Martyn Simpson is joined once again by Phil Bramley and James Copley to discuss the second round of Rugby World Cup pool stage action. Bright spots for England in their win over Japan but with Owen Farrell set to return how will the back line look going forward? It's all still to play for in Wales' pool after Fiji beat Australia and it's a big weekend ahead for Scotland who are back on the pitch against Tonga.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello and welcome to Kick and Chase,
00:09 National World's Rugby World Cup, 2020 free podcast.
00:12 I'm your host Martin Simpson,
00:14 joined once again by Phil Bramley and James Copley.
00:17 And we're gonna be looking back
00:18 at the recent round of results
00:19 and looking ahead to the next round of fixtures
00:22 at this year's Rugby World Cup finals in France.
00:25 Obvious place to start Phil, England.
00:27 Good result, performance?
00:30 - Well, yeah, being an England fan,
00:32 you're never happy are you?
00:33 I mean, if you said before the game,
00:35 win by 20 points, score four tries,
00:38 don't let any tries in, you said happy days,
00:40 top of the group, move on it.
00:41 But yeah, it was, that first half was a tough, tough watch.
00:46 You know, the people chewing their arms off,
00:49 you know, literally trying to get
00:50 some sort of excitement into the game.
00:53 What's interesting for me is whether or not,
00:55 whether the team were just sticking to the plan
00:57 and they've just been told to kick the leather
00:59 off the ball regardless,
01:00 or whether that's a plan of conditions.
01:02 I know everyone said, again,
01:03 the ball was really slippery, hot, humid night,
01:06 and they didn't want to play with a lot of the ball
01:07 in their own territory.
01:08 But it did seem, even when we're getting close to 22,
01:11 we still got any kicks through,
01:12 which it seems like a strange, strange way to do it.
01:14 Having said all of that,
01:16 you can't really come in and complain about the outcome.
01:19 Second half, it did pick up.
01:20 I thought the introduction of Mark Smith,
01:22 the fullback admittedly against a tie in Japan.
01:24 They seem to cut a few lines,
01:25 a lovely crossfield kick from George Ford again,
01:29 trying the corner.
01:30 So there were improvements.
01:32 It's steady progression.
01:33 Whether or not the English baseball will stick with them,
01:36 I mean, I remember really clearly, you know,
01:38 back in 2003, the Aussie press going after
01:41 the John Wilkinson,
01:41 "Is that all you've got, just to be kind of drop kicks?"
01:44 Nobody cares.
01:44 We came up, we came up against the trophy.
01:46 If they do it this time,
01:48 I'm more than happy to watch them
01:49 ball the pants off anybody
01:50 if it means we win three and take the trophy home.
01:53 Can't see it happening, to be honest.
01:54 I still think we have to go up significantly,
01:56 looking at the way, particularly Ireland,
01:58 but also South Africa, this round,
02:00 just kind of looked like they're on a different level
02:02 and playing a different game, quite frankly.
02:04 But you can't really blame England for that.
02:07 They did what they needed to do.
02:08 I took in back in 2018,
02:10 when England were losing at half time to Japan.
02:12 So, you know, they got the job done.
02:14 People said, "Score tries, good score tries."
02:16 Or be it off a header from Joe Mahler,
02:18 which is just bizarre.
02:20 So yeah, definitely the same progress,
02:22 but still a long way to go
02:23 if they want to progress really deep into this competition
02:26 and get to that semifinal, final, hopefully win it.
02:30 - Yeah, I mean, a little bit nervous.
02:31 There was a lot of positives to take from that game.
02:35 You just, I think, against a team
02:37 that were more clinical than Japan,
02:38 that didn't knock the ball on
02:41 every time they seemed to have it in hand.
02:44 But listen, we spoke about George Ford
02:48 after the Argentina game and how, well,
02:51 the 10 jersey was pretty much his after that performance.
02:54 He was definitely in the final 20 minute, 25, 20 minutes,
02:58 probably most of the second half,
03:01 he was certainly getting back to those levels.
