Marlin and sailfish swim the world’s oceans, but are they in danger? Executive Editor Chris Woodward talks with Ellen Peel, president of The Billfish Foundation, about the many successes she has seen, but also about the great challenges for the fisheries and the anglers who target them.
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00:00 [music]
00:09 Welcome to the Women in Fishing podcast. I'm Chris Woodward.
00:13 The Women in Fishing podcast is sponsored by Axon Noble Yacht Coatings,
00:17 makers of Interluxe and All Grip products for boats.
00:22 For nearly 30 years, Ellen Peel's name has been associated with the pinnacle of
00:27 billfish conservation as executive director and now president of the
00:32 Billfish Foundation. TBF launched in 1986 with a mission to
00:37 promote worldwide management for species including
00:40 marlin, sailfish, spearfish, and swordfish.
00:44 Peel and TBF advocate for better scientific data,
00:48 increased catch, tag, and release participation,
00:51 prohibition of commercial billfish sale, gear regulation, and much,
00:56 much more. Peel is a Mississippi native and a
00:59 Mississippi and West Coast educated marine resources lawyer.
01:03 Welcome to the podcast, Ellen. It's great to see you.
01:06 Thank you, Chris, and all who are listening. It's terrific to be here. I've
01:10 known Chris, I'd say, indirectly through in
01:13 the fishing world for years, so it's great to finally get together.
01:17 I know, really. We kind of, I've always sort of been in the
01:21 slight offshore, some inshore, you know, that type of thing, and Ellen's world has
01:26 been blue water, and, you know, so we haven't really
01:30 crossed paths that often, but when we do, it's great, and
01:34 Ellen, you're somebody that I've always
01:36 appreciated and respected, and so I wanted to talk to you about
01:42 some of the efforts that you've been doing
01:44 over the last 30 plus years, and so I wanted to kind of jump into it
01:50 and just get a little of your background and say how
01:54 and when were you first introduced to fishing, whether it's salt or fresh
01:58 water, and what did you like about it? Well, I
02:01 was first introduced when I was living in Gulf Breeze, Florida, which is just
02:05 outside of Pensacola. I was married, and my husband and I went
02:09 with some neighbors out on their boat, and they said, "We're going to fish a
02:12 little bit," and I thought, "Oh, great. Pole's over the side. What is
02:15 this all about?" You know, and so my eyes clearly were wide open,
02:20 you know, it was lovely to be out. Gentle breeze, though I have been
02:24 inhaling hurricanes almost, but the breeze, the fish, the porpoises,
02:28 it was great, and all of a sudden I hear this,
02:32 and people start jumping around, and I'm going, I'm amazed,
02:36 and I watch, and I realize, you know, they had a marlin on,
02:40 and before we knew it, the fish was up alongside the boat and released.
02:44 Well, needless to say, I was wide awake, and the adrenaline was pumping, so
02:49 that was my first introduction of this is what goes on offshore.
02:54 Yeah, that real scream is just undeniable. I mean, it's amazing, just the first time
03:01 you ever hear that thing, and especially if there's a big billfish
03:04 or a wahoo on there, and that zip of the line, oh my goodness, it's like,
03:09 you know, it's the opposite of fingernails on a blackboard. It's so
03:12 thrilling. Absolutely, and when I first got here,
03:16 there was one company, and maybe they're still out there,
03:18 that makes an alarm clock, and that's the alarm.
03:22 I thought, oh my god, that would get you up on your toes and out of bed
03:27 instantly. I haven't found one yet, but I must admit, I haven't been
03:31 seriously looking because my Doberman gets me up now.
03:34 Oh yeah, I have a Labrador retriever who does the same thing.
03:39 So, you mentioned that a marlin was on the line.
03:42 Were you able to get on the rod for that fish, or when was your first
03:46 billfish catch? A little bit later that year, that was 1978,
03:50 which seems like yesterday. We were out with the same
03:54 couple, you know, fishing, but I was told I might be able to.
