Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan told Euronews that a road to reconciliation between Armenia and Azerbaijan is possible, but work needs to be done.
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00:00 Prime Minister Pashinyan, thank you very much for coming.
00:03 Thank you very much for having me here in Yerevan.
00:06 Prime Minister, my very first question is,
00:13 the Nagorno-Karabakh has been the stage
00:16 of some of the most violent episodes
00:18 in the South Caucasus' recent history,
00:21 and tensions haven't really gone away
00:23 since the 2020 peace deal.
00:25 To what do you attribute the constant hostility?
00:30 First of all, the document was signed on November 9th, 2020.
00:40 It is not a peace treaty or a peace deal,
00:44 as you said, in its legal sense,
00:46 or not so much the EU as de facto.
00:49 A number of its provisions are gravely, grossly violated.
00:54 I agree with you that it can be,
00:58 and it is the concept of the future peace of architecture.
01:01 But unfortunately, many provisions are regularly violated by Azerbaijan.
01:12 They are currently violated.
01:14 Now you see, you said in your question,
01:22 speaking of Nagorno-Karabakh,
01:25 and everyone understands that,
01:27 but Azerbaijan, for instance,
01:29 continues to claim there is no Nagorno-Karabakh,
01:33 although the November 9th trilateral statement
01:36 defines the existence of Nagorno-Karabakh as an entity.
01:42 And the president of Azerbaijan signed that statement.
01:45 Furthermore, it reads that in Nagorno-Karabakh,
01:54 there is a line of contact,
01:56 and Nagorno-Karabakh has a territory
01:58 that is defined by paragraph 7 of the trilateral statement.
02:03 Moreover, paragraph 7 of the statement provides that refugees
02:14 and internally displaced persons
02:16 shall return to the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh
02:19 and the related districts under the auspices of the UNHCR.
02:24 Unfortunately, to date, Azerbaijan has not secured it,
02:29 and this right has not fulfilled its obligation.
02:34 Moreover, during the war, in a number of villages
02:37 that the Armenian population was forced to flee from,
02:41 they are carrying out construction works,
02:44 and Azerbaijan declares that it will resettle these territories
02:48 with Azerbaijan.
02:50 Azerbaijan declares that it will resettle these territories
02:53 with Azerbaijanis, and all these factors,
02:57 let alone until now, in spite of paragraph 8 of the trilateral statement,
03:03 the prisoners of war, captives, hostages, other detained persons,
03:09 other persons held, have not been returned.
03:15 There have been 33 prisoners,
03:19 and recently two more persons got abducted.
03:24 Now turning to the Lachin corridor,
03:32 which is mentioned in the trilateral statement to which you referred,
03:37 the purpose of which is to secure the territory
03:40 between Nagorno-Karabakh and the Republic of Armenia,
03:44 by signature of the President of Azerbaijan,
03:48 that this corridor must be under the control of Russian peacekeepers.
03:53 The Lachin corridor, by the way, is not just a road,
03:57 I want to draw that to your attention.
04:00 It's a 5 km wide space,
04:03 and it is currently illegally blocked by Azerbaijan.
04:07 We will get to the Lachin corridor later.
04:11 I wanted to ask you about these peace negotiations.
04:16 You have just been back from Brussels,
04:19 where you met the President of Azerbaijan.
04:23 You have been meeting several times under the mediation of the EU as well.
04:28 What is the situation in the region?
04:31 These peace talks have been filling many people with hope
04:37 of lasting peace in this region.
04:41 From what you're saying, we are wrong to be hopeful.
04:45 Can there be peace?
04:48 What can you tell us about what came out of these talks in Brussels?
04:53 How long have you been in Brussels?
04:56 There must be peace.
05:01 This is my belief and my position,
05:04 and this is what I believe in.
05:07 But for this to happen, it's also important for the international community
05:12 to be aware of important nuances,
05:15 to be clear about why there isn't progress at a sufficient pace.
05:19 And to be able to make a decision.
05:22 Let me go back to our penultimate meeting in Brussels
05:26 when European Council President Charles Michel was present
05:30 and myself and the President of Azerbaijan agreed.
05:34 Or rather, we reached an understanding that Armenia and Azerbaijan
05:38 will mutually recognize territories.
05:41 We have been in talks for 29 years.
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27:25 What about the thousands of other buildings around the world?
27:30 How come?
27:32 Everywhere in all places.
27:35 That would be an easy explanation.
27:38 And there are people who are people,
27:41 and there are politicians.
27:44 So it's because of these buildings
27:47 that we are in talks for 29 years.
27:50 And there are people who are people,
27:53 and there are politicians.
27:56 So it's because of these bad politicians
27:59 that they are not allowing these good people
28:02 to get on with their lives, which is by and large true.
28:05 But with one misunderstanding,
28:08 in a democratic society, they might switch places.
28:11 The politician might become a human,
28:14 or the human could become a politician
28:17 but these cycles have been going on for millennia.
28:20 In a way, you mentioned something very important here.
28:31 In a way, there seems to be in this region, again,
28:35 a very particular and tragic cycle
28:38 where the triumph of one side can only be achieved
28:42 through the capitulation of the other side.
