'Hamas puts Palestinian public last, they put their aims of trying to eliminate Israel first'
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00:00 Welcome back. As the Israeli military pushes ahead with its offensive in Gaza, the US Secretary
00:09 of State Antony Blinken is in Tel Aviv where he's been holding talks with the Prime Minister
00:13 Benjamin Netanyahu. Well, this is Blinken's fourth visit to the Middle East since the
00:17 war between Hamas and Israel erupted in October. And this visit comes in the context of growing
00:22 concern that the war could spread. It also comes in the context of growing international
00:28 alarm at the humanitarian situation in Gaza. Well, Blinken has been calling on his Israeli
00:33 hosts for a lasting, sustainable peace.
00:40 In today's meetings I was also crystal clear. Palestinian civilians must be able to return
00:46 home as soon as conditions allow. They must not be pressed to leave Gaza. As I told the
00:52 Prime Minister, the United States unequivocally rejects any proposals advocating for the resettlement
00:58 of Palestinians outside of Gaza. And the Prime Minister reaffirmed to me today that this
01:02 is not the policy of Israel's government.
01:06 US Secretary of State Antony Blinken speaking there in Israel. Well, across the border in
01:10 a village in southern Lebanon, three people were killed earlier on today when an Israeli
01:14 drone hit a car. It's been reported that the three people killed were members of Hezbollah.
01:19 Well, this latest strike on Lebanese territory comes just after last week's killing of Hamas
01:25 deputy leader Saleh al-Aruri. He was killed in the Beirut suburbs. And then yesterday,
01:30 Israeli forces killed a top Hezbollah commander by the name of Wissam Tawil in another strike
01:36 in the south of the country. Well, Hezbollah drones were fired from across the border in
01:42 Lebanon today. They hit an Israeli military base. That is the first time the Iran-backed
01:47 group has managed to hit that facility in Safed, which is about 15 kilometres from the
01:52 Lebanese border. Well, this is seen as being a response to those recent Israeli assassinations
01:57 in Lebanon. There are no reports, though, of any serious damage or casualties there
02:01 at Safed.
02:03 We can speak now to Dennis Ross, who is a former special assistant to President Barack
02:07 Obama and a distinguished fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Thank you
02:12 very much indeed for speaking to us. Antony Blinken's arrival there in Israel comes at
02:20 a time of the highest death toll so far this year in Gaza and also the highest, if not
02:25 one of the highest so far in the conflict, in the ranks of the Israeli army. And I'm
02:29 just wondering how in that context he hopes to produce any results whatsoever.
02:35 Well, I think his preoccupation is probably twofold. One is to get more of a sense of
02:42 what the direction is on the Israeli side for the war, the conduct of the war, the pathway
02:47 forward, a sense of what are the signs of progress on that pathway. The discussion of
02:57 a day after strategy at this point is, I think, a little bit abstract, and it's not quite
03:02 realistic, partly because we're not going to have a simple day after strategy where
03:07 Israel suddenly declares, "OK, it's all over, we've won." This is a process on the Israeli
03:13 side because they're having to destroy 300 miles of tunnels, some built 30, 40, and 50
03:19 meters underground. You have a colossal city that was built underground. All of that material,
03:25 cement, steel, electrical wiring, could have been of enormous use for an impoverished area
03:31 like Gaza, but that wasn't Hamas's priority, and the Israelis are dealing with the effect
03:36 of that, and that will take time. Partly, I think he's dealing with how do you begin
03:43 to show that you are pacifying parts of Gaza, and what comes as you do. The other, I think,
03:50 focus or priority is trying to prevent an all-out war between Israel and Hezbollah.
03:57 And we're seeing a war that continues to be confined geographically, which is a way each
04:04 side signals that it's not looking for an all-out war. The problem, however, is that
04:10 the geographic scope is slowly expanding, and the kinds of targets both sides are hitting
04:16 are also becoming, I think, more important each side. So there is a risk that this is
04:24 a conflict that, though it's within bounds right now, might not stay within bounds. And
04:28 I think, here again, the Secretary is focused on how does he help to make sure we don't
04:33 see an all-out war there. If you compare the two, it'll look, what happens between Israel
04:39 and Hezbollah will be something that's far more intense. Casualties on both sides will
04:44 be dramatically higher, and life in Lebanon will grind to a complete halt. In Israel,
04:50 it may not be the same, but it will also be far different from what's going on right now.
04:55 Yeah, it's almost as if each visit that Antony Blinken has been on to the region has been
05:01 more complicated than the last for the very reasons you gave. Just when it comes back
05:07 to the sort of pressure that Antony Blinken and the US President Joe Biden are under right
05:13 now from all directions. I mean, we saw President Biden being heckled yesterday by pro-Palestinian
05:20 supporters. Antony Blinken's been doing a tour of the region where those regional allies
05:25 of the United States, Arab nations like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, putting a lot of pressure
05:31 on him to bring a swift conclusion to all of this. I mean, do you get the impression
05:36 that the US really is feeling the pressure to bring this to a swift conclusion, notably
05:43 in the face of that humanitarian crisis? Well, I think for sure that there is pressure that
05:50 is growing both domestically and especially in the Democratic Party's base. The pressure
05:56 is not across the board, but certainly within the base, there is little doubt that there
06:03 is a lot of pressure, number one. Internationally, and especially in the region, there is pressure.
06:09 I think what the secretary and the administration are trying to do is emphasize their concern
06:16 about reducing the casualties, doing much more in the humanitarian area. You have a
06:25 problem because those who are calling for a swift end to the war, if the war ends today,
06:31 Hamas will be able to reconstitute itself. If the war ends today, Hamas will go back
06:36 to trying to rebuild everything that's lost. It may take a lot of time because Israel has
06:41 certainly weakened it, but their determination to rebuild is unmistakable. Their determination
06:48 to focus on not rebuilding Gaza, but to rebuild a military wherewithal to attack Israel again
06:55 is also not just proven by their words, but by their track record. In 2014, you had a
06:59 conflict that went on for 52 days, and they were determined to get back to where they
07:04 were, and we see that they got back to where they were and beyond it. So the calling for
07:09 an immediate end to the war that still leaves Hamas in power, able to rebuild, that allows
07:15 it to rearm, that's simply a prescription to see this all over again. Maybe it'll take
07:19 several years, but you'll see it again. I think that's not where the administration
07:23 is coming from, but it is trying to change the reality so that the needs of Gazans can
07:31 be addressed, so the suffering there can be dramatically reduced. And that gives, I think,
07:36 more time and space to either root out Hamas or create a circumstance where the Hamas leadership
07:44 chooses to leave. I would love for the Hamas leadership to put the people of Gaza first,
07:49 but it doesn't. If they did put the people of Gaza first, they could offer to leave,
07:55 and I think the Israelis would accept that, and you would bring an end to this war. But
07:59 that doesn't seem to be who Hamas is. They put the Palestinian public last. They put
08:05 their aims of trying to eliminate Israel first.
08:08 Okay, well, thank you so much. I'm afraid we're going to have to leave there. We're
08:12 out of time, but Ambassador Dennis Ross, thank you very much indeed for taking the time to
08:16 speak to us here on France 24.
08:18 [BLANK_AUDIO]