'Can I Finish?': Chip Roy And Henry Cuellar Have Epic Debate On Border Security
At a House Rules Committee hearing on Friday, Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX) and Rep. Chip Roy (R-TX) spoke about border security.
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00:00 The district I represent is about 100 miles from the border.
00:03 Obviously, our friend, Mr. Gonzalez, is on the border.
00:06 Obviously, our friend here, Mr. Cuellar, is on the border.
00:09 And we visited many times together down there.
00:12 Yeah, sure. I would yield to the gentleman.
00:15 You seem to want to jump in.
00:16 Yeah, no, thank you.
00:17 And look, we're all on the same page.
00:19 We want to secure the border.
00:21 Nobody wants open borders.
00:23 I certainly don't want open borders.
00:25 We just got to figure out how we get there.
00:27 But it takes a little input from all of us.
00:31 I mean, I know we've got a lot of smart folks on the Republican side,
00:33 but there's some of us on the D side that we can contribute in getting there.
00:38 And that's what we're asking.
00:39 And we're just asking how do we get there.
00:41 You talk about the wall.
00:43 Some of us forgot that somebody had said that Mexico was going to pay for the wall.
00:48 So why have the taxpayers do that when we can use the monies to provide more security at the border?
00:55 Most drugs will come in.
00:57 If you talk about fentanyl, 90 to 94 percent will come through the checkpoints or the ports of entry.
01:04 Why not put more money there?
01:05 Why not jam where the fentanyl is coming from,
01:09 where the precursors are coming in through two ports of entry in the Pacific side of Mexico?
01:14 Let's jam it over there before they get over here to our U.S. side.
01:18 If you want to stop drugs, look at the ports of entry.
01:21 If you want to stop folks, you've got to have repercussions at the border.
01:25 We're on the same page on that.
01:27 But also keep in mind that people come into the U.S. so many ways.
01:31 The number one visa overstays come from not Mexico but actually comes from Canada.
01:36 Nobody's talking about a wall between the U.S. and Canada, but that's the number one violator of visa overstays.
01:42 So, again, all I'm saying is when we talk about border security, let's be smart on how we secure the border itself.
01:49 That's all.
01:50 And I emphasize that.
01:51 I don't know if you've been getting what I've been saying.
01:55 We ought to put more resources outside the one-yard line called the U.S. border.
02:00 We ought to provide homeland the authority to do more outside the U.S. border called the one-yard line.
02:10 And if we extend it over there and let homeland do what they need to do outside the one-yard line,
02:16 I think we can be a lot more effective to stop drugs and folks who are not supposed to be coming in.
02:21 Mr. George.
02:22 Will the gentleman yield?
02:23 Yes, sir.
02:24 Could you explain to these folks, because I've heard it from you, and obviously you have a tremendous amount of expertise living in it every weekend when you go home,
02:30 what you're talking about exactly by that so they understand?
02:33 Because that's something that we're all going to have to act on here in Congress to make that happen.
02:38 Yeah, and what we're talking about giving homeland authority is there's certain -- homeland already has authorities that do certain things outside.
02:47 They can pre-clear, they can do certain things outside before goods come in.
02:52 But if we give them the authorities, and there is a proposed language that I think I've showed both of you all,
02:58 is to let them do where they can work with governments outside, the ones who are willing to work with us outside,
03:04 where if they do certain work out there, instead of -- once they go through that process,
03:11 instead of having folks being deported here, they can actually do that with other governments.
03:17 In other words, certain things that homeland can do outside that they're doing at the border, give them that authority outside the border itself.
03:25 And by the way, we need to provide more money for ICE, air ICE.
03:31 You want to talk about comparisons, Mr. Norman?
03:35 If you look at after the Title 42 went away, Title 42 from May 12th to just about a week ago,
03:46 and you compare it to the same period of time, 2019, where there was another administration,
03:53 this administration actually deported 253,000 people to over 150 countries,
04:01 compared to about 160,000 that was done over the same period of time.
04:06 I'm just saying is -- all I'm saying is let's agree that we want to secure the border.
04:13 Let's just include people, other folks, not only Republicans, but Democrats and the Senate.
04:19 I guess we've got to include the Senate right now.
04:21 My question is -- I need to get back to time here.
04:23 On a couple of the issues that you've raised, you talk about the wall.
04:28 I can't remember when you came to Congress, but I don't know if you remember.
04:30 Did you overlap with Sylvester Reyes?
04:32 I did.
04:34 So Sylvester Reyes, who had been a former border patrol agent, supported construction of a wall in El Paso, a Democrat.
