Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by the Green Party leader of Folkestone and Hythe Council, Jim Martin, and the Conservative opposition leader at Medway Council, Adrian Gulvin.
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00 Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey. And it's been a week
00:24 of rack and ruin. Eight schools in Kent and Medway are on the government's list of 147
00:31 known to contain reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete. And it's not only schools. The Orchard
00:38 Theatre in Dartford has been forced to close and the question now is how many other buildings
00:42 are affected. Tonight we'll discuss how big this issue could become. But first, here's
00:48 Gabriel Morris with more.
00:50 The show must go on, an old saying amongst actors. But all performances at this theatre
00:56 in Dartford are suspended till October. A report on Monday found deterioration to potentially
01:02 dangerous concrete in the roof. The decision made over public safety by the building owners,
01:08 Dartford Borough Council. And at the closest pub to the theatre, they don't dispute the
01:12 safety but are worried for how long this might go on for.
01:17 This is where it should have been expected to be a good month. It's now, especially with
01:21 everything else, with the cost of living crisis and all the expensive electricity and the
01:26 gas, it's going to be a hard month. I mean, I'm worried. Because this may be the final
01:33 nail in the coffin as to whether we keep going or not.
01:35 Do you think that's a real possibility?
01:37 Yes. It is a real possibility.
01:41 The council say the building has been regularly inspected and they say they will support local
01:46 businesses doubling their efforts.
01:48 It could stretch longer and it could stretch further than October. I mean, the gap we have
01:52 at the moment is actually to allow the consultants to do further investigations and be more invasive
01:57 and get into the building and into the roof a little more. It's not the end of it. What
02:00 they've got to do is actually then come up with a formulated solution to us and that
02:04 solution could be partial repairs or it could be removing the whole roof. And clearly, if
02:08 we have to remove the whole roof. And I frankly, I think that could be a very big possibility.
02:13 The Orchard Theatre says any ticket order for this month will be contacted and their
02:17 money is safe.
02:19 Tonight, country superstars were set to take to the stage.
02:23 Well, it was very disappointing. We had over 600 people booked and all these people were
02:28 disappointed, the staff at the theatre.
02:31 But on a positive, we've had the theatre manager come up to us today and say that they are
02:35 going to definitely get us back as soon as possible.
02:38 The consensus is the right decision has been made.
02:41 It's a huge blow for the local community, for the theatre to have to shut, but it's
02:45 absolutely the right decision that it does shut. Safety of the public always must come
02:50 first. And what's important now is that we have a full investigation into the circumstances.
02:56 But this type of concrete was popular during the 50s to 80s, a cheap, lightweight material.
03:03 And there is concern to where else RAC might be.
03:06 I think we are talking hundreds and I think the onus is on the government now to deal
03:13 with that as quick as possible because it's public safety. Public safety is absolute number
03:18 one. You can't have a public building, well, you can't have any building where there's
03:23 a risk of collapse.
03:24 That's what happened at Singlewell Primary in 2018. Thankfully, on a weekend, the room
03:30 empty.
03:32 Now, the Orchard Theatre might have been the first non-school building to be found with
03:37 RAC, but it's thought it might be in many more across Kent. Pressure is now building
03:44 on local councils to investigate and find out the scale of this issue.
03:50 Gabriel Morris for KMTV, Dartford.
03:53 Joining me tonight is the leader of Folkestone and Hythe Council, Jim Martin of the Green
03:57 Party and Conservative Adrian Goulvin, who is opposition leader at Medway Council.
04:02 Welcome both of you. Thank you for joining us.
04:05 Opposition leader at the moment, but obviously changed power very recently.
04:09 So you were part of a cabinet when all of this really began.
04:12 The first incident was 2018 in Singlewell in Gravesend and Kent really has been at the
04:17 forefront of this issue ever since.
04:19 And I just wondered, from your recollection, what happened at Medway Council, which obviously
04:23 runs schools here, about surveying and identifying where the problems were.
04:28 How quickly did you start to respond to that?
