This week Chris Deacy is joined by Mark Stay to discuss the films; Jaws, Time Bandits, Blade Runner, and Life is Sweet.
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00:00 [Music]
00:12 Hello and welcome to Kent Film Club.
00:14 I'm Chris Deasy and each week I'll be joined by a guest from Kent
00:17 to dive deep into the impact certain films have had on their life.
00:21 Each guest will reflect on the films which have meant the most to them over the years.
00:26 And every week there will be a Kent Film Trivia where we quiz you at home
00:30 about a film that has a connection to the county.
00:33 And now let me introduce you to my guest for this week.
00:36 He is a screenwriter and has written the five book World War II Kent set fantasy series
00:42 Witches of Woodville.
00:44 His most recent film feature was the folk horror movie Unwelcome,
00:47 which was on general release from Warner Brothers at the start of 2023.
00:52 He is Mark Stay. Good to meet you Mark.
00:54 Good to see you Chris. How are you?
00:56 I'm absolutely fine and really looking forward to talking about films
00:58 as of course you are a filmmaker and to see what some of those influences might be.
01:02 And we start with Jaws. What made you choose Jaws?
01:06 Well it was tough because I would come home from school.
01:10 My parents were school caretakers so the walk home from school was very short
01:14 and I would pick one of the Holy Trinity to watch on VHS.
01:18 My dad was an early adopter of all tech and VHS
01:20 and I was the only person who knew how to programme the 14 day timer.
01:23 And I would watch either Star Wars, Jaws or Raiders of the Lost Ark,
01:26 all of which I'd taped off the TV.
01:28 Star Wars should be here but I can't watch it in its original form anymore.
01:33 And Jaws is the one I probably come back to more than ever
01:36 and it's the film that my son and I quote constantly.
01:40 And I just think in terms of character and themes in it, it's just the richest film.
01:46 And the fact that this came out of complete chaos,
01:50 the filming of this was a nightmare, Paul Spielberg, it ran over budget.
01:54 But the actors and the writers, Carl Gottlieb and other writers came in
02:00 and they used all that downtime to workshop the characters
02:03 and to turn what could have been a fairly schlocky movie
02:07 into just a masterpiece, an absolute masterpiece.
02:10 Because some of them didn't get on, did they, at all?
02:12 There was a famous rivalry between the actors.
02:15 Yeah, Richard Dreyfuss and Robert Shaw.
02:17 My son and I went to see the play The Shark Is Broken in the West End
02:20 where Robert Shaw's son is playing his father.
02:23 It's terrific, it's really, really good.
02:25 And the legacy of this film keeps coming back.
02:28 When I was ten years old I remember saying to friends,
02:32 "I knew it so well, I was like, 'We could remake it.
02:35 "We get Papier-Mâché shark, go to Brighton Beach and remake it'
02:38 "which never got round to due to lack of a camera and talent and money
02:43 "and all those other things."
02:45 The Roy Scheider character, there's something very everyman about him
02:48 in that sense because he has this fear of the water
02:51 but there's almost a sense in which because these other deaths have occurred,
02:55 there's a sense in which he's on this journey
02:57 and he does something that's completely against his nature.
03:00 He goes out onto the water with these quite tempestuous figures
03:04 but it's almost like he's seeking some sort of penance for what's happened.
03:08 Absolutely. All three of those are about those three men confronting their fears,
03:12 confronting something in the ocean, something unknowable.
03:16 And the shark was constantly broken, it did constantly break down,
03:21 so you didn't see it, so it became even more unknowable.
03:25 Spielberg has gone on record saying that he regrets it gave sharks a bad image
03:29 for many years but in some ways the shark represents death, the unknown,
03:35 something beyond our understanding.
03:38 And it's, again, I just come back to it again and again and again.
03:41 I see something new every time.
03:43 Have you seen it on the big screen?
03:45 Yes, I have. I've seen it with an orchestra as well at the Royal Albert Hall
03:49 which, again, the score is magnificent.
03:52 It's John Williams at his absolute peak.
03:54 So, yes, it's very rewarding on the big screen.
03:57 And I saw it in 3D, I think maybe even more than once.
04:01 And I have mixed feelings about a 4DX or 3D type experience.
04:06 It depends, I suppose, on the film and the audience that you're with.