03:03 But if he played himself into that 10 jersey
03:06 for the rest of the tournament in the Argentina game,
03:08 I felt in the first half
03:10 and maybe the first five, 10 minutes of the second half
03:13 against Japan, he was doing everything he could
03:15 to maybe play himself out of it.
03:17 I don't know about you guys,
03:19 but where are we now on the Owen Farrell debate
03:22 now that he's coming back?
03:23 I know England's next two games,
03:26 they've gotten their two toughest fixtures out of the way
03:28 in terms of the group stage,
03:29 but when it comes down to their next crunch match,
03:32 if you like, where do we think the thoughts
03:35 are going to be on Farrell, Ford, even Marcus Smith?
03:39 - Well, I think there are two questions.
03:41 The questions are, what does everybody else want
03:43 and what is Steve Borthwick going to do?
03:45 Because I'll tell you what Steve Borthwick is going to do,
03:46 he's going to play Ford and Farrell together at some point.
03:49 Now, whether he starts with that
03:50 or whether he brings them in, I don't know.
03:52 I still think England have looked more balanced
03:54 having a ball carry at 12
03:56 and Marchant, I think, has been quite efficient
03:59 in that back line and a bit of spark.
04:01 We're not the fastest team
04:02 when you're playing Stewart at full-back.
04:04 So if you are going to play Ford and Farrell at 12 and 13,
04:08 does that mean Tua Lange then comes at 13?
04:10 He's not the fastest.
04:12 I think, again, he hasn't seen much of the ball.
04:14 He's been okay.
04:15 I think he's had some half-decent carries.
04:17 He's hit the game line.
04:19 I'm not really sure it's going to strike fear
04:20 into the hearts of an awful lot of teams.
04:22 So if they are going to do that,
04:24 they perhaps might think about bringing
04:26 Aaron Long to the wing to get that X factor.
04:29 And again, Stewart, I thought had a really good game
04:30 with the high ball.
04:31 He actually made some decent carries as well.
04:33 I don't think you can start Smith at full-back,
04:35 but that's another option to try and add a bit of spark
04:38 if you are going to play Ford and Farrell at 12, 10, 12,
04:40 and then possibly Tua Lange at 13.
04:42 What's your thoughts on it, James?
04:46 What are you with us at the moment?
04:48 I think it's Ford's shirt to lose, personally.
04:51 I mean, he kicked two penalties,
04:54 converted four as well.
04:57 I think, you know, the assist for that try as well
05:00 with the outside of the boot was magnificent.
05:03 Maybe struggled to get into the game,
05:07 as you mentioned, for the first sort of 60 minutes.
05:08 But in terms of a fly half having an impression
05:12 on their team at this World Cup,
05:14 Ford's definitely up there
05:15 when those big moments have needed to be produced,
05:18 which is what the game's judged on, really, let's face it.
05:21 Especially if you're a 10.
05:24 I think Ford's been outstanding, to be honest.
05:26 And the big question is whether he can exert that sort of
05:31 leadership and creativity over the team
05:33 when he's got Owen Farrell behind him.
05:35 They're not going to say anything different,
05:36 but when you hear them both speak,
05:38 they both sort of think that they play quite well together
05:42 and that they can work quite well together.
05:44 Whether that's just platitude to the media or not,
05:48 I personally think that Ford's done more than enough
05:51 in these two games to not only have the 10 shirt,
05:55 but to have the keys in terms of the decision-making as well.
05:59 I think what Phil rightly points out, though, is spot on,
06:02 is the balance of that back line in terms of creativity,
06:09 pace, and then the centres being able to run lines as well.
06:13 England just haven't quite got that balance right yet.
06:17 And what happens, because obviously, as you mentioned,
06:19 Freddie Stewart lacks pace.
06:21 I thought Marcus Smith's cameo was decent at full-back,
06:24 but can he start there in a big game for England?
