'Indiscriminate' attacks on civilians & medical infrastructure are 'tragic whoever commits them'
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00:00 And we've got some more information now about those hostages
00:03 who are apparently on their way now in Red Cross lorries.
00:07 Among them are three French citizens, two German citizens and two Argentines.
00:13 We're not clear about the nationalities of the other hostages.
00:18 We will bring you more as we have more details.
00:21 Well, many people will remember the huge outcry on October the 17th,
00:25 much earlier in the Israel-Hamas war,
00:28 after an explosion at the Al-Alhi hospital in northern Gaza
00:32 that led to the death of perhaps hundreds of people,
00:35 most thought to be civilians.
00:38 Well, early reports pointed the finger at Israel,
00:40 saying it had targeted the hospital,
00:43 a suggestion that Israel denied.
00:45 And within hours, open source intelligence sources
00:50 suggested that the attack was more likely to have come from Gaza itself.
00:55 Now, that conclusion is now backed by Human Rights Watch,
00:58 which today released a report stating that the explosion
01:02 was most probably caused by a rocket,
01:04 in its words, "commonly used by Palestinian armed groups."
01:09 Well, for more on this, I'm now joined on the line from Washington
01:13 by Eric Goldstein, who is the deputy director
01:17 of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch.
01:21 Thank you so much for your time, Mr. Goldstein.
01:26 Israel has responded to this report by saying that your organisation
01:31 took a long time to reach a conclusion that most people around the world
01:36 had accepted some time ago, after the open source intelligences
01:41 reached the same conclusion.
01:43 What did take so long?
01:47 Well, we're not interested in being first.
01:49 We're interested in being careful.
01:51 We compared our findings with the findings of other groups,
01:55 some of which disagreed with ours.
01:58 And we wanted to make sure we had a degree of confidence in our findings.
02:04 We, of course, don't have access to the site,
02:07 but we had access to many types of information
02:11 that led us to think it very unlikely that this could have been an Israel—
02:16 the type of munitions that Israel is known to use in Gaza.
02:21 And it looked very much like the damage caused by the types of rockets
02:27 that Palestinian armed groups use.
02:31 Now, can you—you weren't able in that report to be more precise.
02:37 You say, as you say, that it is likely to be munitions
02:42 from the types of rockets that are used by groups, Palestinian armed groups,
02:46 but you're not able to be more precise.
02:49 Why is that?
02:51 We think that both Israel, Hamas and Islamic Jihad,
02:56 who Israel has accused of being responsible for launching this rocket,
03:00 which apparently misfired,
03:04 we've called on all of them to provide the evidence that they have
03:08 and to cooperate with an international investigation
03:10 so that we can be more confident of where the evidence is pointing now.
03:17 There was another discrepancy.
03:20 How many people died in this explosion?
03:22 Initially, we were told it was hundreds,
03:26 and now that figure has been really revised downwards.
03:30 Do you have a clearer idea of the number of people killed and injured?
03:36 And what happened there?
03:38 Why was there such a big difference in the initial figures and the later figures?
03:44 Well, we don't have data on the number of people killed.
03:49 It's clear that there were large numbers of Palestinian civilians
03:55 sheltering in the courtyard of this hospital,
04:00 and that's where the munition hit.
04:02 It hit in the courtyard.
04:03 There were cars there with fuel.
04:07 There was a lot of people injured and killed with severe burns
04:12 caused by explosions and perhaps secondary explosions of the fuel.
04:17 But the actual number, we don't have a list of names,
04:22 and we can't say with certainty,
04:24 but it's clear that scores, if not more, of people were tragically killed.
04:31 Now, at least one member of Hamas,
04:34 Bassem Naim, who's a senior official,
04:38 says quite simply, "We don't believe this Human Rights Watch report."
04:44 There is a sense in this war that people are choosing to believe what they wish to believe.
04:50 How does an organization like Human Rights Watch combat that?
04:55 Well, you started off by mentioning that the Israeli authorities
04:58 criticized us for taking too long to reach our findings.
05:02 Hamas has condemned the findings that we reached,
05:06 but we just call it as we see it when we reach the level of confidence.
05:10 It's clear that, tragically, in this conflict,
05:14 there have been over or close to 200 attacks on medical facilities,
05:19 according to the WHO.
05:21 Most of them have been committed by Israel.
05:24 Hundreds of health workers have been injured, killed doing their jobs.
05:29 Hospitals have largely been unable to function.
05:33 The blockade has hindered their ability to get supplies and fuel.
05:38 So attacks on medical infrastructure are tragic, whoever commits them.
05:43 There are also Palestinian rockets being fired toward Israel all the time.
05:50 These are indiscriminate.
05:52 They target civilians, and sometimes it's not Israeli civilians
05:56 who are getting killed and injured by them.
05:59 OK, well, we're out of time, I'm afraid, Mr Goldstein.
06:02 Eric Goldstein there talking to us from Human Rights Watch,
06:06 speaking to us on the line there from Washington.
06:09 Thank you so much to him.