03:59 And so, there were four of us, you know, fishing,
04:02 and so we had four 10 reel 50 internationals, and we were rotating
04:09 every 20, every 30 minutes, you know. Well, you know, nothing had happened, and so
04:15 I got into position to be ready, and sure enough,
04:18 the line went out, and there was a marlin on. It was a white marlin,
04:22 and, you know, and the last thing you want on your first
04:26 fish is to lose it. Well, unfortunately, it got off right away.
04:29 I thought, oh god, this is not good. But the fish came around clearly because
04:36 they didn't get all rods back in, and it took the bait again.
04:41 And so, you know, my adrenaline was pumping, you know, people are yelling at
04:46 you, trying to help, crank, pump, crank, pump. I was not quite
04:50 sure. Anyway, I was not in sync initially, but
04:54 did get there, and after about 15 minutes,
04:59 brought the fish alongside the boat. Of course, I could not breathe because I was
05:03 so afraid it was going to get off, you know. It
05:06 wasn't long before the crew, you know, released the fish, and when the
05:11 fish was released, I realized I was hooked.
05:14 That was it. I thought, my goodness gracious, what an adrenaline trip this is.
05:18 Yeah, absolutely, and it's funny because what that led to then, and
05:24 in the ensuing years, had a lot, I mean, just
05:27 really turned your entire life around. So, how did you get this sort of
05:33 billfish management bug, and the whole idea to be part of the process?
05:39 We were fishing tournaments in the north gulf coast out of Pensacola,
05:44 and at the time, that was in the mid-70s and late-70s,
05:48 the National Marine Fishery Service, well, it's actually NOAA's lab in Miami,
05:53 and their lab in Panama City, would send a scientist to some of the tournaments.
05:57 And at the time, Pensacola was the biggest on the gulf coast. They had over
06:01 100 boats. So, the scientist was there, would share
06:05 some information on the status of billfish, the need
06:10 for data so they could be better managed,
06:14 tagging data specifically. So, he brought a few tags, showed us how to do it,
06:19 and then I became very interested. It was subsequent to that, that I went to
06:25 Ole Miss to get my basic law degree, and then on
06:29 to the West Coast University of Washington in Seattle.
06:32 And there, you had to identify a specialty, and for a bit, I was thinking
06:39 big trees, big fish, that adrenaline rush was
06:42 modifying. So, I went with big fish, and my emphasis
06:47 area was management of Atlantic billfish.
06:51 So, you know, by the time I finished the paper,
06:54 I actually got a job in Washington, D.C. to represent
06:58 billfish with a non-profit, which was cool. I was really psyched. Since I fished, I
07:05 enjoyed it. You know, I tackled the subject with great
07:08 vigor. After being in D.C., about a year, the job
07:12 transferred to St. Petersburg, which was a lovely place. And I worked there
07:18 again about a year, and I added Fishery Management Council responsibilities
07:23 in addition to billfish. So, I was responsible for other species.
07:27 But I would keep sending things to TBF, you know, saying, "Hey, are you guys aware
07:33 of this? Are you going to do this?" What about it? Well, finally, one day, I
07:38 think it was Dave Lear, I believe, was here then,
07:42 and he left the job to go back to the Northern Gulf.
07:46 And so, a board member called me and said,
07:50 "Would you like to come over here and work for TBF?" And I said, "Well,
07:54 it's certainly the job I would, I believe I would love to have. However, the
07:58 realities, are you guys serious about this? Because
08:03 I'm really serious. I want to make sure that, you know,
08:06 some, the board is wanting to do something." Right.
08:09 And so, one trustee said, "Well, you can come over, not considered a job
08:15 interview." I go, "That's fine." I said, "How much
08:17 time do I need to allot?" And he said, "Probably an hour." I said, "All right,
08:20 that's cool." So, I flew over, met with them, three and a
08:24 half or four hours later, we were still talking.
08:26 Wow. So, I thanked them and went back home, or went back to my office
08:33 at St. Pete. And the next day, I got a call saying,
08:36 "Look, we really want you in this job." And so, I've always had Doberman
08:42 Pinsers, and I had two then. And I said, "Well, you
08:45 know, I have to find a place that would let me have my pups." And went to
08:50 Rockefeller said, "Oh, don't worry, Ellen. I have an apartment in Miami. You could
08:56 stay there for a while." And I said, "Well, sir, that is
08:58 very thoughtful and generous of you. But, you know, I wouldn't bring two large
09:03 dogs into someone else's property, you know. Don't worry, it's all marble
09:08 floors."
