Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by Conservative MP Gordon Henderson from Sittingbourne and Sheppey and Labour Councillor Alister Brady from Kent County Council.
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00:23 Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
00:26 I'm Rob Bailey.
00:27 And well, Kent has been battered by Storm Kieran this week,
00:30 but it's Storm Dominic which has once again
00:32 ravaged the government.
00:34 The COVID inquiry heard foul-mouthed accounts
00:36 of dithering in Downing Street from Dominic Cummings,
00:39 once the most trusted aide of Boris Johnson.
00:42 According to Cummings, Johnson saw
00:43 COVID as nature's way of dealing with old people.
00:47 More than 7,400 people died with COVID in Kent
00:50 during the pandemic, including 1,400 in Kent care homes
00:54 between March 2020 and July 2021.
00:57 Well, here with me tonight is Conservative MP
00:59 for Sittingbourne and Sheppey, Gordon Henderson,
01:01 and Labour councillor Alastair Brady from Kent County Council.
01:04 Welcome, both of you.
01:06 It's been a rather unedifying week in politics, Gordon.
01:09 Has it been difficult for you watching
01:11 the Conservative Party behaving that way in public?
01:16 In truth, I haven't been following it.
01:20 I've seen snippets that I've seen in the media,
01:22 and it'd be silly to say otherwise.
01:24 What it seems to me is that what we're doing
01:26 is there's an element of certainly an old scores, which
01:32 does, A, the Conservative Party and the individuals concerned
01:36 no good whatsoever.
01:38 What I'd like to see the COVID inquiry do
01:42 is actually inquire some of those things,
01:45 rather than drag over personalities.
01:47 What we ought to be doing, concentrating on,
01:50 did we lock down too early?
01:51 Did we lock down too late?
01:54 What was the cause of that lockdown?
01:56 And what have been the subsequent results coming
01:59 from that lockdown?
02:00 That's what people want to understand.
02:03 They don't want to know what Dominic Cummings said,
02:06 and that's nonsense.
02:07 What they want to do is find out,
02:09 were we properly prepared?
02:10 How can we be properly better prepared in the future?
02:14 They have a question we should be doing, not personalities.
02:16 Let's talk about COVID and what we're going to do
02:19 should another one come along.
02:21 Alastair, do you think it's been too much of a soap opera?
02:24 I think we need to look at the granular detail
02:26 to understand what mistakes were made
02:29 and what can be done better.
02:30 I think it is astonishing.
02:33 A lot of people, and I believe that the government
02:37 at the time were incredibly incompetent.
02:39 And we are finding out that is the case.
02:42 We see what Boris Johnson has been saying
02:45 and through the messages.
02:46 We see Matt Hancock.
02:47 And all of this was under the watchful gaze of Sunek,
02:51 our Prime Minister now.
02:53 I mean, Gordon, those comments from Boris Johnson
02:55 particularly harmful, I imagine, to a lot of people around Kent
02:58 who did lose older relatives.
03:00 They are alleged comments at the end of the day.
03:04 If you want to believe Dominic Cummings,
03:06 then I feel sorry for you.
03:09 Those comments, of course, came from Chris Whitty's diary.
03:12 Well, but once again, they are secondhand comments.
03:18 If they were said, I don't think that that is at all
03:22 worthy of the Prime Minister at that time.
03:25 And I certainly feel that mistakes were made.
03:28 But, you know, Alistair is saying incompetence.
03:32 Where is the evidence of incompetence?
03:34 There were mistakes made.
03:36 What I want to know is why those mistakes were made.
03:39 Can we learn from those mistakes?
03:41 And looking forward, future, because what we want this
03:44 inquiry to do, as I repeat myself,
03:47 what we want this inquiry to do is to work out
03:51 what went wrong so that we don't make those mistakes again.
03:54 So if we have another pandemic, that we are better prepared
03:57 to actually meet the challenges that it brings up.
04:02 - Master, how do you think people around Kent
04:04 would have reacted on hearing some of the phrases
04:06 and the words we've heard this week?
04:08 Too crude in many ways for us to repeat them tonight
04:10 on the show.
04:11 - Well, Gordon mentioned that he hasn't been watching it.