04:43 He did so because he thought it was critically important for maintaining control of the borders inside of El Paso.
04:51 Most of the evidence has indicated that it has been highly successful at managing the flow within the city of El Paso.
04:58 Obviously, people go around.
05:00 That's kind of the point.
05:02 With respect to McAllen and Brownsville, I think the gentleman would recognize the traffic comes predominantly in the areas
05:10 where there is not infrastructure and walls.
05:13 If you would allow me, I think that is wrong.
05:17 I'm holding on to my time for a second.
05:20 I'll let you answer.
05:21 The fact of the matter is, in terms of the data, in terms of what Border Patrol has testified to and said here in this House,
05:30 the traffic has predominantly been around the areas where there is no walls sitting in those two cities side by side.
05:39 Present what you want to say.
05:41 I'm going to say that is what has been testified to in the Judiciary Committee before me.
05:45 Maybe you've had different testimony.
05:46 I'm telling you what has been testified to us under oath here in the House of Representatives,
05:51 the extent to which the wall that was created in California in the mid-1990s,
05:56 the traffic went from something like 600,000 down to maybe 30,000 or 40,000,
06:01 immediately following the creating of the triple-layered barriers.
06:05 Now, where I will fully agree with the gentleman is that you can build a wall all the way from the Gulf of Mexico to San Diego,
06:13 and it could be 100 feet high and 100 feet wide, but if you're going to weld the doors open,
06:18 and if you're going to tell the world that you will be released into the United States no matter what,
06:23 if you come here in utter magic words, then that infrastructure is completely irrelevant.
06:29 So my point is, I'm just saying all of that is, we don't need to debate the wall.
06:33 I support figuring out how to continue to get it.
06:36 And one more thing on the wall to the gentleman saying about who's paying for it.
06:40 Well, who left the parts sitting rusting in fields in the state of Texas?
06:44 Who is paying people not to build the wall, as this administration has been doing?
06:50 Who is now trying to say they're selling the wall parts off instead of actually doing what was already appropriate?
06:57 And by the way, passed under law in this body, the Secure Fence Act,
07:03 with language going along with saying you shall construct the wall, this body spoke,
07:10 and then had language defining operational control that the Secretary of Homeland Security came before our committee
07:20 and when presented with the definition said, yes, we are following that, we do have operational control,
07:26 said it multiple times under oath, and then later the following year came back before the same committee
07:33 and said, oh, I wasn't talking about that definition, even though it was the very definition presented with it.
07:40 Obviously, out of respect to my good friend, I'll yield to you.
07:43 And again, thank you.
07:45 Look, I can't show this, but I'll leave it somewhere.
07:54 Gentlemen, if you look at Laredo, it's the second lowest crossing of people coming in.
08:04 We don't have a fence there.
08:06 Let me finish.
08:07 It's not the place for people passing.
08:09 Eagle Pass right now is all the population because the cartels are moving them there.
08:14 Go ahead.
08:15 West Texas is the lowest crossing area.
08:17 They don't have a fence, or they might have God's wall.
08:20 There's nothing out there.
08:21 I'm just telling you the different border patrol sectors.
08:26 Laredo doesn't have a fence, and we don't have the crossings.
08:29 We're the second lowest crossing that is.
08:31 If you look at the numbers where most people are coming in, it's where we have a fence.
08:35 Why?
08:36 Because there's two profiles of individuals.
08:38 Eagle Pass?
08:39 Can I finish?
08:40 Eagle Pass?
08:41 Gentlemen, just if I interrupt again, I'm enjoying the debate, so I don't want to stop it.
08:46 It's your time.
08:47 Just please don't talk over one another because the stenographer has to get it out.
08:52 I am.
08:53 I've shown up with my Coke.
08:55 I have popcorn.
08:57 It's a good debate.
08:59 The gentleman from Mr. Roy controls the time.
09:02 That's what we're supposed to do.
09:03 Henry.
09:04 May I?
09:05 Yes.
09:06 Thank you.
09:07 If you look at the fence in Texas, you have a river.
09:12 The middle of the boundary is in the middle of the river.
09:16 You don't have a fence there, right?
09:18 I mean, Governor Abbott might disagree at the moment.
09:22 There's not.
09:23 So the next closest place will be the riverbank.
09:26 We don't have a fence by the riverbank for the 1,200 miles.
09:29 Why?
09:30 Because there's a treaty and plus it's going to be washed away.
09:33 So where is the fence in Texas?
