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00:00 The Horizon post office scandal is a horrendous miscarriage of justice that ruined hundreds of lives.
00:08 Politicians of all parties will rightly reflect on what they should have done sooner.
00:13 The UK Government has now acted to overturn the wrongful convictions of innocent victims.
00:19 In Scotland, however, prosecutions were handled by the Crown Office, not the post office.
00:25 Has the First Minister established whether a consent motion to UK law is the fastest way to clear all victims in Scotland?
00:34 Will he confirm to Parliament how he will work with the UK Government to overturn these convictions as quickly as possible?
00:41 First Minister, I pay tribute to Alan Bates and all the other hundreds of campaigners.
00:48 [Applause]
00:55 I pay tribute to all the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses who campaigned tirelessly over decades
01:00 to ensure that they receive justice—justice that they are still waiting for.
01:05 Of course, it should not have taken a TV drama for action to have to be taken.
01:11 Douglas Ross is right. There is a need for reflection for all those involved.
01:16 The post office is a wholly reserved institution that is accountable to UK Government ministers.
01:24 The difference, as Douglas Ross rightly points out, is that prosecutions in Scotland have
01:28 been taken forward by the independent Crown and Procurator Fiscal Service.
01:32 I spoke to the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General this morning.
01:37 He is willing to provide a briefing to any MSPs who have an interest in the Crown zone handling of these issues.
01:48 To answer Douglas Ross's question directly, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has written to her counterpart in the UK Government
01:55 to say that we are willing to work with the UK Government in relation to legislation that it is bringing forward to overturn wrongful convictions.
02:03 The quickest and fastest way to do that would probably be through the LCM process,
02:08 but there are a number of complexities to navigate and to work through,
02:12 for some of the reasons that Douglas Ross has already highlighted.
02:16 We will, of course, engage immediately and urgently, as we have already done with the UK Government.
02:21 However, it is absolutely certain that, whether someone is in Scotland or any other part of the
02:25 United Kingdom and has been impacted by this, some postmasters have waited far too long for justice.
02:31 They should not have to wait a moment longer.
02:33 I join the First Minister in congratulating Alan Bates and others, as I did in the
02:42 House of Commons earlier this week. Victims and the public will rightly ask why it has taken so long
02:49 for this deep injustice to be corrected. Multiple political parties and many individuals
02:55 should have and could have acted sooner. Blame starts with the Post Office,
02:59 but people are understandably looking at what others could have done.
03:03 Scotland's Crown Office was made aware of concerns with the horizon system in 2013,
03:09 more than 10 years ago. Dr Andrew Tickell, a senior law lecturer at Glasgow Caledonian
03:15 University, said this week that "the revelation that the Crown Office knew of problems is huge."
03:22 He continued, "Did they stop prosecuting? Did it occur to them that any of their cases before 2013
03:29 might now be unsafe because of these uncertainties?"
03:32 He added that Scotland was "just at the beginning of addressing the miscarriage of justice"
03:38 while England and Wales were "much, much further down the line."
03:42 I am simply asking the First Minister whether he agrees that the process in Scotland
03:52 needs to be accelerated.
03:56 To Douglas Ross, let us first and foremost remember that a public inquiry is under way.
04:02 It has been well established that the inaccurate evidence presented by the Post Office is at the
04:11 very heart of the scandal. The Post Office is accountable to the UK Government Minister
04:19 and ministers over many successive UK Governments. That will undoubtedly be a matter of interrogation
04:25 and questioning by the public inquiry.
04:27 I reiterate the point that the Lord Advocate is willing to meet members of the Scottish Parliament
04:33 to talk them through what the Crown has done, because those are independent functions
04:38 of the Crown and Procurator Fiscal Service. My understanding is that, when the Crown Office
04:44 was told in 2013 by Post Office solicitors about the challenges around horizon evidence,
04:54 it continued that dialogue with the Post Office. However, immediately in September 2013,
05:01 it provided guidance to every Scottish prosecutor at the earliest possible point in time to treat
05:09 cases reported by the Post Office on their individual regard to their facts and circumstances
05:15 and evidence that did not rely on horizon evidence. It then spent the next couple of
05:19 years—between 2013 and 2015—in continual dialogue with the Post Office to try to get
05:24 further detail on the evidential basis.
05:26 Just to conclude, the position that the Crown Prosecution Service provided in 2015
05:39 issued instructions to all prosecutors not to proceed with any Post Office case
05:44 in which a sufficiency of evidence was dependent on evidence from the horizon system. There was
05:49 no case that was prosecuted effectively from 2015 in which the evidence was dependent on
05:55 evidence from the horizon system.
05:57 I will be brief, first Minister.
05:57 In relation to the process with the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, I am willing
06:05 to work with the UK Government to look at a process that, on mass, seeks to overturn
06:12 any wrongful convictions.