04:10 Everyone knows the shark is a bit rubbish and rubbery,
04:13 but that doesn't matter because the characters are so compelling
04:18 and the drama and the pacing of it, it's so beautifully crafted.
04:23 Spielberg obviously went on to make some incredibly, very impressive films
04:28 and well-known, but this was the one, apart from a Columbo episode,
04:31 which I thought was rather magnificent in the early '70s,
04:33 but "Jaws" is the thing that really made his name.
04:36 But what is it that has allowed us all these years later
04:39 when special effects have improved in so many ways,
04:42 but what is it about "Jaws" that makes it such a sublime,
04:46 the sort of film that people will always want to return to?
04:49 It's character. Character, great dialogue, compelling story.
04:53 For me, story, when I write a story,
04:56 I'm very big on the central dramatic argument, a solid theme
04:59 and a journey of change for the characters.
05:02 Entire essays and books have been written about these characters
05:06 and it does have that everyman aspect.
05:09 If we're not afraid of swimming in the water, we are afraid of the unknown,
05:12 we're afraid of some force of nature that could take everything away from us.
05:17 So I think that's why it is such a timeless film in many ways.
05:24 There were terrible sequels and there have been attempts to make other shark movies,
05:28 but this is the "er" shark movie.
05:31 And the famous "Jaws", was it Michael Caine who didn't go to the Oscars
05:35 when he won for "Hannah and her Sisters" because he was making "Jaws" for the revenge?
05:39 Has it had a real impact on your own writing?
05:42 Obviously you work with film, you're a screenwriter, you're a novelist,
05:46 but is "Jaws" something that really is important to you?
05:50 The dialogue in this just flows beautifully and it's such a quotable movie.
05:57 I've always been trying to capture that kind of conversational thing in my stuff.
06:01 And again that has come out of workshopping with the actors.
06:07 There are a lot of locals as well who would put in local dialects and what have you.
06:12 So before I was a writer I wanted to be an actor and I did a lot of acting
06:17 and I directed shows and wrote plays and that sort of thing.
06:20 And that idea of workshopping with the actors, let them take ownership of it
06:24 and take the dialogue that's on the page and just loosen it up a bit,
06:28 that is always rewarding.
06:30 And then that's something I've tried to apply to my fiction as well.
06:34 I write in the vernacular.
06:38 It can wind up my copy editor a few times but she's got used to me.
06:42 I may even ask you similar questions with the remainder of your choices.
06:47 We're going to move on to your second chosen film which is "Time Bandits".
06:51 I'm a huge Monty Python fan.
06:53 This could have been four Spielberg films, it could have been four Monty Python films.
06:57 But "Time Bandits", I mean Kevin, the hero of "Time Bandits"
07:01 was the most relatable character in cinema for me.
07:04 This 10, 11-year-old boy who was always daydreaming of being somewhere else,
07:08 who read about all the horrible history facts,
07:11 the ways that Spartans could kill each other and that sort of thing,
07:14 to bewildered parents, that was me.
07:16 And so this fantasy that one day these magical people could come through
07:22 your bedroom cupboard and travel through time and have adventures
07:26 was just absolute magic.
07:28 I watched it just the other day and it hasn't lost any...
07:31 I mean that Terry Gilliam kind of thing of handmade films,
07:34 that's what the film company is named, it has that texture to it
07:38 that again a lot of those effects have held up really, really well.
07:42 And then he brings on, as I understand it, he wrote the outline,
07:45 he brings on Michael Palin to basically zhuzh it up
07:48 and put some life into the characters.
07:51 And Palin is a fantastic writer, I think much underrated,
07:55 sort of overshadowed maybe by Cleese and what have you.
07:57 But if you read his novels you see he's also a terrific author.
08:00 And the characters in this again are just so memorable.
08:04 David Warner as evil is just sublime.
08:08 So as a young boy in an era where...
08:12 I mean I loved all those Amblin films, I loved E.T. and all the Goonies
08:16 and all those kind of... those were great but they were always Americans.
08:20 And here we've got this kid who lives in a semi-detached house like I did
08:24 and his parents and everyone he knows are a bit like people that I know.
08:28 So I found him incredibly relatable.
