Director Chad Stahelski talks to Awards Track about evolution of approach, collaboration, creating a love letter to their favorite films, finding the right humor and avoiding tropes in regards to his film: “John Wick - Chapter 4”.
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00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 I want you to find your peace.
00:21 But a good death only comes after a good life.
00:29 You and I left a good life behind a long time ago,
00:33 my friend.
00:33 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:37 We've talked many times over the years,
00:46 but I always remember the first time with the first John Wick
00:49 because of the different sort of approaches and the mindsets.
00:54 But now at obviously four and pushing everything,
00:58 especially the stunt element, because the stunts are
01:00 so important now in terms of that.
01:03 Can you talk about sort of your mindset,
01:05 how that's changed over these years,
01:07 and how you see how a film should be done,
01:10 regardless of scale?
01:12 Oh, wow.
01:14 Good question, Tim.
01:15 A lot of layers there, man.
01:19 Like I'll just talk about within the series.
01:21 When people ask about do you go bigger, better, stronger,
01:26 faster, how do you do your sequels,
01:28 what do you do after John Wick 3, blah, blah, blah,
01:30 how do you go?
01:32 We've never really looked at it like that.
01:34 And even from our stunt or second unit careers,
01:37 we don't necessarily equate bigger with better.
01:39 Sometimes that's a really good answer.
01:41 I think being clever, I think being intricate,
01:44 I think being subversive are far more important.
01:46 Meaning show people a car chase, but in a different way.
01:49 Show people a fight scene, but in a different way.
01:51 Show people how to use a weapon, a firearm, a sword,
01:53 something in a different way.
01:55 That's what makes you remember.
01:56 Like if I had to quiz you on what's the coolest
01:59 move from The Matrix, I guarantee you 99 out of 100
02:03 people would say bullet time.
02:06 That's not a move, that's a guy leaning back and dodging
02:08 a digital bullet.
02:09 You know what I mean?
02:10 What they're saying is they remember the moment.
02:12 So to come up with moments now, whether that's--
02:15 I mean, Jackie Chan, the best fight guy of all time
02:18 with Yung Wu-Ping or Jet Li, you remember all these other great
02:23 Kung Fu legends, and you know they're awesome,
02:25 but you can't give me the one moment.
02:26 But Jackie would give me 50 great moments of the--
02:29 and they'll probably all be falls,
02:31 or the time he hung off the bus with the umbrella,
02:32 or there's--
02:33 so you're trying to create these moments.
02:35 And that's always what's important to me.
02:37 After John Wick 3, you remember the horse.
02:40 I put all this work and millions of dollars
02:42 into all the other fight scenes, but what do you remember?
02:44 A knife fight and the horse.
02:45 I kick somebody with a horse.
02:47 And we know that about what we do.
02:49 Like John Wick 1, if I ask people,
02:52 what's your favorite, and they're like, the house fight
02:54 or the club fight, they can't tell me what the moves are.
02:57 They just know the vibe of gunfu, close quarter gun work.
03:00 And we knew that going in, that we
03:02 weren't going to have Keanu jump up and do the splits
03:04 in a triple backflip.
03:05 So we wanted to create an overall subversive vibe
03:08 that you remember.
03:09 You remember John Wick because of the tone, the color,
03:11 the weird vibe to it.
03:13 Like there's no really one word.
03:15 So we carry that through in each one.
03:19 So by the time you get to number 4,
03:20 we kept expanding that vibe, that tone.
03:23 Like again, when people ask, and I'll ask interviewers,
03:27 what did you love about John Wick 4?
03:29 Oh, the top shot, the top shots of me.
03:31 I'm like, what about the top shot?
03:32 I don't, you know, the top shot, the dragon's breath.
03:35 I'm like, all right.
03:36 So it's the Vought, it's the scene.
03:38 You've seen a top shot before, you've seen shotguns before.
03:40 I just see it in a way that's completely subversive
03:42 and different than you've ever seen it.