06:28 That would be a huge risk in a quarter-final, wouldn't it?
06:31 And Stewart is very good under the high ball,
06:33 as you rightly point out.
06:34 I think it's interesting, though, with this England team,
06:36 is that these performances,
06:40 in the context of the past 12 months, two years,
06:44 are quite promising, are quite good,
06:47 but those performances in the past two years
06:49 have been pretty dismal, really.
06:52 So if you just look at these two performances in isolation,
06:55 yes, they're an improvement,
06:56 but have they really been that good?
06:59 It's pleasing because they're getting the results
07:01 and they're scoring a few tries,
07:03 but when they come up against possibly a France
07:06 or a South Africa or an Ireland,
07:07 are they going to be able to compete?
07:08 And I think the jury is still very much out in that regard.
07:13 But I like Steve Borthwick,
07:15 and I think what he's doing is good.
07:17 And you could argue that the green shoots of recovery
07:19 are there, but I'm not really sure in terms of this World Cup
07:22 whether we've seen enough yet.
07:25 Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of having two distributors
07:31 on the pitch, a 10 and a 12,
07:33 but I'm yet to see it work at test level rugby.
07:37 When's the last time Ford and Farrell worked for England?
07:40 The only thing he would say is that
07:43 the England best ever game in the modern era
07:45 was that 2019 semi-final, and it ended up,
07:47 and it didn't start, but it did end up
07:49 with Ford, Farrell and Manu in that pitch.
07:52 The difference was in those days,
07:53 they had such ball carriers coming around the corner
07:56 that also had great hands,
07:57 and England don't have that front foot ball anymore.
08:00 And it is four years ago.
08:02 Yeah, and we've always say any 10 looks good
08:05 if he's packed, gives him an armchair ride,
08:07 gets him on the front foot,
08:08 and he can decide where to play the ball.
08:10 England still, they carried an awful lot,
08:13 and again, the conditions weren't great,
08:14 but they carried an awful lot,
08:15 and they didn't make a huge amount of line breaks
08:17 against Japan, and they lost a lot of ball.
08:20 They suffered a lot of turnovers.
08:22 So it's that continuity.
08:23 I still think if they could find a bit of front foot,
08:26 and again, the other interesting thing
08:27 would be what happens if and when they get Tom Currie back,
08:30 whether he just slots straight back in and what happens.
08:32 I didn't think Billy had a bad game,
08:34 but again, that back row for me still doesn't quite work.
08:39 Although having said that,
08:40 I thought Ben Hill was absolutely fantastic for England.
08:43 I know George Ford got the TV man of the match,
08:45 but Ben Hill would have been my man of the match
08:47 'cause he was just a superhuman,
08:49 throwing himself around, into rooks,
08:50 making himself a nuisance, energy.
08:52 I know not everyone likes the celebrations
08:54 every time they need to celebrate a knock on
08:55 or a kick to the corner or a line at one,
08:57 but he does give something to that team,
08:59 and he's someone that they can definitely follow.
09:02 - I think what I think is interesting is
09:05 if England do secure qualification, this against Chile,
09:10 and the Samoa game is almost, if you like, a free hit,
09:14 I think that might be a good sort of guinea pig game
09:19 for Ford and Farrell.
09:21 We know that Farrell and Smith didn't work.
09:25 I think Ford and Farrell could work,
09:29 but listen, it's one thing playing two distributors
09:34 against a team like Japan,
09:36 which worked well towards the end of the game there.
09:39 It's another playing it against,
09:41 like, for example, Jonathan Donte and Gael Ficu
09:45 or Damien D'Alende and Jesse Creel.
09:48 These are big boys who are gonna hit you hard
09:52 and who you're gonna need to hit hard,
09:54 and Owen Farrell's reputation for hitting players hard
09:58 is only when he's not doing it legally,
10:00 'cause apart from that, he is quite a soft 12,
10:04 and teams will target that.
10:05 - Yeah, and my other worry maybe is Manu at 13.