08:31 And when we came to make Robot Overlords with John Wright, the director,
08:35 it was that kind of... we wanted to take the Amblin movie
08:38 but put in my kids who were 10 and 11 at the time
08:42 and put them in a widescreen adventure in much the same way
08:45 Terry Gilliam had done with Time Bandits.
08:47 Yeah, but one of the films that I saw,
08:49 maybe even the first film of Terry Gilliam's I saw at the cinema
08:52 was 12 Monkeys, a completely different genre.
08:54 But the use of the surreal, the imaginative in a context
08:57 that we both understand and relate to but also completely don't relate to.
09:01 And it's that weird juxtaposition I think that really works in Time Bandits.
09:05 And David Warner as well, what a fantastic actor.
09:08 I always think of him in time after time.
09:10 But he exudes sort of gravitas.
09:12 But is there a particular moment, a particular scene of this film
09:15 that stands out for you?
09:17 It's probably... oh gosh, there are so many.
09:20 It's probably the ending, which is so dark.
09:23 Again, I was watching it the other day with my son.
09:25 He's like, "You can never get away with that now."
09:27 Where the parents are blown up, you know, and that's how it's left.
09:31 And they're talking about a TV series.
09:33 I hope it doesn't happen, but anyway, we'll see.
09:35 But yeah, it's when you're a kid and you see that ending.
09:40 But then my generation, we grew up with nuclear war,
09:43 Roald Dahl stories, all sorts of strange twisted stuff,
09:47 public information films where kids were bumped off on a regular basis.
09:50 So it's kind of par for the course.
09:52 So yeah, I think that shock ending was a real mind-blower.
09:57 And do you see the film differently now?
09:59 So maybe if you watch it with your own children.
10:01 Is it the sort of film that's timeless?
10:03 Or do you watch it and think, gosh, you see it in a completely different light
10:06 all these decades on?
10:07 It takes me back to being a ten-year-old.
10:09 It has that... but I did know it the other day.
10:11 I was watching it because these parents, they're watching TV
10:14 and they're desperate for a new fitted kitchen.
10:16 It's the greatest object in the universe at the end.
10:18 I was watching that and my wife and I do need a fitted kitchen.
10:21 So I was thinking, yeah, I'm with these parents now.
10:23 This is terrible.
10:24 And is it one of those sort of films that really...
10:28 It's like music as well.
10:29 Growing up with music, it's almost sort of impossible to say it's awful
10:33 because if it's part of your DNA, it's almost like quality proof.
10:37 And I wonder if a film like Time Bandits,
10:39 maybe if somebody watched it now, maybe for the first time,
10:43 they might think, what is this all about?
10:45 Has it fitted a particular texture or mood in the past?
10:49 I think the next film we're going to talk about, you might have a point,
10:52 this one I think has a timeless kind of quality to it
10:56 and I think there aren't enough movies like this made for children these days.
11:00 There's Marvel movies and what have you
11:02 and there's big screen, wide screen adventures.
11:04 But they tend to be made for 25-year-olds who collect comics
11:08 whereas this was made for ten-year-olds
11:10 and it's what we did with Robot Overlords.
11:12 And I remember going to screenings of it
11:15 where we had ten, eleven-year-old kids who came out just like...
11:18 You know, we made a film for them and it's very unusual.
11:22 I can't wait to show this to my children at some point.
11:24 We'll see, we'll see. I'll let you know.
11:26 All right, well that's just about all the time that we have now
11:29 for the first half of the show.
11:31 However, before we go to the break,
11:33 we have a Kent film trivia question for you at home.
11:36 Which 1944 film recreated the Canterbury Cathedral
11:40 due to being denied permission to film in it?
11:43 Was it A) The Canterbury Tales,
11:46 B) Canterbury Tales,
11:48 or C) A Canterbury Tale?
11:50 We'll reveal the answer right after this break.
11:53 Don't go away.
11:54 [Theme Music]
12:03 Hello and welcome back to Kent Film Club.
12:06 Now just before that ad break,
12:08 we asked you at home a Kent film trivia question.
12:11 Which 1944 film recreated the Canterbury Cathedral
12:15 due to being denied permission to film in it?
12:18 I asked, was it A) The Canterbury Tales,
12:21 B) Canterbury Tales,
12:23 or C) A Canterbury Tale?
12:26 And now I can reveal to you that the answer was in fact
12:29 C) A Canterbury Tale.
