three or four and up,
31:56 which is unlikely at the moment.
31:58 But then if Jack Clark gets injured, then who comes in for him, God forbid.
32:02 So these are all little transfer decisions that Sunderland are facing.
32:07 Hemia, I thought, actually looked quite good
32:10 when he came on against Hull in his brief cameo.
32:12 He looks like he's dropped a few pounds.
32:14 He looked a bit more mobile.
32:17 He did put himself about a little bit as well.
32:19 So that's an interesting one.
32:20 What's going to happen with him and Maienda?
32:24 You know, there's little things...
32:25 But Bale said Maienda's probably going to stick around, isn't he?
32:28 Well, yeah.
32:29 But Hemia's open to a loan.
32:31 I was just about to mention that in a sense that I think Sunderland fans
32:33 are struggling with those comments because Maienda scored two for the under-21s.
32:37 Doesn't make the matchday squad.
32:39 Whereas Hemia is probably going to go out on loan
32:41 and then makes the matchday squad and gets on.
32:43 So there's all that sort of stuff in the background as well.
32:47 You know, other players, could we see somebody like Ellis Taylor going out on loan?
32:50 Potentially, I know Harry Gardner's already gone.
32:52 Maybe Michael Spellman or something to the National League.
32:55 But it will be interesting in terms of outgoings, I think, for Sunderland
32:58 this winter window.
33:01 Well, Bale did say that they probably wouldn't sanction any loan deals
33:04 unless someone is brought in.
33:06 For example, Hemia's not going to go out on loan
33:07 if Sunderland aren't able to bring a striker in.
33:10 So a very busy kind of few weeks coming up.
33:14 And next up for Sunderland, it's another home game against Stoke.
33:18 Then they go away to Middlesbrough the following weekend.
33:21 But it goes without saying, huge game this weekend, isn't it?
33:24 Out home, back at the stadium alight.
33:25 And if Sunderland don't get a result again,
33:28 you fear that there's going to be a similar reaction to after the whole game.
33:32 No, there absolutely will be.
33:34 I think this is a crucial couple of games coming up for Michael Bale,
33:37 as we mentioned at the top end of the podcast.
33:39 You know, Stoke City at home, given their fortunes over recent seasons,
33:43 I know it's improved since Steven Schumacher's come in.
33:47 But if he loses against Stoke and Middlesbrough,
33:51 or has anything other than convincing wins, really,
33:54 it's going to be very difficult,
33:55 because I think Sunderland fans need to see improvement
33:58 in terms of the structure, in terms of the intensity,
34:00 in terms of the game plan and results as well.
34:03 That's the position he finds himself in.
34:05 Sunderland need results, and Sunderland fans also need to be shown
34:08 that there's something there that they can get behind.
34:11 And I think just in terms of the next two games as well,
34:14 Stoke City, Middlesbrough, Steven Schumacher, Michael Carrick,
34:18 both highly rated coaches, and if they get one over on Michael Bale,
34:24 who's been perceived as this young up-and-comer,
34:27 it's going to be very, very difficult for him again.
34:29 So, yeah, all eyes on the next two games, really.
34:33 We'll have more build-up to that game against Stoke
34:36 at the Stadium of Light on Saturday.
34:39 And if you like what we do here at The Raw Podcast,
34:41 please consider subscribing wherever you listen to your podcasts,
34:44 on YouTube, on Spotify, and giving us a review.
34:48 We are also on Shots TV on Freeview channel 276,
34:53 so check us out on there.
34:54 As I say, we'll have build-ups to that Stoke game
34:56 and all the latest transfer news over on the SAFC section
35:00 of the Sunderland Echo website.