10:10 That 13 channel is probably the hardest to defend against,
10:14 and there's at least one occasion in the Japan game
10:16 when he got caught out of a line break,
10:17 jumping out the line.
10:18 The way that particularly Ireland play
10:21 with that kind of multi-phase option
10:22 that they give Sexton with three or four runners
10:24 coming at you, and you've got to pick the right one,
10:26 that's really hard.
10:28 And I do worry how that midfield would defend
10:32 against a team with that kind of capability.
10:34 - Yeah, and like, so the Samoa game,
10:37 certainly that's gonna be a physical game.
10:39 So I think if they've got a free hit there,
10:41 that's maybe a chance to test it out.
10:43 I'm just, again, I don't see two ball carriers
10:48 working too well at test level very often
10:50 and against the best teams
10:51 with settled centre partnerships.
10:57 - A lot of time still to go.
11:00 Let's speak about Wales, James.
11:02 I mean, is there anything really we can take away
11:07 from the 28 game against Portugal?
11:10 - I think we can take away that Portugal
11:13 are a lot better than we thought,
11:15 whether that means that Wales are a lot worse
11:17 than perhaps we thought.
11:19 It's a bizarre pool.
11:21 It's a bizarre World Cup for Wales.
11:24 That Fiji win has aged very well.
11:27 Over the past couple of weeks,
11:29 Portugal did put up a really good fight.
11:31 Very similar to England in a way,
11:34 there's still lots of questions and not so many answers.
11:39 I just think that pool as well, pool C,
11:42 is fraught with complications and permutations.
11:45 We won't go into all of them now,
11:47 but Wales could conceivably win another game in that pool
11:51 and not go through, because Fiji's win over Australia.
11:56 Wales have Australia to play.
11:58 Australia were pretty awful against Fiji, it must be said,
12:01 but have we seen enough from Wales to suggest
12:04 that they will definitely beat Australia?
12:05 No, I'm not sure I have.
12:08 Georgia, the other game coming up for Wales,
12:10 Georgia have beat Wales in recent memory.
12:15 Is that out of the realms of possibility?
12:17 No.
12:17 So despite the fact that they've played 2-1-2,
12:21 have two bonus points,
12:22 and they sit at the top of the pool on 10 points,
12:24 it ain't over yet.
12:26 And there's a lot to run.
12:28 We've seen Warren Gatland sort of bringing the youth in,
12:34 and I think that's going to benefit Wales in the long run.
12:36 I think the LOK partnership was 20 years old,
12:38 both of them 20 years old,
12:39 which in a World Cup is pretty crazy.
12:43 In regards to the Portugal game, it was a changed side,
12:47 a very changed side.
12:47 Obviously, the big hitters will come back in
12:49 for the Australia game.
12:51 It was good to see Anscombe get minutes,
12:54 because he's a very interesting case, Anscombe,
12:56 because when Wales last Grand Slammed,
12:58 Anscombe was the starting 10,
13:00 and Bigger was coming on to finish things,
13:02 and that looked to be a really good set way of doing things.
13:06 Wales beating Ireland to win that Grand Slam
13:10 seems like a very, very long time ago now.
13:12 Anscombe obviously getting injured
13:14 before the last World Cup,
13:17 which was seen as a massive blow,
13:19 and he's sort of taken a long time to come back
13:22 from a pretty horrendous injury,
13:23 never really hit the heights at 10,
13:26 but it's still very highly thought of.
13:28 So, there's lots to go out.
13:29 Will he bring Rio Dier in?
13:30 I don't think he will.
13:31 I think it will be Zamit and Adams.
13:33 And two very contrasting wingers,
13:36 really in a sense that Adams offers a real physical presence
13:39 and is quite complete,
13:40 whereas Zamit has got that sort of X factor,
13:43 but maybe lacks on the defence.
13:44 Yeah, again, lots and lots of questions,
13:49 but not too many answers.