06:15 The actions of the Post Office were despicable and probably criminal, but the actions of
06:21 the Crown Office in Scotland should trouble us greatly. There was a sudden spike in cases
06:28 involving people who were some of the most trusted in their communities, but the Crown
06:33 Office proceeded anyway. That was until 2013, when it suddenly decided not to proceed with
06:38 a case in the Gorballs. The First Minister has just articulated that it was in September
06:44 2013 when the Crown Office first found out and sent out that information, but it was not.
06:49 We know that on 29 January 2013, a prosecutor fiscal cited "issues with horizon" as the
06:58 reason for not proceeding with a case in January 2013, not in September 2013.
07:04 Stewart Munro, convener of the Law Society of Scotland's Criminal Law Committee, said
07:08 that the procurator fiscal should have gone public. He said, and this is his quote,
07:12 "The Procurator Fiscal has a legal duty to disclose relevant information
07:17 of those accused of crimes, and that duty continues even after a trial is concluded."
07:23 As soon as the procurator fiscal became aware of concerns about the reliability of horizon,
07:28 that should have been disclosed. Does the First Minister agree that Scotland's Crown
07:33 Office has serious questions to answer here?
07:37 What I say to Douglas Ross—I say this genuinely and in sincerity—is that the real questions are
07:45 for the Post Office and the information that the Post Office provided not just to
07:50 the Crown Office but to Government ministers. That is why a public inquiry is so important,
07:56 and anybody who has questions to answer should co-operate with that public inquiry.
08:00 However, let us not forget that the Post Office is a wholly reserved institution
08:04 directly accountable to UK Government ministers.
08:07 There are legitimate questions to ask of the Crown. The Crown operates independently of
08:16 Government ministers, as it should operate independently of me as the First Minister.
08:23 I repeat what the law advocate told me this morning. She is more than happy to provide
08:33 a briefing to members of the Parliament who have an interest. I reiterate the points that I made
08:40 at the very beginning, which is that some postmasters and sub-postministers have waited
08:45 far too long for justice. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that we get not just access to
08:49 that justice but access to compensation. The UK-wide inquiry, which the First Minister
08:56 has mentioned, will look at all those issues. It is right that it continues to scrutinise
09:00 what happened, but we must examine the unique circumstances in Scotland in which the Crown
09:07 Office was responsible for the prosecution of innocent people. If the Crown Office knew of
09:12 specific problems more than a decade ago, that raises serious questions. We do not know what
09:18 it did, if anything, with that information. The Horizon post office scandal has devastated lives.
09:25 It is the most appalling miscarriage of justice. Good people were criminalised because of an IT
09:32 failure that they had nothing to do with and a cover-up that lasted for years. It is right that
09:38 no stone is left unturned in seeking answers. The Crown Office in Scotland must be transparent.
09:45 Prosecutors were aware of issues with the flawed Horizon system more than 10 years ago.
09:51 We do not need meetings or briefings from the Lord Advocate; we need her here in Parliament
09:57 to answer questions about the scandal. Does the First Minister agree that the Lord Advocate
10:03 should urgently come to this Parliament to answer questions?
10:06 Again, I remind Douglas Ross—this is a really important point—that when the Lord Advocate
10:13 discharges her functions as head of the prosecution service, she does so independently
10:20 of me. When I spoke to the Lord Advocate this morning, she was more than happy to consider
10:25 whether it was a briefing, a ministerial statement or whatever was appropriate.
10:29 She was willing to consider that, and I am certain that the Lord Advocate
10:33 is listening to these exchanges. Of course, it will be for her to determine, in her independent
10:38 function as head of the prosecution service, how she should answer any of those questions.
10:45 Let me reiterate the point that Scottish prosecutors were told in September 2013
10:51 to treat cases reported by the Post Office in regard to their facts and circumstances
10:57 and evidence that did not rely on Horizon, so that they should be reported under individual regard.
11:05 Then, of course, no cases were prosecuted from 2015, when the sufficiency of evidence was
11:11 dependent on the evidence from the Horizon system. My understanding, again from the conversations
11:17 that I have had with the Lord Advocate, is that the engagement with the Post Office between 2013
11:21 and 2015, the Crown Office was assured by the Post Office and its legal representatives that
11:27 issues that arise with the Horizon system in England did not impact on any live Scottish
11:32 cases. The Crown Office continued to seek those assurances and then took the action that it did
11:36 in 2013 and 2015. I simply end where I started. Time and time again, sub-postmasters and sub-post
11:46 ministresses were telling the UK Government and ministers that the body that they are wholly
11:53 responsible for—the Post Office—was lying. They were simply not telling the truth about the Horizon
11:59 system. Time and time again, they were not listened to. They have waited far too long for justice
12:04 and far too long for compensation. This Government will work with the UK Government to ensure that
12:09 it gets access to not just justice but the compensation that it so rightly deserves.