04:13 I have, and I'm sure many people in Kent
04:16 have been watching that.
04:17 And I think the incompetence that I'm mentioning
04:21 has come from all the other civil servants
04:23 and the officers and everybody involved.
04:26 It's not just incompetence, they're talking about infighting,
04:28 they're talking about misogyny, and that can't happen.
04:33 We have the same individuals in those positions
04:37 and they need to work away and look away
04:40 for the number 10 and the cabinet to work together.
04:44 What is unfortunate, in 2016, there was a project
04:48 called Cygus, where looking at what would happen
04:51 if there was a pandemic.
04:52 It wasn't looking at COVID specifically,
04:55 and recommendations came from that.
04:57 And what is disappointing is those recommendations
04:59 were not taken up.
05:00 The recommendation said that we are not prepared,
05:02 and then years later, it demonstrated that we weren't.
05:06 That needs to be addressed.
05:08 - I don't disagree.
05:09 And we've got to make sure it doesn't happen again.
05:11 We've got to make sure that next time
05:12 we are properly prepared.
05:15 But, you know, I repeat, those individuals
05:20 that have been caught out making the wrong comments,
05:25 I don't think you can put all the, you know,
05:29 let's blame them, let's not blame the Conservative Party.
05:31 I'm sure that I could point to people in the Labour Party
05:35 who are equally bad when it comes to communicating wrongly.
05:40 - A lot of this was happening on a WhatsApp group,
05:43 and there are survivors from the cabinet of that time,
05:46 still in very prominent positions,
05:48 including obviously the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak,
05:50 but Grant Shapps, Stephen Barclay,
05:51 Therese Coffey, Michael Gove, all still in the cabinet,
05:54 probably saw, if not all of those messages,
05:58 then at least some of them.
06:00 Do you think it's right,
06:01 with that kind of language flying around,
06:03 that the people who did it
06:04 or the people that didn't call it out can stay in their jobs?
06:07 - That's for them to, that's for them to decide.
06:10 Once again, I say, I don't know all the details,
06:12 and I'll be honest, I don't know all the details.
06:15 I would be appalled if they did make
06:19 misogynistic or racist or any other comments
06:24 on a WhatsApp group, and I think that would,
06:28 they should be brought out of account.
06:31 But that's for them to, that's not for me to justify,
06:33 or not for me to either apologise for or justify.
06:36 - And it does feel, looking from the outside in,
06:39 a lot of people around Kent probably feeling,
06:40 well, if I behaved like that at work,
06:41 I'd expect to be fired.
06:43 You think, Alistair?
06:43 - Yes, it's not professional, is it?
06:45 In business, there would be accountability.
06:49 People may lose their jobs because of that,
06:52 and it should be the same in government.
06:54 We will see more interviews,
06:57 Boris Johnson and Ritchie Sunak
06:59 will be interviewed by the Inquiry,
07:01 and hopefully they'll re-find their phones,
07:03 so the full picture can come out of this.
07:05 Because you must look at the detail,
07:08 and then from the detail, act on it.
07:10 - You've both spoken about the need
07:12 for robustness in future.
07:13 The main point of this Inquiry, obviously,
07:15 is to look at how we would respond
07:18 to a new variant, a new wave in the future.
07:20 And part of that may well be about the frontline care
07:23 that we have available to us here in Kent.
07:26 There's been a lot of concern over the last few weeks
07:29 about particularly the availability of GPs
07:32 to patients in Kent.
07:34 And we've got Canterbury and Swale,
07:36 Sittingbourne and Sheppey, obviously, represented here.
07:39 There are surgeries in Swale
07:41 where one GP is serving 2,000 people.
07:44 There is a surgery in Canterbury,
07:46 the old school surgery,
07:47 where 2,000 people are being served by a single GP.
07:51 The national average is 1,500 people per GP.
07:55 Alastair, do you think Kent is being poorly served
07:59 in healthcare in that way,
08:00 and does that have potential consequences
08:02 for us in the future?
08:04 - First, you've got to look at training.
08:05 It takes a very long time to train midwives,
08:08 nurses, doctors, and that should have happened a decade ago.
08:12 Through austerity, there are a lot of cuts,
08:15 and now we are seeing the after effect of all of this.