09:11 Well, I thought they could break their legs. Anyway, he had to
09:16 work with me to find a place elsewhere, and that worked out.
09:19 Well, great. Wow. And interestingly, obviously, that was also a period of time
09:25 when, you know, women being in this, that kind of
09:30 industry, you didn't find a lot of us. I mean, I'm
09:34 the same way. I mean, 30 years ago, I was writing about fishing, and, you know, for
09:39 a newspaper. And there weren't very many women who were
09:42 doing that. So, you know, that's a great testament to
09:46 both you and your skills and your knowledge, as well as
09:50 as their ability to recognize that, and, you know, and to invite to a board.
09:56 Was that, I mean, did you feel like that was, everybody was on board with the
10:00 whole thing when you first started? I think all
10:03 board members were. They were very excited. And I didn't put much thought
10:08 into, "Gee, you're stepping into a male-
10:13 dominated industry." And there might have been, you know,
10:16 some folks, constituents that were thinking the little lady or the little
10:20 girl, you know, might be a manby-pamby, a little soft. So,
10:23 I don't know if she's really can represent anglers. Well, anybody that
10:27 knows me knows I'm not soft nor a manby-pamby.
10:31 And that, whatever I take on, I'm deadly serious about it. Yeah. You know, but
10:37 also, at that time, it was clear right after I got here that, after going
10:42 to a few government meetings, the National Marine Fishery Service
10:47 had no priority or thought of billfish. You know, I'm like, they're the center of
10:52 my universe. How could they not be important?
10:55 So, the more I went to meetings, the more I kept raising the issue,
10:58 and, you know, and they finally have gotten on the agendas.
11:02 The same was true internationally. New countries,
11:05 you know, thought about billfish, but like to say,
11:09 they're on the agenda, you know, they are not leaving the agenda.
11:14 And I'm proud to say that TBF established that,
11:18 you know, credibility with the entities. Yeah. So, I mean, back in, say, 1996, which
11:24 was your first year there, what were the greatest challenges? What did you see?
11:29 Like, when you spoke to those guys for three or four hours,
11:32 what were your, like, you know, I got to get this done. Can we do this?
11:36 Well, I think I was so excited and animated that I was just spewing forth
11:42 all these things that I thought we need to do. You know, you heard of
11:46 National Marine Fishery Service. This is how it's done.
11:49 And so, they were very gracious, you know, and it was a diverse board, as they all are.
11:55 And I was thrilled when I got the call the next day, but hesitant because of my pups.
12:01 And it's all worked out. Good. Good.
12:04 Well, what was the, was there management at all in 1996 for Billfish?
12:09 What existed at that time period? Yeah, I have to give the South Atlantic
12:14 Fishery Management Council primary responsibility.
12:18 They coordinated getting the first Billfish management plan passed.
12:23 There had been an effort, but the commercial industry at the time,
12:27 I believe, had filed suit. And, you know, when it came to, they couldn't land the fish.
12:33 It then went to all of the councils, the Gulf, Atlantic, and Caribbean,
12:38 and they had to work together and reach consensus.
12:42 I don't know how they did that and how many years it took,
12:45 but I applaud each of those who participated and supported it.
12:49 So, there was a management plan. So, they had heard the word Billfish,
12:54 but no one was doing anything. You know, they got it on the books that there could be no
12:58 commercial landings, sale, barter, or trade.
13:02 But that was it, and that was a great start. But from there, you know, we had to add some teeth to
13:08 it and get things moving. You know, we initially started doing some socioeconomic studies to try to
13:15 let governments know, you know, this is an important industry.
13:20 Some people would say, "Oh, you're just out having fun."
13:24 I said, "It is pleasurable, but it's an industry, and an industry has grown tremendously,
13:31 that jobs depend on it, economies depend on it."
13:35 So, we felt the socioeconomic studies would be good, even though they cannot be the determining
13:40 factor in any decisions. We also did, you know, started basic research. See this little device?