12:31 The film crew recreated the interior of the cathedral
12:35 in Denham Studio.
12:37 It has been rumoured that they recreated it so well
12:41 that cathedral guides have been heard telling people
12:44 that the film was shot in there.
12:46 Did you get the answer right?
12:48 Well, I think it's time now to move on to your next chosen film, Mark.
12:51 And you've chosen Blade Runner.
12:53 Why Blade Runner?
12:55 I've gone on a journey with this one.
12:57 And we talked about films that perhaps newer generations
13:00 might be a bit baffled by.
13:02 But I first saw this at a friend's 11th or 12th birthday party.
13:06 And we had the old Warner Brothers sort of puffy VHS case.
13:09 And from the artwork there we were thinking,
13:11 "Wow, this is going to be Indiana Jones in space.
13:13 "There's Harrison Ford, he's got a gun, there are androids.
13:16 "Bring it on."
13:17 What we didn't expect was this deep dive into existentialism
13:20 from Ridley Scott via Philip K. Dick.
13:23 And I remember most of the kids came away going, "Oh, that's boring."
13:26 But there were a couple of us who were going,
13:28 "I don't understand that, but that was really cool."
13:32 And I've gone on a journey with this one.
13:34 The Marvel comic strip adaptation came out.
13:37 And then I went and read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
13:40 And then when I was 18 they released the director's cut.
13:43 I remember making a pilgrimage up to London to see it on the big screen.
13:46 And I've also worked for the publisher that publishes the book
13:49 and has the making of books, and then there's the final cut.
13:52 So I've gone on a journey with this film and I've grown with it.
13:55 Of its time, massively, massively influential.
13:59 Perhaps too influential, and every science fiction movie
14:02 after this looked like it, but I love it.
14:05 Yeah, but also of course there are so many cuts.
14:08 I've seen subsequent editions of this that Ridley Scott has put out.
14:12 So it's a film that almost seems to be--
14:15 there's something, the kernel of this film,
14:18 that can be reused in other contexts, and it seems to speak to each generation.
14:22 But also, am I right in thinking that it came out on the same weekend as E.T.
14:26 and was almost like--at the time in 1982, it wasn't really noticed.
14:31 And then it became this great cult hit within a few years.
14:34 I don't know, that might have been the thing. '82 was a fantastic year.
14:37 But yeah, it was a flop on its initial release.
14:39 And like I say, we saw it on VHS, which must have been a year or so later.
14:43 Of course, VHS, it wouldn't have been letterboxed, it would have been cropped,
14:46 and it would have been too dark, and you're peering at it.
14:49 And again, this film has just revealed itself more and more over the years.
14:52 But it's the definition of a cult movie.
14:55 The other film I could have picked for the same slot was The Shining.
14:58 In the same way, a film that I just keep coming back to again and again and again,
15:03 which I love, and it has this inscrutability,
15:06 where even the director and the star can't agree on what they were shooting,
15:10 which seems kind of crazy.
15:13 But there is another link, isn't there, between Blade Runner and The Shining?
15:16 Because the opening shot--it borrows--
15:19 because I saw The Shining on the big screen with a very large audience of young people.
15:24 Very interesting, because obviously it was made over 40 years ago.
15:27 But yeah, so there is a link.
15:29 The ending of Blade Runner, the original ending, the happy ending,
15:32 where they drive off into the sunset, uses unused footage from the opening of The Shining.
15:37 So Kubrick did Ridley a favor there.
15:39 It doesn't work.
15:41 Have you seen this on multiple formats?
15:43 Multiple formats, multiple screens.
15:45 Which is the best one?
15:46 Weirdly, I'm coming back to the original again and again,
15:49 because I actually quite like the voiceover.
15:51 I know it's got a bad rap, but there's something about that original that I quite--
15:55 even though the ending makes not one iota of sense,
15:58 but I do keep coming back to it.
16:00 But again, who knows?
16:02 Once you've solved the puzzle, you have to put the puzzle to one side.
16:06 And I will dig so deep, but I'm happy just to enjoy it at face value now.
16:10 Yeah, and that's why a film like this can work,
16:12 because visually it's very expressionistic,
16:15 but also there are so many different readings.
16:18 The thing that I remember watching it on a very small screen back in probably the mid-'90s,
16:23 and then the question was always, "Is Harrison Ford's character a replica?"