08:19 And Kent residents are the ones that are suffering.
08:22 Going back to having a family doctor,
08:27 that's the way forward.
08:29 So you actually know the name of your doctor,
08:31 and the doctor knows your name and your family
08:34 and what is needed.
08:36 To do that, we need to employ more doctors,
08:38 we need to train more staff,
08:41 and more investment, right investment in the NHS.
08:44 - I agree with Alastair.
08:46 I would point out, 'cause he's right,
08:48 it takes 10 years to train a GP.
08:51 If we wanted GPs this year,
08:55 they should have been trained 10 years ago.
08:58 But 10 years ago, the then coalition government
09:02 was facing trying to repair the bankruptcy
09:07 that the previous Labour government had put us into.
09:11 Now that previous Labour government
09:13 didn't provide us with enough GPs,
09:15 or else we'd have had those GPs.
09:17 So it's not, and I'm not saying this is a political thing,
09:20 it has been addressed now.
09:22 And in Canterbury, we've now got a medical school,
09:24 which will provide us with GPs for the future.
09:28 But it's more than that.
09:29 - But Swale Council, obviously in your patch,
09:31 has written to Stephen Barclay, the health minister,
09:33 saying they urgently need more GPs now.
09:35 - Yes, they do.
09:36 No, they do.
09:37 And I've raised it in Parliament.
09:38 You've only got to check Hansard
09:39 to see the number of times that I have raised in Parliament
09:41 the lack of GPs in our area.
09:43 I've raised it with our integrated care board,
09:45 the Kent and Medway integrated care board.
09:47 And they are doing what they can.
09:49 They're offering incentives to try and get
09:51 more GPs into our area.
09:53 So, and that's one of the problems we face.
09:55 It is a problem.
09:56 It's not just GPs.
09:57 As Alastair said, it's other healthcare,
09:59 it's public sector workers,
10:00 it's prison officers, police officers, teachers.
10:04 It's difficult to recruit them.
10:05 And it's difficult to recruit them in Kent
10:07 because we are so close to London
10:09 where people can earn six, seven, 8,000 pound a year more
10:13 in London waiting allowance.
10:15 And that has a knock-on effect all the way down the line.
10:17 So we've got to, one way or another,
10:20 whichever government's in power
10:21 after the next general election,
10:22 I'd urge them to consider seriously
10:25 extending the London waiting allowance
10:27 on a graduated basis into counties like Kent,
10:31 Surrey and Sussex next to Kent.
10:32 - I'll bring Alastair in before we run out of time
10:34 in this half.
10:35 There are some points there.
10:37 I mean, Labour haven't yet,
10:38 they've said they'll invest in the NHS.
10:39 We haven't heard an awful lot of detail
10:41 about exactly how.
10:42 Is there a solution there to help address the problems
10:45 that we have today,
10:46 not the ones that we are going to have in a decade?
10:47 - It's not just medical practices and doctor surgeries.
10:50 It's all services that need to be funded sufficiently.
10:54 Over the last decade,
10:55 local authorities have been underfunded by 70%, seven zero.
11:00 And that's taking away children's services,
11:02 young people's services.
11:06 It's the whole approach on how you can support a family
11:09 with healthy living and supporting them that way
11:13 and tackling the mental health crisis.
11:15 And through that, there's less of a burden on the NHS
11:19 because it's the whole approach.
11:20 - Excellent.
11:22 Well, that's all we've got time for in this half.
11:24 It's time for a short break.
11:26 When we come back,
11:27 we'll find out which Kent councils are paying out huge sums
11:31 on temporary housing for struggling families,
11:33 putting them into B&Bs
11:34 and other types of temporary accommodation.
11:37 We'll also find out whose effigy will be thrown
11:40 on the bonfire in Eden Bridge in the annual fireworks night,
11:43 which always raises a few eyebrows.
11:46 So, stay with us.
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15:04 - Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:12 Next tonight, could the cost of supporting
15:15 struggling families push some Kent councils to bankruptcy?
15:19 More than 150 councils across the country
15:21 have called on the government to find more cash
15:23 to help families pay unaffordable rents
15:25 or find temporary homes.