13:48 Oh, yeah.
13:48 This was used to inject tetracycline, oxytectricycline, into billfish,
13:56 and it would stain the ear bones. And the idea was, when fish were recaptured,
14:01 scientists could take out that ear bone, and they would be stained like the rings in a tree.
14:06 Right.
14:07 And they could count those and determine the age. Unfortunately, those little ear bones are,
14:13 you know, about the size of my small fingernail, and they're very delicate.
14:18 And so, that didn't advance science like everyone had hoped.
14:22 But TBF gave money for probably 15 years to the International Management Organization
14:28 to get stock assessments going.
14:31 And those are calculations based on reported landings over years.
14:38 You're comparing what's landed today compared to 30 years ago or five years ago,
14:44 to establish a trend of, "Are the landings going down because fish are not available?"
14:51 So, we got the first stock assessment done, and we have continued supporting those.
14:57 We then hired our own scientist, who's, if not the world's best stock assessment scientist,
15:02 as one other scientist said, "He's in the top three, and the other two are dead."
15:07 Who's that, Eric?
15:10 No, well, Eric was the government scientist. Now, this is Dr. Philip Goodyear,
15:15 who still does some work for us.
15:18 But we took the lead in working with Eric and NEMS at the lab and ICAT to get,
15:27 excuse me, stock assessments moving.
15:30 And I should say that's Dr. Eric Prince, whether I was mentioning.
15:35 Yes, and Dr. Philip Goodyear. Yes, yes.
15:38 We also advanced, you know, tagging, basic tagging.
15:42 You know, the tags were available, but do you remember, they were the old,
15:46 I don't think I have one here, but the metal tag heads.
15:49 Okay.
15:50 And they were being shed by fish quite easily.
15:53 So, we then advanced redesigning that tag head, and we came up with a hydroscopic nylon
16:02 substance like they use in surgeries for the tag head.
16:07 Yeah.
16:07 Over the years, we've modified the tag, you know,
16:10 lengthening the streamer, shortening the streamer.
16:12 So, we're constantly looking for that.
16:16 Then, you know, later advanced design and free distribution of non-offset circle hooks.
16:23 So, and I will identify or say that I realized some very good anglers
16:30 can catch a marlin on the straight shaft hook and not gut hook them.
16:34 Most people cannot.
16:37 And so, that's why circle hooks came about and have become relatively popular, I think.
16:43 Well, back in the late 90s, what was the, you know, I mean, what were the anglers like,
16:49 the billfish anglers?
16:51 What kind of mentality did they have?
16:53 And how have you been involved in having that change?
16:58 It has been a challenge because from my beginning here,
17:02 anglers have been enthusiastic to help and are very interested.
17:08 What is a major challenge is realizing that billfish science is slow like medical science.
17:18 You know, initially I had people going, "Look, we've tagged I don't know how many fish."
17:22 And we don't, we haven't stopped all the overfishing and we haven't done this.
17:27 And I said, "But we're making progress on it."
17:30 And I think to some people that may not be as satisfying, you know,
17:34 they wanted an answer right then and I would love to give them one.
17:37 But it doesn't work like that.
17:39 It's hard to get individuals to understand or get excited about fishing policy.
17:46 Gotcha, yeah.
17:47 You know, it is what determines where they can fish, how they can fish,
17:53 how many restraints on them.
17:55 Fishing opportunities just of itself could be lost if we don't get some help from anglers.
18:02 So I just ask for patience and have always, you know, stay with us.
18:07 We're making progress.
18:08 It just doesn't come overnight.
18:10 Right.
18:10 Well, I think the ethic has certainly changed too among the mass majority of anglers.
18:19 You know, in the 90s, there wasn't as much thought about conservation and people were just not,
18:25 you know, all together on board.
18:27 And over time, that slowly changed.
18:30 I mean, in particular, obviously, Florida has been a major catch and release state for many years.
18:38 And they promoted that and they have, you know, fought, you know, other anglers who
18:45 wanted to bring billfish to the docks and hang them up like the old pictures that we've all seen.
18:50 You know, but they-- so Florida has done an awful lot to advance
18:55 billfish conservation among anglers.