16:28 And of course you can watch the film a hundred times
16:31 and you will come to a different-- possibly a different--
16:34 Ridley says yes, Harrison says no.
16:36 Although I've heard recently Harrison changed his mind, so--
16:39 Well, maybe he didn't know.
16:42 Maybe his whole humanity has been worn away
16:47 as he's become synonymous with this creation.
16:51 Do you associate it with a really particular time in your life?
16:54 Because you mentioned this was an age of a burgeoning VHS,
16:58 but is it very much of that time?
17:00 Do you watch this film? Does it evoke your childhood?
17:03 Yeah, it was a period when I was reading a lot
17:06 and it really got me into science fiction.
17:08 And I was kind of, "Oh, there is more to science fiction than Star Wars."
17:11 There is this thought-provoking science fiction
17:14 that addresses the here and now and ideas and things that we're tackling with now,
17:18 and eternal ideas, ideas about self-identity and what have you.
17:21 I started reading some quite heavy-duty SF after that.
17:25 And I think one of the reasons I like it--
17:27 It introduced me to Philip K. Dick,
17:29 and once you start reading his stuff, there's no going back.
17:32 Would you say this has been influential anyway on your own writing or filmmaking?
17:36 Is this a film that in some way you're very aware that this is seminal?
17:41 I don't think it's influenced my writing specifically.
17:44 It's one of these ones I will put up on a pedestal and think,
17:47 "That's how it's done. This is top of the heap kind of stuff."
17:52 Although sometimes when John and I are writing and we have a big speech,
17:59 he will say, "Do a Rutger Hauer speech."
18:02 [laughter]
18:04 "Do the 'Tears in the Rain' speech."
18:06 So we've written something quite recently where we've said,
18:09 "Yeah, we'll do a 'Tears in the Rain' kind of speech."
18:11 I have no idea.
18:12 How many times would you say that you've watched this over the years?
18:15 All of these. Probably 100-plus times, which sounds crazy.
18:21 But instead of doing my homework, I would come home and watch a movie.
18:25 We're going to turn now to a very different sort of genre
18:28 because you've chosen a Mike Leaf film, 'Life is Sweet'.
18:32 This was just a revelation to me.
18:35 There was a moment in this where Alison Stedman is arguing with Jane Horrocks
18:40 and she says something about, "Have you seen my cotton warbles?"
18:43 I was sitting up and calling my mum and my sister down.
18:46 I was still at home, calling my mum and my sister down.
18:48 I said, "There are people that talk like us on the telly!"
18:50 I know Mike Lea gets a lot of flack from people.
18:52 People go, "Oh, it's patronising the working classes."
18:54 But having come from a working-class background,
18:56 it's just nice to see a family that speaks like my family
18:59 and it's not all doom and gloom and misery.
19:02 Because so often, films about working-class families,
19:05 it's like, "Oh, they're all drunks or all beating each other up,
19:07 "they're all destitute or whatever."
19:09 Obviously there are some serious issues in this.
19:11 There's eating disorder warnings and stuff like that.
19:13 It just felt like an ordinary family.
19:15 I'd seen stuff like this on the telly.
19:17 I'm a big fan of John Sullivan.
19:19 I mean, only Fools and Horses was...
19:21 I knew people like that.
19:23 Again, it gets a bit dismissed as, "Oh, it was a funny comedy, Del Boy, blah, blah, blah."
19:27 But certainly those early series of Fools and Horses were quite gritty, actually.
19:31 You watch that and you go, "I know someone like that."
19:34 Unlike EastEnders, where I'd watch EastEnders,
19:37 which is supposed to be this kind of...
19:39 It's a comedy from London.
19:41 And it's like, "I don't know anyone like that in EastEnders.
19:43 "I don't know anyone like that."
19:45 Whereas this, you know, Alison Stepin is kind of playing a version of my mum.
19:49 I was a lot like the Clare Skinner character,
19:52 the one who wanted to get away.
19:54 And the dynamic, this was a huge influence on my writing,
19:57 because I was like, "Oh, I'm allowed to write people like me."
19:59 And that's quite a revelation.
20:01 So not long after this, I wrote my first play,
20:04 which is about all the terrible camping trips my family had taken me on as a child.
20:08 I basically wrote my mum and dad.
20:10 My dad threatened to sue.
