Globally, Palestinian cause a magnet for 'self-determination', resisting 'colonialism & oppression'
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Transcript
00:00 Well, the situation in Gaza has prompted pro-Palestinian rallies around the world, and we're going to
00:05 talk more about that now with Middle East strategist Simon Mabon, who joins me from
00:09 Lancaster.
00:10 Simon, have you been surprised by the amount of pro-Palestinian protests that have popped
00:14 up around the world?
00:17 Thanks for having me.
00:18 But no, not at all, to be honest.
00:20 We know that the Palestinian cause has long been a sort of magnet for resistance against
00:26 colonialism, against oppression, and in favor of self-determination.
00:32 We see this globally.
00:34 And as a result of everything that's been happening over the past week, 10 days, it's
00:40 really brought the Palestinian cause really to the fore.
00:45 Now many of these groups and people have been articulating calls for Palestinian self-determination,
00:51 statehood at the end of occupation for decades.
00:54 So for many, it's not a new thing that they have been articulating these calls for change
00:59 and protesting against it.
01:02 But it's amplified it, what's happened in the past week or so.
01:06 It's really positioned at front and center within global media dialogue, within discourse,
01:12 and sort of a real battle line, if you will, in contemporary politics between those who
01:18 support Israel, those who support Palestine.
01:21 And that, I think, is a deeply problematic and false dichotomy in terms of the shared
01:27 humanity that the people of that part of the world have, and indeed people around the world
01:33 have here.
01:34 Right.
01:35 And it also gets quite thorny because public opinion might be changing.
01:38 But we're talking about two separate things here.
01:40 There is Hamas, of course, and then there's the Palestinians.
01:43 Can we generalize about what people think about each of those two separate entities?
01:48 I think there is a need to separate the two.
01:51 There is Hamas as a violent entity that has committed these heinous attacks on Israel,
01:57 on civilians in Israel, and has regularly launched rockets against targets in southern
02:04 Israel.
02:05 Then there is Hamas, the political entity that was elected in the mid-2000s but prevented
02:11 from taking power by a grouping of Palestinian factions and others.
02:17 And I think that tells you a lot about how Hamas has been viewed by many Palestinians.
02:22 Some of the most vocal criticism of Hamas that I've ever heard has come from Palestinian
02:28 friends, predominantly in the West Bank, it has to be said.
02:31 But Hamas has not been a popular organization, and these attacks have really doubled down
02:38 that vitriol against Hamas amongst Palestinians.
02:41 At the same time, for many, the Hamas act has positioned resistance against an occupation
02:49 and a blockade front and center again.
02:52 So people are having to hold these complex moral positions of being against violence
02:57 against civilians, but at the same time being against a blockade and being against an occupation.
03:02 It's a complex, thorny issue, as you're saying.
03:05 Many people in the global south have been slamming what they call a double standard,
03:09 and that's something that people are particularly pointing out with visits from Western leaders.
03:13 Joe Biden, Rishi Sunak, the French president is due to come, all expressing their support
03:18 for Israel.
03:19 Could that be counterproductive in any way, do you think?
03:23 I think it does open up these charges of hypocrisy.
03:26 And if Western leaders in particular are positioning democracy, freedom, human rights front and
03:33 center in their foreign policy and the speeches that they make about global politics, and
03:40 yet they do not hold key allies to account, then that I think really does open up these
03:46 charges of hypocrisy.
03:47 For example, in Iran, there's been a lot of discourse about supporting protesters against
03:53 the Islamic Republic.
03:54 So ordinary Iranians who are long frustrated at the socioeconomic and political situation
04:00 there, so calls for human rights, calls for democratic reform.
04:03 And yet when this is a key US, UK, Western ally, and there hasn't been that same call
04:10 for the respect for human rights, respect for dignity, calls for democratic engagement,
04:16 then it does open up these charges of hypocrisy.
04:19 And that in turn can erode global influence from Western powers.
04:24 And I think that is a really important thing to take note of over time.
04:28 It won't happen immediately, but over time it will do.
04:31 But Simon, does it help when things happen like when the King of Jordan canceled that
04:35 summit with Joe Biden and the Egyptian and Palestinian presidents just after the attack
04:39 on the hospital in Gaza?
04:42 There still isn't a lot of information exactly on what happened, but do you think that the
04:46 King of Jordan was right to do so?
04:48 Well, I'm a big advocate of dialogue in all cases.
04:52 I have been involved in a peace initiative for a number of years now, and dialogue is
04:55 the only way of resolving tensions across the board.
04:59 So in that sense, I believe that he was wrong to cancel the meeting.
05:02 Dialogue is the only way out of this.
05:04 A military solution is not possible.
05:06 This will not end in any way in a positive light for anyone by relying on a military
05:11 solution.
05:12 So yes, he was wrong.
05:13 But the flip side is at that moment, King Abdullah could not, or his calculations were
05:20 that he could not be seen to be meeting with a U.S. president that was condoning strikes
05:25 from the Israeli defense forces on hospitals and civilians in Gaza.
05:31 Now that was the perception that, as you say, it's still unclear as to who was responsible.
05:36 But for King Abdullah and those advisors around him, the sense was that this was an Israeli
05:42 attack, and as a result, he could not be seen to be meeting with the president at a time
05:48 when there is widespread frustration across Jordan at what's going on in the West Bank
05:53 and in Gaza.
05:54 So as you said, there is this sort of dual dimension that needs to take into account
05:59 what is happening across Arab states in the region where there is widespread support for
06:04 the Palestinian cause, and yet leaders are working towards diplomatic normalization in
06:10 pursuit of socioeconomic and political transformations.
06:14 So you have another layer of tension starting to play out where leaders have to in some
06:19 ways be seen to be supporting the Palestinian cause, but at the same time are bound diplomatically
06:24 to other moves that have been going on.
06:28 And Simon, just to wrap up, Israel says its main goal is to get rid of Hamas completely.
06:32 Let's say that does happen.
06:34 There still is a huge power vacuum.
06:36 Who would step into leadership of the Palestinians, do you think?
06:40 Well that's part of the problem right now, because the Palestinian Authority does not
06:44 have the same level of credibility that it had under Yasser Arafat, for example.
06:51 There are debates and questions as to who will succeed Mahmoud Abbas.
06:55 There is an uncertainty as to what the next steps are for the Palestinian Authority as
07:00 a whole.
07:01 And then of course you have the practicalities, the political legalities, the logistical dimensions
07:06 of who is to govern in Gaza.
07:09 And so Israel will not want to leave a vacuum if indeed it does go in militarily to crush
07:14 Hamas.
07:15 It will not want to leave a vacuum.
07:16 And that adds another whole host of legal, political, and strategic dimensions to their
07:23 calculations, all the while 2.2 million people are suffering with no respect for human rights,
07:30 no respect for human dignity, limited access to humanitarian aid.
07:34 We've just been talking about getting aid in across the Rafah crossing.
07:37 But until then, they are struggling, they are suffering.
07:41 And without a longstanding, lasting political solution, there will be widespread unrest,
07:47 widespread resentment, and acts of frustration and despair amongst Palestinians.
07:52 Simon, thank you for sharing your expertise with us.
07:55 Simon Mabon speaking to me there from Lancaster.
07:56 Thank you.
07:56 to me there from Lancaster.