03:44 And well, the dogs, well, everyone's seen a dog before.
03:47 I just had dog bite crotches for a couple of,
03:50 and then I'll put the roundabout,
03:52 I'll put a, you know, basically a very simple
03:55 gun martial art fight in the middle of five lanes
03:57 of traffic and people go, oh my God.
04:00 So we're trying to expand, but in clever ways.
04:03 We're trying to not just go bigger or blowing more stuff up
04:05 or having more of something,
04:07 but we're trying to combine little sub genres.
04:10 - Saying goodbyes?
04:11 - Saying hello.
04:13 - You think your wife can hear you?
04:18 - No.
04:19 - Hi, Bob.
04:20 - Maybe I'm wrong.
04:24 - You're going to die.
04:29 - Maybe not.
04:31 ♪ Goodbye to you, my trusted friend ♪
04:36 - A new day is dawning.
04:38 New ideas, new rules, new management.
04:43 ♪ We've known each other since we were nine or 10 ♪
04:48 - Who is this?
04:49 - The Marquis de Gramont.
04:51 - Challenging to single combat.
04:54 Win or lose, it's a way out.
04:56 - I don't sit at the table.
05:00 - Your family does.
05:02 - Our whole, to my point,
05:05 when you go into the stunt gym,
05:06 you'll always see a lot of a little.
05:09 You'll always see that a lot of a little.
05:11 Meaning we'll always, the colors will be different.
05:14 There'll be like in every action sequence,
05:16 you'll see a number four or any of them.
05:18 Color, set piece, weapon, wardrobe, the bad guys,
05:22 who is fighting, the styles will change.
05:24 There'll always be a lot of a little different things.
05:27 And if we can create the great moments
05:29 of the guy in the big fat purple suit
05:31 falling off and hitting it,
05:32 you know, the dog jumping over the car,
05:34 Keanu doing the one big roll,
05:35 like these great moments, that's great.
05:38 But I also want to cover my bets
05:39 by wrapping them in very interesting pieces
05:42 and having all these great little changes.
05:44 So when you say, are we expanding?
05:46 Are we going bigger?
05:47 In little ways.
05:48 And then the point I'm faced with this challenge, right?
05:52 I'm told I'm doing John Wick 4.
05:56 So you can either try to do the same
05:58 or whatever you see franchises that do that,
06:00 or you see bigger.
06:02 Okay, but if you don't want to stay the same
06:04 and you just don't want to blow more stuff up,
06:05 what is, how do you improve?
06:07 Where do you go?
06:08 Like Keanu's almost 60.
06:10 I'm getting all my stunt, like, you know, we've done,
06:13 let's just say a lot of action.
06:15 So like, how do I go somewhere?
06:18 And when Keanu and I talk about it, it's like, okay,
06:23 how are we going to do this?
06:24 And it's like, okay, well, it starts with him and I.
06:27 So if you're looking to the true root of the answer
06:30 that I'm giving you is,
06:31 I start by making Keanu this much better.
06:33 He works harder, he gets in better shape,
06:36 he stretches harder, he learns nunchucks,
06:39 he learns better driving, he gets better.
06:41 He gets better at everything John Wick.
06:43 And then I'll take what you see on screen,
06:45 is the stuff that we think he got a lot better at,
06:47 things that were worth of interest.
06:49 What you don't see are all the other things we tried
06:51 that didn't go so well.
06:52 So you're seeing the nunchucks,
06:55 you're seeing a little bit of sword,
06:56 you're seeing the driving that he's excellent at,
06:58 you're seeing the falls,
06:59 you're seeing our stunt guys get better,
07:01 you're seeing the dogs get better.
07:02 I got to get better.
07:03 I got to be a better shooter,
07:04 I got to use better lighting,
07:05 I got to be a better storyteller.
07:07 Then our crews get a little bit better.
