Discipline in Australia schools worst in the OECD
Student discipline in Australian schools is the worst in the OECD and a senate inquiry has been investigating the issue. The senators' interim report recommends the introduction of a "behaviour curriculum" and more support for teachers to deal with disruptive students.
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00:00 Look at the spectrum, obviously.
00:03 Some schools do this really, really well.
00:04 Some schools really, really struggle.
00:07 We are among the lowest in the OECD though.
00:10 When students will ask themselves during an international test and survey of students
00:17 who are about age 15, how they feel about their own classrooms, they're the ones saying
00:21 that they're struggling to learn because they can be quite disruptive.
00:25 So clearly Australia and the United States and Britain have a problem in this area.
00:32 And this report, if the recommendations are acceptable, got some way of fixing it, I think.
00:38 And what are some of the individual examples of this that you've come across in your reporting
00:42 over the years?
00:43 Oh, look, you know, I've spoken to teachers who are completely overwhelmed with the amount
00:50 of disruption in the classroom.
00:53 I read a piece recently on sexual harassment in schools, in high schools, you know, really
00:58 shocking things like, you know, games in which kids' hands are pulled down, girls who are
01:04 sexually touched in a way that would be a criminal offence if it happened at a pub.
01:10 And these girls are forced to go to school, so the school's compulsory.
01:14 Everything from that to teachers who are just so overwhelmed with behavioural issues in
01:19 schools like kids watching cage fights and their phones at the back of class, kids talking
01:23 back, kids ignoring instructions.
01:26 So you know, you can imagine in that kind of environment, it's not only really hard
01:30 to learn for the other students, it's really hard to teach.
01:33 If you're stopping every few minutes, you know, if you're trying to impart some information
01:39 to your students and you're stopping every few minutes to correct some behaviour or to
01:43 address something, then no one's getting very far.
01:47 Yeah, this has provoked a bit of discussion amongst our team here today, and it was apparent
01:52 that this has been an issue through the decades as well.
01:56 Like two people were mentioning they can remember teachers leaving their classrooms crying because
02:02 they couldn't deal with the situation.
02:04 Is there evidence that it has actually been getting worse?
02:07 Look, I don't know.
02:10 One of the problems with behaviour in classrooms, it's really difficult to measure.
02:16 So one of the things that were actually recommended in the report were annual surveys of students
02:21 to find out, you know, what are the trends in this?
02:24 This was not something that was measured when I was at school, probably when you were at
02:27 school, Joe.
02:29 So it's really difficult to be able to answer that question.
02:32 But one of the things that has changed, I think, since, say, the 80s or the 90s, is
02:38 the fact that now there is a very, very wide social spectrum.
02:43 We're not all tied to the church or to local communities the way we used to be.
02:48 And one of the things that teachers say is that every household has really different
02:54 expectations of how their children should behave.
02:58 So teachers tell us, maybe calling a parent saying that their kid punched another kid
03:04 for looking at them the wrong way, and the parent will go, "Well, I taught them to do
03:07 that because I think that's the way they should react."
03:10 Or, you know, some families think it's completely fine to run around and pull each other's pants
03:14 down and joke.
03:15 And when their kids do it at school, they don't see why they're getting into trouble.
03:19 So one of the things in the report talks about a behaviour curriculum.
03:24 And what that is really is about being very explicit in what is acceptable at school and
03:31 what isn't.
03:32 And the good schools do this already.
03:35 But I think the report is suggesting that it become more widespread and even actually
03:39 be included in the Australian curriculum.
03:42 Although I think there would be debate about exactly what that should include.
03:45 That could get a bit hairy.
03:46 Yeah.
03:47 Yeah.
03:48 But you think that's a good idea?
03:49 Look, I think it would be good debate to have.
03:51 And I think the idea of being very explicit, of schools being very explicit in what is
03:59 acceptable and what is not acceptable and having clear consequences that are followed
04:03 through is a really proven and research actually proves that this is the best way to manage
04:11 behaviour in schools.
04:13 And the schools that I've seen doing this are extremely explicit about what's expected.
04:18 For example, you will, when the bell goes, you will line up outside class.
04:22 You will wait until the teacher calls you in.
04:24 You will not open your books until the teacher says it's time to open your books.