09:36 Well, we have a river.
09:37 It's a quarter of a mile or a mile away.
09:40 So the two profiles of individuals coming in are the ones who are trying to evade and
09:45 the ones who say, "Aquà estoy."
09:47 I'm ready to turn myself in.
09:48 So what they do is they touch the riverbank.
09:51 They can claim asylum.
09:52 They walk up a quarter of a mile or a mile away to where the fence is,
09:57 whether you have a gate or no gate there.
10:00 They'll come in and say, "Border Patrol, here I am," and they turn themselves in.
10:04 So how does the fence stop those asylum seekers when they're a quarter of a mile away?
10:09 And, again --
10:10 I'm going to respond to that, and I'll give you time back.
10:13 Because this administration is creating the environment for that to occur.
10:17 Because when we were having a proper debate about a fence,
10:20 it was when we actually had individuals, including Jay Johnson, a Democrat,
10:24 who said 1,000 a week was an emergency, who actually wanted to try to enforce the law.
10:31 And now it says, "Oh, no, we're just going to say if you come here onto this dirt
10:35 and utter those magic words."
10:37 Like, I already conceded.
10:39 A fence is only as good as the willingness of the people to enforce the law.
10:44 So all I'm suggesting is that -- and you asked for time back.
10:48 So, therefore, the fence doesn't work.
10:50 You just proved my point because it is the repercussions.
10:54 You've got to have repercussions.
10:56 If you don't have repercussions, a fence is not going to work.
10:59 Or with or without a fence, you have to have repercussions.
11:02 You've got to have the right policy.
11:04 We're in agreement there.
11:05 So we agree on that except to say that, therefore, a fence doesn't work
11:07 because you open the doors and because you say if you come up to this line,
11:11 you say if you welcome them in, the fence doesn't work.
11:14 The fact is fences, of course, they work.
11:17 And the question is fences plus law plus enforcement.
11:20 The fence at the White House is only as good to know
11:22 as if you're going to get your head blown off if you go over it.
11:25 That's literally only as good as the fence will work.
11:28 But it's there to stop flow and traffic, and if you cross the fence,
11:31 there will be consequences.
11:33 So, therefore, if you have a fence a quarter of a mile away
11:38 or half a mile away from the river, how is that effective?
11:41 You're now talking about policy.
11:43 I'm talking about fence.
11:44 It's effective if you enforce the law.
11:46 You've got to have--
11:47 So getting to the enforcement of the law, does the gentleman agree
11:51 that the ICE memo under this administration,
11:54 the guidelines for the enforcement of civil immigration law,
11:58 and Kerry Doyle's memo, follow up, or any similar successor memos
12:02 that are not allowing for the actual prosecutors to do their job
12:09 because it's using prosecutor discretion to say don't enforce,
12:13 that that's undermining ICE enforcement?
12:15 So--and I support ICE, but we're talking about the fence.
12:20 But ICE--
12:21 Let's talk about the effectiveness--
12:23 But if you let people into the country and you don't enforce the law--
12:25 Gentlemen, again, please, you can't talk over one another.
12:28 As much as an Oklahoman, I enjoy watching Texans fight.
12:34 Got to do it one at a time.
12:38 If we're talking about the effect of an offense, that's one thing.
12:42 If you want to talk about policy, that's a different thing.
12:46 And so on policy, we've got to have repercussions.
12:50 And going back to why we're here, why are we here,
12:55 we ought to be focusing on a CR so we can have time.
12:59 We've got seven days, eight days to make sure the government's shut down.
13:03 If we have a government shut down--I've talked to Border Patrol,
13:06 talked to them right before this meeting, talked to them last night,
13:08 talked to them--I've been talking to them because I live at the border.
13:11 I don't just go visit the border.
13:13 And I talk to them.
13:14 I see them at church. I see them at stores.
13:16 I see them everywhere. They're worried about it.
13:18 And if we have a shutdown, we ought to defund Border Patrol.
13:22 I don't want to defund Border Patrol.
13:24 I want to make sure that we provide the money.
13:26 They are going to be very demoralized if they have to keep working
13:32 and not get a paycheck on it.
13:34 And I agree.
13:35 Well, the gentleman agreed that they are massively demoralized
13:38 in their current state and that they're sitting there at 19,000 out of 22,000.
13:42 Would the gentleman agree that he has talked to Border Patrol agents
13:45 who are demoralized right now?
13:48 They're going to be more demoralized.
13:50 Are they demoralized right now?