15:27 Four Kent councils are paying more than 10%
15:30 of their total budget on B&Bs and other accommodation
15:33 for people who would otherwise be homeless.
15:35 Well, still here with me is the Conservative
15:37 Sittingbourne and Sheppey MP, Gordon Henderson,
15:39 and Labour councillor Alistair Brady
15:41 from Kent County Council.
15:43 Alistair, how much of a concern is the amount of money
15:48 that councils are now having to spend
15:50 to support people who are on serious risk
15:53 of becoming homeless?
15:54 - It is a concern as we move towards winter
15:57 and the cold period and we've just had a storm.
16:00 We need to be doing more to house homeless people
16:03 and rough sleepers.
16:05 If we look at other countries, if we look at Finland,
16:07 they've almost eradicated homelessness
16:09 and that is through concise spending
16:13 and enough to spend on our homeless people
16:15 to be able to house them and then to have the support
16:19 that are needed to then get them back on their feet.
16:22 - Gordon, Shelter put out some data this week
16:25 on how much, as a proportion of their core spending power,
16:28 local authorities across England were spending on this
16:30 and Swale was one of the highest.
16:33 More than 20% of its core spending power
16:35 going on temporary accommodation.
16:38 I mean, that's a staggering amount of money
16:40 that could be used on other services as well.
16:42 - It could be.
16:43 One of the problems with Swale is that they don't have any,
16:46 they have very little temporary accommodation.
16:48 So they have to pay other local authorities
16:51 to take their homeless people.
16:52 But I have to say that Swale Borough Council
16:56 would be the first to admit that the government
16:58 has given them millions of pounds extra
17:01 over the last two or three years
17:03 to help with the homelessness problem.
17:05 But there is only one answer to it.
17:07 Well, two answers, actually.
17:08 One, we should be building more houses, more social housing,
17:12 to ensure that there are more homes to put those people into.
17:15 And two, we should be giving,
17:17 we should be removing the cap on local authorities
17:20 so that they can charge more council tax,
17:23 the council tax needed to provide those services.
17:26 That's what local democracy is really all about.
17:28 And I've been a borough council, a county council,
17:30 and a member of parliament.
17:31 So I know that way back, that was the answer,
17:36 the reason they introduced a cap was to protect people
17:40 who were living in an area
17:44 where there's a profligate local authority.
17:47 - I mean, they were going up by 10% odd.
17:49 - 10% odd, so at times, weren't they?
17:50 - Exactly. - And that's a significant cost.
17:52 - But at the moment, there's a cap of 2.9%.
17:55 And yet we know that inflation is 5%.
17:57 So local authorities have got to meet the difference.
18:00 And so we should be allowing them to increase
18:02 their council tax to a realistic level.
18:05 - Would council tax increases as a solution to this
18:07 be an affordable and progressive solution?
18:10 - During a cost of living crisis,
18:11 putting the burden on the taxpayer, on the most in need?
18:15 No, of course not.
18:17 As I've mentioned, there's been underfunding
18:18 over the last decade to local authorities
18:21 from central government.
18:22 And that is the real concern, that's the real issue.
18:26 And that has led to Kent County Council cutting services.
18:30 So in September 2022,
18:34 they stopped the Homeless Connect contract,
18:37 which was 5.7 million pounds,
18:40 which was looking to support homeless people in Kent.
18:43 And Porchlight then looked at,
18:46 there would be a knock-on effect of 11 million pounds
18:48 throughout Kent per year for local authorities
18:51 that needs to be spent to look after homeless people.
18:55 We've just had a cut of the 16 to 19 year old
19:00 care leavers accommodation.
19:04 Usually they'll be housed until they're 21.
19:08 That's going to be cut,
19:09 and that's going to be transitioned over the next two years.
19:12 And that's going to have another knock-on effect
19:14 to other local authorities.
19:16 So this is underfunding from central government.
19:19 - Alastair is once again falling into the Labour trap
19:24 of believing that the government has money.
19:26 The government doesn't have money.
19:27 It gets its money from the taxpayer.
19:30 So whether it's central government
19:32 providing local authorities with money,
19:34 which it takes from the wages of working people,
19:38 or whether it's local government
19:40 who are providing those services,
19:42 raising their money in council tax,
19:43 it's still a tax.