19:00 And it's been harder in other locations and most definitely harder on the Pacific coast because,
19:05 you know, those are still-- there's still a harvest for Pacific billfish, right?
19:11 Right.
19:11 Some nations, yes, not the U.S., but some nations do.
19:14 And you're absolutely right.
19:15 When you look at the sport fishing conservation ethic here, it's outstanding.
19:21 By U.S. and international agreement, U.S. anglers are limited to landing no more than 250 marlin.
19:29 That's blue and white combined a year.
19:31 And tournaments and anglers are all supporting that.
19:36 We applaud that.
19:37 You know, they came and supported TBF's campaign to stop the attempt to list white marlin under the
19:45 ESA.
19:46 You know, they support us when we were going for a bluefin tuna quota for the Gulf of Mexico
19:52 anglers, incidental quota, I must say.
19:55 So on all the major campaigns, they'll come forward.
19:58 It's just in between some of the major waves, it gets a little tedious to say, "Whew, isn't this
20:06 exciting?"
20:06 Yeah, I know.
20:08 It's a day-in, day-out slog.
20:10 Do you think that we are where we need to be with billfish conservation on the Atlantic coast?
20:18 Or would say, does TBF lobby for release-only billfish tournaments?
20:26 No, we do not.
20:27 And part of, you know, she's not the soft little lady tree hugger greenie, you know, no, we are a
20:33 sport fishing conservation organization created by anglers, far anglers, and billfish.
20:40 You know, so no, we do not advocate for all release.
20:44 We want responsible fishing, which is what we see most all the time, you know, but not all
20:51 release.
20:51 I think if figures got much worse in terms of stock abundance, I fully believe anglers would
20:58 support whatever is needed.
21:00 Our constituents and board represent a good cross-section of users.
21:05 So we're anglers.
21:07 Gotcha.
21:08 What are the stock assessments telling you now, based on what you've seen over the last 20 or
21:14 30 years?
21:14 Improvements, thank goodness, not to where we want to be.
21:20 And it's so strange that the white marlin assessment was done back in June or July, and
21:26 the agency won't say anything about it.
21:28 Really?
21:29 Yeah, which is, and of course, you know, with COVID, the scientists couldn't meet.
21:35 And so that set a comfortable precedent that a lot of people rather stay home and, you know,
21:42 and contribute than to show up.
21:45 I don't know what the challenges were, but I think it was in part participation, representation,
21:52 but they've not said squat about the white marlin assessment.
21:57 So I'm eager to hear, I'm eager to see them do a sailfish assessment and an update on blue
22:05 marlin.
22:06 I believe swordfish will be a priority at this year's international negotiations at
22:13 ICAT in November.
22:14 So I'm eager to see, I hope that their population abundance is staying up.
22:19 Now, that transitions me into, you know, when you talk about what about the future, you
22:26 know, we have to, as a large community, kill the extreme vessel speed reduction proposals
22:35 that are out there.
22:36 They were only applying to 65 feet and over.
22:40 And there was some analysis done on compliance.
22:44 It turned out compliance was overall good, except from the container, the big container
22:51 ships.
22:51 Instead of focusing on trying to get compliance on container ships, they've turned now to
22:58 all the boat owners and anglers of 35 feet and up.
23:03 And that's not going to make the difference.
23:05 I just think it's a tragedy.
23:08 The North Atlantic right whale was listed on the endangered species list in 1970.
23:14 That's 50 something years.
23:16 I say the National Marine Fisheries Service did not do their part to avoid what they have
23:21 created, a splash between commerce and conservation.
23:27 And I believe it rests on them.
23:29 Yeah.
23:30 Well, let me give a little explainer there.
23:32 There are attempts right now to slow down sport fishing vessels and vessels of similar
23:41 size in regions where right whales are known to calve and to swim and to a speed limit
23:51 of, I think, what is this, 10 miles per hour, 10 knots?
23:54 5 miles per hour.
23:55 And so they won't get up on plane on that.
23:58 Yeah.
23:58 If you're trying to go out to the canyons or if you're going somewhere in the South
24:02 Atlantic, for instance, where I live, the Gulf Stream is 80 miles offshore.