13:52 I like the way things are going right now, and they're going to--
13:55 surely in eight days, they're going to really not be very happy.
13:59 But the gentleman would agree they're demoralized right now
14:04 based on the fact that this administration,
14:07 in the words of Border Patrol, almost universally, not just the union,
14:11 but the line guys that I know I've talked to, a lot of the same guys,
14:16 that they're demoralized because they're sitting there saying,
14:19 "We can't do our job. We're processing people,
14:23 and we're not patrolling the borders."
14:25 The gentleman agreed that that's what we're hearing.
14:27 I agree. I've looked at the surveys of Border Patrol over the years,
14:32 and they're probably one of the hardest hit on morale.
14:35 So right now, they were there four years ago,
14:38 and if we don't do something and provide them the paycheck that they deserve,
14:43 they're going to be very demoralized.
14:45 So understanding that--
14:46 The answer is yes.
14:48 They've been demoralized, and they will be more there right now,
14:51 and I agree with you on that.
14:53 But if we don't give a paycheck,
14:55 I can tell you they're going to be really pissed off.
14:57 So I'll concede and agree that, of course, they want their paycheck.
15:01 Everyone does, and of course, Border Patrol will say that.
15:03 But it's really important to understand that they're sitting there
15:06 looking at that and saying, "Yeah, we want change, though,
15:10 because we can't watch more of our guys get so demoralized
15:14 that their suicide rates are way up."
15:17 They're coming to us and saying, "Guys, we're running out of the ability
15:23 to keep doing this."
15:25 That's the thing.
15:26 So we all get this, and so we can go round and round about the fence,
15:30 whatever, but yeah, you're right, and you think you're making the point
15:33 that, "Oh, because the fence is a quarter mile in or a hundred yards in
15:36 or a thousand yards in, that means the fence doesn't work."
15:39 I'm making the point that says, "Of course the fence will work
15:41 if we actually enforce the law."
15:42 And then if people come there, they know, "Well, you can come to the fence,
15:44 you can say hi, or you can come to the gate and say,
15:46 'Hey, can I come in?'
15:47 You can say, 'No, you've got to go to the port of entry,
15:48 and you've got to have a passport.
15:50 Otherwise, you've got to say, 'Hey, I'm coming here seeking asylum,'"
15:52 and it's very specific, "and we send a message to the world,
15:55 'If you just say asylum, that ain't going to do it.'"
15:58 Magically, everything would stop, and then we would have an actual,
16:02 honest debate about what you raised about the ports of entry,
16:06 because the real problem is, yes, yes, we have drugs coming in
16:09 through the ports of entry.
16:10 Of course we do.
16:11 I've sat in the same scanning truck, scanners, that you've sat in
16:15 looking at the scanning trucks.
16:17 We get one out of ten?
16:18 One out of ten that we're able to actually put through the scanner.
16:21 So, okay, maybe we could talk about a budget with more scanners.
16:24 But if you have everybody sitting there processing people in tents,
16:29 and they're not patrolling the border,
16:31 then you have individuals who are getting into this country like the--
16:34 how many gotaways, my friend from Texas?
16:36 A million?
16:38 A million gotaways?
16:39 Is that what we think we've had under this administration?
16:41 What number do you think it is?
16:43 There's been getaways under all different administrations.
16:45 A million?
16:46 But let me say this.
16:47 Let me say, this wonderful debate that we're having,
16:49 discussion that we're having, you're making my point,
16:52 well, we need a CR, because we need time to work this out and get it done.
16:56 So why don't we focus, instead of trying to get something that may
17:00 or may not pass next week and not enough time, let's sit down,
17:04 get a CR so you and I can continue having this discussion.
17:08 Well, so I had a--
17:09 Let me interrupt.
17:13 Chair in this committee is traditionally always enormously generous with the time
17:17 and will continue to be, but I would just remind both of you,
17:21 we have a lot of members here that need to testify.
17:26 They're here on a Friday afternoon.
17:28 I know they've got other places to go.
17:30 So if we can move along expeditiously.
17:32 I will, at a deference to the Chairman's request, I will wind down.
17:35 But I will say this.
17:38 I will say this, smirks notwithstanding, I will say this.
17:43 This issue is not going away.
17:48 This issue merits far more debate than even we just had right here.
17:53 This issue is going to get resolved.
17:57 This is a non-negotiable reality for the representatives from Texas
18:01 that we resolve this issue and increasingly people around this country.
18:06 And so whatever people want to do in terms of how we're going to fund government,
18:09 this gets fixed.
18:12 I yield back.