19:45 And he talks about a cost of living crisis,
19:47 but ultimately there's no magic money tree.
19:49 The money's got to come from somewhere.
19:51 And I'd love to know where Labour Party
19:54 is going to get the money to fund all these things
19:56 it's promising.
19:58 - I'll tell you.
19:59 So we look at what happens with the PPE purchasing.
20:04 A lot of money was wasted,
20:06 billions and billions and billions of pounds.
20:08 Now at the moment,
20:09 how the government funds local authorities
20:12 is with piecemeal packages.
20:14 They say, "We would like to fund this,
20:17 but you've got to work up a proposal."
20:19 Now it takes about £200,000 to work up a proposal.
20:22 And then every local authority
20:24 needs to bid against each other
20:25 to get that pot of funding.
20:27 - So you just give them money without them having to work up a proposal?
20:29 - Oh, what, give taxpayers money to local authorities?
20:31 Well, of course.
20:32 Because then the local authorities know
20:34 that that taxpayer's money can be spent.
20:36 - So you're just giving them money
20:38 without them coming together with a proposal
20:40 to prove that it needs it?
20:41 - Are you trying to say local authorities
20:42 don't know how to spend money prudently on their residents?
20:45 - What I'm saying to you is that...
20:46 - That sounds like what you just said.
20:48 - What I'm saying is that I'm a cynical old man
20:52 who actually understands that local government,
20:54 if you didn't make them prove what money they needed,
20:56 would just put the money in and take the money anyway.
20:59 Look, it's got to come from somewhere.
21:00 And you've got to have budgets and rules
21:04 to put in place to ensure that money is spent properly.
21:07 You don't just give it to them.
21:08 - No, of course.
21:09 The Labour Party and KCC...
21:10 - I wish I lived in Canterbury
21:11 if you were going to give me all this stuff.
21:13 - The Labour Party and KCC have been working up
21:15 for the last couple of years alternative budgets
21:17 where we invest in prevention,
21:19 where we invest to save.
21:21 - Where are you going to get the money from?
21:23 - The central government gives local...
21:25 - So where is it going to get the money from?
21:26 - Because they already give pots of money
21:28 to local authorities.
21:29 - Where is it going to come from,
21:30 this money you're going to spend?
21:31 - The same pots of money that are given to local governments.
21:32 - Where is it going to come from, the money?
21:35 The money in the first place?
21:36 - Council tax.
21:37 It's going to central government.
21:39 - Then central government dishes it out in a certain way.
21:42 Instead of going to local authorities,
21:44 this is the money that you deserve to spend on your residents.
21:47 You can look at me in a questioning way,
21:49 but I'm sure if you asked your colleagues within KCC
21:53 if this would be a fair way to fund local authorities,
21:56 they will agree with me and disagree with you.
21:57 - I've spoken to my colleagues in local government
22:00 and they say if you could remove the cap on council tax,
22:03 it would resolve all of our funding problems.
22:07 - So what percentage do you think we should raise council tax?
22:10 - That's up to the local authorities to decide.
22:12 And if the people who elect them
22:15 don't like how they're spending it,
22:17 then they will get kicked out of...
22:18 That's the local democracy fund.
22:20 - And we'll see next autumn in the general election
22:24 what people think about the funding model
22:26 of local authorities with central government.
22:28 - Yeah.
22:30 I wouldn't worry about that because I'm not standing next autumn.
22:34 - We'll move on from there then.
22:36 And we'll have a quick look at this year,
22:38 what's happening in Edenbridge.
22:40 Every year, Edenbridge chooses an effigy of a public figure
22:43 to burn on the bonfire.
22:44 On fireworks night, politicians have been frequent targets,
22:47 including Boris Johnson, Donald Trump,
22:49 Tony Blair and Liz Truss.
22:51 This year, the town has chosen London's Labour Mayor,
22:55 Sadiq Khan. Here's why.
22:57 - The first time that we've been holding this event
22:59 and creating these effigies,
23:01 that there's actually something that is right on our doorstep.
23:03 So it affects the livelihoods of businesses in Edenbridge,
23:06 of residents who need to visit relatives,
23:08 people who perhaps do it giving care.