13:51 With the Australia game coming up,
13:53 Wales, I think, have won three out of four
13:56 of the last meetings with Australia in Test matches.
14:00 But it's, yeah, I don't know how you feel about this, Phil,
14:05 but Australia are a really interesting case at the moment
14:07 because Eddie Jones just seems to be completely imploding
14:10 again at the highest level.
14:13 And I'm not really, but the thing is,
14:17 it's like, you know he was once a world-class coach.
14:20 Has he got that in him?
14:21 That's the question, isn't it, that we might find out.
14:23 Has he got it in him?
14:25 Who's still got it?
14:26 Who's still got it?
14:26 Is it Eddie?
14:27 - Final point of view,
14:28 I think Phil's really enjoying the Australian implosion.
14:31 - I'm so glad it's not Wales.
14:33 It's just, we've been through all this.
14:35 - Who's still got it?
14:36 Is it Eddie Jones or is it Warren Gatland
14:38 who's still got it?
14:39 I think probably Warren Gatland's still got it
14:41 with my Welsh hat on and having seen what I've seen
14:44 from Eddie Jones over the past 12 months in England
14:46 and such like, but he seems to be the sort of,
14:50 the dying embers of a coach in Australia
14:52 that was once world-class
14:53 and doesn't appear to be anymore.
14:54 And I would actually suggest slightly losing
14:57 his grip on things as well and starting fights
14:59 and picking quarrels here and there.
15:01 It's Fox office, isn't it?
15:04 - Yeah, he's always picked fights, you know,
15:06 he'd pick a fight with M. Shadow and give him half a chance
15:08 and fall out with it as well.
15:10 But I think the big difference is,
15:12 is Gatland has more pieces to play with,
15:15 I think you might argue.
15:15 Now you can blame Jones for him leaving behind,
15:18 you know, some really experienced players,
15:19 there's no Quaid Cooper there.
15:20 I think losing Skelton is massive.
15:22 If Skelton isn't there for that Wales game,
15:25 I'm back in Wales.
15:26 'Cause I think he's such a physical person.
15:28 Now obviously he's being picked as captain,
15:31 I think he leads that team so well.
15:33 I thought Wales' scrum was really good,
15:36 probably a good job he had a scrum
15:37 'cause he didn't have a line out,
15:38 but, you know, that functioned really well.
15:41 And again, you know, France struggled
15:43 when they made a lot of changes, you know,
15:45 even the mighty France didn't look almost human.
15:47 So I think it's fair enough for Wales
15:48 to change a lot of players
15:49 and still come out with a bonus point.
15:51 That bonus point I think is critical.
15:53 But yeah, no Skelton.
15:54 I think I'm going back Wales.
15:57 - Carter Gordon is only, sorry, Martin,
16:01 Carter Gordon, just on a side point,
16:03 Carter Gordon's Australia's only 10,
16:05 specialist 10 at the moment.
16:07 He's very young, very inexperienced.
16:09 There's talk that they might play a fullback
16:11 in the 10 role.
16:12 His name escapes me, but it's a bizarre decision, really.
16:16 - Well, again, Eddie Jones also has form
16:19 for destroying people's careers
16:20 by throwing them into the cauldron
16:23 and then say, "You're not good enough.
16:25 You're gone."
16:26 And then they don't play again.
16:27 And I like Carter Gordon.
16:30 I think he's got a lot of potential,
16:32 but he said, I remember that interview saying,
16:35 you know, "10 needs time, time of the game, mate,"
16:38 I think was his quote.
16:39 So you can't be both ways.
16:40 You can't say, "Well, he needs time.
16:41 Don't criticise me for playing,"
16:42 and then yank him off and not give him time.
16:44 Well, of course, it's Eddie Jones,
16:45 so he can do what he likes, but yeah,
16:47 that's really hard.
16:49 And yeah, I don't see a way out of this for Australia.
16:54 - I think it's testament to how many questions
17:00 there are about this Wales side,
17:01 that despite Australia's chaos
17:03 and despite Eddie Jones' arguable mismanagement,
17:05 that this isn't a done thing.