04:31 Well, you've got to remember for a start that most of the schools now, Rob, aren't under
04:37 the council's control.
04:38 They're academies and they belong to academy trusts.
04:44 Like most upper tier local authorities, Medway has a building maintenance team, they've got
04:49 qualified men and women very good at doing that sort of thing.
04:53 So we could react quickly.
04:57 Whether the academy trusts have that in-house ability to get the buildings surveyed quickly
05:04 is another thing altogether.
05:07 But yes, upper tier authorities like Kent and Medway have teams that can do it.
05:12 Did you know that?
05:14 Holcombe is the only one.
05:17 Did you know before this week that RAC was present in that school?
05:20 I didn't personally know, but when it was talked about, I was given the impression it
05:27 wasn't a significant issue among Medway's buildings.
05:32 We do have issues of a slightly different type, like the Brook multi-storey car park,
05:37 the concrete structure, and that is deteriorating.
05:41 And unfortunately, failures of concrete is nothing new.
05:45 I remember when I was a councillor back in the 1980s, we had a problem with the PRC,
05:51 the Precast Reinforced Concrete houses that were built in the building boom after the
05:57 war to build social housing quickly.
06:00 They were concrete framed and concrete cladded.
06:03 And the houses literally had to be rebuilt.
06:06 And we had a number of those out at Hoo and also in Rochester.
06:11 And literally the whole house had to be rebuilt.
06:14 So problems with concrete is nothing new, I'm afraid.
06:17 Jim, I'll bring you in.
06:19 Obviously, you're down in Folkestone and Hythe.
06:21 You're not an authority that is directly responsible for the fabric of schools.
06:25 But you've had a school in your area that was closed this week.
06:28 How well handled do you think this has been in terms of the school closures coming so
06:34 suddenly just as term started?
06:36 Yeah, I mean, thanks very much.
06:39 The problems associated with RAC have been known for many years.
06:45 I'm not entirely sure why it's come so much to the forefront so suddenly.
06:55 There's been lots of research.
06:56 It's a well-known concrete failure in this type of concrete.
07:01 Now, you know, your piece on the Orchard Theatre is very, very good because it's the roof.
07:09 Now, this type of concrete was particularly well used in terms of forming roofs on large
07:18 buildings or buildings that you needed an open span, like a theatre or like an assembly
07:25 hall in a school.
07:28 It was lightweight because they blew bubbles into the concrete and aerated it.
07:34 The difficulty is, is if the roof covering, the waterproof covering, fails on the concrete,
07:42 water gets into the fabric of the concrete and pockets in these air bubbles.
07:48 What this does then is it causes rust to the reinforcing bar that runs through the concrete.
07:55 That turns, it rusts the reinforcing bar and because it rusts, it starts to expand and
08:03 that forces large flakes off of the concrete.
08:06 Now, when I say large flakes, I'm not talking about snowflakes.
08:11 These could be, you know, four foot, six foot, ten foot, whatever, and not the sort of thing
08:16 you want falling on children.
08:18 So it's a problem that's been around for quite a while.
08:22 It's been well known.
08:23 I'm not entirely sure why it's become so prevalent in the last few weeks.
08:29 Adrian, so far, most of this has been about schools and we know that there's obviously
08:33 been an awful lot of activity around that.
08:36 But what Jim's just said there kind of hints at where this might go next, doesn't it?
08:40 Because there is now the widespread expectation that we're going to be talking about racking
08:44 hospitals and university buildings.
08:46 And here in Medway, I've had several people this week refer to Chatham as a bit of a concrete
08:51 jungle to me.
08:52 There's a lot of that kind of architecture here.
08:54 How widespread do you think this problem could be?
08:56 It could be very, but as Jim said, this is a specific type of concrete that was very,
09:02 very lightweight.
09:04 My understanding is the majority of the buildings in Chatham, like the Pentagon Centre or Mount
09:10 Batten House, were a different type.
09:12 I've actually got on my desk at Gunnwall a piece, a sample of the concrete that was taken
09:17 out of Mount Batten House a year ago to test the concrete.