04:29 So these schools have very strict structures around behaviour, but it tends to work because
04:34 the kids like it too.
04:36 I don't, you know, there's probably a few kids who enjoy chaos, but I think most of
04:41 the kids find rules, especially neurodiverse kids, find rules quite comforting.
04:46 Yep.
04:47 OK.
04:48 And another recommendation is a requirement for teachers to be supported with the latest
04:51 evidence based teaching skills to manage behaviour.
04:56 Isn't it kind of surprising that that's not already happening?
05:00 Jo, during my years covering education, I was constantly surprised that things that
05:05 seem really obvious aren't happening.
05:09 And yes, absolutely.
05:11 But one of the things that's happened over the years is that this idea, so discipline
05:15 is now known as classroom management.
05:17 And the idea is, you know, how do you manage a classroom?
05:19 How do you control a classroom?
05:21 This fell out of the teacher training curriculum in favour of a lot of theoretical stuff.
05:26 So what you have even now is teachers graduating from five years at university not having been
05:34 taught these skills.
05:36 And the teachers talk about sort of really specific practical skills, like even just
05:40 like the teacher look, you know, practice your look or, you know, work out that there
05:46 are techniques of using your physicality in the classroom where you walk, where you talk,
05:51 where you stand are all things that can kind of assert authority.
05:57 And a lot of teachers are graduating without these skills.
06:00 So there's a lot of catch up required, I think, to ensure that our existing teacher workforce
06:06 and our graduating teachers have these really practical basic skills.
06:12 And what do you make of some of the other recommendations like a school building should
06:14 be built for traditional style classrooms rather than open plan classrooms?
06:19 And you mentioned that annual survey.
06:21 So I think the classroom structure, I think there was a big fad towards that in the last
06:26 10 years of having these sort of gigantic cavernous halls with high ceilings and, you
06:31 know, big enough for three primary and middle classes, 90 kids.
06:34 I can see why people thought that might be a good idea.
06:37 It wasn't because kids just felt lost.
06:40 They were noisy.
06:41 They were slightly chaotic.
06:42 Kids getting on beanbags.
06:44 It just wasn't really working.
06:46 One of the really interesting recommendations, I think, that's quite overdue is encouraging
06:50 education systems to work more closely with health systems, because what you have at the
06:54 moment is particularly in disadvantaged areas of our capital cities and in our rural areas,
06:59 you have a lot of kids with undiagnosed needs, particularly kids with neurodiverse needs.
07:06 But, you know, even in the most advantaged parts of Sydney, you can wait a year to get
07:11 into a developmental paediatrician to have your child assessed for autism or ADHD.
07:17 Some schools spend their own money on hiring speech pathologists and occupational therapists
07:23 to work with some of these kids.
07:26 Education funds should be spent on education.
07:28 We have a health system.
07:30 And so there has been calls for a long time.
07:31 And this really solidifies that those two need to be working much more closely together,
07:36 because when you have a lot of undiagnosed needs, these teachers are not getting extra
07:40 funding, they're not getting extra support.
07:42 They're just having to deal with kids who have huge and special needs.
07:47 And these diagnoses are growing quite rapidly.
07:50 So teachers need a lot of support here.
07:52 And Jordan, you've already touched on this, but are parents sometimes the root cause of
07:57 issues?
07:58 And how do you actually address that?
08:01 Look, this is a really tricky one.
08:04 And I think this is another thing, just anecdotally, that's changed a lot since we were at school.
08:09 Back in the old days, if a teacher got you in trouble, your parents would generally say,
08:14 well, you know, the teacher, I trust the teacher, I trust that they've made the right call on
08:19 this.
08:20 Now you often get parents, especially in advantaged parts of the capital cities, beating a pass
08:25 to the door explaining why a little child shouldn't be getting in trouble and doesn't
08:29 deserve a detention.
08:30 And occasionally I've heard of parents offering to take the detention for them.
08:34 And so I think the old culture of backing up a teacher's authority has really eroded.
08:41 It's interesting that some teachers say that it's worse in advantaged parts of the city
08:46 and in disadvantaged parts of the city.
08:49 Parents are actually like, I'm quite happy to trust you on this.
08:52 So I think the diversity of parental reactions and the willingness to be defensive about
08:58 their own kids' behaviour has undermined class discipline a little bit yet.
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