24:07 So I can't imagine being able to run for a certain amount and then having to go 10 miles
24:13 per hour for 60 or 70 miles.
24:15 So it's something that's been highly contested right now.
24:20 And obviously, it definitely affects the bill fishing situation.
24:24 So obviously, TBF is working to help squash that.
24:31 And so is that sort of your biggest goal for the next few years?
24:37 It's a major goal.
24:38 But let me say, Pat Healy of Viking Yacht has really taken the full charge on that one.
24:44 And there were 95,000 public comments submitted on this.
24:51 Now, we don't have the exact breakdown, but we've been told by people who are close to
24:57 it that there were more in the boating and fishing industry, which is great.
25:02 It's very disappointing that the only response the National Marine Fisheries Service has
25:07 made came out last Friday.
25:08 And it was, we are going to host a one-day workshop in DC in February and talk about
25:21 technological ways to avoid whales.
25:26 If they would just go to the US Navy and Woods Hole, they both have marine mammal monitoring
25:35 programs that you can check in on yourself.
25:38 So why not draw from that to avoid, come up with an alert system for private boats?
25:46 But for 50 years, they haven't done anything.
25:49 And now they're just going to say, OK, if you guys just don't use your boat, the whales
25:53 will be happy.
25:53 Well, how would you invite our listeners to participate in TBF's goals and the conservation
26:05 of billfish?
26:06 Well, let me insert one more thing.
26:09 The second biggest issue right now are the closed zones.
26:15 They were put in place 20 and 21 years ago to keep pelagic longlining out of these waters
26:21 off the East Coast and in the Gulf.
26:23 Well, the National Marine Fisheries Service says we need to let the boats back in.
26:29 And I go, wait a minute, isn't this like having someone put savings aside each month?
26:34 And after 20 years, you come back and say, now go spend all that money because we want
26:39 to know if this was a good practice.
26:42 It makes no sense.
26:43 So what they propose in this 600-page document shrinks it all.
26:48 It does nothing to add protections for marlin.
26:52 It's primarily focused on sharks and sea turtles.
26:57 Now, and the science they're using is questionable.
27:00 It's based on environmental factors and observer catch data, not on landing data from vessels
27:07 or landing data from satellite tagging.
27:12 So we have huge questions about it.
27:15 We believe that it needs to go back for a real peer review.
27:19 They published it in a journal but forgot to mention that one of the authors of the
27:23 paper is an editor for the journal.
27:26 They then sent it to an expert panel.
27:29 But the National Marine Fisheries Service actually told those scientists do not look
27:35 at the methodology.
27:38 It's the methodology that comes up with the options that the agency is putting in place.
27:43 So we have found those in HMS cannot explain this.
27:46 And most people have not read it.
27:49 We have.
27:49 We've got extensive comments and we're working different areas to try to get that halted.
27:55 How would you invite our listeners to be involved?
27:58 Many ways.
27:59 Obviously, we'd love for you to join and then you get regular information.
28:05 But we're not an organization that's just all it's just membership numbers.
28:10 No, we're issue oriented.
28:11 We want to take care of the fish and fishing.
28:13 You can join.
28:15 You can start as low as I think it's $75 now.
28:18 You could go on our website.
28:21 There's a free monthly e-news.
28:23 You can sign up for on the home page at the very bottom.
28:26 You can come to our events.
28:28 We have great parties.
28:29 It's October 27th this year in conjunction with the Lauderdale Boat Show.
28:35 Anyway, you know that you can associate with us.
28:39 You can ask questions.
28:40 You can support.
28:41 I am more than happy to share what we know and what is the rationale.
28:47 And hopefully I'm wanting to motivate people to realize policy isn't all boring.
28:53 It is the way to ensure you can keep fishing and TBF is your best insurance to keep bill fishing.
29:03 So do reach out and work with us.
29:07 Great.
29:07 Thank you so much for joining me, Ellen.
29:10 We really appreciate you helping us understand the billfish world
29:14 and giving us some opportunities to become involved in conservation.
29:19 Thank you.
29:20 Thank you so very much.
29:21 I'll be seeing you hopefully on the water.
29:30 (upbeat music)
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