17:07 - Yeah.
17:08 - Yeah.
17:11 - Let me ask you, James,
17:13 what's going through your head
17:14 at the end of the Australia-Fiji game
17:16 when Fiji get the penalty, they've won the match,
17:19 and then absolute balls of steel,
17:24 let's go for the penalty, let's deny them the bonus point.
17:28 I mean, what are you thinking there?
17:29 You must be jumping out of your seat,
17:30 screaming, "Go on, lads," at the Fijians.
17:33 - No, I was.
17:34 My overriding thought was just over the moon
17:37 for Fiji as well, because, you know,
17:38 harking back to the Wales game,
17:40 they were unlucky on the wrong side
17:41 of some questionable refereeing decisions.
17:43 I think we'd all agree on that.
17:44 So I think it's brilliant for the game.
17:46 There's been a breath of fresh air at this World Cup.
17:48 I think arguably, actually, the best team
17:51 to watch outside, obviously, of the big guns has been Fiji.
17:54 They've been the story, haven't they?
17:56 We spoke last podcast about there hadn't really been
18:00 like a real intrigue and upset and/or story having emerged,
18:04 but I think Fiji are now the new story, really,
18:07 and the ones to watch,
18:08 a bit like Japan were at the last World Cup.
18:11 - Well, Scotland weren't playing at the weekend,
18:14 but obviously, well, the weekend and the week before,
18:17 but obviously their group opponents were.
18:19 Nothing really to report on the South Africa-Romania match,
18:22 as we expected.
18:23 Ireland-Tonga, it looked for a moment,
18:26 just a fleeting moment of hope from a Scottish perspective,
18:30 that even if they didn't win that game, Tonga,
18:34 which no one was backing them to,
18:35 maybe they could have just kept Ireland
18:38 below that try score and bonus point,
18:40 and then the magic just turned on
18:42 and Ireland had the bonus point
18:43 in the space of, what, 10 minutes?
18:45 And it was the game, set, and match.
18:47 I just, it's all, so much of Scotland's hopes
18:53 of getting out of this group now seem to hang on
18:57 this next match that they have no involvement in
19:00 between South Africa and Ireland,
19:03 because they, I almost don't know,
19:09 I don't know what the best outcome there is.
19:12 I feel like potentially it's South Africa beating Ireland
19:17 and Ireland not getting the bonus point,
19:19 but South Africa are on nine points at the moment,
19:22 Ireland's 10, so maybe it's Ireland beating them
19:24 without the bonus, but whatever happens,
19:27 they can't have the other team getting a losing bonus point,
19:31 and they certainly can't have them getting a losing
19:33 and try scoring bonus point,
19:35 'cause I think that's gonna be disastrous for them.
19:38 - I mean, what do you guys think?
19:40 I mean, Scotland, obviously, are just gonna focus
19:43 on their next two matches against Tonga and Romania.
19:45 Tonga are gonna give them a test.
19:47 Romania might give them something to think about briefly
19:51 based on what we've seen from them,
19:52 but I don't know, like, can you see any way
19:57 out of this group at this moment for Scotland?
20:00 - We always said it was the pool of death
20:04 and it's gonna come down to, you know,
20:05 a fag-pepper between them,
20:06 and I still think that last game,
20:10 the Ireland-Scotland game, is gonna be one hell of a game.
20:14 - Correct me, 'cause it's just occurred to me
20:18 that I'm not actually sure,
20:20 but if two teams finish on the same points,
20:23 what is the determining factor?
20:25 Is it head-to-head or is it try different points?
20:28 - Knowing World Rugby at the moment,
20:30 it would be rock, paper, scissors.
20:31 (laughing)
20:33 Yeah, I'm not quite sure.
20:35 You think it must be on try bonuses, I think,
20:38 and then maybe head-to-heads,
20:40 but I'm not quite sure which order it would go in.