09:22 And in that case...
09:23 Do you think testing is going to be...
09:25 Yes, I think testing is very important.
09:26 Do you think now, I mean, Gunnwall, do you expect surveyors to be coming in and looking
09:30 at buildings like that with urgency?
09:33 Well, I think you need to go back to the plans, first of all, for each building and see what
09:38 the construction materials are.
09:40 But I think for schools, it had to be the priority.
09:44 When you do a risk assessment on these things, you've got to get the probability of level
09:51 of risk.
09:53 This is a classic one where the probability of the event happening is very, very small,
10:00 almost infinitesimally small.
10:03 But the consequences when it does happen are absolutely catastrophic.
10:08 You know, to have a child killed or badly injured by it.
10:12 So that puts it immediately back up into the...
10:16 It's got to be dealt with straightaway.
10:18 Although the chances of it happening are absolutely tiny.
10:22 But because of that, particularly with children, you just can't take that risk.
10:26 I think there have been one or two incidents over the last few weeks abroad, which may
10:31 explain why this is suddenly...
10:34 The political communication is quite interesting around that, isn't it?
10:36 Because we've seen Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary, sending out tweets this week saying,
10:41 well, most schools aren't effective.
10:43 How have you felt about the communication around this, Jim?
10:46 Well, Adrian, you know, Adrian's absolutely right on this.
10:52 And it's...
10:53 This, you know, there are many different types of concrete.
10:58 This is a very, very specific type of concrete, which is a very, very, very good material.
11:04 Now, the reason that this is happening is because of the failure in the waterproofing.
11:10 So it's the, if you like, it's the bitumen that goes over the top of it or the felt that
11:14 goes over the top of it.
11:16 And the first thing that sprung to my mind when all of these incidents were being related
11:22 was that this is a failure to maintain those roofs.
11:27 We'll have to just stop you there.
11:29 I'm very sorry.
11:30 We've got to go to the ad break.
11:31 But when we come back, we'll be looking at how some of Kent's newly elected councils
11:35 are grappling with government housing targets.
11:38 And a Eurostar chief says he can't afford to bring international train services back
11:42 to Kent.
11:43 Stay with us.
11:43 [MUSIC PLAYING]
11:49 [MUSIC PLAYING]
11:55 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:01 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:07 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:13 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:19 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:25 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:31 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:37 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:43 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:49 [MUSIC PLAYING]
12:55 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:01 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:07 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:13 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:19 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:25 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:31 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:37 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:43 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:49 [MUSIC PLAYING]
13:55 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:01 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:07 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:13 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:19 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:25 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:31 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:37 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:43 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:49 [MUSIC PLAYING]
14:55 [MUSIC PLAYING]
15:01 [MUSIC PLAYING]
15:05 Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:09 Next tonight, how would you find space for 28,000 new homes in Medway?
15:14 That's the government target by 2040, and a public consultation will begin soon to identify where they should go.
15:21 It will trigger some old arguments over the future of beauty spots like the Capstone Valley and Chatham's Docks.
15:27 Here's Gabriel Morris with more.
15:29 Medway's population growing.
15:31 Currently, more than a quarter of a million people live in Medway.
15:35 There's a need for more homes in line with government quotas.
15:39 That's around 28,000 more homes by 2040, according to Medway Council.
15:45 Why the consultation is so important because we have to bring together the evidence to say how many homes we think we can cope with and where they're going to be.
15:54 And we depend on landowners, on developers, on ordinary people who've got ideas about this to come forward.
16:01 And if we find that we're not going to be able to deliver that target,
16:04 then we have to have a strong evidence base to take to the planning inspector to say why.
16:09 Medway Labour took control of the council in May.
16:13 They're now looking to bring the first local plan since 2003.
16:17 The previous Conservative-run administration tried to bring one in,
16:21 but their members were divided over certain issues, such as a dockyard development.
16:27 A lot of us, like myself, felt that whilst the jobs in the docks are important, there are bigger factors to play.
16:36 And unfortunately, coastal shipping is a demise.