07:09 So that's how it feels more expansive,
07:11 is everybody got a little bit better.
07:14 Hopefully we got a little bit better on number three.
07:16 (growling)
07:18 - So, you want to kill him?
07:22 You want to kill him?
07:26 I want to kill him.
07:28 What about you Mr. Wick?
07:32 - I'm going to kill you.
07:34 - For better, of course, yeah.
07:38 But it looks like we have ourselves a genuine conundrum.
07:46 A quandary if you will, a real life dilemma.
07:49 So, I thought we play a game.
07:56 One hand.
07:57 The winner decides who lives,
08:00 and who does not.
08:03 - So he's very good at the head dips and the tilt.
08:07 And we've kind of got this symbiotic relationship now
08:10 with lensing and what I'm wanting out of each shot.
08:13 So that's kind of a collaborative thing,
08:14 but it kind of, after four movies,
08:17 you know when the pushing is coming,
08:18 when he's going to go, yeah.
08:21 Like you know when that's coming.
08:23 So he's been a great partner with that to bring that out.
08:26 And he also, we both have very, I guess,
08:29 anime sensibilities when to put that rhythm in.
08:34 But also, the movies are so big and complex
08:40 that you do discover a lot of this,
08:42 like you have it in your head.
08:43 And I would say I'm lucky.
08:45 I think half the time what's in my head works pretty good.
08:47 The other half is the massaging
08:49 and discovering in editorial.
08:52 Both are good.
08:53 I'm, you know, I love discovering things.
08:55 So that's good.
08:57 - You come here thinking there is a way
08:59 out of this world for you, Mr. Wick.
09:01 There is not.
09:04 (speaking in foreign language)
09:12 - Sakrikur.
09:13 Sakrikur.
09:19 Weapons.
09:21 - If you win, the table will honor its word.
09:26 You will have your freedom, but you won't take it.
09:31 - I mean, I love the fact that you were,
09:34 obviously a lot of people talked about
09:35 sort of the samurai elements and all that,
09:37 but also the Western sort of motif.
09:40 You know, can you talk about those things?
09:42 How deep do you guys try to get into?
09:44 Obviously on Ronin, you were probably talking
09:46 about something about like this,
09:48 but you know, when did that sort of idea sort of formulate
09:52 and how have your guys' perceptions
09:55 or your perception of what a samurai is
09:58 changed now over the four films?
10:00 - Another good question.
10:02 I would say like, look, this goes back
10:04 to a very root concept or thematic we had.
10:07 John Wick was never meant to be a movie.
10:09 We thought we were doing one off
10:11 and we'd never work again.
10:12 So John Wick 1 was just supposed to be,
10:15 I tell this story all the time.
10:16 We wrote, we had two whiteboards.
10:19 We wrote everything we love about action movies,
10:21 everything we hate about action movies.
10:23 And we're never gonna do these things
10:25 and we're gonna try to do these.
10:26 We only thought we were doing one little movie
10:27 that was going right to video and on whatever scene.
10:30 So we're like, why make a movie
10:32 when we can make a love letter?
10:33 Let's make a love letter to, you know,
10:36 point blank bullet, you know,
10:39 some John Woo and some martial arts stuff.
10:41 Like that's it, that's it.
10:43 Love letter, we don't care about structure.
10:45 We don't care about third acts.
10:46 We don't care, like we're just gonna do it.
10:48 And then now we're in a franchise,
10:51 we're like, oh, we better come up with a story.
10:53 And they've kind of been like that.
10:56 So we followed that motif through.
10:58 - Blades.
11:06 Pistols.
11:07 - Dueling pistols, 30 paces.
11:16 In the event that both parties survive,
11:19 each will approach the other at increments of 10 paces
11:23 until only one remains.
11:25 - You ever seen the series "Zatouichi"?
11:28 - I have not, no, I have not.
11:29 - Go see the series "Zatouichi".
11:30 It starts way back in 1962 with "Hikaru Katsu".