20:43 - Well, obviously, Ireland have played
20:44 two more games at the moment,
20:45 but right now, Scotland have a points difference
20:47 of minus 15 and Ireland have a points difference of plus 117.
20:52 - Yeah.
20:53 - I wonder what the odds are
20:54 on a South Africa-Ireland bonus point draw,
20:57 double bonus point draw.
20:58 (laughing)
21:01 - Get down the bookies now.
21:02 - You just never know, do you?
21:04 - I suppose, from Scotland's point of view,
21:06 all they can do is go out,
21:08 play as best they can against the two
21:10 with the best in the world,
21:11 and we could see us try and get those points,
21:13 get those bonus points in the bank.
21:15 I think Tonga have been slightly disappointing for me.
21:18 I think everyone kind of built them up
21:19 as being almost kind of Fiji-like.
21:21 Those players that have come back
21:23 maybe didn't quite live up to the reputation
21:26 that we thought they might have done in the game so far,
21:29 and then, yeah, take your chances.
21:32 I suppose, for Scotland,
21:34 and it has always been the case of this,
21:36 they're just going to have to chance their arm
21:37 at some point, just press the button and see what happens,
21:39 and who knows, chucking it around,
21:42 maybe they can beat South Africa,
21:43 and what story that would be.
21:46 Maybe they can beat Ireland in that last game,
21:49 and I think that will be the game
21:50 that everybody will be watching,
21:51 is one hell of a game,
21:53 and hopefully a great advert
21:54 for the World Cup in general.
21:56 - Yeah, I'm pleased to say I'll be there in Paris
21:58 in the stad for that game.
22:00 I'm really looking forward to it.
22:01 Unfortunately, I'll have to miss our podcast that week,
22:03 but that might be for the best,
22:05 'cause I'm getting the feeling
22:06 I'm not going to be in the best mood anyway.
22:09 - Well, you never know, you say that.
22:11 - I drown my sorrow in wine and cheese, I suppose.
22:14 - There's worse excuses to miss a podcast, to be fair, Martin.
22:17 - Yeah. - I think that's legit.
22:19 That's, yeah, you've got your name on that.
22:22 - But yeah, it's hard to see from a Scotland point of view
22:26 at the moment, like, the route through.
22:28 Obviously, the need to get 10 points
22:29 from the Tonga and Romania matches,
22:31 and going into that Ireland game,
22:34 they're going to know what they need.
22:36 And hopefully it's as straightforward as just a win,
22:38 'cause if it's a win by a certain amount of points,
22:42 or a win with a bonus point or something like that,
22:44 it's just more pressure on them that they don't need.
22:48 - Having said all that, if you wanted to pick one team
22:50 that you said to Finn Russell, right,
22:52 last 20 minutes, go score me three tries.
22:55 He's the guy that you want to go and back to do it.
22:58 - He needs a big couple of games, Finn Russell, doesn't he?
23:00 He really does.
23:01 - Yeah, just go pure Finn saying on it.
23:05 (laughing)
23:08 Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?
23:11 There is just so much in that pool still
23:14 to kind of be decided.
23:15 And we haven't even spoken about Pool A,
23:18 but then again, what really was there to speak about
23:22 at the weekend?
23:23 Not a whole, well, actually, you know what?
23:25 I apologize for saying that.
23:27 Just briefly to end the show,
23:28 I think we can give Uruguay a lot of praise
23:30 for a very good performance against France.
23:33 You know, they looked very good in defeat.
23:35 And I think, listen, they'll give the All Blacks a game
23:39 based on that, and they'll probably run the Italians
23:42 quite close based on that, I would say,
23:43 although Italy themselves have looked good.
23:45 So I mean, there is still interest in that pool,
23:48 but we all thought it was just going to be France
23:50 and New Zealand walking out of it.
23:52 I mean, it probably still is.
23:53 I don't think anyone's changed their mind.
23:55 (gunshots)
23:58 (upbeat music)