16:40 If we'd been stood by this river 20 or 30 years ago, it would have been full of coastal vessels.
16:46 That trade has almost died up.
16:48 Peter's lived in Chatham for more than 70 years.
16:51 He says he's now starting to feel priced out.
16:54 I've got a small one-bedroom flat. I'm a 70-year-old and I'm on £700 a month.
16:59 I have to put £200 of that out of my pension because the council can't afford to pay all that either.
17:06 So that's a bit sad. They need to stop these rents going up.
17:10 It's full up. People coming from London, people coming from everywhere. It's only a small town.
17:15 But some would argue further development would reduce demand, possibly slowing rental rises.
17:22 The local plan will also look at retail regeneration.
17:25 Here on Chatham High Street, there are a number of empty premises.
17:29 Locals here tell me they are concerned that that number is only rising.
17:33 Also exploring communities, environment and employment.
17:38 With a consultation due to open in mid-September, closing at the end of the next month.
17:43 With a draft plan expected for spring next year.
17:47 From there on it is speculation that a plan might be in place by 2025.
17:53 But what we do know, if the local plan goes ahead, it might give the green light for further greenfield development.
18:00 Which is a contentious issue.
18:02 Gabriel Morris for KMTV in Medway.
18:05 Well still with me is Conservative Adrian Golvin, the opposition leader at Medway Council
18:10 and Folkestone and Hyde Council leader Jim Martin of the Green Party.
18:14 Adrian this will be a very familiar debate to you.
18:17 Because the last time Medway tried to get a local plan in place, it was the docks that really was the sticking point.
18:23 Wasn't it? And the council wrestling over whether or not the future was the docks remaining open.
18:29 Or whether it being used for housing.
18:31 It was a very emotive argument, I must admit.
18:34 And I was very torn on it personally.
18:36 My heart, because I've spent my whole working life in the shipping industry.
18:40 Was telling me, you know, support shipping.
18:44 But my head was telling me something completely different in that coastal shipping has almost died out.
18:51 And we've got to remember that Chatham Docks was not built as a commercial place for cargo shipping.
19:02 It was a ship repair basin as part of a naval dockyard.
19:06 That trade and those type of businesses only came there after the dockyard closed.
19:13 And I personally felt on balance that it was a finally balanced thing.
19:20 It would have been better to convert that to housing.
19:25 That was the position of the then leader Alan Jarrett, wasn't it?
19:27 And he always said, he said on this show a few times, that he felt betrayed by his backbenchers
19:31 who voted with their hearts rather than their heads.
19:33 How does Vince Maple avoid a similar situation developing and being a problem again?
19:37 Well, with great difficulty, because I believe he went on the record at the time of saying he wanted to defend the dock.
19:44 It's crucial to Medway's economy that Chatham Docks remains a commercial port.
19:47 There's no doubt we need to tackle the housing crisis, but not at the expense of 800 skilled jobs, he said two years ago.
19:53 Yes. Well, he's got to wrestle with that one.
19:56 I personally, providing we can be assured that the majority of those firms can find good quality premises reasonably distanced from us here in Medway,
20:09 so the present workers can travel okay, I think it would be best to redevelop the site.
20:15 If one goes up to Sawford and sees what Peel have done there with a very, very similar area, redundant docks,
20:26 the quality of that development has been absolutely superb.
20:30 And I went up there to have a look at it a few years ago and went away feeling, well, if we can have a bit of this here in Medway, that can't be a bad thing.
20:38 I want to come to Jim in just a moment.
20:39 But just while you're saying that, you would think that that's probably on balance the best thing.
20:43 1,440 jobs linked to either the docks or the supply chain that the dock serves, £150 million to the Medway economy every year.
20:52 It's not going to be easy to say goodbye to, is it?
20:54 I think some of those figures have been slightly exaggerated, to be perfectly frank with you.
20:58 And Peel have certainly said that the number of people that are booked to go in and out through the gate don't tally with that sort of figure.
21:10 Yes, we still need those sort of industries, but providing they can stay in Kent, there's a lot of space out at the Isle of Grain,
21:19 there's space at Queenborough and other places that have got water access.