11:34 You'll like it.
11:35 It's the original "Blind Swordsman" series.
11:37 It's the longest running film series in Japanese.
11:40 My point is what I like about it
11:41 is not just the "Blind Swordsman" and the martial arts
11:43 and how well it's executed.
11:46 It's a guy that we come to find out has been in the Yakuza,
11:50 but he's looking for redemption.
11:52 So basically everyone he meets,
11:53 and they held this through for 26 films
11:56 and 100 episodes of TV.
11:57 Like it's insane that there are no 100% good guys.
12:02 Even the best people within the series
12:05 have these little flaws.
12:06 And it just gives, even from '62 all the way to like 2000,
12:11 I think it was like 2008 or something like that.
12:13 They had flipped the world of the samurai.
12:16 It was almost an anti-samurai thing.
12:17 With the samurai, we're usually the bad guys, mostly.
12:20 What we liked about Wick is something we brought from that,
12:23 which is everyone's a bad guy.
12:25 We have good bad, bad guys, and we have bad, bad bad guys.
12:29 So we got to play with the concept of white hats,
12:33 black hats of samurai and Ronin and what that is.
12:37 Assassins, counter-assassins, bodyguards.
12:41 And when you're cut free of that trope of,
12:45 Keanu wouldn't do that or John Wick wouldn't do that
12:47 'cause he's a good guy.
12:48 We're like, whoa, no, he's a very bad guy.
12:52 You just like him.
12:54 Bad guys can like puppies too, man.
12:55 Like that's cool.
12:56 He loved his wife, but he still did very bad things.
12:59 So once we got people to bite in with that,
13:01 that changed the way we could flip all the tropes.
13:05 You know what I'm saying?
13:05 'Cause John Wick in none of the movies is the good guy.
13:09 He's the hero, he's the protagonist,
13:11 but he's not the good guy.
13:13 - Nobody's a good guy.
13:15 Nobody's a good guy.
13:15 - If you look at motivations, really in number four,
13:18 Donnie Yen is the only one that was motivated
13:21 to do something for someone else,
13:24 the same as Don, who was not in the world.
13:25 Everybody else had a very selfish reason
13:27 of doing what they were doing.
13:28 And I like playing with that.
13:31 It was one of the things we put up on our board
13:33 very early on is, you know,
13:36 don't worry about hero or anti-hero
13:38 or try to do the same, like stay away from tropes.
13:40 And to do that, we kind of took away that door,
13:45 that option, like everyone's a bad guy, period.
13:47 And you still, it's up on the blackboard,
13:48 two offices down.
13:50 There are no good guys.
13:51 I think that everyone's a bad guy.
13:53 And that's how you get to play with things, right?
13:56 I wish we had thought this through better
13:59 because we didn't know we're doing four films.
14:00 I kind of made us know a couple of corners,
14:02 but I don't know.
14:05 Sometimes that's the best way to do it though, right?
14:07 If you paint yourself in the corner
14:08 and you can figure it out,
14:09 it gives you what feels fresh and what feels new.
14:12 And that's how the attitude we take in our choreography.
14:15 So we just thought we'd take that with our characters too.
14:17 Once you take away the tropey stuff,
14:20 how do you figure it out?
14:21 ♪ Please pray for me ♪
14:24 ♪ I was the black sheep of the family ♪
14:28 - Man has to look his best
14:29 when it's time to get married or buried.
14:33 - I'm going to need a gun.
14:36 ♪ Goodbye my friend, it's hard to lie ♪
14:41 - If you win, the table will honor its word.
14:52 You'll have your freedom.
14:58 Under the old laws, only one can survive.
15:01 Failure to meet its sunrise will result in execution.
15:07 - Last words, Winston?
15:13 - Just have fun out there.
15:14 (laughing)
15:16 (screaming)
15:22 (dramatic music)
15:25 (gunshots)
15:27 (dramatic music)