23:10 And the border literally is just about 20 minutes
23:13 from the edge of our town.
23:15 So that's why people have been so passionate about it
23:18 and why they voted for us to go in this direction.
23:21 - ...ironic about seeing the architect of a net zero scheme
23:28 literally going up in smoke?
23:31 - It is an interesting choice.
23:32 I would have chosen Matt Hancock with the Grim Reaper effigy.
23:37 But I think it took the artist a couple of months
23:39 to make this effigy.
23:41 But I think Ulez is affecting their residents.
23:46 But the people that should be paying
23:48 for tackling the climate crisis
23:51 are the big businesses that have been destroying the planet.
23:54 If you look, Shell this quarter has just announced
23:57 £3 billion worth of profits.
24:00 They're destroying the planet
24:01 and people are paying the price.
24:04 - Are you surprised to see Sadiq Khan being chosen?
24:07 - Not really.
24:09 I think that he has affected a lot of people in Kent
24:14 who didn't elect him, aren't able to diselect him,
24:19 because he's the London mayor, he's not the Kent mayor.
24:22 And I think that there are a lot of...
24:24 And it's all taxation.
24:27 The thing about taxation, this is a tax.
24:29 Ulez is a tax.
24:30 It is always the poor people that suffer.
24:33 The rich people don't care.
24:35 They got their rolls-royce, they don't care.
24:37 It's the poor people that always get hammered by tax,
24:40 whether it's him or him.
24:42 - We've heard that Matt Hancock
24:44 will be put on Alice's choice.
24:46 What would your choice be for the bonfire?
24:48 - I think probably Dominic Cummings
24:50 would be first in line for me
24:52 because I think he's done a lot of disservice
24:54 to the Conservative Party.
24:56 - And you're both happy, is this a legitimate form of protest,
24:58 what we see in Eden Bridge every year?
24:59 - Yeah, I think this is a bit of fun, isn't it?
25:02 Life is fun.
25:04 - They're not going to put Sadiq Khan on the bonfire?
25:07 - Oh no, just to clarify, that's important.
25:09 - That would be an issue.
25:10 It's an effigy.
25:12 - We could never condone that anyway, could we?
25:13 - No, of course we wouldn't.
25:15 - And I think before we move on tonight,
25:17 we should acknowledge that it's a big night
25:19 in your constituency tonight.
25:21 - It is.
25:22 - Sheppar United FC will be facing Walsall
25:24 in the first round of the FA Cup.
25:26 Any messages you'd like to give them?
25:27 - Yes, good luck.
25:29 Look, I'm a staunch Gillingham fan, through and through.
25:34 Cut me, I've got, like a sticker up,
25:36 I'll have Gillingham through me.
25:39 Three weeks ago, Walsall beat Gillingham 4-1.
25:42 I want to see my team, my second team,
25:44 Sheppar United, beat them tonight.
25:47 I don't care whether it's one nil on penalties,
25:49 however it is, but I want to see them beat them.
25:51 - School prediction?
25:55 - I think it will be a draw.
25:58 Penalties shape you to win.
26:01 - Alistair, I know it's night in your patch,
26:02 but we'd like to see a local team progressing
26:04 through the FA Cup.
26:04 How do you think they do?
26:05 - Any Kent team should progress through the FA Cup.
26:08 So I'm fully supportive.
26:11 One nil, very squeaky bum, but I think they'll go through.
26:15 - You and I are friends.
26:17 - Well, there we go, we've seen some extraordinary things.
26:19 Friendship over that.
26:20 We've seen a Conservative for suggesting tax rises
26:22 and a Labour politician not suggesting tax rises.
26:24 I think we've probably broken some moulds tonight
26:26 on the Politics Show.
26:28 But that's all from us here tonight.
26:31 Thank you to both of my guests for coming into the studio
26:34 and having such a constructive debate.
26:36 There's more politics news, analysis and opinion
26:39 in the new Politics section of Kent Online.
26:41 You can find it in a tab on the homepage.
26:43 And stay with us because Kent Tonight is coming up
26:46 with all the latest news.
26:47 Have a great week evening.
26:48 Good night.
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