20:11 And it got big laughs and people could relate to it.
20:14 I remember when I was at school, I was giving a creative writing assignment,
20:18 and I'd written something that was a bit Blade Runner-y,
20:20 about attack helicopters rescuing someone from a prison.
20:23 And it was all action and adventure.
20:25 And my English teacher going, "Why do you keep writing this American rubbish?"
20:28 And that kind of put me off, but...
20:31 And you hear, "Write what you know."
20:33 And I was like, "Well, I'm a 14-year-old boy who knows nothing about the world.
20:36 "What do I know?"
20:37 When you watch something like this, you think,
20:39 "You can put real people in stories, real people that sound like me."
20:42 So like the Witches of Woodville books, it's set in the Second World War,
20:46 but it's a pub landlord and his daughter.
20:48 There is magic and all the other stuff that I've loved from films and books over the years.
20:53 I'm a big Terry Pratchett fan.
20:54 But the people in the stories feel like real people.
20:57 Yeah, I mean, the first Mike Lee film I think I saw was--
21:00 Well, actually, it was a TV film, Nuts in May.
21:04 Now, when I watched that, and I watched it with my mother,
21:07 and we were convinced that the characters, the actors, didn't know that they were on camera,
21:12 because it felt so naturalistic.
21:14 I remember thinking, "I've never seen anything quite like this."
21:17 When you hear how small scale--
21:18 Because when Mike Lee got the Oscar nomination for Secrets and Lies,
21:22 he didn't change his way of doing films.
21:24 It's just that something he did clicked more with what Hollywood want.
21:27 But there's something so authentic about him, and the way that he makes films as well.
21:31 The actors don't even know what's going to happen next in the script.
21:35 Well, Nuts in May, because it was a TV film, I didn't put it on here.
21:38 Nuts in May, again, a huge influence on Unwelcome, actually,
21:42 because there's a bit in Unwelcome--
21:43 which you see in the trailer where Douglas Booth's character breaks down and cries
21:47 because of all this repressed anger and violence.
21:51 And when you see Roger Sloman doing that at the end of Nuts in May as Keith Pratt,
21:56 where he's swinging the branch around, and he's so angry, and he's shaking,
22:00 and he's crying.
22:01 And I've had moments like that where I'm so angry, and I hate--
22:05 because Unwelcome is all about violence and how violence changes us,
22:09 with added goblins.
22:11 So we hadn't seen that in a horror movie before, but I had seen it in Nuts in May.
22:17 And I remember saying to John, the director,
22:19 "I want to take that and put that in the story.
22:21 I've never seen that character in a horror."
22:22 The guy always comes in and saves the day at the end of the day,
22:25 but what if he just crumbles? What if he just melts?
22:28 Very true.
22:29 And Mike Lee, who makes so many films--a bit like Woody Allen in a way as well--
22:34 but making films that are very much of a particular sort of--
22:37 very idiosyncratic, making films about, as you say, often working-class people,
22:42 but there's something very poignant about them.
22:45 I don't know if you've ever met Mike Lee, but are you aware of--
22:48 is he aware of the influence?
22:50 And how big an influence has he had?
22:53 By the sound of it, it's seismic on your own writing and filmmaking.
22:56 I'd love to meet him.
22:57 Funnily enough, I went to see the Spanish horror film The Orphanage,
23:01 and it was at the Curzon or something, and he was in the audience.
23:05 I was like, "It's Mike Lee!" It's the closest I've got to him.
23:08 He seemed to enjoy the film, actually.
23:10 I love his stuff. I watch everything he does.
23:13 But this period is a kind of a gold period for me
23:16 because they just feel like real people.
23:19 It's because he works with these actors, he workshops it,
23:23 he trusts them to create characters,
23:25 and they're drawing from their own experience
23:27 in a way that only actors can do.
23:30 And he's always stayed true to himself in that sense.
23:33 Brilliant stuff. All right, then.
23:34 Well, I'm afraid that that's all the time we have for today.
23:37 Many thanks to Mark Stay for joining us and being such a brilliant guest,
23:40 and many thanks to you all for tuning in.
23:43 Be sure to come back and join us again at the same time next week.
23:46 Until then, that's all from us. Goodbye.
23:50 ( music playing )
23:54 ( music playing )
23:57 (dramatic music)