28:45 Today I spoke to a young Armenian who told me
28:48 she's a generation of independence,
28:51 and she said back when she was very young,
28:55 there used to be talks mediated, I guess,
28:58 organized by Georgia between Azeri kids and Armenian kids.
29:03 And she says she remembers that very fondly
29:06 because they could actually talk.
29:09 Kids could actually talk.
29:12 Is peace, if it's brought up by politicians signing a peace deal,
29:17 do you think it can be implemented
29:20 in the midst of so much pain and heartbreak?
29:23 Or instead, should it be built from the bottom up?
29:27 Yes, I believe.
29:32 To continue what I said, let me draw your attention to nuance.
29:39 Politicians create nuances.
29:42 They generate the public mood, but they also bear the public mood,
29:45 and they influence the public mood,
29:48 and they are influenced by the public mood.
29:51 It's a very intricate, very complex system.
29:56 But you spoke about young people.
29:59 I do remember in 2018, I proposed that idea,
30:05 and I could see in the social media of Armenians and Azerbaijanis
30:10 on social media, a very engaging,
30:13 a very expressive and aggressive exchange of language.
30:17 And in a public press conference,
30:20 I urged Armenian and Azerbaijani users of social media.
30:24 This was mostly happening on YouTube.
30:27 This is where they encountered one another under a video.
30:32 They would leave comments.
30:35 I said, "OK, we've cursed at each other so much. This is enough."
30:39 We could use this platform for speaking for dialogue
30:44 and not just cursing at each other.
30:47 So I made an appeal,
30:50 but later it turned out that the appeal did not have sufficient results.
30:54 Or maybe we did not follow up on it enough.
31:01 And regarding the war logic, we should never forget.
31:05 Conditionally speaking, the factor of the first blood spilt,
31:11 because whenever blood is spilt, there's a victim, there's a casualty.
31:16 It is a profound social, psychological, political and public moment.
31:29 It's very hard for the public and for the politicians.
31:33 Though in reality there is no such division.
31:41 I reiterate, politicians do influence the public mood,
31:46 but vice versa, they are also influenced by the public mood.
31:50 So it's very hard sometimes to opt for solutions, concessions and decisions,
31:57 which profoundly may be understood
32:00 that those people who died in the past died for no reason.
32:04 That's a problem. Everywhere. Everywhere.
32:14 And it's never the problem of one side,
32:18 because you spoke about the mother of the soldier who died.
32:21 Imagine what a factor it is, such an important factor,
32:24 that in this discussion now, you're bringing it up as something we need to discuss.
32:29 But before that, or after that, even a question may come up.
32:34 If you now make these concessions, or mutual concessions,
32:38 what about our children? What did they die for?
32:42 Nobody has the answer to that question.
32:45 Nobody can ever give the answer to that question.
32:49 And you should know that.
32:52 This question lies on the table of any politician.
32:55 Even when people understand it's important not to have any future casualties,
32:59 they also know they also have to get the answer to the second question.
33:04 What about those who died in the past?
33:07 What did they die for?
33:09 Was it for no reason that sacrifice?
33:13 Well, then again,
33:16 the politicians will be accused of taking those people
33:21 and getting them killed.
33:23 What would then be the purpose, the meaning,
33:27 the mission of all this happening?
33:29 And it's very hard to explain to people that, you know,
33:35 your son or daughter died for future peace.
33:37 How can this be explained to someone?
33:40 How can you die for peace,
33:43 if your whole purpose is peace?
33:46 Does that keep you up at night?
33:48 Do you lose sleep over what happened to your country?
33:52 Obviously and naturally, yes.
33:56 Not that I think about it a lot,
34:00 but it's very hard to set these thoughts aside for a second.
34:05 I think about it a lot.
34:08 I think about it a lot.
34:12 It's very hard to set these thoughts aside for a second
34:15 and then go work on doing your daily job.
34:20 I've got one final question to you, Prime Minister.
34:27 I want to know if you have a message to the other side,
34:35 but not to the political leaders and the leaders and the politicians
34:40 that you meet in these talks, but to the people of Azerbaijan.
34:44 Do you happen to have a message to those who may be watching us right now?
34:48 Well, you know, I think it's not a good genre,
34:54 because when two politicians are speaking with one another,
34:57 it's really the two people speaking,
35:00 because on one side is the person elected by those people,
35:03 and on this side is the person elected by these people.
35:07 So therefore, everything that I said now,
35:10 this is an international platform.
35:13 This is also addressed to that people,
35:16 and if there's anything to communicate,
35:19 I would say what I have been saying from the start.
35:23 Everything I said is also addressed to the Azerbaijani people.
35:27 But in some cases, there are sentences that people normally say
35:33 "Oh, we have long lived here, and we will long be living here."
35:37 I think all the words have already been said.
35:46 By the way, there is perhaps something which I would address equally
35:50 to the public of Armenia and the public of Azerbaijan,
35:54 because the publics of Armenia and Azerbaijan
35:57 both must demand peace from their governments.
36:01 It should be articulated as a public demand,
36:04 and there needs to be peace, flexibility,
36:08 and skill to deliver that requirement.
36:12 Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan,
36:17 thank you very much for speaking to Euronews.
36:20 Thank you.
36:22 Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, thank you very much for speaking to Euronews.
36:25 Thank you.
36:28 Thank you.
36:29 [BLANK_AUDIO]