21:26 But I think Medway's changed.
21:30 We're no longer a heavy industry, metal bashing type place.
21:36 At that point, I'll bring Jim in.
21:38 Jim, you're in slightly the opposite situation.
21:40 Labour here having to push forward a local plan where they've been on the record opposing some of the things they now have to consider.
21:47 You're in the position of adopting a local plan and inheriting one from a Conservative administration.
21:52 But some of the things in that were quite difficult for you at the time, weren't they?
21:55 Particularly the Otterpool garden town, which the Green Party a few years ago was saying that if you felt that you'd had any luck in opposing it, then you would have done.
22:05 It's now your responsibility to see that through.
22:08 How is that going and how are you changing?
22:11 How are you able to influence those things in that local plan?
22:16 Well, you put your finger right on it. I have to declare here that in the last administration, I was part of the planning committee.
22:29 And when Otterpool Park came to planning, I voted against it.
22:34 And then as a cruel, ironic twist of fate, I am now the person that's charged with delivering it.
22:41 So, you know, if it proves one thing, it proves that God has got a sense of humour.
22:48 So we we I now have to deliver Otterpool Park, which is a very, very, very big, very.
22:57 The programme is very, very long and will involve a great deal of building, a great deal of activity.
23:07 But for us, we although our whole district, we we are kind of captured into a development corridor.
23:19 The northern part of the district is the area of outstanding natural beauty, which which it is.
23:26 You can't build there. And to the south is the Romney Marsh, which is affected by flooding.
23:32 So we we we've we've just got this this kind of narrow corridor around the M20.
23:39 Now, the advantages of Otterpool is that we're building on a motorway junction and we've already got a railway station.
23:49 So, you know, if you're going to if you're going to build a garden town, this is the place to build it.
23:55 Our concerns were, you know, in terms of the detail, but primarily around net zero.
24:04 And while the planning application went a long way, we felt it didn't go far enough.
24:11 So my number one objective is to make Otterpool Park a net zero development.
24:18 And in terms of kind of tangible kind of things, what does that mean for it?
24:22 It's 8500 homes plus commercial and business kind of development as well.
24:27 What kind of things do you think you can add to that scheme that will make it more workable from your point of view?
24:33 Well, first and foremost, we're not in cloud cuckoo land here.
24:37 A number of the developers who are our prospective partners on Otterpool Park have come to me to say that they can deliver net zero construction.
24:51 So so there's the emphasis is on the fabric so that the buildings retain their energy.
24:58 That's that's that's the important part. Photovoltaics, that sort of thing adds to that.
25:05 But but it's a fabric first approach in terms of the biodiversity.
25:13 We've got a massive increase in biodiversity because of the swales and ponds that we're introducing at the moment.
25:24 What we've got is a redundant race course and five farms that are predominantly grass.
25:32 And the farmers that have been farming it have been have been grazing cattle on there for years.
25:39 And all they've wanted is grass. Once we are able to introduce a much greater variety of of plants, of flora, of fauna and introduce watercourses,
25:52 the biodiversity will increase massively.
25:57 Just very, very quickly, Jim, as we come towards the end, Eurostar this week said that they can't see services returning to Kent before 2025.
26:05 How much of a disappointment is that for Folkestone?
26:08 Well, it's shocking. It really, really is this. This really, you know, the whole Eurostar thing,
26:16 there are businesses built around Eurostar stopping at Ashford. You know, there is a there is a whole a whole set of businesses that most of whom now are, you know, either gone or gone.
26:29 It's just absolutely shocking. I'm very, very sorry. We only had a very, very small amount of time.
26:33 That's all we've got time for here at the Politics Show. Thanks to both of my guests tonight for taking the time.
26:38 We'll be back soon. Stay with us because Kentonite is coming up with all of the top news from around the county.
26:43 Have a great evening. Good night.
26:46 [MUSIC]
26:56 [MUSIC]
27:06 [MUSIC]
27:16 [MUSIC]